How to respond to Christian fumndamentalists on the internet. Insha'Allah this erudite lecture by Muslim intellectual and scholar, Sheikh Abdal Hakim Murad (aka Timothy Winter). will help Muslims to deal with and contextualize the anti-Muslim rhetoric sputed by militant Christians on the internet.
Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad talks about modern day christian fundamentalists and their anti-islamic attacks via the Internet or political means. He also talks about the correct muslim response
Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad also known as Dr. Timothy Winter is a lecturer at Cambridge University and has made many contributions to islam. He also translated many classical islamic texts, perhaps most famously Rememberence Of Death And The Afterlife By Imam Abu Hamid Al Ghazali.
PLEASE LISTEN AND LEARN BECAUSE THIS IS VERY RELEVANT TO INTERNET USING MUSLIMS DUE THE FACT THAT WE COME ACROSS NUMEROUS ENCOUNTERS WITH HARDCORE CHRISTIANS.
NOTE: I combined all the 4 parts into one video. Previously this lecture was only available in split form
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230 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 230 of 230FMM:
no offence but you still have not answered my question.
What you do if there was something that unquestionably went back to the closest companions of Jesus that made it clear that the Quran was not the word of God?
I say:
Right back at ya. What are the names of those who had first hand knowledge that the NT was written by the alleged writers and who past this info on to people like Papias.
Maratsafin said:
Your last question is impossible,unless you belive that the three whos are three Gods which they are in trinitarian belief.example a family is a "what" and consisting in that family are three "whos" father mother and son.One family consisting of three whos, this cannot work for a God who is eternal and has no equal.
I say:
Wait a minute, the term family is a social construct or a grouping term it doesn't denote the character, nature or substance of an entity. A person is human, but can't be family. So one human + one human + one human = three humans. one god + one god + one god equals three gods.
FMM
Care to make a friendly wager. I will bet you $1 that if you answer LOBO question below.
"Right back at ya. What are the names of those who had first hand knowledge that the NT was written by the alleged writers and who past this info on to people like Papias."
He will then want to know who there mothers and fathers where, brothers sisters uncles and aunts and even if you provided that info, he would still want the relative realives info lol
@Erick wrote...
"Although to me the text are not explicit about Jesus (p) divinity ( I will be happy to discuss) but first I must say have specific problem with Gospel of John. "
Really? You have not been paying attention have you. Casue that text was enough to prove to 1milimeter that Jesus is DIVINE.
Here let me share my new and improved SHAHADA with you.
"I believe that there is no GOd but ALLAH, and Mohamed is his son. Allah shows his son Mohamed all that he can do, and Mohamed can do all that Allah can do. Allah gives life to who he is pleased to give, and Mohamed gives life to whom ever he wills to give it to. The dead will hear Mohameds voice and come out to live, those that have done good to ever lasting life, those that have done bad to eternal punishment. What ever you ask Mohamed in his Name he will give it to you."
I already know that Muslims could never say such a thing. But my question is WHY NOT? WHAT DOES THE ABOVE SAY ABOUT THE SON IN THIS CASE MOHAMED? "
Hey Marat,
No offence but you are going to have to learn to focus if you want to have a discussion. It is impossible to rationally discus fifteen things at once. Try to stick with the subject at hand please
You said,
Your last question is impossible,unless you belive that the three whos are three Gods which they are in trinitarian belief.example a family is a "what" and consisting in that family are three "whos" father mother and son.One family consisting of three whos, this cannot work for a God who is eternal and has no equal.
I say,
I glad we agree a family is a “what” that consists of three who’s.
It appears that your problem is not that you believe that the Trinity is incoherent it’s that you just believe that in order for God to be worthy of worship he has to be a monopersonal being like you.
You say,
in numbers 23:19 God clearly lays out that he is not a man nor the son of man,
I say,
I agree the bible makes it clear that God is nothing like a man.
Yet you hold that in order to be worthy of your worship God has to monopersonal just like a man.
That attitude of declaring that you will only worship a God like you instead of allowing God to reveal himself to you is what the Prophets call Idolatry.
It’s a very serious sin I would hope you would think about that.
