The Facts About Islam: James White's BLUNDER in Debate with Sheikh Ahmad Mohammed Awal

Thursday 24 June 2010

James White's BLUNDER in Debate with Sheikh Ahmad Mohammed Awal

James R White of Alpha and Omega ministries is lying about the Quran AGAIN....

51 comments:

Anthony Rogers said...: The Arabic word for "Repentance" (tawbah) means "turning," and the intensive word (tawwab) for Allah's forgiveness ("Oft-Returning" or "Ever-Returning") is from the same root.; 24 June 2010 at 20:29
mrsonic said...: "The Arabic word for "Repentance" (tawbah) means "turning," and the intensive word (tawwab) for Allah's forgiveness ("Oft-Returning" or "Ever-Returning") is from the same root. "

so wtf is your point about "is from the same root"? the "sha wa ba" and aramayk "tavaba"

its been used in the torah to mean one who comes back again/ returns

and its bee n used for yhwh. go to messiah truth forum and get "rogered" by those who naild your god.; 25 June 2010 at 04:54
mrsonic said...: i challenge this pauline anthony rogered to discuss the "taeb" in the torah at
http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/forums/1; 25 June 2010 at 05:04
mrsonic said...: in arabic translations of the hebrew torah there is a word in arabic for yhwh. the word is derived from the gha fa ra root. it is ghafuur. meaning to protect.
the word for "helmet" in arabic is "migfaar"
a helmet protects your head. does yhwh wear a helmet ?; 25 June 2010 at 08:07
mrsonic said...: migfaar also derives from the ga fa ra root.; 25 June 2010 at 08:08
mrsonic said...: cross worshippers, one of your fellow cross worshiper says that the depiction of jaysus's crucifixion in the nt is anacoristic bull shite.
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=288694; 25 June 2010 at 08:17
Yahya Snow said...: test; 25 June 2010 at 10:36
mrsonic said...: I asked Yuri Yoseph moderator of messiah truth forums the following ,

what is the word for "returning " in the torah ? is it from a verb root which has the letters shin, vaw, bet?
has the word ever been used for The G-d? "God Returned/TURNED" towards?

reply by Yoseph

"The verb is used on several occasions to indicate that God showed (or didn't show) remorse and changed his mind regarding a previous threat of punishment against people or inhabitants of a city."; 25 June 2010 at 14:06
Anonymous said...: Anthony Rogethers, if by that you mean that Allah repented, there is no such place in the Arabic text where it says God repented. The Arabic used is:

تاب

which means IN CONTEXT: "to turn."

Towards the end of the verse, the Arabic used is

تَّوَّابُ

which means: "ready to pardon , forgiver , forgiving , penitent."

This word describes that God is most forgiving. You seem to be mixing this Arabic word with the word prior to it.

Also, Genesis 6:6 says God repented, so your objection in this allegation against Quran is found in your own Bible. Yet, your hypocrisy continues. Don't throw stones when you live in a glasshouse.; 25 June 2010 at 17:23
Anthony Rogers said...: @ mrsonicthehedgehog,

Before I respond to you and the other anonymous Muslim who commented, I would like to ask if Yahya wants to also provide his comment. Not only because he has failed thus far to rebuke you for your foul-mouth and mockery, something he pretends to be concerned about when he claims others are illicitly engaging in such, but because a game of whack-a-mole is always better when you have more than one or two critters to apply the hammer to.

What will it be, Yahya, do you also disagree with the statement I provided above or have some problem with what you think I am driving at?

And just so I don't leave you guys with nothing to chew on, the statement above that got you, mrsonic, excited enough to come back six times, and which provoked the Anonymous above to say I was mixing up one word with another, comes from Yusuf Ali's commentary on Surah 2:37.

(By the way, maybe you can ask maratsafin if Yusuf Ali was a stupid, racist southerner for me.); 25 June 2010 at 18:56
Anonymous said...: huwa al-tawwabu = Oft-Repenting; 25 June 2010 at 22:26
Sam said...: I am getting sick of you slandering people like White based on your gross lies and outright ignorance of what your false religion actually teaches. You are perhaps one of the most dishonest and repulsive Muslim apologists out there. Your lies and ignorance utterly disgust many people not just myself.

Since you don't have the courage to debate me it seems I am going to need to expose your lies and ignorance here for all to see.

