We all know Islamophobes can be scary but when they band together the results can be terrifying. Here hundreds of them got together to ultimately hurl abuse and intimidate Muslims who were attending a CHARITY dinner (ICNA Relief 2011) at Yorba Linda, CA.
The usual culprits were involved in sponsoring the rally against Muslims; the Tea Party, ACT! For America, Pam Geller, etc.
Islamophobic Hate Comes to Orange County
Chants of “USA”
Erm, since when was a Muslim charity dinner anti-American? NEVER!
I guess these bigots needed something to chant.
Chants of: “Go back home”
Erm, America is their home. There are millions of Muslims in America. In fact, many are converting to Islam. Notable Muslim scholars/speakers are American converts – Hamza Yusuf, Zaid Shakir, Yusuf Estes, Dr Jerald Dirks, Dr Laurence Brown etc.
In any case, America was built upon immigration – Muslim immigrants (and their children) have as much right to call America their home as ANY other America. Do we forget the Native Americans were butchered to make way for the waves of Western migrants?
“Pure unadulterated evil”
Villa Park Council woman (Deborah Pauly) calls it “pure unadulterated evil”. Since when was a CHARITY event "pure evil"? Talk about hysterical!
Oh she does append it with – “I don’t even care if you think I’m crazy”.
Deborah Pauly inciting violence?
Oh, she “knows quite a few marines who will help these terrorists to an early meeting in Paradise”
Talk about whipping a few hundred bigots up into a frenzy of hatred.
Insulting Prophet Muhammad (p)
One bigot shouts “Muhammad is a child molester”, “pervert”.
Sadly, these folk are fed drivel from the internet. The marriage to Aisha (ra) was only consummated when she had reached mental and physical maturity. The Jesus scholar, Geza Vermes, suggests this type of union was in place at the time of Jesus. I guess bigots and scholarship do not go together. Rather than intimidating Muslim women and kids how about this man opened up a few books and checked the minimum age of marriage in his state a couple of hundred years ago.
“Muhammad was a fraud”
The same bigot yells “Muhammad was a fraud” and “false Prophet”. Muhammad had a chance to become the richest man Arabia (a king) but he declined in favour of his message. He performed healings and many other wondrous signs (miracles) whilst calling people to the worship of God. If you are going to call Muhammad a fraud then you are effectively calling Jesus a fraud too – if you are consistent!
Last I checked, frauds don’t perform miracles and call to the worship of the God of Abraham – Muhammad was NO FRAUD.
Try reading something other than drivel from anti-Muslim websites!
"Stupid terrorist, go home..do you beat up you wife…are you a molester"
This woman goes into overdrive with her bigotry. She equates terrorists with Muslims despite there being FBI stats out there telling us Muslims make up less than 10% of terrorists. All terrorists are not Muslims. In fact, Islam forbids terrorism.
As for beating up wives every night– she has been visiting too many hate sites. Sad.
“Cowards”
One woman is yelling “cowards”. Erm, since when was it brave to bring a bunch of bigots and intimidate families (including girls and boys) of minorities? Who are the real cowards?
“Sex with a nine year old”
Bigots always bring this up to demonise Muslims. It’s been explained a ton of times. Here is the American scholar, Hamza Yusuf speaking on the topic:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/search/label/Aisha
"One nation under God, not Allah"
I’m not kidding, one lady really yelled that!
Allah is God! Check your Arabic Bible and you will see the word for God is Allah. I guess they just don’t educate folk thoroughly in their hate camp.
"Take you Sharia, go home and eat sand"
Eat sand? Sharia? Crikey, talk about all the stereotypes!
Waving American flags
I guess these bigots needed something to wave.
Muhammad and Jesus (p)
Christian Missionary Pastor converts to Islam
Bible: Muslims are blessed
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Original video description from CAIR:
(ANAHEIM, CA, 3/2/11) -- The Greater Los Angeles Area office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-LA) today released a video of a rally organized by anti-Muslim bigots to protest a February fundraising event held by an American Muslim relief group for relief work and charity in the U.S.
A few hundred protesters showed up to the rally, which was sponsored by groups such as: "We Surround Them OC 912" (a local Tea Party group), Rabbi David Eliezrie of Chabad - Yorba Linda, North Orange County Conservative Coalition, ACT! for America, and Pamela Geller (whose group "Stop the Islamization of America" has been designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center).
Elected officials Congressmen Ed Royce and Gary Miller, and Villa Park Councilwoman Deborah Pauly also attended and spoke at the protest rally.
The event -- held at Yorba Linda Community Center, a facility that has been frequented by Muslim families and businesses over the years -- first became a target of anti-Muslim bigots over two of the fundraiser's speakers, who were to speak on the importance of charity in Islam. Initial attempts of some groups to have the Yorba Linda Community Center and the Yorba Linda City Council cancel the fundraising event failed, followed by the protest.
In a statement, CAIR-LA said:
"We support the First Amendment right of protest\eors anywhere in America to voice their concerns, dissent, and even hatred. However, when our nation's foundational values of inclusiveness, pluralism and equality are attacked by some in favor of calls for advocating hate and violence, then all Americans have a responsibility to challenge and expose such bigotry and those who enable it.
"As the video shows, the rhetoric of the protesters became increasingly venomous toward the families and children who came to attend the ICNA Relief fundraising dinner. Protesters shouted invective statements such as "Go home terrorist," "Muhammad is a pervert, Muhammad is a child molester," "Go home and beat your wife, she needs a good beating" at the event-goers.
"Even more disturbing was the participation and encouragement of elected officials in promoting the hateful protest rally. Villa Park Councilwoman, Deborah Pauly, while addressing the crowd at the rally, appeared to threaten Muslim event-goers. Congressman Ed Royce (R-40), in a troubling trend of disparaging Islam and its followers, added fuel to the fire by encouraging protesters to continue on with their hate-mongering. The attendance of Congressman Gary Miller (R-42) was a clear surprise, since he previously has engaged with all constituents, including Muslims, toward a better America.
"We strongly urge all elected officials in attendance to distance themselves from such an exhibition of hate and bigotry. We further ask residents and elected officials of Yorba Linda, Orange County and other parts of our nation to speak out against such hateful rhetoric and the continued Islamophobia that plagues our nation."
Council on American Islamic Relations-Los Angeles (CAIR-LA), Phone: 714-776-1847, Email: info@losangeles.cair.com
ca.cair.com/losangeles
See now we can officially blame Christians for this.
Where's fatman, annymous? I wonder what their psychopathic response will be.
Not surprised if the women in the protest secretly want Muslim men.
Brings tears to my eyes to see the wonderful peaceful protesters. No rocks were thrown, no burning of the Quran, no chants of Death to Islam. No homicide bombers detonating.
Yahya snow I can see why you would be outraged at this video, these peaceful protesters did not act as Muslims. They even let a fully Hijabed Muslima walk through their ranks with out assault.
Now as far as the "CHARITY EVENT" IS CONCERNED. What charity was this raising money for. ISNA's site is vauge, doesn't say.
Was the money going to go to the widows and orphans of Homicide bombings, was the money going to go to support Hamas, and Hezbollah? or was the money going to go strait into the pockets of the ISNA leaders like what happened to ISNA in Canada?Source
Question for the American Muslims. Would you defend to the death the right of these protesters to protest?
Radiacl don't be an idiot. Firsty there's nothing wrong with CAIR or ISNA.
Secondly, you call these peaceful protestors? Seems like threats to me. Insults and harassment is what I saw.
I'm happy no one pulled out a gun, this is quite rare. I've heard ground zero protestors were armed.
It's obvious this Christian Nation is full of hatred.
I think radical is missing the point. The root of these protests are against Muslims and Islam. They don't want Muslims and tell us to go back home, yet at the same time it was these Christians who brutally murdered and raped Aboriginals.
Ali said...
" Firsty there's nothing wrong with CAIR or ISNA."
First CAIR is a UN INDITED CO CONSPIRATOR in the "Holy Land Foundation Trial" that was another Islamic charity organization that was found guilty of supporting terrorism.
As far as ISNA in the USA is concerned I know of know investigations or trouble with them. But I'm sure thats just what the supporters of ISNA in Canada, before they were exposed as being total crooks.
Ali Also said...
"Secondly, you call these peaceful protestors? Seems like threats to me. Insults and harassment is what I saw."
Can you point out one threat in that video? I saw a muslim woman walking through the protesters un accosted. What happens to westen woman in Muslim protests oh they get sexually assaulted. Look what happened to the CBS reporter in Egypt.
I'm sorry if you find people exercising their constitutionaly protected right to freedom of speech, to assemble and to protest as insulting and harasment. But there were no threats, please point one out to me.
Ali Also said...
"I'm happy no one pulled out a gun, this is quite rare. I've heard ground zero protestors were armed.
It's obvious this Christian Nation is full of hatred."
Quite rare? Can you name one instance of a freedom loving patriot pulling a gun or shooting someone at a Anti Islamofascist protest? Where did that ever happen? Do you have any evidence of anyone being armed at the protest against the ground zero mosque?
As far as your comment on "the Christian Nation" you need to get with Yahya Snow and get on the same page, because Yahya says that the west is secular.
Ali Also said...
"I think radical is missing the point. The root of these protests are against Muslims and Islam. They don't want Muslims and tell us to go back home, yet at the same time it was these Christians who brutally murdered and raped Aboriginals."
No I'm not missing the point. yes freedom loving americans do not want to live under Islamofascist oppresion. Yeah people are against that, and against Muslim who suppor this. Nothing got passed me there.
As far as your comment on "Aboriginals" is concerned I don't see what Australians in the 17th century have to with peaceful US protesters in the 21's century?
I again restate my questions, Muslim living in the west would you defend to the death the right of these protesters to protest Islam?
Ibn here.
RadicalIdiot: Brings tears to my eyes to see the wonderful peaceful protesters. No rocks were thrown, no burning of the Quran, no chants of Death to Islam. No homicide bombers detonating.
Are you really that stupid? No sane, rational person will ever consider the kind of hate and harassment documented against the Muslims in the video as an expression of a peaceful protest.
Then again, I am dealing with the Fatman/RadicalIdiot who is probably still recovering from the side effects of the Holy Spirit/Satan enema which include confusing evil for good, and falsehood for truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0FMZiEmM14
AbsoluteIdiot: Can you point out one threat in that video?
Sure. Deborah Pauly said, "I know quite a few marines who would be happy to help these terrorists to an early meeting in paradise.”
So much for loving the enemy!
radical, show me a police report or judge's statement of the arrests or immediate shutdown of isna and cair and its members. the only ones whining are christianofascists who want us Muslims to make our wives submissive and give em house arrest, and at the same time pose nude for biblical attention (i.e carrie prejean). sorry.
i don't know what your chuch taught you but in school we're told to respect everyone regardless of race, gender or religion. its the first thing we learn in kindergarten. unfortunately it all goes to waste. did these hate rally protesters drop out of kindergarten or what??
christianity, never stops amazing.