Peace
Hey Eric,
I'm sorry to hear that you have completely cut yourself off from God's genuine revelation.
When it comes right down to it your attitude toward the Bible is the same as mine toward the Quran and I think Muhammad was a false prophet.
This is so much different than we Christian’s attitude to the revelations that came before Jesus.
It offers yet more proof that Islam is the odd faith out. When I talk with Jews we share a common point of reference with you I have none.
I had held out hope that you might be a little different than the other Muslims here in this regard. But no such luck.
I can’t understand why you spend so much time and effort trying to shoehorn the Bible into your presuppositions.
It’s seems to me It would be a lot easier if you just took lobo and 1mm’s postion and admitted that you don’t care what the Bible says.
Long story short until you admit the possibility that God could have spoken to men before Mohammad came along we will be just spinning our wheels
Peace
RM,
Yes I agree
It makes no sense to go to the trouble proving the genuineness of a passage when everyone here says that they really don't care about reliability. They will reject the Gospel regardless.
quote:
"Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
(Matthew 7:6)
end quote:
peace
Lobo said,
Wait a minute, the term family is a social construct or a grouping term it doesn't denote the character, nature or substance of an entity.
I say,
The word “Entity” just means something that has existence surely a family has existence.
As does a corporation, a partnership, a marriage, a base ball team, a nation, a species etc etc etc
All what’s made up of who’s
Lobo said,
A person is human, but can't be family.
I say,
Of course!
God is not like a family and human family members are not like God
What is with you and this desire to compare created things to the creator.
On the other hand if we are just looking at what is logically acceptable instead trying to compare creation to God lots of possibilities present themselves for example.
Lobo is human as is Eric and lobo and FMM.
All humans (whos’s) make up one humanity (what)
This is just metaphysics 101
Lobo said,
So one human + one human + one human = three humans. one god + one god + one god equals three gods.
I say,
All those possessing human nature = humanity
All those possessing Divine nature= God
This is not hard. It’s like you have a hole in the logic portion of your brain.
Are you really this blinded?
Use your head man
Peace
Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm,
FMM:
"I'm sorry to hear that you have completely cut yourself off from God's genuine revelation.
When it comes right down to it your attitude toward the Bible is the same as mine toward the Quran and I think Muhammad was a false prophet.
This is so much different than we Christian’s attitude to the revelations that came before Jesus.
It offers yet more proof that Islam is the odd faith out. When I talk with Jews we share a common point of reference with you I have none. "
Im sorry but Time and time again your signs of hypocricy shows up.
A few lines down you refuse to talk to the Jews,
In your own words:
"Do you really expect me to ask people who have completely missed the entire message of the scriptures what their understanding of a word found in the scriptures means.
The Jews missed the Messiah. God has given their hearts a special hardening and a spirit of stupor.
I really would not put a lot of stock in their exegesis"
Now you praise the Jews as if their position in sync with hardcore Trinitarianism you are bitterly defending in an attempt to make it appear Islam has false presuppositions on previous revelations. NO they are NOT!
Judaism position on God fundamental principle is no different with Islam.
Interesting exhibit of how your minds work.
I guess Bro. 1MM was right when he said you are often contradicting yourself.
Your problem is you are oversimplifying my position. Why dont you carefully examine what the Quran position and re-consider what your own presuppostions on the Bible text we have today.
On the contrary to the attitude you have toward the Quran, My attitude as a muslims to the revelation that came before the Quran is laid out by the Quran itself.
We must respect previous revelation the Torah of Moses (p) and the Gospel of Jesus (p).
And Yes, we believe that God have spoken to the prophets before The Quran came along.
It is built in!!
But God warn us that the scriptures on posession today are forged. The truth and falsehood are mixed. So when we read the Bible we have now we must use the Quran to judge.
I hope you can understand why I still refer to some of the Bible text and spend time and effort to share muslims undesrstanding of it in the discussion.
Unless of course you are willing to accept the revelation given to prophet Muhammad (p).
InshaAllah I pray to God that you will.
Wassalam
@fmm call me what you want, I do not belive God is like me (may Allah swt forgive me for even putting that in writing)
Allah swt is what is described of him in the Quran eg
Eternal
One without Equal
Master of the universe
The all seeing
The all hearing
The all knowing
and many more,this i do not and never will belive humans can attain.
