tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post2763496230690056310..comments2023-11-09T05:50:27.936-08:00Comments on The Facts About Islam: Does the Quran allow Sex with immature girls? NoYahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-82243885633457411712010-07-27T16:44:06.918-07:002010-07-27T16:44:06.918-07:00Anonymous:
Also more proof is the authentic hadee...Anonymous:<br /><br /><i>Also more proof is the authentic hadeeth of the Prophet (saw) that relations are only permissible if it doesn't cause the girl harm and when she is ready</i><br /><br />Can you provide a citation? Also, how about a plausible interpretation of Quran 65:4?<br /><br /><i>unlike in the bible where isaac married rebekah when she was 3, and of course there is no marriage without consummation (intercourse) in judaism</i><br /><br />The Bible does not mention Rebekah's age at marriage. However, a close reading of Genesis 24 shows that she could not have been three years old at the time she was given in marriage. First, she went to the well without anyone watching over her. Second, she re-filled her jar of water repeatedly to provide water to Abraham's servant and his camels. Third, she was able to hold a conversation. Fourth, she knows that her home has room for Abraham's servant. Fifth, Rebekah's family does not object to giving Rebekah in marriage to Isaac as you would expect them to do if she were three. Sixth, Rebekah's family acknowledges that she is mature enough to decide on her own whether to leave immediately with Abraham's servant.<br /><br />Sanh. 76b explicitly forbids parents to give their child in marriage before the child has reached puberty. Jewish law is quite clear on the matter. Why is it so difficult for Muslims to come up with an analogous citation from the Quran or Hadeeth?Jaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06413844619464733681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-43855438463469119622010-07-26T21:05:21.898-07:002010-07-26T21:05:21.898-07:00Also more proof is the authentic hadeeth of the Pr...Also more proof is the authentic hadeeth of the Prophet (saw) that relations are only permissible if it doesn't cause the girl harm and when she is ready ... unlike in the bible where isaac married rebekah when she was 3, and of course there is no marriage without consummation (intercourse) in judaism ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-9002574121336239882010-07-20T16:21:55.205-07:002010-07-20T16:21:55.205-07:00Anonymous:
Marrying someone that has not reached ...Anonymous:<br /><br /><i>Marrying someone that has not reached puberty does not mean you can have relations with that person</i><br /><br />True, but it sets up a situation that can be easily abused.<br /><br /><i>considering the example of the Prophet (saw) who technically married Aisha (ra) before she reached puberty but she didn't move into his household until after she reached it</i><br /><br />The earliest Muslim sources do not agree on this matter as my opening post demonstrated.<br /><br /><i>but Jews use the bible (Numbers 31:17-18) to justify marriage and coition with 3 year olds</i><br /><br />If some Jews rape children that doesn't mean it's OK for Muslims to rape children. Of course, it is quite a stretch to think that Numbers 31:17-18 is sanctioning child rape. The minimum age for marriage in Judaism is 13 for boys and 12 for girls.Jaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06413844619464733681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-31244160466621893762010-07-19T12:17:10.775-07:002010-07-19T12:17:10.775-07:00Marrying someone that has not reached puberty does...Marrying someone that has not reached puberty does not mean you can have relations with that person ... considering the example of the Prophet (saw) who technically married Aisha (ra) before she reached puberty but she didn't move into his household until after she reached it ... but Jews use the bible (Numbers 31:17-18) to justify marriage and coition with 3 year oldsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-77059787678126590902009-12-09T11:13:22.443-08:002009-12-09T11:13:22.443-08:00Jayman
Please read The Islamaphobe’s Glass House
...Jayman<br /><br />Please read The Islamaphobe’s Glass House<br />Refuting the Claim that Prophet Muhammad was a<br />Pedophile<br />By Ibn al-Hashimi<br /><br />If you google it you'll find the text.<br /><br />It also discusses the question of minimum age for marriage. As I said you have to discuss this with those who actually hold this opinion.el Lobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14098361439605791982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-62230100357924256212009-12-08T17:59:14.472-08:002009-12-08T17:59:14.472-08:00Zakaria:
By claiming that you force your worldvie...Zakaria:<br /><br /><i>By claiming that you force your worldview on an islamic worldview</i><br /><br />The fact that I believe the state should make sexual abuse illegal, does not mean that I am forcing my worldview on anyone (as if that were possible). It means I expect the government to protect innocent civilians.<br /><br /><i>I mean that those who say it's okay to marry a pre-menses girl do not agree with your presupposition that it is child abuse.</i><br /><br />You write as if this is merely a matter of personal opinion. Either sex with immature girls tends to harm such girls or it does not. There is no room for mere opinions.<br /><br /><i>You base your criteria on age alone which might not guarantee that the girl is ready for sex mentally and physically.</i><br /><br />I haven't asked for your definition of mental maturity yet because you still haven't explained your definition of physical maturity.<br /><br /><i>Just because you say so doesn't mean that your claim agrees with some objective truth.</i><br /><br />I assumed you could look up definitions and basic biological facts for yourself. <a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mature" rel="nofollow">Mature</a> is defined as: having completed natural growth and development; of or relating to a condition of full development. <a href="http://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/puberty.cfm" rel="nofollow">Menstruation</a> is usually the last sign of puberty. Unless you are going to butcher the definition of mature, I don't see how you can disagree with me much.<br /><br /><i>Do all differences of opinion need to be stressed?</i><br /><br />When it shows someone's claims to be false and is of such moral importance, yes. If we want to have an honest discussion about Islam and sex with immature girls we have to deal with the fact that some Muslims justify their actions with appeals to Shariah.<br /><br /><i>That doesn't mean that the minority view should be regarded as representative of the worldview as a whole.</i><br /><br />Nowhere have I said that all Muslims believe sex with immature girls is OK. However, the Quran and Hadith seem ambiguous at best on the subject. If the Quran is the basis of Islam and the Quran says sex with immature girls is permissible, then the Islamic worldview is suspect on ethical grounds.<br /><br /><i>Not only is this a minority view but it is very rarely practiced and should not thus be seen as representative of islam as a whole.</i><br /><br />Despite living in the West, I come across such stories about once a month. <a href="http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1557578.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a>'s a story from Kansas City. Note that "she was pressured into the union because her mother and stepfather thought she was going to be sexually active with a boy her age." Her relatives had to take her away "to protect her from further sexual abuse." Again, I didn't say all Muslims hold such a view and the article makes that clear too. But we can't deny that, say, a Quaker family would never subject their daughter to such abuse (and certainly not on religious grounds).<br /><br /><i>As soon as christian apolpogetics or other islamophobes find something they can criticize in islam they jump on it and imply that it is representative of the whole religion.</i><br /><br />I see that certain Islamic beliefs, not necessarily held by all Muslims, lead inevitably to immorality. Marrying off young girls is one of those beliefs, even if it is not held by all Muslims, that leads to immorality. As long as you ignore these links the abuse will continue. Would you rather that the "Christian apologists" and "Islamophobes" looked the other way as girls are sexually abused?Jaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06413844619464733681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-81909511552200186672009-12-08T11:24:41.094-08:002009-12-08T11:24:41.094-08:00Not only is this a minority view but it is very ra...Not only is this a minority view but it is very rarely practiced and should thus be seen as representative of islam as a whole.<br /><br />The sentence above should read as follows:<br /><br />Not only is this a minority view but it is very rarely practiced and should NOT thus be seen as representative of islam as a whole.el Lobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14098361439605791982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-28311344496595493092009-12-08T11:20:46.782-08:002009-12-08T11:20:46.782-08:00Jayman
"Are you actually saying that Muslims...Jayman<br /><br />"Are you actually saying that Muslims deem pre-marital sex to be worse than sexually abusing a child? My statement is not based on my worldview but on the fact that the victims of sexual abuse suffer much, much more than those who engage in consensual pre-marital sex."<br /><br />By claiming that you force your worldview on an islamic worldview I mean that those who say it's okay to marry a pre-menses girl do not agree with your presupposition that it is child abuse. <br /><br />"If you don't think a girl has to be menstruating then you are not using the term "mature" to mean fully sexually developed. Such a weak standard of maturity will lead to child abuse."<br /><br />In most western countries a girl can have consentual sex as early as 15 years old. Do all 15-year old girls meet even the islamic criteria let alone having had their first menses? No. You base your criteria on age alone which might not guarantee that the girl is ready for sex mentally and physically.