Ali
I said I am aware of no criminal activity involving ISNA of the US, however I did post a link to a article involving the misdeeds of ISNA in Canada.
As far as CAIR being a Un Indited Co conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation trial, it is well documented, just Google it you will find all the documentation you need.
Now I have another question for IBN and ALi and Yahya, since you think this was a demonstration of hate speech, even though there where no chants of "DEATH TO ISLAM" or "DEATH TO MUSLIMS" would you consider it hate speech when Muslims chant "Death to America, Death to Israel" when Muslim leaders call for "ISRAEL TO BE WIPED OFF THE FACE OF THE MAP"?
When Muslims gather to burn the American or Israeli flag, when Muslim Satalite television produces, directs and sponsors a soap opera on the blood libel and other other vile things? Is this hate speech?
@Ibn
Is this hate speech?
"Then again, I am dealing with the Fatman/RadicalIdiot who is probably still recovering from the side effects of the Holy Spirit/Satan enema which include confusing evil for good, and falsehood for truth. "
@Ali
I guess Ibn missed that kindergarden class too.
"Then again, I am dealing with the Fatman/RadicalIdiot who is probably still recovering from the side effects of the Holy Spirit/Satan enema which include confusing evil for good, and falsehood for truth. "
RadicalBigot: Is this hate speech?
"Then again, I am dealing with the Fatman/RadicalIdiot who is probably still recovering from the side effects of the Holy Spirit/Satan enema which include confusing evil for good, and falsehood for truth. "
Do you know what a red herring is?
@Radical Moderate
I really don't know what to do with you. It has been demonstrably shown that the Trinity is untrue. You seem to be clinging onto fundamentalist Christianity simply out of misguided patriotism/bigotry/culture rather than devotion to the trinity.
Are you seriously telling me you found NOTHING at all which disturbed you in that video? Would you be proud if your son/daughter behaved in such a mindless fasion?
Women and children are entering the building for the charity dinner and the crowd is yelling abuse. It's intimidation!
As for the council woman - that was OTT bordering incitement to murder/violence!
You NEED to drop this anti-muslim stance of yours. Wood/Shamoun/Geller/Spencer/Christian Prince/Usama Dakdok/ABN etc ALL make cash out of it.
Islamophobia is a business. It is not something regular folk devote their lives to!
You seem to have been duped to the extent that you are unwilling to even consider the Truth.
Come on, Radical Moderrate, life is too sort for this. Your bigotry is preventing you from searching the Truth.
Radical, I urge you to become a Muslim and worship our Creator in the way Jesus and all the Prophets did - peace be upon them.
Experience spirituality, come to Islam.
@Yahya Snow
"It has been demonstrably shown that the Trinity is untrue."
When did that ever happen? Actually it has been demonstrably proven that Islam is false.
You asked "Are you seriously telling me you found NOTHING at all which disturbed you in that video?"
I personally would not of been shouting "Mohamed is a pedophile" but at the same time I would not condemn a persons right to do so.
You also said...
Would you be proud if your son/daughter behaved in such a mindless fasion?
First I don't think it was done in a mindless fashion. But yes I would be proud and am proud of my son standing up for the freedom that is afforded to US citizens by the constitution of the United States of America.
You also said...
"Women and children are entering the building for the charity dinner and the crowd is yelling abuse. It's intimidation!"
Were they prevented from entering, did anyone threating to kill them if they entered, did anyone KILL anyone for entering? I saw a woman and her child walk through the protesters and cross the "rope" with out any intimidation, with out any threats, with out even being noticed, and she was wearing a hijab.
You also said...
"As for the council woman - that was OTT bordering incitement to murder/violence!"
Yes she did, she supported killing "TERRORISTS" I support that violence, actually I would rather they be captured alive, and spend the rest of a very very long life in a super max prison. But if they can not be captured I have no problem with someone who wants to die for Allah, someone who "Loves death more then I love life" being united with his true love.
You also said " You NEED to drop this anti-muslim stance of yours. Wood/Shamoun/Geller/Spencer/Christian Prince/Usama Dakdok/ABN etc ALL make cash out of it."
Sir I am Anti Islam to my core, just as I am anti Nazism, Anti Communist, anti Aztech, Anti Cannibal, Anti Serial killer, etc...
On every level Islam is just repulsive to me. I find nothing good in what is evil.
You also said...
"Your bigotry is preventing you from searching the Truth."
Sir I am not the bigot you are the bigot. It is you who has no problem forcing Christians to walk on the side of the street, it is you who has no problem forcing Christians to wear a Yellow Sash, it is you who has no problem forcing Christians to give up their seats to Muslims, it is you who has no problem with Christians being forbidden to build new churches or repair old churches.
Oh and as far as hate speech is concerned.
It is you who support, and look forward to this day when "The rocks and the trees will call out O Muslim there is a Jew hiding behind me come and kill him"
yeah thats hate speech.
LOL i think we angered radical.
radical moderate ,
From you , '..It is you who support, and look forward to this day when "The rocks and the trees will call out O Muslim there is a Jew hiding behind me come and kill him"..'
Err , what about luk19:27 '..But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me..'
With that , you must surely be anti christian as well.
the Daily Mail revealed:
Halal meat is being routinely served at some of Britain’s most popular sporting venues, pubs, schools and hospitals without the public’s knowledge, it has emerged.
All beef, chicken and lamb sold to fans at Wembley Stadium has been secretly prepared in accordance with strict Islamic law.
And hundreds of pubs and restaurants in Britain, as well as top racecourses, schools and hospitals, now only serve chicken that has been ritually slaughtered according to Sharia Law.
...
Rugby fans watching fixtures at Twickenham and horse racing enthusiasts visiting Ascot can only buy halal chicken.
School children across Britain are routinely given halal meat with the only alternative a vegetarian option.
In one London borough, Tower Hamlets, in east London, over 100 schools only use halal meat.
Hospitals including the Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Trust in London and the Mid-Staffordshire NHS Foundation also insist all meat must comply with Sharia law.
And Britain’s biggest hotel and restaurant group Whitbread, which owns the Beefeater and Brewers Fayre chains as well as Costa Coffee, Taybarns and Table Table restaurants has admitted that more than three-quarters of its poultry is halal.
Ibn here.
Fat: Yes she did, she supported killing "TERRORISTS"
You know very well that by terrorists she was referring to the organizers of the charity event as well as the participants. Clearly if Deborah and her bigot brigand considered them to be innocent, they wouldn't be having the protest in the first place. This is bolstered by the fact that it was sponsored by groups that make a living out of demonizing Islam and Muslims like ACT for America and Pamela Geller's SIOA which has recently been categorized by Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group. Yes, a hate group!
@Radical Idiiot
you said , and this made me laugh !
"Sir I am not the bigot you are the bigot. It is you who has no problem forcing Christians to walk on the side of the street, it is you who has no problem forcing Christians to wear a Yellow Sash, it is you who has no problem forcing Christians to give up their seats to Muslims, it is you who has no problem with Christians being forbidden to build new churches or repair old churches.
Oh and as far as hate speech is concerned."
epic lols ! , you just brought every lie CREATED by Christians to condemn the alleged oppression of Christians , lets break this down.
It is you who has no problem forcing Christians to walk on the side of the street
When did that happen ?? Oh you mean the hadith :P ? actually read its context , its about bani qurayza , ahl kitab can actually mean christains and jews or christians only or jews only ,and it only applied during the march for bani qurayza , if you disagree with me , please show me any historical proof of Muslims doing this act.
it is you who has no problem forcing Christians to wear a Yellow Sash
where is that in the Quran ? if some jackass back in the day did that then I condemn this act and its not islamic , I believe everyone here agrees with me.
it is you who has no problem forcing Christians to give up their seats to Muslims
never happened , forged hadith
it is you who has no problem with Christians being forbidden to build new churches or repair old churches
again non Islamic, and this was not the case during the golden age at all.
so whats your point ???
@Fatidiot
The protesters were calling kids terrorists.
More hate from those who are taught to love their enemies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OeQ5dcBltg&feature=ytn:mptnews
First @sam1528 and your mis use and application of Luke 19:27.
If you go to Mathew 13:36-40 Jesus explains the parable of the weeds. In verse 39 Jesus explains "The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels"
So this is about the end of times just like the parable in Luke 19 and what are the harvesters (the angels) going to do at the end of the age "the harvest"
Jesus explains in verse 40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
Turning to Revelations another end times prophesy we read begging in Chapter 6 about the 4 horsemen, their names Conqueror, War, Famine, and Death. These are not Jesus Earthly Christian Followers.
Continuing on in verse 10 we read about the Christian martyrs those that have been slain "They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been."
They are calling out for God to judge the world, for God to avenge their blood, not for God to allow them to avenge their own blood or for God to allow them go go on a murderous rampage, where the trees and the rocks will call out to murder those hiding behind them.
Also notice the response they are told to wait for God's vengence "until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been."
It is Christians who are going to be killed by Godless men like you.
@Sam1528 Part 2
Chapter 6 concludes with Earthquakes,the sun turning black as sack cloth, the moon turning blood red, and "Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
The Day of Gods wrath is about to begin, his judgment is about to be poured out on the earth. But who will be the instruments of his judgment and wrath, MEN? Don't think so lets continue reading.
Chapter 7 The Angles are held back "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."
Chapter 7 Verse 9 "After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:"
So who are the great multitude in white robes?
Verse 14 gives the answer "And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
So the remnant of Israel is marked(those that you Muslims have killed when they were hiding behind rocks and trees), and the Christians are taken up so now it begins.
@Sam1528 Part 3
So now Gods Wrath is poured out.
Chapter 8:5
"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake."
Chapter 8:7 "The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."
Chapter 8:8 "The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."
Chapter 8:10
"he third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."
Chapter 8:12
"The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night."
Four Angels down 3 to go.
Chapter 8:13
"Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”
@Sam1528 Part 4
So as you can see so far it is ANGELS who are delivering GODS WRATH ON THE WICKED. THE CHRISTIANS AND THE REMNANT OF ISRAEL those JEWS THAT MUSLIMS HAVE KILLED are up in heaven watching. But we have 3 more Angels and now begins the 3 WOES.
Chapter 9:1
"The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss."
Chapter 9:4
"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them."
Muslim listen to me, after you have had your fill of your blood lust in Killing Jews, you will pray for death for yourself, you will want to blow your self up but death will not come. NO VIRGINS FOR YOU
The first woe down now we come to the second WOE. Chapter 9:13
"The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number."
Chapter 9:18
"A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths."
This is not man or Christians doing this.
So two thirds of man kind is destroyed, not by Man, but by GOD and His Angles. No Christian involved. But what about the final third of man kind.