I belive in the God the prophets of old belived in. The one who declared that he is not a man nor like a son of man,things without question jesus was called.
You still have not provided an objection as to why my family analogy of the trinity is wrong,unless you agree with me that it is actually polythiesm. (one of the links i provided rebuts this view,the social trinitartian view as being trithiesm).
I see no hint of the trinity in the hebrew testament. When God was walking in the garden,it never says God the father and son and holy spirit.
You say
"All those possessing Divine nature= God"
Absolutely that is why jesus is not God he ate,he rested,he slept,didnt know a lot of things and according to you he died.
Again back to the trinity,you cannot have one entity that compromises of three states of being, that is logically impossible. You can have many beings all seperate but united not in substance but in a common cause.
The way i think of the christian trinity is the way SOME hindus think of thier trinity and visualise it in idols with three faces or three heads from one neck.!!!
Book of revelation chapters 4 and 5make a clear distinction between the one on the throne (father) and jesus.
John 17:3,14:28,20:17 makes a clear distinction between jesus and the Father.
you say
"No offence but you are going to have to learn to focus if you want to have a discussion. It is impossible to rationally discus fifteen things at once. Try to stick with the subject at hand please"
none taken but i will say it is hard to talk about the incoherence of the trinity without mentioning the incoherence of the incarnation.
You have also failed to answer who is this mysterious Melchisedec, who for all intents and purposes is also a God according to your logic,someone that jesus is compared to!!!! except this person has no beggining nor end neither father nor mother!!!
You say,
Now you praise the Jews as if their position in sync with hardcore Trinitarianism you are bitterly defending in an attempt to make it appear Islam has false presuppositions on previous revelations. NO they are NOT!
I say
What I said was
When I talk with Jews we share a common point of reference
Jews and Christians both believe that God reveals himself and they both believe that God has preserved all his revelation.
We both believe that the place learn about the nature of God is God’s revelation all of it.
You are right that there are profound differences between our faiths but we share a common point of reference in the word of God.
I would not Go to a Jew to learn proper interpretation but we would be on the same page when it comes to respect for God’s word
You said,
Judaism position on God fundamental principle is no different with Islam.
I say,
For the Jews I know phrases like “God fundamental principle” don't occupy a lot of their time.
For Jews and Christians Yahweh is above all else a personal God who is in relationship with his people.
His “God fundamental principle” is not something that we spend a lot of time dwelling on. We just accept what he has revealed about himself.
Islam is indeed the odd one out much more like Greek speculative philosophy than a religion of the Book.
Peace
you said,
Why dont you carefully examine what the Quran position
I say,
That is what I was trying to do with my question
Apparently the “Quran position” is to ignore God’s word. You have said so yourself.
You treat Muhammad’s writings as a substitute for the Word of God not as a revelation fom God like the Prophets did.
Just imagine Isaiah saying that if the Books of Moses contradicted his message we should ignore them.
It would never happen
Instead he like Jesus points people to the revelation that came before him.
You say,
and re-consider what your own presuppostions on the Bible text we have today.
I say,
For the sake of argument I was willing look at the Gospel as corrupt unless universally accepted as genuine but you made it clear that even then you would reject it’s message.
You say,
We must respect previous revelation the Torah of Moses (p) and the Gospel of Jesus (p).
I say,
Respect for a text involves listening to what it says even when it might disagree with me.
I respect the Quran in that I will quote it only when it agrees with me and use it to try and show Muslims that they should be more like Christians and do my best to try to convince others that it is unreliable and corrupt.
Do you see how condescending this sounds?
You say,
And Yes, we believe that God have spoken to the prophets before The Quran came along.
I say,
You say with your lips but your actions say that you will not listen to any Word that disagrees with the text that Ultman complied for you.
Quote:
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
(2 Timothy 4:3-4)
End quote:
Peace
marat says,
and many more,this i do not and never will belive humans can attain.
I say
I agree no Christian would ever say that a human can be God.
You say
You still have not provided an objection as to why my family analogy of the trinity is wrong
I say,
It’s wrong because it takes a created thing a family and says “God is like this“. Instead of allowing God to tell us what he is like.