Here is the text in question:

Thereafter Adam received certain words from his Lord, and HE turned towards him (fa-TABA AAalayhi); truly HE TURNS (innahu huwa al-tawwabu), AND IS ALL-COMPASSIONATE (al-raheemu). Arberry

It is clear from the context that IT IS NOT ADAM WHO TURNED but Allah since the text goes on to say that the one who turned is the same one who truly turns (al-tawwab)and IS ALL-COMPASSIONATE (al-raheem). This proves that Allah must be the object of all of the pronouns since no Muslim would dare say that Adam is all-compassionate. This explains why Y. Ali and Hilali-Khan supplied the word Lord whereas Palmer and Sale add the word God since they wanted to highlight the fact that the HE who turned after Adam received certain words is Allah or Adam's Lord:

Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and HIS LORD Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. Y. Ali

Then Adam received from his Lord Words . And HIS LORD pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful. Hilali-Khan

And words of prayer learned Adam from his Lord: and GOD turned to him; for He loveth to turn, the Merciful. Rodwell

And Adam learned words [of prayer] from his Lord, and GOD turned unto him, for he is easy to be reconciled and merciful. Sale

This further explains why all the other translators either capitalize the h, i.e. He, or both the letters h and e:

Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful. Pickthall

Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. Shakir

Then Adam learnt from his Lord certain words of prayer. So HE turned towards him with mercy. Surely HE is Oft-Returning with compassion, and is Merciful. Sher Ali

Then, Adam received from his Lord words, whereby He redeemed him. He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful. Khalifa

Thereafter Adam received certain words from his Lord, and He turned towards him; truly He turns, and is All-compassionate. Arberry

And Adam caught certain words from his Lord, and He turned towards him, for He is the compassionate one easily turned. Palmer

They knew from the context that it was Allah who turned to Adam and wanted to make this point more clear to their readers.

Moreover, this isn't the only text which says that Allah repents. I provided plenty examples in my article: http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/changing_allah.htm

So now that you have been exposed as the one lying and being dishonest are you going to issue an apology to Dr. White? And are you going to debate me on your god praying and worshiping so I can further expose you for all to see and hear?

But you are going to do what you normally do and take the cowardly way out and avoid debating any of us. When you muster some courage and accept my challenge please email me so we can set up a debate.; 25 June 2010 at 22:45
Sam said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 25 June 2010 at 23:05
Sam said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 25 June 2010 at 23:06
Sam said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 25 June 2010 at 23:06
Sam said...: Since Yahya has shown that he is ignorant of the Quran, being illiterate of its context and language, I am going to post verses from my article where the same words taba and tawwab which mean repent/repentance are used for both Allah and his creatures:

Except those who repent (taboo) and make amends and openly declare: To them I repent (atoobu); for I am Oft-Repenting (wa ana al-tawwabu), Most Merciful. S. 2:160

Do they not know that Allah accepts repentance (al-tawbata) from his servants and takes the alms, and that Allah is the Oft-returning (huwa al-tawwabu), the Merciful? S. 9:104

And to the three who were left behind, until the earth became strait to them notwithstanding its spaciousness and their souls were also straightened to them; and they knew it for certain that there was no refuge from Allah but in Him; then He repented (taba) to them that they might repent (liyatooboo); surely Allah is the Oft-repenting (huwa al-tawwabu), the Merciful. S. 9:118

Thus,much like Yahya's false god prays and worships like angels and Muslims do, he also repents and changes his mind like they do!

So White is correct and you are the liar.; 25 June 2010 at 23:09
maratsafin said...: @sam

I have read your article and your posts several times and honestly i still do not understand where you get that Allah prayed to Adam?? seriously is this the level of education they hand out in the southern states?? the sad thing is from your posts it seems you actually believe what you are writing. Why do you want Allah to pray so much?? is it because the lame God yhwh prayed quite a few times? or is it because your earthly God jesus prayed? or that you know your God is so weak he never keeps his promises and gets tired during battle? what is it? jealousy?
seriously sam and the AI team you have to stop living in the southern american bubble not everyone is as dumb as the people you hang out with.; 26 June 2010 at 02:10
thegrandverbalizer19 said...: With the name of God,Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

I just don't understand how this works. If Muslims come along and say that a certain word in Greek or Hebrew means something other than every translation given, and completely ignore the context than we are wrong.