HE COMES and HE HARVEST WITH HIS ANGELS FOR THE FIRE AND THE WINE PRESS OF GOD's WRATH
Chapter 14:15
"Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."
Chapter 14:17
"Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia."
radical moderate ,
Is jesus second coming before or in (ie. after) the end of the world?
Quoting john gill commentary :
(1) mat13:40 '..so shall it be IN THE END OF THIS WORLD;
hypocritical and heretical men, and all formal professors, shall be gathered out from among the saints, and the several churches, among whom they have been; and shall be together cast into everlasting burnings, prepared for the devil and his angels, whose children they are..' (http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=013&verse=040)
(2) luk19:29 '..that they are enemies to Christ; and so of all negligent and slothful professors, and ministers of the word, who, when Christ shall come a second time, of which his coming to destroy the Jewish nation was an emblem and pledge, will be punished with everlasting destruction by him..' (http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=019&verse=027)
The 'parable of the weeds explained' in mat13 talks about in (after) the end of the world where you have angels doing the job. However the 'parable of the 10 minas' in luk19 talks about the second coming (ie. before the end of the world) where your so called god , biblical jesus , commands christians to kill non christians.
By your logic , you must surely hate christianity to the core as its evil ... your so called god comes back commanding the wanton killing of non christians.
By the way , in rev6:9-11 , who were the killers of the so called christians saints? The early christians , the so called saints , were killed by the pagan romans (most of them became christians eventually).
Out of the blue , you followed up by stating '..It is Christians who are going to be killed by Godless men like you..'
You are a nutcase. You are not from some mental asylum - are you??
@Sam1528 Part 5
Chapter 15 has Seven Angels with seven plagues and Chapter 16 the seven Angels pour out the seven bowls of Gods wrath. Chapters 17 to 18, deal with the effects of these bowls of wrath, and the fall of Babalon. Again no Christian is used in this, it is all delivered by Angels.
Then finally we read in Chapter 19:11-16.
Christ comes himself to complete and finish Gods wrath. Does he use Christians to deliver the final blow?
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."
Chapter 19 concludes with the Beast and the False prophet and those that follow the false prophet and the beast rising up to wage war against Christ and his HEAVENLY ARMY. The beast and false prophet are captured and thrown into the lake of fire. "The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."
You see it is His Angles that pour out Gods wrath on the world, and it is his angels who harvest for the fire and the winepress of Gods wrath. And finally it is HE who with a sword that comes from his mouth (his word) that destroys the nations, and it is HE who TREADS the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty finally stomping out EVIL.
@Sam1528 Part 6 Conclusion
The last chapters of Revelation deal with Judgment. Satan rises up again one more time, and he and his army are destroyed by fire from heaven. Again no CHRISTIAN is used.
He and his followers are judged and thrown into the lake of fire forever. Then the dead are judged if their name is not found in the book of life, then they are thrown into the lake of fire with the devil.
Chapter 21 a New Heaven and a New Earth is created, 4."He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
chapter 22 Eden is restored, those that follow Christ live forever and ever.
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Muslims do you wash your robe in the Blood of CHRIST? If not you will be the ones on the outside, but hey you will get to kill Jews right so none of this matters to you.
"He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
You see Muslims, God himself provides for our salvation through himself, and he provides for his wrath and vengeance on the wicked and evil. We humans are not the instruments of our salvation and we are not the instruments of Gods Wrath. He provides everything for us.
Yes Jesus come quickly and stamp out Evil for us.
@Sam1528
I understand that this was waisted on you, but I don't think it is to much to ask for you to at least try to read and comprehend what has been written. I know you have a serious reading comprehension problem. But really try to read it and comprehend.
Your question is answered in the 6 Part comment.
The parable of Luke and Matt are talking about the same thing, the second Coming as explained in REV is a series of events, The angels go out with the seven trumpets, and seven woes, then the Seven Bowls of Wrath, then the beast rises up with the false prophets, this all comes after Christians have been persecuted to extinction. Then he comes to finish to complete the job that he started.
No where sir are Christians murdering people, like you have in your end time prophesy. You really look forward to a time when you will kill Jews hiding behind a rock. Sir It is you who deserve to be in a mental institution.
sam1528 Putting aside your miss understanding and miss application of not only the parable in Luke but now John Gills comentary. You have now misapplied what I said and what the book of Rev says in Chapter 6.
You said "y the way , in rev6:9-11 , who were the killers of the so called christians saints? The early christians , the so called saints , were killed by the pagan romans (most of them became christians eventually)."
The first Christians were killed by Godless men, but these first Martyrs are being told during this end times to "wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been."
It is the killing of their brothers and sisters that they are waiting for. These are the ones I was referring to when I said they will be killed by Godless men like you.
Now this is not to say that Muslims are the only Godless people who will be doing the killing. But hey you are a Muslim and you look forward to a time when you can kill jews hiding behind rocks and trees.
Either way I have demonstrated that unlike Godless Muslims who have to kill for their God to not only deliver their gods wrath but also provide the only assured way of salvation to Muslims.
We Christians have a God that SAVES US, IN HIMSELF AND BY HIMSELF, FOR HIMSELF, as well as HE DELIVERS HIS JUSTICE AND WRATH IN HIS SELF BY HIS SELF AND FOR HIS SELF. Christians have a GOD that is worthy of WORSHIP.
Sam1528 I will make this easy for you. The answer to your question is in part 6 of my response.
"He and his followers are judged and thrown into the lake of fire forever. Then the dead are judged if their name is not found in the book of life, then they are thrown into the lake of fire with the devil."
The dead are judged, among those will be as John Gill writes are the hypocrites, the negligent and slothful professors and ministers of Gods word.
In Rev 20 who is doing the judging?
" Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them."
If you are one of these hypocrites you will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil, because Christ does not know you.
But either way how did they get dead, wasn't at the hands of Christians, and who judges them and cast them into the fire none other then Christ and his angels.
Greetings,
This is a question for the webmaster/admin here at thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com.
May I use some of the information from your blog post above if I give a backlink back to this website?
Thanks,
Harry
@Ibn Son of a ?????
First Ibn, your appeal to history "When has this ever happend" is a red hearing, since as we both know there has never been a time in history where Sharia law has been fully implemented. Second where I got my information on how Christians are to be treated is from "Ibn Kathir, and The Reliance on the Traveler, as well as the other three schools of Islamic thought.
They seem to believe in this, why don't you. I guess their all fools and "jackasses." You seem to know Islam better then your own scholars and schools on Islamic Jurisprudence.
BTW, just to let you know you better pray that Islam does not come to a town near you. Becasue for this statement you would be put to death.
"where is that in the Quran ? if some jackass back in the day did that then I condemn this act and its not islamic , I believe everyone here agrees with me.
You must be a Shia, because only a Shia would dare insult the Sahaba that way. There are a lot of Muslims who would want to put you to death for calling Umar bin Al-Khattab a "JACKASS"
To Yahya Snow and the rest of the Muslims on this blog do you agree with IBN that Umar is a JACKASS?
@Ibn Son of a ?????
Here is what Yahya Snow said some time ago to me on the laws of Dihmitude. So you might want to talk to him and convince him he is wrong.
"Being distinguished as non-muslims. Are you for real? Really. Is this such a problem? Your pals on the net make it clear they are non-muslims via their usernames (such as "infidel", "kafir", etc). Brother Jeff, if people know you are a non-Muslim it is not going to be the end of the world. Take a chill pill.
Keeping to the side of the street. Is that so restrictive and so tormenting? If the UK adopted some law which dictates non-christians must use the side of the footpath, I am not going to panic or lose any sleep. You worry too much.
Not being able to build razed buildings? Again, are you serious? Is this a big concer? In any case if you really need a raised building then you will get one. Take a chill pill, brother Jeff. It's hardly worth writing home about.
To ring beels or display crosses. Well, France seems to have banned overtly religious symbols (including the cross, correct me if I'm wrong)...so go and moan at the French. This Sharia is not EVEN affecting you but French law is affecting minoria. You are being inconsistent.
Ringing bells, I grew up near a vicarage (and church) and thus heard the ringing of the bells EVERY Sunday morning. Muslims are not allowed to build minarets in Switzerland? Am I crying about this or losing sleep? No. Muslims (in my country UK) are not allowed to perform the CALL TO PRAYER in the morning or at night (which is equivalent in volume to the ringing of bells). So, Jeff...be consistent and start protesting for the call to prayer.
Really, Jeff..is it the end of the world if you are not allowed to ring your bells in an Islamic theocracy? You can STILL perform your church service. Take a chill pill brother
(same applies for the rest of the points which came with this one)
FINALLY (hoorah, we are almost there...you are almost cured of sleeplessness nights)
New churches? Do you really NEED new churches? You can perform the services in your old churches or at home. Its hardly a thing to panic over. I know you would like to have new churches but why should a theocracy which believes your religion to be false want new churches popping up? "
Yup its no big deal to him to discriminate against people for their religious beliefs.
@Radical Moderate,
Those conditions were not forced by Umar but were indeed what the Christian community pledged!
The real Omarian document is etched in stone in Jerusalem - you will get your dose of equality from that document. Try reading it.
As for Non-muslims dressing dis-similarto Muslims. What's wrong with that? Especially considering the reason behind it was to differentiate between a Muslim soldier and Non-muslim civilian - do remember, Non-muslims are exempt from the army.
Now, I want you to compare your obsession with this passage in Reliance of Traveller with your very real desire to use Iraq as a battle ground to fight Iran.
Oh and you do realise your fellow extremist Christians believe Jesus will kill MUSLIMS during the end times.
Another oh, the man in the protest telling Muslims to "eat sand" is being racist against Middle-Easterners. I guess it never crossed your mind that Jesus (the man you worship) is indeed a Middle Easterner. You agree with such behaviour which insults the man you are worshipping.
Problematic? Just a little?
radical moderate ,
Are you writing to yourself? We don't need a sermon but answers to the questions posted.
For the 2nd time : Is the second coming of jesus before or in (after) the end of days (end of the world) / 'Qiyamah'?
You give verses after verses but you still cannot differentiate the time frame of the second coming. If its before 'end of days' then by your logic , you should hate christianity to the core as your so called god command the wanton killing of non christians.
Explain my misapplication of mat13 and luk19 and its commentaries. You have not define the timeframe of the second coming. You are trying to be deceptive , trying to confuse what will happen before and after 'the end of world'.
Ha ha , its virgins now? Where do you get all this BS? 'Houri' is not a virgin but a creation of Allah in paradise. What they are ... we do not know.
Your logic again , this shows that christions are alot more sex crazed in their outlook of paradise. mat19:29 (niv bible) '..And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life...'. What do you do with 100 fold wives in paradise? You christians have the libido of breeding horses under the influence of ketamine or what?
Killings not done by christians? Are you blind or just plain dumb? The million plus of innocent civilians (women / children) slaughtered in Iraq / Afghanistan were slaughtered by soldiers who are mostly christians.