That is idolatry
You say,
you cannot have one entity that compromises of three states of being, that is logically impossible.
I say,
Please elaborate what do you mean by “states of being”
The Son is not a state of being he is a person
You say
I see no hint of the trinity in the hebrew testament.
I say,
Why bring up the OT? Don’t you agree with everyone else here in that you will reject any part of the OT that disagrees with you?
You say,
i will say it is hard to talk about the incoherence of the trinity without mentioning the incoherence of the incarnation.
I say,
Before we talk about incoherence of the trinity you need to demonstrate that the trinity is incoherent.
You have already agreed that it is not incoherent for a singular what to made up of plural whos. So that can't be the issue
Just what about the Trinity do you find to be incoherent?
Peace
marat says,
You have also failed to answer who is this mysterious Melchisedec
I say
Melchizedek is a possibly a “type” ( as in type-antitype) of Christ or more likely a preincarnate manifestation of the Son.
Christians call such manifestations of Christ before the incarnation theophanies or Christophanies and there are dozens of them in the OT.
OT theopanies are strong evidence for the Trinity
Didn’t you read Hebrews?
Peace
@fmm
first you say this
"It’s wrong because it takes a created thing a family and says “God is like this“. Instead of allowing God to tell us what he is like"
but then you agree with my analogy by saying this
"You have already agreed that it is not incoherent for a singular what to made up of plural whos. So that can't be the issue"
but ask what my problem is when i have already stated my opposition as to why it dosent hold logically.
I have always stated the trinity is incoherent when you say it is a mon othiestic faith!! it is not incoherent if you believe what it actually is,which is trithiesm or polythiesm.
My family ananlogy works,forget about a human family,think of a eternal family and you have polythiesm like in the hindus trinity.
you say
"The Son is not a state of being he is a person"
ok sure the son is a person, as is the father and the holy spirit. what you have is a family of three persons,or three beings,or three brains or what ever word you want but they are distinct and each have thier own will. What you have is 3 Gods but catually not saying it because of the strict monothiesm of the old testament.
cont below
@fmm
Melchizedek is a possibly a “type” ( as in type-antitype) of Christ or more likely a preincarnate manifestation of the Son."
in other words " i have no idea who is and he is a problem for mainstream christianity"
you say
"Didn’t you read Hebrews?"
right back at you,the author of hebrews say jesus is LIKE Melchizedek. If he was some sort of manifestation why did he (melchizedek) tell abraham that it was God who gave him victory? why didnt he say there and then i am the second part of the trinity and together with the father and holy spirit we gave you victory??
If the author of hebrew thought jesus and Melchizedek were one and the same why did he not just say instead of comparing them as 2 different beings but possesing the same presithood?
you say
"Christians call such manifestations of Christ before the incarnation theophanies or Christophanies and there are dozens of them in the OT"
the problem you have comparing the incidents like the burning bush and when moses went up to sinai or the pillar of cloud and fire, is that eihter txt says God is here or God makes it clear by speaking.
Melchizedek makes no claim when he is with abraham and neither does the book of hebrews.
Seems like the best solution is the mormon one but then that would be admitting poythiesm.!!!
Hey Marat,
lets tackle the supposed incoherence of the trinity first then we will move on to Melchizedek ok? Once we finish the topic at hand I will be glad to give you a lesson in the Christian understanding trust me I’ve thought about him a lot and listened to countless sermons and lectures about him he is a favorite topic of mine
This is what I mean by focusing. You use discipline and try to not drift all over the map
You say,
My family ananlogy works,forget about a human family,think of a eternal family and you have polythiesm like in the hindus trinity.
I say,
I have absolutely no idea what an eternal family would be like and I don't wish to speculate.
What’s more I don’t care what a “eternal family” would look like anymore than I care what a unicorn or a mermaid would look like. Why bother thinking about a thing that does not exist except in my imagination.
Why can't you just stick to what God reveals about his self instead of comparing him to created things?
The important thing is God never says he is a family or that you should compare him to a family. That should be enough for you
Thinking about a family is only helpful to show that the concept of a plurality of individuals can make up a singular thing to go beyond that is to invite error.