A Christian would ask and rightfully so where is your academic background? What is your depth of knowledge of Greek and Hebrew what are your credentials?

However, a fly by night apologist (not a very good one) comes in here acting like a servant of king Sennacherib and does exactly that and we are supposed to buy it?

No support from Christian or Muslim translations. The servant of Sennacherib has not even the nerve to take a test in the Arabic language though he was challenged to do so on my dime so that serious minded people could take a look at his credentials.

But just like his buddy "Dr" White the hard drive fails at just the right time. Amazing!

White is not fooling anyone when he says, http://aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4006

"For the few who are interested in the brief statement I made (styled a "lie" by the PPO&D, the "promoters of perpetual outrage and dishonesty"---a new term I have quoted for a certain VERY SMALL, very IRRELEVANT, but VERY VOCAL group of Muslim trouble-makers)"

Yeah so small and irrelevant is brother Yahya Snow that you have to dedicate a whole blog post to him? So small and irrelevant that you have to coin a new term PP0 & D.

So small and irrelevant that it gets you up in the middle of the night sweating so that you have to go on bike rides to calm your nerves at 3:30 a.m in the morning.

So small and irrelevant that you get on the phone and call that which is IRRELEVANT to come and show us just how contrived his 'arguments' if you want to call them that can be.

Amazing! Simply amazing!; 26 June 2010 at 05:14
Sam said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 26 June 2010 at 06:15
Sam said...: Granddiarhheaofmouth19, if this isn't the kettle calling the pot black! White was turning your own pathetic arguments against you Muslims, which you can't handle.

For the record it was Awal who claimed Yahweh repented. Not only did White appeal to the Hebrew to show what the word for repent, nacham, means in context HE THEN PROCEEDED TO TURN THE ARGUMENT AGAINST ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER by showing that the Quran itself applies the very same words for repent/repentance to Allah.

Thus, consistency demands that either you are going to have to accept the fact that Allah repents as well, and if so then you must stop being a Muslim since this is one of the reasons used to discredit the Bible. OR, you are going to have to allow for context to define what it means for Yahweh to "repent" much like you would want us to allow you to explain and define what it means for the Quran to say that your god also repents and is the oft-repenting.

Can't have your cake and eat it too, buddy.; 26 June 2010 at 06:21
Sam said...: Maratsafin, I never said Allah PRAYED TO ADAM. So either either you haven't read my article or you are deliberately misrepr And if anyone is lame, it is your idol that worship you called allah and your pagan black stone kissing prophet. Take the advice of your own false prophet and read what he says about insulting the gods worshiped by others (cf. Q. 6:108). BTW, thanks for proving that Yahweh is not your false god allah.; 26 June 2010 at 06:23
Sam said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 26 June 2010 at 06:23
mrsonic said...: ", thanks for proving that Yahweh is not your false god allah"

you pathetic flesh god worshipping gentile. jews don't see Allah as a false god, they see your repenting flesh god as a false god.

http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/3337/t/no-idolatry-in-holy-land-according-to-the-torah.html

Ideally, Eretz Yisraél should be free from all idolatry—which includes chrstianity (but not Islam)—and, God willing, in the time of the King-Mashiyaḥ it will be so. However, until that time, we have to tolerate idol-worshippers in our "midst".

Moreover, God commands us in His Torah to loathe and despise all idol-worshippers (and, again, that includes chrstians)....
פְּסִילֵ֥י אֱלֹֽהֵיהֶ֖ם תִּשְׂרְפ֣וּן בָּאֵ֑שׁ לֹֽא־תַחְמֹד֩ כֶּ֨סֶף וְזָהָ֤ב עֲלֵיהֶם֙ וְלָֽקַחְתָּ֣ לָ֔ךְ פֶּ֚ן תִּוָּקֵ֣שׁ בּ֔וֹ כִּ֧י תֽוֹעֲבַ֛ת יְיָ֥ אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ הֽוּא׃ וְלֹֽא־תָבִ֤יא תֽוֹעֵבָה֙ אֶל־בֵּיתֶ֔ךָ וְהָיִ֥יתָ חֵ֖רֶם כָּמֹ֑הוּ שַׁקֵּ֧ץ ׀ תְּֽשַׁקְּצֶ֛נּוּ וְתַעֵ֥ב ׀ תְּֽתַֽעֲבֶ֖נּוּ כִּי־חֵ֥רֶם הֽוּא׃"Burn the carved statues of their gods in a fire; don't desire the silver or gold that decorates them and take it for yourself in case it entraps you: it is disgusting to Adonai your God. Don't bring anything disgusting like that [i.e. like the precious metals that decorate the gentiles' idols] into your house or you will become ḥérem like them [i.e. like the idol-worshippers] — you are to feel total revulsion and utter disgust for each of them because they are ḥérem." (D'varim 7:25-26)

