tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post3264880114186725954..comments2023-11-09T05:50:27.936-08:00Comments on The Facts About Islam: Samuel Green Debates with Ijaz AhmedYahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-55116148423799344612013-07-27T05:24:00.454-07:002013-07-27T05:24:00.454-07:00From Minoria:
I forgot to add this,which is more ...From Minoria:<br /><br />I forgot to add this,which is more technical.Reza Aslan must certainly know this,maybe Paul Williams also.<br /><br />I have pointed to these verses verses before but there is more than meets the eye:<br /><br />Mark 8:31(repeated in Matthew 16:21-23)(the first time Jesus said to his disciples he would die)<br /><br />Later in Mark 8:32-33(repeated in the Matthew version) PETER,later one of the 3 leaders of the church(with James and Paul):<br /><br />1.Is against what Jesus says<br /><br />2.Jesus hears it and calls him <b>Satan</b><br /><br />The 2 things meet the criterion of embarassment of the historical method(plus a double attestation).It would have been embarassing to say Peter had been against Jesus and even worse to have him called the Devil.<br /><br />It is very unlikely people would have invented that so the basic idea would come from the historical Jesus:his claim that he would die in his lifetime.<br /><br />ANOTHER REASON<br /><br />Judaism does not have the idea of a dying Messiah.<br /><br />1.The Messiah is not supposed to be killed or die,<br /><br />2.He will come and rule forever.<br /><br />The disciples,like Peter, and other Jews thought Jesus had a good claim to be the Messiah,and so Jesus saying he would die is in conformity with the <b>criterion of dissimilarity(it goes against the culture and beliefs of the society) of the historical method.</b><br /><br />It also has the criterion of multiple attestation of the historical method.<br /><br />ANOTHER CASE<br /><br />Mark 9:31(repeated in Luke 9:44-45)(the 2nd time Jesus told his disciples he would die)<br /><br />In Mark 9:32(and also in the Luke version),when the disciples hear it they do not understand him.<br /><br />That is also an element of embarassment,making them seem dumb,unlikely to be invented.But really it is not that they understood nothing,it is that in Judaism the idea of a <b>dying Messiah is an oxymoron,absurd,he will come and rule forever.</b><br /><br />Here the reaction of the disciples is in conformity with the <b>criterion of coherence(something in accord with the culture) of the historical method.</b><br /><br />ANOTHER CASE<br /><br />Luke 18:31-33(when Jesus told the disciples the third time he would die)<br /><br />In verse 34,that follows,again it is written the disciples did not understand,at all,what he was talking about.Again,element of embarassment and criterion of coherence.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-81262827482106779972013-07-26T22:00:22.758-07:002013-07-26T22:00:22.758-07:00From Minoria:
Hello Yahya:
The passages are here...From Minoria:<br /><br />Hello Yahya:<br /><br />The passages are here:<br /><br /><b>The Q source:</b><br /><br />Sign of Jonah saying:Matthew 12:40/Luke 11:29-30<br /><br />Also in Q Jesus says that his disciples must be willing to take up the cross to follow him(Matthew 16:24-26/Luke 9:23-24)The master can't demand more from his disciples than what he is willing to do,and taking up the cross means to die.<br /><br />In 3 of the gospels Jesus says he will be killed:<br /><br />First time:<br /><br />Mark 8:31: (repeated in Matthew 16:21/Luke 5:35)<br /><br />Second time<br /><br />Mark 9:31: (repetead in Matthew 17:22-23/Luke 9:44)<br /><br />Third time<br /><br />Mark 10:33-34: (repetead in Matthew 20:18-19/Luke 18:31-33)<br /><br /><b>The parable of the vineyard</b><br /><br />Here it is particularly convincing since it has no resurrection element,the body is just thrown over(an element highly unlikely to be included if it were made up)<br /><br />Mark 12:1-9:(repetead in Matthew 21:33-39/Luke 20:9-15)<br /><br /><b>A woman washes Jesus while alive,for his coming death</b><br /><br />Mark 14:3-8:(repeated in Matthew 26:-12,John 12:1-8)<br /><br /><b>Two extra passages in John</b><br /><br />John 2:18-22<br /><br />John 12:23-33<br /><br />Then another case in Matthew 27:62-64 (from the mouths of his enemies)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-75898355742050008752013-07-26T15:17:23.333-07:002013-07-26T15:17:23.333-07:00@minoria
What do you mean it makes him a false pr...@minoria<br /><br />What do you mean it makes him a false prophet?<br /><br />Where does Jesus predict he will be killed in a reliable source?<br /><br />Yahya Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-11517321834072189442013-07-26T14:59:32.357-07:002013-07-26T14:59:32.357-07:00Part 4
