tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2482349312665508222024-03-13T01:05:36.712-07:00The Facts About IslamYahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comBlogger2074125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-4061642362578524662018-05-22T17:28:00.001-07:002018-05-22T17:39:01.686-07:00Is This Hatun Tash’s Vile Slander Against “Dawah Team”?<br />
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The tweet is in unclear English but it does appear as though the author of this tweet (Hatun Tash?) is suggesting the “dawah team” (I think this is a catchall term anti-Islam Christian “evangelists” are using for any Muslim who they encounter resistance from or whom is preaching Islam) supports grooming gangs – sexual abuse and rape of girls. A nasty and malicious suggestion showing the heart of the author of the tweet. If it is Hatun Tash, it would keep in with her past inflammatory behaviour towards Muslims, she suggested Muslims who helped the Grenfell Tower fire victims <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaDaRra0j6M" target="_blank">were only doing so because of the cameras</a> and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-nMMUrwgI4" target="_blank">she thanked God for the death of a Muslim</a> who used to preach to Christians. <br />
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If that’s what he/she is suggesting then that is clearly vile slander. Just because somebody is unwilling to discuss “grooming gangs” with you, specifically you, (an antagonistic anti-Islam Christian) it does not mean that they agree with or support grooming gangs. Quite how somebody can reach that conclusion is beyond me. <br />
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Muslims<a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23087686" target="_blank"> have repeatedly denounced grooming gangs.</a> It’s obvious grooming gangs are not acting according to Islam as alcohol, drugs and rape are all unislamic. To suggest criminals involved in such abuse are acting Islamic is to throw aside common sense for one’s agenda of propaganda.<br />
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CJ Davis of St Nicholas Church in Tooting is asked to check whether this tweet comes from one of his church members. By their fruit ye shall know them. Anti-Muslim propaganda, vile slander and deceit are not what one would consider to be good fruit.<br />
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Given the recent story <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-44205985?ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social" target="_blank">about the Australian archbishop Philip Wilson concerning sexual abuse cover up</a>,the report<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJIvjuTEr6c" target="_blank"> about the former archbishop of the Church of England, George Carey</a>, and the <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/10/church-of-england-faced-3300-sexual-abuse-claims-figures-reveal" target="_blank">news report which states the CofE is facing more than 3,300 allegations</a> one must wonder whether the person behind this tweet is getting in the face of Church of England clergy and members (perhaps folks like Robert Schofield, Joe Gawley and CJ Davis) and asking them to condemn sexual abuse and groomers in the Church of England? And if they refuse to interact with you because they feel offended or just feel like you’re trying to point score by taking advantage of church abuse scandals would you say they “support” sexual abuse in churches?<br />
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Or are the news stories of brown folks with Muslim names in sexual grooming scandals just being used as a stick for evangelical “Christian” propaganda? By their fruit ye shall know them. I think weaponising sexual abuse victims and their pain for evangelical and/or anti-Islam propaganda is a sign of bad fruit, specially in the post-Brexit vote climate we find ourselves in. Like somebody is going to sign on the dotted line and join the CofE or any other church because of such shallow tactics.<br />
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I await answers from CJ Davis.<br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a> <br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/newcastle-muslims-disguested-by.html">Newcastle Muslims Disgusted by Grooning Gangs</a> <br />