There you are ... its fun watching you twisting / turning / squirming even being deceptive with your own bible trying to justify your hatred of muslims. You really belong to a mental institution.
Ibn here.
FatFool: First Ibn, your appeal to history "When has this ever happend" is a red hearing, since as we both know there has never been a time in history where Sharia law has been fully implemented. Second where I got my information on how Christians are to be treated is from "Ibn Kathir, and The Reliance on the Traveler, as well as the other three schools of Islamic thought.
I wasn't the Anonymous who questioned you on history. Nevertheless, since you have foolishly decided to mess with me, I will engage you.
For the umpteenth time, Ibn Kathir and the Reliance of the Traveler are not the primary sources of Islam. Reliance of the Traveler isn't even used as a textbook on Shariah in Western universities that are highly regarded for their Islamic studies program, such as McGill, SOAS, Chicago, etc.
In order to see how Christians have fared under Muslim rule, you don't pull a few quotes out of Ibn Kathir or ROT, but look at history. Let's see what Daniel Brown (not the guy who wrote the Da Vinci Code, but a scholar of Islam) writes about early Muslim attitude towards the conquered people:
"No systematic sacking of cities took place, and no destruction of agricultural land occurred. The conquests brought little immediate change to the patterns of religious or communal life. There were no mass or forced conversions. Christian, Jewish, or Zoroastrian communities in Syria and Iraq may have felt threatened, but they continued to THRIVE. New synagogues, churches, and monasteries were still being built into the eighth century, and churches or synagogues were not converted to mosques on any noticeable scale. The first urban mosques were not built until after 690... [According to tradition, Muhammad died in 632. -B.C.]......[P]roduction of wine (forbidden by Islamic law) continued unchanged, and pigs (considered unclean by Muslims) continued to be raised and slaughtered in increasing numbers..."
Fatfool: BTW, just to let you know you better pray that Islam does not come to a town near you. Becasue for this statement you would be put to death.
"where is that in the Quran ? if some jackass back in the day did that then I condemn this act and its not islamic , I believe everyone here agrees with me.
How typical of a bigot to engage in fear mongering and threats!
Ibn here. Where did my response to FatIdiot go?
Ibn Shaitan,
The fact that Western Schools don't use ROT in their Islamic Studies programs should tell us what? Thanks for providing a further example of the modus operandi of Muslims. You are a pretty crafty fellow just like your father; unfortunately, neither of you are crafty enough for those who are aware of your wiles and deceitful scheming.
Anonybigot: The fact that Western Schools don't use ROT in their Islamic Studies programs should tell us what?
It should tell you that your approach to Shariah (and Islam generally) is completely unacademic. Then again, since when have uneducated bigots such as yourself ever taken academia seriously?
Mr Shamoun, assuming that is you - perhaps you popped over to look out for a Sam Shamoun Sunday post.
I've been busy. Sorry. Maybe next week.
Or perhaps you popped over to see Mr Rogers' tome on his personal belief commented upon - I was delayed. Sorry.
But do help yourself and insult a few Muslims while you are here - oh wait...you have already done so. Talk about making yourself feel at home.
I assume it is Mr Shamoun as Mr Shamoun likes to call folk's fathers "devils"
Perhaps its a different fundamentalist/extremist Christian, there are a few of them on the net...
Iron sharpens iron, as one man sharpens another - Proverbs.
@Radical Moderate
Refuted Islam???
I know you have been directed to the posts where the Holy Spirit is shown not to be God. Yet you refuse to admit this.
Oh well.
I hope you can spare a thought for one of the mothers who had to run through the gauntlet of hatred you would allow your kids to partake in:
MOM: ANTI-MUSLIM MOB 'TERRIFIED' MY KIDS - TOP
Justin Elliott, Salon.com, 3/4/11
By now, there's a good chance you've seen a video rocketing around the Web of anti-Muslim protesters screaming at families entering an Islamic charity event in Orange County last month. One of the most striking parts of the scene is protesters continuing to shout "go home" and "Muhammed was a pervert!" even as young children walk by with their parents. [Watch it here.]
On Thursday night, I talked to one of those parents, Orange County resident Nusrap Kureishy, who had to walk through the gauntlet of protesters with her three children. Kureishy, who is originally from India but has lived in the U.S. for many years, has a 10-year-old daughter, a 5-year-old son, and a 2-and-a-half-year-old son. The parking area for the event, which was sponsored by the Islamic Circle of North America [ICNA], was a bit of a walk from the entrance to the community center -- and a valet service hired by ICNA backed out when its employees saw the angry protesters.
Kureishy, who has been involved with ICNA programs for Haiti relief and foster care, described what it was like to walk by the protesters:
"My daughter was so frightened that she just didn't say anything. She was really terrified because she did realize that these people were against us. As soon as we got out of the car, people started taking pictures and started shouting, there was so much noise," she says. "My 2-and-a-half-year-old boy who was sleeping got up and started crying."
Protesters were shouting, "Go back home." Says Kureishy: "I just thought, 'If you belong to America, then we belong to America as much as you do.'"
She describes her daughter as "traumatized." When they got inside, Kureishy had to sit her down and talk to her. "I just said, 'It's OK, and these people are not going to hurt you.'" They put down the blinds inside so the children would not have to see the protesters
sam1528 said...
"radical moderate ,
Are you writing to yourself? We don't need a sermon but answers to the questions posted."
Obviously I am. It's funny when I shared my lengthy response to you with others they all said "Why are you waisting your time on this guy?"
I said "I wrote this for myself since I got to go through the book of Revelation."
You also said...
"For the 2nd time : Is the second coming of jesus before or in (after) the end of days (end of the world) / 'Qiyamah'
What does that have to do with your argument that Jesus is going to order Christians to kill non Christians?
If Jesus second coming is before the end of days, what does it matter since he is not going to order Christians to kill non Christians. If his second coming is after the end of days what does it matter since he is not going to be ordering Christians to kill non Christians.
You are distracted by a point of Christian eschatology, and since you are distracted by this and will not, because you can not demonstrate in the text of Revelation where Jesus is ever going to order Christians to kill non Christians. It is apparent that your argument has been refuted.
So if you want to continue with your argument that Christ is going to order Christians to kill anyone (Like your Allah and Mohamed is going to order you to kill Jews) you must demonstrate from the Book of Revelation.
Any other response will be ignored.
Let me be clear I WILL NOT ANSWER YOUR DISTRACTION. SO please do not repeat over and over again your distraction as it will be ignored.
@Yahya, IBN, and the other Ibn who is not Ibn
I find it interesting that Yahya Snow has no problem with Muslims oppressing and discriminating against others because of thier Religious beliefs. But you two, that is IBN and the other IBN seem to have a problem with it.
To Yahya discrimination, segregation, and oppression is "NO BIG DEAL"
So my question to you two, is why do you deny it? Are you ashamed of what Muslims want to do when in power over non Muslims.
Now to Yahya what did you think of the other Ibn when he insulted the Sahaba, i.e. Umar by calling him a "jackass"?
Also to all three of you, since Sam1528 seems to be to ashamed to answer. Is the order for Muslims to kill Jews hiding behind rocks and trees hate speech?
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , you are indeed wasting your time with your lengthy sermon. Like I said , we don't need a sermon but answers to our questions.
My question has everything to do with your argument. You bring up the book of revelation and mat13 which clearly state of god's judgement after (in) the end of the world. However jesus second coming per luk19 is before the end of the world. You so called god commands christians to kill non christians. You have no problem with it. You are an inconsistent hate monger.
For the 3rd time : Is the second coming of jesus before or in (after) the end of days (end of the world) / 'Qiyamah'
The only one who is providing the distraction is you and only you. You are obfuscating your point as you have not define the timeframe of jesus second coming. This shows that you have no facts .... nothing but trying to BS you way thru.
I am to demonstrate from the book of revelation? The points that you brought up from the book of revelation is before or after (in) the end of days?
You will not answer or you don't have any answers? The latter is the most likely.
By the way , about the hadith of '..Muslims to kill Jews hiding behind rocks and trees hate speech..' , this has been explained by bro TGV19. You have no counter argument but keep repeating it like a broken record. Truly you belong to a mental institution.
Look at Yahya. Does hypocrisy come to mind? He is dripping with it.
Ibn comes here and calls people fatidiot and the like, and Yahya puts his hand over his mouth; someone gives Ibn a taste of his medicine, and all of the sudden Yahya decides to replace his hand with his foot as he tries to "rebuke" someone for returning the favor. In fact, after pretending there is no context to Ibn being called a son of Satan, i.e. his consistent behavior of hatred, which is simply the unrealized expression of a murderous heart, etc., he has no problem bringing up names of Christians he loves to hate and blaming them for calling a spade a spade because slander, false accusations, gossip and the like are Yahya's middle name.
"It is not what goes into a man that defiles him; it is what comes out of him."
"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."
If you really don't like me calling your BROTHER Ibn Shaitan, then tell him to quit acting like his father. Thanks.
@ Anonymous not Ibn Anonymous or Anonymous Ibn but the other Anonymous.
Don't be to hard on the Muslims, its not there fault, look at their standard Mohamed. Their only behaving as he did.
Yahya ever notice no one tells Muslims to act more like Mohamed the way Muslims tell Christians to be more Christ like?
Its because we don't want you to act more Mohamed like, when Muslims do that people have tendency to wind up oppressed, tortured, dead or dying.
I think it is awesome that Yahaya is forced to quote from the bible when it comes to how people should act and behave towards one another. He obviously can not quote from the Quran.
I find it funny that I bring the Mohamed out in the Muslim
@Sam1528 you said... Part 1.
You bring up the book of revelation and mat13 which clearly state of god's judgement after (in) the end of the world.”
Mat 13 is in regards to the Harvest, the good and the bad seed. This is in Rev 14.
In Rev 14 the earth is still there, this is after the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the the three woes, of God's wrath have been poured out on the world, destroying 2/3 of the world population. NO CHRISTIAN USED FOR THIS. The beast and the false prophet rule the earth and the martyrs and the elect of Israel have been taken up.
Three angels come out of heaven and witness to the earth. The first proclaims the gospel to those WHO LIVE ON EARTH, to every nation tribe and language and people.
The second proclaims the destruction of Babylon
The third angel proclaims the destruction to those that have taken the mark of the beast. But then he says in verse 12 “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.” After this a loud voice from heaven calls out “ Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
So the earth still exists, it is not the end, there is even Christians who remain on the earth at this time.
In Rev 14:14 IT”S HARVEST TIME.
Jesus reaps the good seed, with a sharp sickle. Rev 14:14-16.
Now two angels come out of the temple, one with a sharp sickle the other with fire. The angle with the sickle is told to harvest “the cluster of grapes” those grapes are the bad seed, they are thrown into the wine press of Gods wrath, were they are trampled.