and I repeat that this includes chrstianity, which IS idolatry (whether chrstians like to admit it or not).

see pagan? The torah G-d calls your religion a herem!; 26 June 2010 at 07:18
mrsonic said...: "Since Yahya has shown that he is ignorant of the Quran, being illiterate of its context and language, I am going to post verses from my article where the same words taba and tawwab which mean repent/repentance are used for both Allah and his creatures:

Except those who repent (taboo) and make amends and openly declare: To them I repent (atoobu); for I am Oft-Repenting (wa ana al-tawwabu), Most Merciful. S. 2:160"

the "taeb" and derivatives from the sha va ba root is USED FOR yhwh and creation in the hb.

why doesn't sham scumoun register on messiah truth forum and discuss the sha va ba root and "taeb" on messiah truh forums? why don't you want the world to see you get bitch slapped in front of hundreds of viewers of that forum?

i will start a thread on "TAABA" on sci . lang , i'm sure yusuf b gursey (non -muslim) and alan (non-muslim) will school you on elementary arabic.; 26 June 2010 at 07:26
thegrandverbalizer19 said...: With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

I am going to ask for the last time.

Sam have you since repented of saying the things you have about Prophet Muhammed (saw)?

If you have changed your tactics and you no longer use filthy language could you please tell me when you apologised for doing such?

Is there a link or just for the record are you willing to tell me that you do not engage in such behavior?

Mrsonic I don't think Yahya has seen your comments yet, surely you can make your case without saying things like, "why don't you want the world to see you get bitch slapped in front of hundreds of viewers of that forum?"

This is also not the adaab that we as Muslims are asked to use.

So I just need to know from Sam if you are no longer using fowl language and if not when you have repented of using it.

I admit I am new to all this and I do not really follow you. I do not mean this as a personal insult but I have also found many of your presentations and arguments on your web site to not really add anything to the Christian-Muslim discourse.

James White turning to you for help shows me one thing, he is getting frustrated.; 26 June 2010 at 08:15
mrsonic said...: "Mrsonic I don't think Yahya has seen your comments yet, surely you can make your case without saying things like, "why don't you want the world to see you get bitch slapped in front of hundreds of viewers of that forum?"

but its true. shamoun has no guts to make his case in front of people who have the language skills, he know he will get bitch slapped.; 26 June 2010 at 08:19
mrsonic said...: respected brother thanks for the naseeha, i will obey the rules. i will show you information without being abusive.; 26 June 2010 at 08:22
mrsonic said...: first the DERIVATIVES FROM THE TA WA BA ROOT IN THE QUR'AAN:

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=twb#(2:160:7); 26 June 2010 at 08:24
mrsonic said...: ", thanks for proving that Yahweh is not your false god allah"

the jewish professor said about YHWH:

http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/3277/t/G-d-and-hasatan.html?page=5

"Adonai is the ONE AND ONLY GOD.... there is NO-ONE else".

What part of אֵין עוֹד ein od—"there is NO-ONE else"—don't you get? D'varim 4:35 actually has an extra word in the Hebrew text (three in English): אֵין עוֹד מִלְּבַדּוֹ ein od mil'vado, "there is no-one else apart from Him". Notice that it doesn't say "no other saviour apart from Him" or "no other god apart from Him"—it says "no-one else". Could God have truthfully said that if, in fact, He had a "son"? You chrstians don't even translate these verses honestly in your "Per-Versions", because the Hebrew text of all three verses I have cited says "Adonai is the God"—i.e., the One and Only God—but christians invariably leave the crucial definite article "the" out of their "translations" and retain only the words "the LORD, He is God", considerably reducing the impact of the statement thereby.