You say,
ok sure the son is a person, as is the father and the holy spirit. what you have is a family of three persons,or three beings,or three brains or what ever word you want but they are distinct and each have thier own will.
I say,
No the Bible never calls God a family and never says that the Son or the Spirit want any thing that is different than the Father does.
We can talk about the two wills of God (secret and revealed) or the two wills of Jesus (human and Divine) but I don’t think that is what you are getting at here.
In the Trinity there is only one will the will of God. There is no debate or compromise in God only perfect unity.
See the trouble you get into you project attributes of the creation onto the creator. Persons in a family might want different things but persons in God never Do.
God is God and all that can be known of him he reveals himself that should be enough for you.
It sure would get you in less trouble
Peace
@fmm
you say
"No the Bible never calls God a family and never says that the Son or the Spirit want any thing that is different than the Father does"
I never said it did, i was trying to draw a comparision of what the trinity essentially is.
The bible also never states that the father and son or holy spirit are equal never mind of the same substance.
you say
"Why can't you just stick to what God reveals about his self instead of comparing him to created things?"
Since he never reveals himself to be some sort of triune God and never reveals himself as what is stated in the athanasian creed. Never states he shares his Glory with three beings,it is for your sake that i make these analogies so that you may see the error of your ways and why councils of nicea and chalcedon should not be followed.
you say
"We can talk about the two wills of God (secret and revealed) or the two wills of Jesus (human and Divine) but I don’t think that is what you are getting at here"
Jesus has one will not 2 and it isnt even hinted in the new testament that he has 2 wills or 2 natures.
In matthew 26:39 it read;
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
here is a clear statement that he prayed to the FATHER not to a God that compromises of three persons but just the father,asking him to be saved but it is not his WILL but the fathers WILL, note what he says "Fathers will" not a triune Gods will just incase you want to play words games again.
I will say this fmm you are far more respectable than some one else who is obsessed with this site and for that i thank you.
FMM said
The word “Entity” just means something that has existence surely a family has existence.
As does a corporation, a partnership, a marriage, a base ball team, a nation, a species etc etc etc
I say:
Ok I'll go along with your premises. So the term human as well as family has existence and is a what. So one family + one family + one family = equals three families. One human + one human + human = three humans. One god + one god + one god equals three gods. Family describes a group of entities. One person can't make up one family. In the same way that one person can't make up a group of people. So if you have three gods, they are a group of gods. The word group as well as family are both in the singular. So if you choose to call the son, the father and the holy spirit God which is in the singular it logically follows that one son, one father and one mother are a family or a group of people. The word family just means that a particular group consist of entities that have a certain internal relationship. You said it yourself that the family analogy is a logical way of understanding the trinity.
Maratsafin, your family analogy wasn't that bad after all ;)
Mud rake, how are things with you?
Still friends?
Since he never reveals himself to be some sort of triune God
I say,
so your problem is not with the
and never reveals himself as what is stated in the athanasian creed. Never states he shares his Glory with three beings,it is for your sake that i make these analogies so that you may see the error of your ways and why councils of nicea and chalcedon should not be followed.
First of all I do not follow councils I follow God says in the Bible and the Bible reveals that
1) There is one God
2) The Father is God
3) the Son is God
4) The Spirit is God
5) the Father the Son and the Spirit are different persons
That is what the Trinity is that's it full Stop
I can give you ample Scriptural Justification for each of these truths but as has been demonstrated by everyone here Muslims don’t really care what the scripture says.
you say,
I can give you ample Scriptural Justification for each of these truths but as has been demonstrated by everyone here Muslims don’t really care what the scripture says
I will say this fmm you are far more respectable than some one else who is obsessed with this site and for that i thank you.
You say,
Don’t say that too loud.
It might get you in trouble with your fellow religionists. here
They have gone so far as to call me a moron and change usernames to try and trick me into shameing my Lord.
Peace
Hey all,
I apologize for the jumbled nature of my last post. I was in a hurry and proofread even less than usuall
I'm sure you can understand the message even though it is not 100 percent exactly what I intended to say,
It requires a little effort but it can be done.
funny how it works like that. ;-)
I just hope you don't ignore the whole thing just because it appears to be a little corrupted.
peace
FMM said:
There is one God
I say:
Is the one God a who or a what?
lobo said,
Is the one God a who or a what?