But it's not over with yet. Now we have the Seven Bowls of God's wrath, containing the final seven plagues to be poured out on the earth. Rev 15-16. After the seventh bowl has been poured out a loud voice from the throne of GOD calls out “IT IS DONE” The remaining people curse GOD at this moment.
Obviously I am. It's funny when I shared my lengthy response to you with others they all said "Why are you waisting your time on this guy?"
I said "I wrote this for myself since I got to go through the book of Revelation."
OH NO MY FRIEND! I read every word. Thank you for writing that for me, and for all who have eyes to see and ears to hear. You are not wasting time. Bless you Bro.
We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you - Thes 1
In Jesus' name.
@Sam1528 Part 2 and the Final on this, unless you can show me where Christians are Killing anyone either in the harvest Mat 13..Rev 14, or Jesus second coming Luke 19... Rev 19, or Jesus Judging the dead Rev 20.
Chapters 17-18 deal with the angles destroying Babylon. Then we have in Chapter 19 the second coming of Jesus.
“ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:... “
Now notice verse 21 after the beast and false prophet are thrown alive in the pit of fire. We read “The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Can you show me in any of these texts where CHRISTIANS ARE KILLING THE FOLLOWERS OF THE BEAST OR FALSE PROPHET. CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE CHRISTIANS ARE KILLING ANYONE?
Rev 20 has a Angel binding Satan and throwing him in the pit of fire for a thousand years. After the thousand years Satan is let loose on the earth one more time to wage war. He and his army is finally destroyed by fire from HEAVEN. NO CHRISTIAN DOING ANY KILLING.
In verse 11, Jesus Judges the dead, those that are not in the book of life are cast into the fire with the Devil. Again NO CHRISTIAN IS DOING ANY KILLING.
This is the END of the earth as we know it. THIS IS THE “LAST DAY”, Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, and the next chapter a NEW EARTH and NEW HEAVEN ARE CREATED.
So there you have it. Now show me where in any of that are CHRISTIANS BEING ORDERED TO KILL ANYONE? In either the harvest or Jesus second coming, or in Jesus Judging the dead?
Even if I am mistaken on the correlation in the harvest in Mat 13 and Rev 14, and Mat 13 is about the final judgment in Rev 20, you will still have to show were ANY CHRISTIAN OR ORDERED TO KILL ANYONE in His second coming in REV 19 or in the Judging the dead.
So to answer your question again, The reaping and Jesus second comming are before the final end of the world, neither is the "LAST DAY" instead it is two events in a series of events that happen in the LAST DAYS. The Last day is the final day when Jesus Judges the dead and throws death and hades into the lake of fire forever.
But either way there is no CHRISTIAN BEING ORDERED TO KILL ANYONE.
@Radical Moderate,
Please stop insulting the brother of Jesus (Prophet Muhammad , pbut)
He is a mercy to mankind and yes, if Muslims did follow his example, the world would be a better place.
Jesus will follow the sunnah (ways) of Muhammad (pbut) - so you would do well to emulate Jesus (p) and follow Prophet Muhammad (p).
Childish insults will not get you far. Especially considering you had no response to the posts proving the Holy Spirit is not God.
But hey, it's your salvation at stake here.
Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another- Proverbs.
@Yahya Snow
I did not respond to your nonense on the Holy Spirit because I do not want to encourage your Blasphemy. I want no part of that train wreck.
But either way thank you for proving my point. Once again you quote from the Bible and not the Quran. Demonstrating that the bible is SUPERIOR TO YOUR 7th Century Counterfeit.
Anonymous thank you for your kind words I glad to hear the saints are lifted up by the WORD.
@the anonymous who was accusing me of "hypocrisy"
I have stated previously, individuals are responsible for their comments - not me.
Yes I rebuked the commenter who sounded like Mr Shamoun. I regulalrly rebuke him here so I'm bound to rebuke him if he comes over to this ministry shooting his mouth. It's called consistency with eagrds to Mr Shamoun.
In fact, he is trying to improve his behaviour - a result of this blog's criticism. I guess this blog has achieved what you "Holy Spirit inspired" Christians could not. Notice another argument telling you the Holy Spirit is NOT guiding you.
Sometimes I do not rebuke Mr Radical Moderate - he is Christianity's most active apologist - though he goes silent when beliefs concerning the Trinity and the Bible are pressed.
As for your insults - I guess its a case of resorting to insult when you have no arguments - yes you (I assume Sam or one of the aominions) are apologetically bankrupt.
Up your level of scholarship - insults and degradation will only get you so far.
I KNOW this site has put the frighteners on some of your apologists. To name one, Mr Wood. He is having kittens as to the refutations related to his bogus argumentation and lies.
So much so that he removes links to pages which have his more recent episodes of deception/bad argumentation documented.
I EXPECT you folk to resort to insults, after all, you are apologetically bankrupt.
If you can't beat them, JOIN them. I invite you to Islam - you will have better arguments and better apologists, if you do make the step towards the TRUTH.
Oh, notice the allowance of free speech on a MUSLIM blog whilst your colleagues shudder at the thought of allowing such on their sites/blogs - got something to hide, fellas?
Peace
Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another - Proverbs
Ahh Radical,
What am I going to do with you?
The same old stuff - you are like a stuck record.
I can quote from the Quran but choose to quote from the Bible as I am addressing CHRISTIANS. Thus in order to get them to rethink their ideas the use of a book which they believe to be divinely inspired makes LOGICAL sense.
Think about it.
In England I have seen campaigns to promote good dental practice amongst children in Muslim areas - they use the Ahadith of the Prophet Muhammad (p)) to get the message over to the kids.
PLEASE read Mark 3:35 and realise the brothers of Jesus and sisters are indeed Muslims.
Woudl you like to become a brother of Jesus? If yes, please become a Muslim.
@Yahya Snow this is what happens when Muslims act more like Mohamed.
"Ethiopia (MNN) ― A mob of Muslim extremists overpowered police to get to Christians sharing the Gospel.
Voice of the Martyrs, Canada recently reported that 17 students were on a short-term mission trip at the tail end of February in Oma village, Ethiopia. The students, from Meda Welabu University, went to the Muslim village distributing Bibles and striking up conversations with villagers.
As students were handing out Gospels and talking to Muslims, one of the villagers began to argue with the believers. His rage became so overwhelming that a mob began to attack the young students.
The mob of Muslim extremists began shouting "Allah Akbar," which means in English, "Allah is greater." They beat the students with rods and threw stones at them. Government militia attempted to protect the students but were overpowered by the mob.
The mob attempted to set the Christians' car on fire, but failed, and the students were able to get away."
Source
And from Egypt after the Islamic Revolution that just took place.
"Copts in Egypt are begging for Egyptian Armed Forces protection Saturday after a Muslim mob of several thousand attacked their church in the village of Soul, about 30 kilometers from Cairo, Friday night...According to a report from the Washington-based Coptic American Friendship Association, the mob, chanting “Allahu Akbar,” pulled down the church’s cross and detonated a handful of gas cylinders inside the structure. The ensuing fire destroyed the church and all its contents, including the sacred relics of centuries-old saints."
Source
Now compare that to the "PEACEFUL PROTEST" in Cali. No mosques were burned, no Muslims were attacked, no woman were Sexually assaulted as what happens with the CBS correspond during the celebrations after the success of the Islamic Revolution in Egypt.
Yeah we don't want you Muslims to act more like Mohamed.
@Radical Moderate,
Please stop using the misery of sectarian violence in Africa to promote your anti-islam agenda.
If you were honest and/or thorough you would mention this type of violence is a TWO WAY battle where BOTH sides rgularly attack each other and pass the attacks off as retaliation.
The same happens in Nigeria. Go to Ali's blog and you will see this type of violence recorded - but CHRISTIAN on Muslim violence.
That was a response to the general opy and paste jobs which concern Muslims in Africa which you and your colleagues take advantage of - anything to promote your anti-muslim stance, eh?
As for the specific copy and paste - I dont agree with the Muslims who attacked the students. If I was there I would just converse with the Christian missionaries and show the errors in the Bible and point them to references to the Prophet Muhammad as well as explaining the Trinity and Incarnation as later constructs which were not samctioned by Jesus (p).
I would have invited them to a relationship with God by asking them to worship in the same way as Jesus did - in the manner of a Muslim.
I would also ask rhetorical questions such as why does Jesus have brothers and sisters (Mark 3:35) - surely God has NO brothers and sisters.
Is the Holy Spirit the God of Jesus? A tough question which your friend attempted to answer but wound up refuting the "divinity" of the Holy Spirit and ultimately the concept of the Trinity was shown to be incorrect.
I would ask them why do you trust these Gospels despite NOT knowing their authoship - would you trust a book on English Law if the authorship was unknown?
I would ask why did Jesus never explain the Trinity or even teach it - surely if he really wanted us to believe in such a new teaching he would have explained it.
I would as them why their earliest Gospel, Mark, has Jesus depicted as a man (Prophet) and NOT as a god (or as you claim a "godman") - surely if Mark wanted you to believe Jesus was a godman then he would have depicted Jesus as such...
I would also ask them why was Jesus praying to God? That shows Jesus has a God, thus is not God.
Plently of toher questions coul be posed, but that batch would get my preaching of the Truth going.
PS. I do not appreciate these attempts to get Shias and Sunnis to conflict. I am NOT interested in that. STOP being insincere - whoever you are!
Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another - Proverbs
@Yahya Snow
You said...
"Please stop using the misery of sectarian violence in Africa to promote your anti-islam agenda."
WOW so Muslilms acting like your prophet and the Sahaba is sectarian Violence. Kind of funny how that "sectarian violence" only happens in countries with a majority Muslim Population.
You also said...
"If you were honest and/or thorough you would mention this type of violence is a TWO WAY battle where BOTH sides rgularly attack each other and pass the attacks off as retaliation."
Two way Battle? Christians handing out BIBLES is a ATTACK! Christians sharing the Gospel warrants a attack with rods, and stones?
What about in Egypt when did Christians attack any Muslim in Egypt. I guess just existing is a BATTLE for Christians in Egypt. What ever happened to Muslims protecting Christians against MUSLIMS? Since the Islamic Revolution in Egypt this year things have gotten worse for Christians not better.
As far as Nigeria I would much rather the opposition to Islamic Tyranny be like that of the peaceful protest in Cali, however they are dealing with Muslims who have the majority. So I applaued the Christians for finally standing up for themselves against Islamic tyranny and Muslims acting like their prophet and the Sahaba.
You said and this is the funniest part.
"If I was there I would just converse with the Christian missionaries"
This comes from a man who thinks its "no big deal" for Muslism to discriminate and oppress Christians under Sharia Law.
So you would just converse with Christians being attacked by a angry MUSLIM MOB, you would ask them all those questions as they are being struck with rods and stones.
You also said...