How many MORE times will I (or the others) have to explain this to you before it will finally seep into your thick head? Worship your worthless idols if you must, but do not expect any Jew to join you in your idolatry—idol-worship of any kind disgusts us. It's as simple as that.

IF you call ALLAH a false god, you have also called YHWH A FALSE god, cause jewish concept of G-D and interpretation of the G-d in the torah goes hand in hand with Muslim concept of ALLAH.; 26 June 2010 at 08:37
thegrandverbalizer19 said...: With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

mrsonic most Christians avoid honest and sincere debate with Jews like the plague!

And for the record I also find it a bit shady that Muslims do not include Jews in on debates. This is not a tango it's a three way dance.

I would be interested in seeing more Jewish-Christian-Muslim debate and dialouge.

Truly.; 26 June 2010 at 09:16
maratsafin said...: @sam,man you do not even read what you are posting do you?

this is what you said in your first post "And are you going to debate me on your god praying and worshiping so I can further expose you for all to see and hear"

and then you have the audacity to claim
"Maratsafin, I never said Allah PRAYED TO ADAM" seriously sam I know everyone you associate with is dumb like most southerners are but on the internet you cannot get away with it. But just like your weakling God and those who wrote your fallible book you dont really mean what you say/write do you? keep waiting for the rapture and jebus to come back, what is it now 2010 years? one lame god he not even worth worshipping look at how many times he has broke his promise.Come to Islam tony and sam and you will find a God worthy of worship.Otherwise you are gonna be behind your computers for the rest of your life writing fruitless arguments against Islam with a ever decreasing audience.; 26 June 2010 at 11:17
Sam said...: Grandverbalizerofthemouth, have you read the FACTS about the situation? Have you consulted this article:

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_puberty3.htm

To see it was your fellow Muslim cronies who repeatedly insulted, mocked, blasphemed my God, used foul language against both myself and my beliefs, and then turned against each other in the process? Have you ever confronted them and rebuked them for using such foul language? Have you called them to a higher standard? Or are you another typical Muslim hypocrite who doesn't care when others are insulted and their beliefs mocked and ridiculed so long as others don't treat you the same? In this way you would be imitating Muhammad who didn't like to be insulted or criticized even though he insulted and criticized others.

I am sorry that you can't handle the fact that I gave your Muslim thugs a taste of their own medicine.; 26 June 2010 at 11:47
Sam said...: Let me wuickly address Maratsafin, who is another typical lying and deceptive Muslim like Yahya. I NEVER SAID THAT ALLAH DOESN'T PRAY OR WORSHIP. I CLAIM THAT HE DOES. HOWEVER, YOU CLAIMED THAT I SAID THAT ALLAH PRAYED TO ADAM, SOMETHING I NEVER SAID. THIS IS WHY YOU COULDN'T QUOTE ME SAYING THIS.

So now that I exposed your lies time for you to admit that you were wrong. But admitting you are wrong is impossible for someone like you to do seeing that you are no better than Yahya and a good follower of Muhammad.; 26 June 2010 at 11:50
mrsonic said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 26 June 2010 at 12:23
mrsonic said...: the following discussion forums have been informed about the "taaba" in the Qur'aan:

http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/showthread.php?9935-did-they-literally-become-blind-and-deal

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci.lang/browse_frm/thread/cb4e24fc9572404a?hl=en&scoring=d&; 26 June 2010 at 13:13
mrsonic said...: ", thanks for proving that Yahweh is not your false god allah"

kristian who worship Izrael:
Also I do not worship idols, I do not bow down to graven images. I worship the creator.

http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/3340?page=2

Now, who said anything about "graven images"? Not I, my post made it very clear that your idols are false "gods", not statues. What do I have to say to get it through to your addled brain that an "idol" DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A STATUE? Any "god" other than the God mentioned in the T'nach is an "idol", and your Papa, Junior & Casper ARE NOT the God mentioned in the T'nach. I have explained this to you over and over again—you even acknowledged yourself that your "gods" are not the same as He—so there is no question that you DO worship idols. Yet you continue to deny this self-evident fact: I can only attribute this to a mental aberration on your part. And if you don't understand what that means, it means that you're a bit loopy.; 26 June 2010 at 13:39
mrsonic said...: "To see it was your fellow Muslim cronies who repeatedly insulted, mocked, blasphemed my God..."