I say,
One what(God)consisting of three who's (The Father the Son and the Spirit).
I know this not by human speculation as to the nature of God or by comparing God to myself but by God’s own revelation.
Unlike the Muslims here I do not subject God’s revelation to my opinions of what I think God should be like instead I subject my opinions to the Word of God.
This amazing truth means among other things that the one true God
1) Does not need to create to experience love or companionship.
2) Can be jealous for his own Glory with out being egotistic
3) Can be perfectly just and infinitly holy and at the same time forgive sin
This doctrine is not illogical or incoherent and it’s not polytheism
It’s simply pure Monotheism as taught by the prophets and reveled in the Scriptures
hope that helps
Peace
@The MUSLIMS
How many times are you guys going to ask the same question over and over and over again.
FMM responded to LOBO
"lobo said,
Is the one God a who or a what?
I say,
One what(God)consisting of three who's (The Father the Son and the Spirit)."
FMM how many times have you answered the same question with the same response?
I think we should create a spreadhseet and tally how many time each Muslim asks us the same question.
Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm,
FMM:
"One what(God)consisting of three who's (The Father the Son and the Spirit)."
I repeat.
In the scriptures the eternal God who created everything is always described as the One Being of God ...as a Who.
it is NEVER a who and a What.
If you trinitarianists want to propose
1) The Father is God
2) the Son is God
3) The Spirit is God
and make futile attempts to make all 3 into 1 this is incoherent, illogical, and self-contradictory to the words of Jesus (p):
“The LORD our God is One LORD.” (Mar 12:29)
One LORD, of course, is One WHO one Persone One Being!!
All through the Scriptures, the one God of Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob and Muhammad (p) is presented as one who
NEVER
"as a three whos of one what".
Wassalam
Bismi-llāh,
FMM:
"I can give you ample Scriptural Justification for each of these truths but as has been demonstrated by everyone here Muslims don’t really care what the scripture says."
You mean we don care to what interpretation and text selections you force us to believe to your incoherent, illogical, and self-contradictory doctrine?
No we dont.
Jesus (p) denied being God several times.
Please got it right.
Eric says,
One LORD, of course, is One WHO one Persone One Being!!
I say,
How do you know that one Lord(One Yahweh in Hebrew)means one person?
You believe it means one person only because you think God must be like you.
You say,
You mean we don care to what interpretation and text selections you force us to believe to your incoherent, illogical, and self-contradictory doctrine?
I say,
First of all God is under no obligation to make his revelation adhere to your perception of what is coherent and logical on the contrary you are obligated to submit your reason to God’s revelation.
On top of that in over 200 posts no one has been able to show that the Trinity is anything but logical consistent and coherent.
All you’ve done is shown that you don’t like it because it reveals a God that is different than you.
you say,
No we dont.
I say,
You have made it verry clear that you will ignore any revelation from God that seems to contradict your own finite human understanding of what the book of your choice says.
That is the verry denifition of rebelion.
Peace
Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm,
FMM:
"How do you know that one Lord(One Yahweh in Hebrew)means one person?"
Who dont know this obvious ?
How?
Because I know God had no need to explain anymore truth in His word when He said, "Hear O Israel: The LORD (YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one."
God never said "The LORD (YHWH) our God are/is three consubstantial co-equal persons who are separate identities and yet somehow make one LORD (YHWH)."
How?
Because I know 1+1+1 Never be equal to 1.
It is illogical and mathematically absurd.
The answer to the equation: a+a+a=1 can only be a=1/3.
Any other answer is impossible! Saying that the three wholes are of one substance doesn't change the math.
How?
Because I know God is not contradictory. He is not the author of confusion when He gave us the Shema. He was not presenting us with a mystery. He was stating an absolute and immutable truth that we were to accept without any need for interpretation.
How?
Because your futile attempts so far to impose the trinitarian viewpoint of 200+ posts upon words gymnastics and passages that are unclear while ignoring other clear passages only contradict God's Words more.
"Do not say THREE!" (Q 2:171)
Wassalam
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