"I would have invited them to a relationship with God"
This is interesting, a relationship with GOD. What kind of relationship with God do Muslims have? Is it that of a loving father to a child? Is it that of a loving bride groom to his bride?
Is there even such a thing in Islam as having a relationship with ALLAH?
@Yahya Snow
I have one more question for you. If the Muslim End of Days was to happen in your life time. And the trees and rocks were to call out to you "O Muslim there is a Jew hiding behind me come and kill him"
Would you talk to the Jew before you killed him?
@Yahya Snow
I have one more question for you. If the Muslim End of Days was to happen in your life time. And the trees and rocks were to call out to you "O Muslim there is a Jew hiding behind me come and kill him"
Would you talk to the Jew before you killed him?
radical moderate ,
Nice try in obfuscation ... not good enough. I can safely conclude that the bible / christian theology is not clear about the second coming of your so called god.
My question for the 4th time. When is the second coming of jesus?
(a) before 'end of days'
(b) during 'end of days'
(c) after 'end of days'
(d) don't know
A multiple choice question for you.
From you - rev19:11-16. You argued that its the so called angels doing the killing. There is no such statement in the verses that points to such. The key is verse 15 '..Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter..'
Your so called god - comes , kills people and become a ruthless ruler / king. Who does he rule? Angels? No , as angels are obedient beings , already his subjects. The answer is of course mankind as it states 'striking down nations..he will rule them..'. Tie this with luk19:27 from the parable of the 10 minas , one of the points in context of the parable is that the people who reject your so called god will face his wrath.
Harmonising between rev19:15 & luk19:27. Your so called god being a ruthless king extract his vengence on the non christians by commanding his subjects (ie christians)to kill the people who reject him as god (per the christian theology) therefore the statement of luke19:27 ,'..But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me..'
Simple as that. Why do you go off tangent and start blabbering about horses , seals , saints etc?
Per your logic , you must truly hate christianity. Yes??
By the way , from you '..HE DELIVERS HIS JUSTICE AND WRATH IN HIS SELF BY HIS SELF AND FOR HIS SELF..'. You mean to tell me that your so called god died for your sins? joh17:4 '..I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do..'. His work is finished , completed , finito , done. Dying for your sins is not in his job description.
Sam1528
I don't know where you live, but if it is in the west, please get help on your reading comprehension problem. How you could read what I last posted and still ask the same lame question you are asking is beyond me.
Here let me copy and paste from my last post.
FROM THE CONCLUSION IN PART 2.
"So to answer your question again, The reaping and Jesus second coming are before the final end of the world, neither is the "LAST DAY" instead it is two events in a series of events that happen in the LAST DAYS. The Last day is the final day when Jesus Judges the dead and throws death and hades into the lake of fire forever.
Seriously man get that problem looked at you can get help for it. There are exercises, and possibly even medication you can take.
radical moderate,
TQ , at long last you summoned enough courage to answer the question. Therefore it is correct that luk19:27 , your so called god commands christians to kill non christians as he is now the ruthless king who has struck down nations with a sword from his mouth and ruling them with 'an iron scepter' per rev19:15 in his second coming.
By your logic , do you now hate christianity? You surely must.
If this is '..before the final end of the world..' (per your words)- why are you blabbering about angels throwing people into the lake of fire upon god's judgement? That is after 'the end of world'. There is no more killing as the torture is for eternity - the person does not die.
However I am talking about your so called god commanding christians to kill non christians per luk19:27 which you admit is before 'the end of world'. Its about time you use your brains instead of your knees to think.
By the way when we talk about 'god's judgement' , who are we referring to? 'father' or 'son' or 'holy spirit' or 'trinity'?
You have time and time again confirm that you are a nutcase who have no problems in trying to twist your own scripture for your argument. Are you really christian?
Radical Moderate,
Thanks for asking and searching for the truth.
The slave/son argument is an emotional one which I am planning to discuss using some Pastor Joseph and/or Antonio Santana footage.
I would ask you what does the term "son of God" refer to? The answer lies in the work of etzger and Coogan - we realise it simply refers to a close relationship with God.
Now, for the believer (Muslim) God is closer to the believer than his/her own jugular vein. Now, that is what you call a close relationship with God - thus the close relationship to God is very much with the Muslim.
Sadly, Christian missionaries present this "son/slave" argument as an emotional sway, without even knowing the meaning of the terms they are using!
As for your question concerning the Jews in the end Times. This will be in a context of a war.
BTW, there is no intent to blaspheme and insult you/your faith in the posts questioning the Christian view of the holy Spirit.
Peace
Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another
@Yahya
What does this mean to you?
"Now, for the believer (Muslim) God is closer to the believer than his/her own jugular vein."
Can you elaborate on this?
Also your answer on killing the Jews hiding behind rocks and trees was not the answer to the question. So I will repeat the question.
Would you first talk to the Jews before you killed them?
@Radical Modertae,
Thanks for the questions, may Allah guide you to the Truth.
The Islamic belief you are asking concerning has been interpreted as a spiritual closeness between God and the believer by spiritualists.Though there is an interpretation of it referencing God's knowledge of the creation
You are interested in stuff pertaining to the military - would you seek dialogue whilst in a war situation?
@Yahya Snow
You said...
"The Islamic belief you are asking concerning has been interpreted as a spiritual closeness between God and the believer by spiritualists.Though there is an interpretation of it referencing God's knowledge of the creation "
I'm wondering if you can site those "SPIRITUALISTS", I didn't know you were a SUFI.
But putting that aside for a second lets take a look at the verse you misquoted.
Surah 50:16
"It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein." Yousef ALi
So its not the believers it is Mankind. Not only that but this verse seems to be talking about Allah's knowlege of the evil desires of mans thoughts. Also notice it says WE. Ibn Kathir and others interpret this not as ALLAH being as close as man's jugular vein but instead it is Allah's Angels who are at the throat of Men.
Ibn Kathir has these words
"but these two creeds are false according to the consensus of Muslims." Referring to the creeds that this is Allahs Knowledge, as well as his incarnation. SO IT IS THE CONSENSUS that this is Angles and not Allah who is at man's throat.
So its not just "Muslims" who have as you call it a close relationship with Allah or his angels. Allah or his angles are at the throats of all Men.
Also this verse is interpreted as saying to Muslims that they will be forgiven what ever it is they are thinking as long as they don't utter it or act on it.
Again Ibn Kathir
"Verily, Allah the Exalted has forgiven my Ummah (Muslims) for what they talk (think) to themselves about, as long as they do not utter or implement it."
Also in the explanations I have read, I find this quote. "...the devil touches them, for the devil is as close to them as the blood that runs in their veins" Again Ibn Kathir.
So it seems that the Devil is closer to you then Allah's angles. Since the jugular vein carry's the blood that the devil is closer to.
So thanks but no thanks. I will keep my relationship with the one true living God, one of a loving father to a child or a bride groom towards his bride. You keep your... well what ever it is you have with Allah or his angles being at your throat. Something that all man kind seems to have, as well as your relationship with the devil since he is closer then allah or at least just as close since he is closer then your own blood.
@Yahya
You said...
"You are interested in stuff pertaining to the military - would you seek dialogue whilst in a war situation?"
These Jews your going to kill, would you ask them to surrender?
radical moderate ,
Oops ... not even a peep from our resident nutcase .... radical moderate (formerly known as 'thefatman' ... taken after the name of one the first atomic bombs that killed over a hundred thousand people).
The question again. Per your logic , do you hate christianity? luk19:27 , your so called god commands christians to kill non christians.
@Yahya
Sorry forgot to link my source
Ibn Kathir
Sam1528
Really man get help for that reading comprehension problem.
Show me where in Jesus second coming in Rev that Christians are going to be killing anyone?
If you can not do that then just admit you were wrong on your mis use and mis interpretation of Luke 19.
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , go back to my previous 2 posts. You cannot even comment nor provide any credible counter argument.
No peep from you therefore we can conclude that you also hate christianity as your so called god commands christians to kill non christians.
Sam1528
Really man get help for that reading comprehension problem.
Show me where in Jesus second coming in Rev that Christians are going to be killing anyone?
If you can not do that then just admit you were wrong on your mis use and mis interpretation of Luke 19.
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , its now just from the book of revelations about christians killing others?
Told you that you are nuts. A deceptive nutcase. Previously you said that the bible explains itself , ie. one verse explains another.
Therefore the second coming in rev19 , your so called god come to strike down nations with a sword from his mouth and rule them with 'an iron scepter'. Thus anyone who does not believe in him nor disregard him as 'king' will face his wrath. His wrath per luk19:27 in which he commands christians to kill non christians in front of him.
Previously you said that the bible explains itself but now you want to confine yourself to just rev. However you drag the issue from luk19:27 to matt13 then to rev. Ha ha .... you are a nutcase , a deceptive nutcase. Nice try.
Do you hate christianity? The so called god , biblical jesus commands christians to kill non christians.
Sam1528
Really man get help for that reading comprehension problem.
Show me where in Jesus second coming in Rev that Christians are going to be killing anyone?
If you can not do that then just admit you were wrong on your mis use and mis interpretation of Luke 19.
@Sam1528
You said...
"Previously you said that the bible explains itself , ie. one verse explains another."
Yes one verse explains another, thats why I went to Mathew, were it explains that the servants are angles.
You said numerous times and made a real big deal about it in a few post's that Luke 19 is about Jesus second coming.
I went to Revelation that details among other tings Jesus second coming.
In Rev 19 Jesus comes and kills all the Godless, God cursing people with his WORD.
"The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh"
IT IS JESUS WHO IS DOING THE KILLING WITH HIS WORD. SO CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE ANY CHRISTIAN IS ORDERED TO OR IS KILLING ANYONE IN REV 19 or IN ANY CHAPTER OF REV 19?
It is you who is the NUT CASE lol
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , you have no defense except repeating your BS. You don't seem to be able to address luk19:27 where your so called god commands christians to kill non christians.
First you ran to mat13. However the 'The Parable of the Weeds Explained' talks about 'at the end of the age' but you confirmed that the second coming is 'before the end of age'. Then you started blabbering about about blowing of trumpets , opening of seals and lastly about rev19 where your so called god comes , kills people with a sword from his mouth and rule 'with an iron scepter' (ie. a ruthless king) in his second coming.
You attested
(1) the bible explains itself
(2) your so called god , biblical jesus second coming is before the end of world.
If we tie rev19 with luk19 (both in context about the second coming) we have the following : Your so called god , biblical jesus , in his second coming , before the end of world per your confirmation :
(1) Personally kills people with a sword
(2) Rule the nations (ie. mankind) and the non christians will face his wrath. Per luk19:27 and john gill's commentary , his wrath is delivered by commanding christians to kill non christians in front of him.
Why are you now only confining yourself to rev 19 whereas you already confirmed that the bible explains itself. Therefore luk19 and rev19 explain one another.