blasphemed your god? you filthy mofo you believe god came out of a hole. if jesus was hanging off a cross and bleeding you would do "sunday church" by drinking his blood and worshipp at his broken feet. if moshe heard you say this , he would slaughter you left right and centry, cause pagans like you defile the commandments of the hb.; 26 June 2010 at 14:22
Yahya Snow said...: Grand denounced harsh comments and politely rebuked mrsonic

I agree with this rebuke and the sentiment expressed by grand

mrsonic please comment in a more upright fashion...leave the harsh comments to the hateful types

I'm not going to censor any of the comments...If people want to retrace their comments and remove them on their own accord then they are welcome to do so

I try to remove spam comments which invariably have links to irreligious sites

As for Sam...why is Samshamoun so enthusiastic in defending James white?
Sam, calm down...you are going to do yourself a hernia if you dont calm down bro.
What exactly is your problem, do you dislike scholarship and authorty? I used experts and authorties to prove white was out of his depth and White erm used YOU!!!!

So it is the Sam Shamoun Vs allthe experts...White for some reason chose SamShamoun! :(

As for James White, I will respond to his inconsistency in due course...sadly white has resorted to name calling too... :(

Peace; 26 June 2010 at 14:45
Anonymous said...: as a side note about the debate, shiekh Awal appeals to the likes of this 'authority' for his biblical statements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgpaKkrZex4&feature=related; 26 June 2010 at 16:48
WomanForTruth101 said...: //In this way you would be imitating Muhammad who didn't like to be insulted or criticized even though he insulted and criticized others.//

Uhh whats he talking about? Muhammed (pbuh) always ignored critisism and stones thrown at him.
God protected him from violent haters. He was attacked back then and is attacked today but we know the truth, it will ALWAYS prevail.; 26 June 2010 at 20:02
thegrandverbalizer19 said...: With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

What a difference 24 hours can make.

Sam went from beginning his address to me as:GrandDIARHHEAofmouth19

to Grandverbalizerofthemouth

Mash'Allah! Some improvement. Though one wonders how sincere it is in light of my repeated attempts to ask him if he has had a change of tune.

Now what is the response of a person who is head master of answeringislam.org ? What is the response of a Christian who has his own radio program and whom James White trust?

Again insults aside it is the response one would expect from one's child!

Sue why did you throw the rock at Tommy? Sue, "Because he threw a rock at me first!"

This logic is Old Testament logic.

For Sam Shamoun to appeal to Old Testament logic OVER Christ Jesus is something note worthy.

He shares us with this twice when he says,

"I am sorry that you can't handle the fact that I gave your Muslim thugs a taste of their own medicine."

and when he says,
"To see it was your fellow Muslim cronies who repeatedly insulted, mocked, blasphemed my God, used foul language against both myself and my beliefs, and then turned against each other in the process?"

Notice in both of these paragraphs that Sam does not say they did it FIRST, which would still not make it right.

One wonders why Sam threw Jesus and Paul both under the bus in these encounters?

Matt. 5:38-39 says:

You have heard that it was said, "Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth." 39 But I tell you, "Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right check, turn to him the other also."

It is said to see Sam Shamoun host an article on his web site that besmirches Jesus here:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/pacifism5.htm

Saying that the teaches of Jesus are, "The saying seems so imbalanced and out of touch with reality, as it circulates around the world, out of context and isolated"

Of course Jesus example is ignored and a hermenutical device is employed that allows for Sam Shamoun to go about his buisness.

Even though we read in another passage

Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy,peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

I know Christians. I know Christians who believe I am going to hell and the way they approach me is nothing like the way you approach people Sam.

Maybe the Holy Spirit was present when Sam decided not to use the DIAHREA. Infact when one has a mental image of diahrea spewing forth from a person's mouth this seems more like a demonic machination than something ANY Holy Spirit would inspire.

Yet I did note something. In all that rapid fire response and even the link I was given to. Did anyone notice Sam Shamoun saying 'I repent of using such language against Muslims'?

Did anyone see Sam Shamoun saying well from this day forth I vowel to let the Holy Spirit fill me with his fruits so that I may engage the enemies of Christ with wisdom, love, compassion and patience and refute them with long suffering and intelligent discourse?

Did anyone see that? So Sam I have effectively written you off. Allah-willing there will be a blog entry about you in the future on this. So unlike you I will try and be charitable and give you one more chance.