From Minoria:
In the Koran Jesus even say...Part 4<br /><br />From Minoria:<br /><br />In the Koran Jesus even says he would never have said anything contrary to what Allah would have wished.<br /><br />THE SITUATION IS THIS<br /><br />1.NT scholarship says the historical Jesus said several times he would be killed in his lifetime.The Koran says he never died.<br /><br />SO?<br /><br />That makes him a false prophet,it is a major thing,not a minor detail like "it will rain tomorrow"(and it does not).<br /><br />Also NT scholarship says the historical Jesus was wrong on the timing of his second coming.That makes him a false prophet on a major thing a second time.<br /><br />Paul Williams and Reza Aslan know all this,they know the technical reasons,so I don't know why they continue to accept their religious belief if,from the academic scholarship they accept,Jesus was a false prophet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-8100305100827871782013-07-26T14:52:35.488-07:002013-07-26T14:52:35.488-07:00From Minoria:
Part 3:
Now Williams and Aslan kno...From Minoria:<br /><br />Part 3:<br /><br />Now Williams and Aslan know all this,in fact Aslan in his interviews says he has a Phd in religion and is a scholar,academic.<br /><br />ABOUT ISLAM AND JESUS<br /><br />Williams and Aslan can not or should not deny what Islam says about Jesus:<br /><br />1.He was a prophet.<br /><br />2.He will return a second time(it appears in hadiths)<br /><br />3.He was never killed(the Koran says so)<br /><br />THERE IS MORE<br /><br />The Koran also says Jesus will die and resurrect again.Muslims say this means:<br /><br />When Jesus returns again he will die and be resurrected.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-56822539432820679282013-07-26T14:48:01.503-07:002013-07-26T14:48:01.503-07:00From Minoria
Part 2
REZA ASLAN's LATEST BOO...From Minoria <br /><br />Part 2<br /><br />REZA ASLAN's LATEST BOOK<br /><br />It is <b>"Zealot:the Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth"(2013)</b> where he says that Jesus was in favor of overthrowing the Roman power in Palestine,in other words,would even be in favor of a violent revolution.<br /><br />NOW ABOUT NT SCHOLARSHIP AND JESUS<br /><br />Paul Williams and Reza Aslan are not the typical Muslim (or typical Christian) who know nothing about NT scholarly debates about Jesus.They know the conclusions.And that scholarship says:<br /><br />1.Even the most radical NT group(except for 3 or 4 guys who say Jesus never existed),the atheistic,skeptical Jesus Seminar(who don't accept Jesus resurrected)accept as very probable that the <b>historical Jesus said,repeatedly,that he would be killed SOON,in his lifetime.</b>It appears in sayings even the Jesus Seminar accepts,according to their method.<br /><br />2.And that the historical Jesus said he would could back a second time,in "this generation".And it didn't happened,so he was a failed apocalyptic prophet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-23925291789632111522013-07-26T14:37:46.924-07:002013-07-26T14:37:46.924-07:00From Minoria:
Part I
The way I see it is this,re...From Minoria:<br /><br />Part I<br /><br />The way I see it is this,regarding Jesus not knowing everything,<b>not even the hour of his second coming</b>.Any NT scholar will tell you that passage passes the criterion of embarassment of the historical method.It has no propaganda value.<br /><br />For a Muslim,that is ok,he was not God,just a man,he didn't know everything.<br /><br />ABOUT PAUL WILLIAMS AND REZA ASLAN<br /><br />1.Now they are now both Muslim,by self-definition.<br /><br />2.They both began as non-Christians,who later converted to Christianity.<br /><br />3.Reza Aslan says he began as a nominal Muslim.His father later became an atheist and his mother a Christian,ex-Muslims.He came to the US at the age of 7 and became an evangelical Christian at 15,then was a believer for several years,then began studying Christianity in the university and lost his faith.<br /><br />4.Reza then became a Muslim again and Paul Williams became a Muslim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-72129525572007863222013-07-26T12:03:01.313-07:002013-07-26T12:03:01.313-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-9468377481101746922013-07-25T23:41:38.765-07:002013-07-25T23:41:38.765-07:00What r the last two comments to do with this?
Th...What r the last two comments to do with this? <br /><br />This post no about radical. What a hater this Muslim be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-85992305044367800332013-07-25T21:45:40.055-07:002013-07-25T21:45:40.055-07:00Radical moderate is a haterRadical moderate is a haterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com