You are squirming trying BS your way out. Again , tying rev19 and luk19 , you must really hate christianity as your so called god , biblical jesus , commands christians to kill non christians in front of him.
Only nutcases like you are trying to defend the indefensible.
@Sam1528
This is getting sad, please get help for your reading comprehension problem.
First the correlation between Mathew and Luke is on who are the servants, in other words who are the ones who carry out the actions and the commands.
In Rev; all that talk of the seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls of Gods wrath. It is Angles (his servants) who delver these against the sinful world, on the instructions of God, not Christians.
Second, John Gills commentary does not say Christians are going to kill anyone. Lets take a look at what John Gill wrote from the website you posted.
"will be punished with everlasting destruction by him; and then all other enemies will be slain and destroyed, sin, Satan, the world, and death: of the first of these the Jews say"
Who is going to be delivering the punishment and everlasting destruction? It is HIM not Christians.
Also notice it says "all the other enemies will be slain.
Tell me how is a Christian going to kill Death, Satan, and Sin?
Also John Gill quotes the Jewish Talmud.
"`in the time to come the holy, blessed God, will bring forth the evil imagination (or corruption of nature), (wjxwvw) , "and slay it before" the righteous, and the wicked.''
So tell me how are Christians going to kill the evil imagination i.e. corruption of nature?
Now we go to Rev 19 which details Jesus second coming. Jesus is the one delivering the punishment with the sword of his mouth and everlasting destruction, not Christians. Since you don't seem to understand what a sword of the mouth is, it is his WORD. By his word he will slay god's enemies which include, sin, death, Satan, the evil imagination (corruptible nature).
Sorry your God can not do that, he needs his creatures like you to go out and KILL Jews.
So now you have to show me where John Gill said Christians are going to be killing anyone, including death, sin, satan, the corruptible nature etc...?
And I'm still waiting for you to show me in Rev 19 where Jesus commands Christians to kill anyone or where Christians are killing anyone since Jesus has already destroyed Gods enemies, as John Gill says "Sin, Death, Satan, the evil imagination..."
Can you do that or not? Yes or no?
Let me repeat here are the questions you must answer.
1. Where in John Gills commentary does it say Christians are going to be Killing anyone?
2. How is a Christian going to kill Death, Satan, and Sin?
3. How are Christians going to kill the evil imagination i.e. corruption of nature?
4. Where in Rev 19 does it say Christians are going to be doing any of this killing?
5. Finally who are Christians going to be killing, since Jesus has killed destroyed them all with his WORD? In other words who will be left after Jesus destroy's them all.
Since you can not answer these questions, because you wont be able to answer these questions. I think we are finally done here.
@Sam1528
One more thing, I found your comments on God interesting.
"as he is now the ruthless king who has struck down nations with a sword from his mouth and ruling them with 'an iron scepter'"
you also said he was a tyrant etc...
So your god is not going to be a ruthless tyrant, he is not going to Rule over the sinful man with a Iron Rod, etc... He is not going to destroy them, etc...
Really man what kind of God do you worship.
@Radical - I find it interesting that you're willing to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to show what you believe certain passages of the bible mean, but are not willing to allow Muslims to do the same.
The Bible commands us to kill witches, kill homosexuals, kill people we think are false prophets, and so on... this is all clearly laid out in Leviticus.
As far as being proud of the protestors portrayed here. Really? Someone shouted out that they should go home and beat their wife b/c their wife could use a good beating. What would you do if someone told you that your wife deserved a good beating? Is that acceptable behavior?
@Uncle Tom
First can you demonstrate my "mental gymnastics" in my exogeeting of the text of Luke, Matt, and Revelation? I find it interesting I go by what the text says, and Sam1528 has to make up his own interpretation, he even made up his own interpretation of the commentary by John Gill on the passage in question in Luke.
Second I AM A CHRISTIAN. I AM UNDER THE NEW COVENANT, NOT THE OLD COVENANT. Please try to understand what that means in regards to the judgment texts in the OT. Thank you.
@Radical -
By mental gymnastics, I mean when presented a quote from Luke, you start jumping all over the bible to string together an argument to support your position. Which is fine, but then you have to allow Muslims to do the same with their scriptures. You can't just quote a verse from the Koran without performing the same exegesis. I suspect you have no interest in doing so -- you have a conclusion and you search for evidence to support that conclusion.
Second, Christ specifically said that he did not come to abolish Moses law but to fulfill it. I'm not saying you should now start stoning you neighbor who is wearing clothes made from two different types of cloth -- but to point out that our bible contains the same kind of language that is filled with the Koran. Furthermore, the Koran states that Jesus is a prophet of God and that his words are to be obeyed as well.
Finally, you didn't answer my other question -- if someone told you to go home and beat your wife b/c she needed a good beating, would you consider that a peaceful message?
@Uncle Tom
First what you call "Mental Gymnastics" is called harmonization. Scripture interprets scripture and verse interprets verse.
You also said...
"Moses law but to fulfill it"
Learn and understand what that means.
Yous said...
" but then you have to allow Muslims to do the same with their scriptures"
When have I not done that?
You then asked this question.
"if someone told you to go home and beat your wife b/c she needed a good beating, would you consider that a peaceful message?"
Sounds like that question comes from the current husband of my X. To which i would reply "She's your problem now".
Now with that said if I saw a Muslim husband beating his Muslim wife, I would certainly respect her religion.
@Radical -
Did you know that the first rule of the Tautology Club is the first rule of the Tautology Club?
Regarding the Old Testament, you could do better you know. It seems to be rather lazy to just say learn, but then offer nothing. I'll do some of the work for you though -- it appears to me that you subscribe to New Covenant Theology, which holds that the Old Covenenant has been completely replaced been completely replaced by the New Covenant. This is a relatively new theology and hardly universal in it's acceptance. If that's what you choose to believe, that's fine, but it's still just mental gymnastics -- "Let me take this scripture here, and use it to interpret this scripture here (but ignore this other scripture over here) and voila... see, my own innate beliefs are justified!"
I'm still perplexed by your apparent dodging of the question -- Is telling someone to go home and give their wife a deserved beating a peaceful message? Yes or no will suffice.
I find it very odd that you think screaming at people and insulting them to be peaceful. To me it appears that they're using Saul Alinsky's tactics, which is designed to make people angry and upset and incite them to make a mistake.
Finally, let's say Christ is watching this message board, do you think He'd be happy with the way you're posting on this board? Your method seems to be attack, ridicule and belittle. Take your example of deciding to oh so "cleverly" change my handle to Uncle Tom -- is that a good way to deliver your message, or is it one in which you are trying to show disrespect?
UncleTom
you said...
"is that a good way to deliver your message, or is it one in which you are trying to show disrespect?"
Since I don't respect you I'm going to go with the second option that being disrespect.
You come in attack me with false allegations, accuse me of "mental gymnastics" because I used sound biblical interpretation. Scripture interprets scripture verse interprets verse.
You then falsely accuse me of not allowing Muslims to harmonize their quran?
When have I ever done that?????
You then you use a standard Muslim arguments borrowed from atheist of laying the Judgment verses of Leviticus at my feet. And then you ask "what would Jesus think of this messagebord?
You also accused me of some form of replacement theology. When does fulfill mean replace? Learn what fulfill means sir, then come and talk to me.
I have no interest in conversing with either a atheist pretending to be a Christian, or a Muslim pretending to be a Atheist.
@Radical -
You have posted several quotes from the Koran or hadith and when given counter arguments to those quotes you've remained silent and then just continue on another line. I take that as refusing to acknowlege the Muslims' own understanding of their Koran.
As far as using mental gymnastics, that's what it is. You're not allowing for a natural reading of the bible and having to use pieced together quotes over the bible, but ignore other parts of the bible to come to your predetermined conclusion. There's a much easier way to come to the understanding of Christ's message without the hoops you jump through.
I also suggest you look up tautology.
As far as who is a Christian or athiest, we can just let God sort that out. I would respectfully ask you to read Matthew 5:44 and Matthew 7:5, and then ask yourself if you're doing your best to follow Christ's message.
Finally, is telling someone to go home and beat their wife because she needs a good beating a peaceful message?
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , the sad one is you and only you. I cited 2 biblical verses , luk19:27 and rev19:15. Both about the second coming of your so called god , biblical jesus , which is before the end of days as confirmed by you. However you in your attempt of 'mental gymnastics' is confining yourself to only rev19:15 but you claim the bible explains itself. What about luk19:27?
There is no correlation between mat13 'parable of the weed explained' and luk19:27 as its of different timeframe , before vs during the end of days - you confirm of such.
I am not talking about christians killing death , satan , sin. I am focused on luk19:27 in which your so called god , biblical jesus , extract his wrath on non christians by commanding christians to kill the non christians. In verbatim , luk19:27 '..But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me..' How can it be angels as claimed by you because in rev19:15 , your so called god , biblical jesus has already subjugated nations and rule with 'an iron scepter'. This is logical thinking.
1. John Gill commentary stated that your so called god extract his wrath on the non believers (ie. non christians). How does he do it? The bible itself in luk19:27 stated that your so called god , biblical jesus , commands christians to kill non christians. There is logical complement between the bible in luk19:27 and john gill commentary of the verse.
For the rest - (2) , (3) , (4) , (5) is just BS from you in an attempt of distraction. You confirmed the timeframe of the second coming to be before the end of days. During / after the end of days I don't disagree that the angels will such task.
You are running all over the place trying to BS your way thru. You need honesty in your argument. Hmmm , difficult to expect such from a nutcase who is a christian bigot.
@sam -
An easier way to explain the message in Luke is to view it as what it is a parable. The point of the story is to use what God has given us faithfully. The part about killing those who actively plotted against the king means that those who work against God's will will be punished.
That's it, no more reading necessary. It's a parable, not a command, and it's used to illustrate what's right and wrong. Right = working faithfully for God. Wrong = working against God.
Not that complex.
UncleTom
you said...
"An easier way to explain the message in Luke is to view it as what it is a parable."
My response HA HA HA HA HA LOL HA HA HA HA.
I turn him over to you lol
Uncletom
you said...
"Finally, is telling someone to go home and beat their wife because she needs a good beating a peaceful message?"
If it directed to a muslim YES.
@Sam1528 one last shot before I turn you over to Uncle Tom.
You said...
"John Gill commentary stated that your so called god extract his wrath on the non believers (ie. non christians). How does he do it? The bible itself"
Couple of things you are correct John Gill does state that GOD, will extract his wrath on the Muslims, Atheists, Budasists etc... (BTW to Uncle Tom this is the meaning of "FULFILL) and you are right the bible does explain how he will do it. The Angles and the, Seven seals, seven trumpets, Seven bowls of Gods wrath. Angles harvesting "the grapes" for the wine-press of Gods wrath. That destroys 2/3rds of the world, and inflicts severe punishment on the remaining third, so much so they will pray for death but death will not come.