Do you Sam Shamoun repent of saying the foul things you said about our Prophet Muhammed (saw)? Do you promise not to use such language hinceforth and in the future?

These are very simple straight forward questions.

continued..; 27 June 2010 at 00:01
thegrandverbalizer19 said...: With the name of God, continued from above.

However, as far as Sami Zatari, Osama Abdullah, or MrIslamAnswersback or any of those brothers any abusive language they HAVE USED, ARE USING OR EVER WILL in the future I do condemn it.

By the way as a side it is interesting to observe that Zatari was basically a 17 year old kid at the time. Not to excuse him but for sure he had some maturation to go through.

It's amazing that Christian apologist spend so much time on the internet wrangling and debating with Muslims from the ages of 17-22 who are not scholars or fuqaha but kids who take up comparative religion or polemic as a hobby horse or interest.

However, you would think as I stated above that a Christian a person who pastors over churches who begins prayers with may the Lord Jesus bless us and may his Holy Spirit guide us would stay away from such demonic language.

I don't know how else to call it what it is.

Even if right now I dropped to my knees and accepted that Christ Jesus died for my sins and rose the third day I would be hard pressed to see how the Holy Spirit could inspire someone with images of diahrea spewing from a person's mouth.

Sam I have seen some of your recent videos. Your not looking too healthy. It's up to you the legacy you wish to leave behind on this earth.

A fly by night apologist who had the Paltalk championship belt for trash talking and than had it stripped away only to regain it.

To becoming a desperate 'apologist' who uses the most concocted arguments just to get the notice of some Muslims only to revert to.... "well than let's debate, let's set it up..so I can crush you, refute you, smash you, decimate you, humiliate you," all to the thunderous applause of a few right wing Christians who eat these kind of biscuits breakfast, lunch and dinner?

This is your legacy Sam. We all note that you didn't have a debate partner in Michigan recently though it was advertised for months that you would. I am sure that left you feeling hollow.

That Muslims would debate White, Costa and even Wood but leave you sitting behind a desk some where in Chicago with an aura of self importance must have been an eye opener for you.

Than again some people never learn.; 27 June 2010 at 00:12
maratsafin said...: @shameless sam, you said "I NEVER SAID THAT ALLAH DOESN'T PRAY OR WORSHIP. I CLAIM THAT HE DOES. HOWEVER, YOU CLAIMED THAT I SAID THAT ALLAH PRAYED TO ADAM, SOMETHING I NEVER SAID. THIS IS WHY YOU COULDN'T QUOTE ME SAYING THIS.

So now that I exposed your lies time for you to admit that you were wrong."
hey sam you quoted Surah 2.37 and gave out many translations for it non of which reached your conclusion about Allah swt repenting, sam you didnt expose anyone but yourself,by quoting that particluar surah and verse you were insinuating what I accused you of. Like i said before the reason you get away with this sort of rubbish is because you are surrounded by dumbo's. btw as for intolerance goes your new testament jebus would have loved to have been as intolerant as your other god jehovah but because he was a weakling and couldnt keep any of his promises and had multiple personality disorder he was nailed and killed. why on earth do you worship such a creation? TO MY MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO MAY FIND OFFENSIVE THE ABOVE STATEMENT I AM TRULY SORRY BUT THE ABUSE OUR PROHET (PBUH) AND RELIGION GET FROM THSES IMBECILES I HAVE DECIDED THAT THE NEW TESTAMENT JESUS IS NOT THE SAME AS ISA (A.S) SO AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THIER INSULTING ATTITUDE I WILL DO THE SAME..This goes against the teachings of Islam but there is a tipping point were i personally cannot hold myself back.; 27 June 2010 at 01:56
thegrandverbalizer19 said...: With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

maratsafin said,

"This goes against the teachings of Islam but there is a tipping point were i personally cannot hold myself back."

This is exactly what they(right wing 'Christians') want.

They want Muslims to loose their cool, and show erratic behavior.

I personally believe that recently both Christianity and Islam have lost converts to other side due to the actions and misrepresentation of those adherents of the respective faith traditions.

Muslims who are inconsistent in apologetic, or sanction suicide bombings and attacks upon civilians push people away or out of Islam.

Christians who are inconsistent in apologetic, sanction 'smart' bombings of civilians in Pakistan, or make statements like 'We should bomb Mecca' or simply lie to their congregations go along way in pushing peole away or out of Christianity.