<br />Moreover, you use a lot of words like 'weak standard', 'not fully sexually mature'. Just because you say so doesn't mean that your claim agrees with some objective truth. A muslim with this view would say that these are not weak standards at all.<br /><br />'The difference of opinion needs to be stressed because it undermines Yahya Snow's claim that Islamic Law is unambiguous on the matter of sex with pre-pubescent girls.'<br /><br />Do all differences of opinion need to be stressed? All worldviews have differences of opinion. That doesn't mean that the minority view should be regarded as representative of the worldview as a whole. <br /><br />Not only is this a minority view but it is very rarely practiced and should thus be seen as representative of islam as a whole. As soon as christian apolpogetics or other islamophobes find something they can criticize in islam they jump on it and imply that it is representative of the whole religion.el Lobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14098361439605791982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-7007768040756316942009-12-07T16:16:57.815-08:002009-12-07T16:16:57.815-08:00Zakaria:
Well the point of departure is both sexu...Zakaria:<br /><br /><i>Well the point of departure is both sexual and mental maturity. Every human being is different in that regard. These criteria are set so that no child is abused and at the same time minimizing the risk of pre-marital sex.</i><br /><br />If you don't think a girl has to be menstruating then you are not using the term "mature" to mean fully sexually developed. Such a weak standard of maturity will lead to child abuse.<br /><br /><i>Your statement is based on your worldview and is not something a muslim would agree with.</i><br /><br />Are you actually saying that Muslims deem pre-marital sex to be worse than sexually abusing a child? My statement is not based on my worldview but on the fact that the victims of sexual abuse suffer much, much more than those who engage in consensual pre-marital sex.<br /><br /><i>Remember I said some scholars not all have this view. If you have a problem with their view take it up with them or the people that defend that view.</i><br /><br />The difference of opinion needs to be stressed because it undermines Yahya Snow's claim that Islamic Law is unambiguous on the matter of sex with pre-pubescent girls.Jaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06413844619464733681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-61067758059884773752009-12-07T13:57:52.200-08:002009-12-07T13:57:52.200-08:00Jayman:
'I'd expect sexually abusing chil...Jayman:<br /><br />'I'd expect sexually abusing children to be deemed a bigger evil than pre-marital sex.'<br /><br />Well the point of departure is both sexual and mental maturity. Every human being is different in that regard. These criteria are set so that no child is abused and at the same time minimizing the risk of pre-marital sex. <br />Your statement is based on your worldview and is not something a muslim would agree with.<br />Remember I said some scholars not all have this view. If you have a problem with their view take it up with them or the people that defend that view. <br />Just because in general in islam early marriages are recommended it doesn't mean that all scholars have the same lower limit. Based on among other things this recommendation, some scholars put the lower limit to sexual and mental maturity with or without menses.el Lobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14098361439605791982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-256818275509621142009-12-06T13:01:05.520-08:002009-12-06T13:01:05.520-08:00Hello Zakaria:
Sexual maturity is defined in isla...Hello Zakaria:<br /><br /><i>Sexual maturity is defined in islam by some scholars on the basis of mental maturity and physical maturity.</i><br /><br />I note that you say only <b>some</b> Islamic scholars define sexual maturity on the basis of mental and physical maturity. Apparently Islamic Law is not as clear as Yahya Snow implies.<br /><br /><i>A girl can very well be both mentally and physically mature without having obtained her first menses.</i><br /><br />Define mature. You certainly can't mean that it refers to a girl who is fully developed for then she would be menstruating.<br /><br /><i>Puberty is a process in which menstruation is one part among others.</i><br /><br />True, but menstruation is often one of the last stages of puberty and thus a decent indicator that a girl <b>is</b> sexually mature as opposed to merely <b>becoming</b> sexually mature.<br /><br /><i>The reason why it is recommended in islam to marry as early as possible is to avoid sex outside the marriage.</i><br /><br />I'd expect sexually abusing children to be deemed a bigger evil than pre-marital sex.Jaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06413844619464733681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-51946290288623907732009-12-05T14:36:52.227-08:002009-12-05T14:36:52.227-08:00Jayman