Then Jesus in the second coming kills the rest including "sin, death, and Satan" John Gills cometary which you quote then ignore.
But what is funny, is that John Gills cometary, the comentary you appealed to and quoted says that this has been fullfiled. "which had its accomplishment in the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies;"
Thats right John Gill was a partial prederist LOL. He wrote and you quoted it that this had been fullfilled in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
Funny thing is that the CHRISTIANS taking the bible to heart FLED Jereslum. Its even in the Talmud
YOU SO NEED TO GET HELP WITH YOUR READING COMPREHENSION.
Uncle Tom
I was going to respond to your false accusations about Muslims giving counter arguments to there own koran, and me renaming silent. But I have decided the best thing to do is give you SAM1528. He is my gift to you, enjoy.
uncletrvlingjim ,
You can view luk19:27 as a parable but what is the context?
Lets look at john gill commentary , '..and then all other enemies will be slain and destroyed..' (http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=019&verse=027).
How are the so called enemies of biblical jesus 'slain and destroyed'? Simple , per luk19:27 '..But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me..'.
The command is to whom?
radical moderate ,
You are again being deceptive. You confirmed that the second coming of your so called god is before the end of days. That means at that time he will start his activities like
(1) 'striking down nations with a sword and ruling over them' per rev19:15
(2) commanding christians to kill non christians per luk19:27
By your logic he then stop halfway and goes off? Of course not. According to your bible he will be around from before to after the end of days. Therefore your so called god will be around during the killing of satan , death and sin but it is in a different timeframe which is during / after end of days. I am talking about your so called god , biblical jesus commanding christians to kill non christians in his second coming which you confirmed to be before the end of days , luk19:27. Why are you confusing the 2 timeframes?
From you '..He wrote and you quoted it that this had been fullfilled in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD..'.
TQ for bringing this up. You are digging yourself into a deeper hole. If its an accomplishment by biblical jesus second coming .... errrr , where is he? 2000yrs came and gone ... he still hasn't arrive. You god , biblical jesus , lost his way or what?
Reading comprehension? Oh , you mean I don't indulge in 'mental gymnastics'? Only nutcases who are christian bigots does that.
@sam1528
I give you to Uncle Tom
Good night and God bless
radical moderate ,
From you '..I give you to Uncle Tom..'.
In other words you got whupped and now you are hightailing out. TQ
Remember .... no 'mental gymnastics' here (phrase borrowed from uncletrvlingjim)
@Radical -
You said:
"If it directed to a muslim YES. "
That is why I think you're in need of saving. It sounds like you have left the path of Christ, please come back.
@sam -
I don't particularly care what John Gill has to say about anything.
There is no command. Jesus is telling a story. In that story he illustrates what is good and what is bad. That is it.
There is no command to do anything. Read that story with all of the Gospels, and I would have a hard time finding any command to do violence on anyone at any time ever.
uncletrvlingjim ,
John Gill is a recognised bible comentator. If you don't care about his commentary .... there are lots of others who do.
Lets look at the 'parable of the 10 minas' in context per biblical jesus story.
- Biblical jesus leaves his followers comes back later
- Ask them how they have been doing and rebukes the ones not doing too good
- for his enemies he orders them be killed in front of him
You claim his enemies to be punished. Killing (luk19:27) goes beyond punishment. You cannot equate killing to mean punishment. There is just no other avenue to sugarcoat this issue.
@sam -
Again, read the story. It isn't a command, it's a parable. He's telling a story to illustrate a message, nothing more, nothing less. Jesus isn't telling anyone to do anything here. He's telling a story to illustrate what is good and what is bad.
You can take from what it what you wish, but in reading it I have a hard time seeing Jesus ordering anyone to be killed here - to do otherwise would require your own mental gymanstics. Take that in combination with all of the Gospels, and it's clear Christ's message is for his followers to follow a non-violent path.
@Uncle Tom
I see your doing real well with Sam1528. That's sarcasim by the way.
You said...
"That is why I think you're in need of saving"
So respecting a Muslim's right to beat his wife, and the right of a Muslim wife to be beatin, now means I am not saved. This coming from a man who thinks "exogeting" the text of the NT is "mental gymnastics".
Well have fun with Sam, remember yuo can not exogeet the text because that would be Mental Gymnastics.
@Radical -
From here it looks like all your exegesis has led you away from the message of Christ. I see none of it in any of your posts, which are rude, combatitive, etc.
Can you answer this question in the affirmative. Would Christ approve of the way I treat other people here? And please remember how Christ told us to deal with people we don't agree with.
Cheers.
uncletrvlingjim ,
You tell me. Lets look at your / radical moderate's view of the verses in question
(1) your view : Its a parable , a story. Biblical jesus is talking about punishment
(2) Radical moderate's view : its the angels doing the killing
This is a difficult passage for christians. This is because you guys keep on saying that the message of biblical jesus is peaceful , fair and dandy.
Lets call a spade a spade. Luk19:27 when explained together with rev19:15 , its biblical jesus in his second coming slaying 'non belivers' left and right and also ordering his the followers of his ministry to kill non christians.
You say biblical jesus tells his followers to follow a non violent path. Why then he proposed to fight at the garden of gethsemene? He only backed off when he realised that he was outnumbered by the roman soldiers.
@sam -
Again, why feel the need to jump to Revelations? It was written well after Christ lived and taught, and it wasn't included as part of the Bible for quite a while - it's inclusion is still not universally accepted. If you need something written decades later and not accessible to most practitioners to interpret a parable that Christ told, then you're saying Christ is a terrible teacher. The Gospels attempt to retell the story of Christ during his lifetime, the stories he told and the lessons he taught stand on their own (knowledge of the Talmud can help explain the context of some of the context of Christs lessons).
As far as the supposed last stand on Gethsemane... I assume you're talking about Luke again where he tells someone to sell what they have to buy a sword, and when someone tells him that they have 2 swords, he says that is enough. So apparently you think Christ's skills as a tactician are as poor as a teacher. You apparently think that he's telling his 11 faithful disciples that two swords between them will be enough to withstand the authorities of Jerusalem. Really? I'm not sure how a natural reading of the scripture can lead one to think that he was planning a violent escape with two swords, and waiting in a garden.
Why go through your own mental gymnastics, when you can use Christs own words on how to deal with your enemies? He consistently says "offer them your other cheek, give them the clothes off your back, bless them, etc".
As far as what will happen in the Last Days? Why not wait for the Last Days and see what Christ does then? It seems beyond pointless to wrestle with those questions that deal with the future, when the present is hard enough.
RadicalModerate -- there is a lesson here for you as well I think. Do you see how wrong and pointless it is for someone else to come in and tell you what your scriptures really mean even when you believe differently? Why spend your time telling Muslims what they really believe? It's pointless -- there's a much simpler way to live, people believe what they want, I'm just concerned about their actions. I worry about what an individual does.
Unless you're one of those collectivist leftists that don't value the individual, in which case, I'll just have to say I disagree with you. We have a society based on individual rights and responsibilities and I wish to keep it that way.
Uncle Tom
I never thought I would say this but after reading your response, "it's a parable" if I didn't know any better I would have to agree with Sam.
Please go and study more.
@Radical -
I'm happy that I could bring you two crazy kids together.
If you want to believe that the Gospel of Luke can't stand on it's own and requires a book that was probably written 30 or so years later in another part of the world and not necessarily included with the Gospel of Luke until the late 4th Century... help yourself.
I'm sure it's abundantly clear by now I'm not a biblical literalist...
uncletrvlingjim ,
From you '..We have a society based on individual rights and responsibilities and I wish to keep it that way..'
At last - the voice of reason. TQ. You hit the spot with your comment '..Do you see how wrong and pointless it is for someone else to come in and tell you what your scriptures really mean even when you believe differently? Why spend your time telling Muslims what they really believe?..'.
Radical moderate has been doing that for some time. Look at how he twist / turn / blabber / employ mental gymnastics when the same is done with his scriptures. Inconsistency has been his hallmark.
Fair play to you .... you are even minded.
Rev19:15 was mentioned as radical moderate used it. That is following his logic.
The incident at the garden of gethsemene is evidence when threatened with his life , biblical jesus fought back and he was prepared too kill. 'Turning the other cheek' is when the situation is not life threatening like him / his apostles being harassed when he / they deliver the message. These are 2 different situations.
@sam -
I've read the passage a few times, and I'm just not coming to the same conclusion you are. It seems odd that Jesus would tell his disciples that 2 swords were enough to defend themselves when he knew he was going to be facing an actual arrest party. Not to mention by this point, Jesus talked many times about his fate was to be killed, so it seems odd that he would advocate resisting God's will in this case.
There are a number of possibilities. One, he was filled with doubt, and maybe he did have an idea to resist his fate with the use of the sword, but ultimately decided to accept his fate (that was what he was praying about in the garden).
I think a more plausible scenario is that he was talking about the disciples provisioning themselves to spread his message after he was gone. And this would include having a sword. There is an implicit recognition that disciples would be allowed to defend themselves against bandits and such.
This would need to be weighed with the other pacifist messages in the Gospels, and the fact that in Acts the apostles did not resist violence with violence, so they at least seemed to believe that Christ did not want them to use violence in those situations either.
Regarding the original blog, I just don't get the idea of telling other people what it is that they really believe, or what their religion really teaches. Religion is an intensely personal matter and the way it is practiced varies greatly from time period to time period and region to region.
I've lived in Egypt and hitch hiked and traveled all over the Middle East openly as a Christian and an American, and I feel confident in saying if Muslims were truly the depraved lunatics that some portray them to be, I'd be dead. Since instead, I had an overwhelming number of positive experiences, I feel safe in saying that Muslims are pretty much just like any other people. Some good, some bad -- most in the middle trying to get by.
My theory is that people pretty much behave similarly when placed in similar situations. We only add justifications such as a religion afterwards.
uncletrvlingjim ,
You are well travelled , therefore you have better insights into the different people / religion / culture. Islamophobes like 'radical moderate' is probably a red neck who has never ventured out of his hometown. There lies the difference.
I stand by my statement that biblical jesus was not a pacifist. Lets look at the biblical verses in context. You mentioned about him offering the other cheek when his right cheek was slapped. If you consider the context of culture , being palmslapped on the right cheek is with the left hand which is used for 'toilet purposes' Its insult to injury. However it is not life threatening.
You are comparing 2 different situations. The incident at the garden of gethsemene , his life was threatened. Biblical jesus put up an armed stand only to back off when confronted by 'a large crowd' and / or roman soldiers. The keypoint is that he was willing to make an armed stand and fight but backed off when faced with overwhelming odds. Even though he knew he would be crucified , he was not 'a willing participant' as he prayed to god imploring that such burden be taken from him.
Before that , he disrupted the temple by overturning tables and calling the priests vipers , sons of adulterous generations (aka bastards). This is not a behavior of a pacifist.
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