I think we do not help agnostics, truth seekers and/or Muslims and Christians who are brought up with their respective traditions and maybe sitting on the bench when we behave this way.

maratsafin Islam has already won we are not here to prove anything. This is something that Allah promised in the Qur'an.

The biggest enemy to Islam and to us as Muslims has always been internal. Our own personal struggle with our nafsu (ego), and our trying to treat each other in the way that Prophet Muhammed (saw) would have us treat one another.

This is our challenge.; 27 June 2010 at 03:36
mrsonic said...: test; 27 June 2010 at 04:34
mrsonic said...: "TO MY MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO MAY FIND OFFENSIVE THE ABOVE STATEMENT I AM TRULY SORRY BUT THE ABUSE OUR PROHET (PBUH) AND RELIGION GET FROM THSES IMBECILES I HAVE DECIDED THAT THE NEW TESTAMENT JESUS IS NOT THE SAME AS ISA (A.S) SO AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THIER INSULTING ATTITUDE I WILL DO THE SAME.."

The Greek word, ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion), can mean either to “placate or appease” or “to expiate.”

The Greek word occurs 4 times in the New Testament (Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10; Hebrews 2:17). In classical Greek, the word is used to refer to sacrifices which APPEASED the gods.

interesting, isn't it?
we have pagan words in the nt which originially were USED BY PAGANS for thier gods/goddesses.

the pagan christians took the pagan greek ideas a little further.
god SAVED US FROM HIS WRATH by appeasing himself to himself.; 27 June 2010 at 05:10
Anonymous said...: test; 27 June 2010 at 09:20
mirele said...: I think, just to drag this back, that Sam has to prove to us why *his* translation of Surah 2:37 is so much better than the translations of not merely Muslims, not merely people who are obviously educated in Arabic, but also non-Muslims educated in Arabic. Yahya Snow provides nine translations into English, all saying the same thing, and NONE of them saying that Allah repents. (Astaghfiruallah!)

I went and looked at the Quranic Arabic Corpus and found five other places in the Qur'an where this particular word construction is used (l-tawābu). What about the other locations? What about the dozens of other constructions of the three-letter root found in the Qur'an? Which of them use this truly novel interpretation put forward by Sam and grabbed up by James?

I have my suspicions as to why it's so very important that Sam and James prove that Allah repents. It's not merely to show that Allah can change his mind. I think it's also wrapped up in the idea that for sins to be forgiven, a blood sacrifice is necessary. If Adam can ask Allah for forgiveness and Allah grants it, well, that kind of obviates the need for a blood sacrifice, whether it be a bull, goat or human being, right?

This is just a thought I had, and I could be wrong.

In any case, James White, despite all his pretensions, is merely a guy who has some education. He uses what he has specifically in apologetics of all sorts. He's really not expert in any of the religions he debates (to say nothing about Arabic, a decidedly difficult language). He's an expert in preparing for debates by reviewing videos and preparing the arguments he will use to "demolish" his opponents. One month it's Catholicism, the next month it's Islam, the next Arminianism.

Personally, I think debating is a fairly useless endeavor, which no doubt colors my opinion. I don't know of anyone who was persuaded to a particular religious point of view via debate. I'd rather hear someone talk about their beliefs and then the audience ask questions. Just my personal opinion!; 27 June 2010 at 18:32
thegrandverbalizer19 said...: With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

Mirele said,

"Personally, I think debating is a fairly useless endeavor, which no doubt colors my opinion. I don't know of anyone who was persuaded to a particular religious point of view via debate. I'd rather hear someone talk about their beliefs and then the audience ask questions. Just my personal opinion!"

My sentiments exactly!; 28 June 2010 at 01:16
Anonymous said...: According to Hans Wehr's dictionary of modern Arabic (p.99), one of the meanings of "Tawwab" is forgiving. Another meaning is merciful.; 29 June 2010 at 00:32
Anonymous said...: ‘Allahumma-j`alnee min-at-tawwabeena wa-j`alnee min-al-mutatahhireen’ (“Oh Allah, make me among the oft-repenting and among the purified.”); 29 June 2010 at 14:48

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Thursday 24 June 2010

James White's BLUNDER in Debate with Sheikh Ahmad Mohammed Awal

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