Sexual maturity is defined in islam by som...Jayman<br /><br />Sexual maturity is defined in islam by some scholars on the basis of mental maturity and physical maturity. A girl can very well be both mentally and physically mature without having obtained her first menses. Puberty is a process in which menstruation is one part among others. <br />The reason why it is recommended in islam to marry as early as possible is to avoid sex outside the marriage.el Lobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14098361439605791982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-31469657614433630732009-11-01T11:19:03.086-08:002009-11-01T11:19:03.086-08:00Yahya Snow:
However, Maududi did not believe that...Yahya Snow:<br /><br /><i>However, Maududi did not believe that one could have sex with a pre-pubescent girl.</i><br /><br />Merely making this assertion is not helpful. I provided a quote from Maududi where he says it is permissible and you respond with a mere assertion. Please provide a quotation.<br /><br /><i>Muhammad did not perform such an act. This is testified to by Islamic Law.</i><br /><br />Whether Muhammad actually had sex with a pre-pubescent girl may be debatable on historical grounds. However, a key point you seem to be missing is that some Muslim sources, which I quoted, had no problem stating that Muhammad did have sex with Aisha before she reached puberty. Since no Muslim would intentionally make Muhammad out to be a sinner, these sources must have been ignorant of the Islamic Law you keep alluding to but cannot cite (I note you ignored my comments about your interpretation of the Quran).<br /><br /><i>It is sad that we (Muslims) have to continue to defend ourselves and our Prophet against appaling lies.</i><br /><br />You have to keep defending yourself because of what Muslims have done and said throughout the ages down to the present.Jaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06413844619464733681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-17073488530754256752009-11-01T02:30:18.232-08:002009-11-01T02:30:18.232-08:00Note...Muhammad did not perform such an act. This ...Note...Muhammad did not perform such an act. This is testified to by Islamic Law. It is sad that we (Muslims) have to continue to defend ourselves and our Prophet against appaling lies.<br /><br />PeaceYahya Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-14381272270751309312009-11-01T02:28:00.385-08:002009-11-01T02:28:00.385-08:00I appreciate your concern.
However, Maududi did ...I appreciate your concern. <br /><br />However, Maududi did not believe that one could have sex with a pre-pubescent girl. Islamic Law is very specific and disallows sex with pre-pubescent girls. Islamic Law is based on the Quran...therefore if the Quran did allow sex with prepubescent girls thane IslamicLaw would follow suit. That is not the case therefore both the Quran and Islamic Law do not allow sex with prepubescent girls.<br /><br />I have never met a Muslim thinks having sex with prepebescent girls is allowed. <br /><br />Most critics I have come across are biased towards Christianity or Atheism. Therefore their judgement and neutrality is always hindered. I would also note that all the famous (recognised) critics I have studied do NOT believe that the Quran allows sex with prepubescent girls. <br /><br />All the Scholars (Muslim and non-Muslim) agree with me.<br /><br />Therefore you seem to be awfully lonely in your cornerYahya Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-36986449104380627612009-08-22T21:34:43.016-07:002009-08-22T21:34:43.016-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06413844619464733681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-14925395091155968832009-08-22T17:03:50.068-07:002009-08-22T17:03:50.068-07:00Jayman...
I am not sure you have read the article...Jayman...<br /><br />I am not sure you have read the article. I am unsure as if you had read this article you would have noted that Islamic Law does not allow sex with immature girls. Islamic Law is based onthe Quran and the Sunnah. Therefore it is clear from Islamic Law that the Quran does not allow sex with immature girls.<br /><br />Jayman, all you do is interpolate your own corrupt understanding and views into text which do not support your claims.<br /><br />My question to you is; why are aome evangelical critics on the internet so eager to inaccurately portray the Quran as a Book which allows sex with immature girls? (Especially relevant as Muslims have show the evangelical critics to be incorrect).<br /><br />May Allah guide us all and bless us further in this month of Ramadan. AmeenYahya Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-1464659949273220512009-08-21T18:34:57.690-07:002009-08-21T18:34:57.690-07:00If what you say is true, how do you explain the fo...If what you say is true, how do you explain the following comments by Syed Abul Ala Maududi in <a href="http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65" rel="nofollow">Towards Understanding the Quran</a>?<br /><br />Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Qur'an the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consumation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible.Jaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06413844619464733681noreply@blogger.com