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<a href="https://medium.com/search?q=dcci%20ministries" target="_blank">Responses for St Nicholas Church Tooting, DCCI Ministries and Lizzie Schofield</a><br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/first-cofe-church-to-allow-polygamous.html" target="_blank">Lizzie Schofield and the Polygamy Discussion</a><br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/dcci-ministries-cj-davis-islamophobia.html">DCCI Ministries, CJ Davis, Islamophobia, Low Level Evangelical Polemics and the Bible</a> <br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/church-of-england-traditionalist.html" target="_blank">A response to Gavin Ashenden</a><br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/muslim-christian-discussion-on-numbers.html" target="_blank">St Nicholas Church Asked To Explain Numbers 31</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-uses-1-john-222-to-attack.html">Christian Uses 1 John 2:22 To Attack Prophet Muhammad (p)</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html">Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/a-difficulty-on-christian-idea-of.html">A Difficulty On the Christian Idea of Salvation and Forgiveness</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/synoptic-gospels-and-idea-of-pre.html">Synoptic Gospels and the Idea of a Pre-Existant Jesus?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/christian-inconsistency-around.html">Christian Inconsistency Around Arguments for Prophet Muhammad in the Bible</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/paula-fredriksen-paul-was-not.html">Paula Fredriksen: Paul was NOT a Trinitarian</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-16785778803832356812018-05-22T16:25:00.003-07:002018-05-23T06:01:59.561-07:00Newcastle Muslims Disgusted by Grooming GangsFollowing similar patterns of abuse in Rochdale, Rotherham and Oxford, the convictions have provoked fresh national debate over whether select minorities should be taking responsibility.<br />
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Dipu Ahad, Newcastle councillor, said local Muslims were “absolutely disgusted” by their crimes and feared a possible backlash. <a href="https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grooming-gang-newcastle-asian-pakistani-bangladeshi-muslim-response-faith-leaders-operation-shelter-a7888946.html" target="_blank">[Independent]</a><br />
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<strong>Do Muslims Condemn Grooming Gangs? Tommy Robinson Supporters Answered</strong>
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Video also uploaded <a href="https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6k3zzj" target="_blank">here</a> and <a href="https://youtu.be/M0lNO93-Ky8" target="_blank">here</a><br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">The sexual grooming of children has been condemned by Muslim leaders across the UK in a sermon read to thousands of worshippers.<br /><br />Organisers Together Against Grooming (TAG) said imams at hundreds of mosques had pledged to read the sermon to congregations during Friday prayers.<br /><br />The sermon highlighted how the Koran emphasised that Muslims must protect children and the vulnerable.<br /><br />The policing minister Damian Green said it was a "very important" move.<br /><br />"It reminds people that the vast majority, the overwhelming majority, of British Muslims, condemn child sexual abuse as strongly as any other group in modern Britain," he said.<br /><br />Sheikh Ibrahim Mogra, an imam at Abu Bakr Mosque in Leicester, said: "People were troubled by us reading the sermon and one man asked me how he could stop it being read.<br /><br />"He said 'it was not our fault this had happened, our religion does not teach us to do these things and we are condemning it'.<br /><br />"But as I said to him our only option is to speak out about it."<br /><br />Mr Mogra added the sermon's message was very clear "this is an evil against humanity" and he was "absolutely delighted with the response".</span></em> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23087686" target="_blank">[BBC News]</a>Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-71194132630173935582018-05-21T13:09:00.000-07:002018-05-21T13:09:01.426-07:00Church Of England Traditionalist Unhappy With Bishop Michael CurryGavin Ashenden (GA) has been spilling a bit of cyber-ink over Michael Curry’s speech at the royal wedding. I’ve responded with a few thoughts to some select comments which grabbed my attention.<br /> <br />GA: <em><span style="color: #20124d;">And at one level, the choice was brilliant. Michael Curry is a gifted preacher and black. What a great way of signalling the coming together of American and British culture, white and coloured.<br /> Surely the marriage of Meghan and Harry was the fusion of American and British culture. The fusion of BLACK and “coloured”.</span></em><br /><br />Me: For Gavin Ashenden’s benefit, “white” people are “coloured” too. Every human is “coloured” so to use the word simply for non-white people implies “white” is the default <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/30999175/warning-why-using-the-term-coloured-is-offensive" target="_blank">as highlighted in the BBC article explaining why the word “coloured” could be deemed problematic.</a><br /><br />The use of the word “coloured” seems archaic. Next time, perhaps it will be wiser to just use the colour of the person you’re talking about: black (Michael Curry), white (Justin Welby), and brown (Jesus). Let’s not be seeing the word “coloured” to describe black people again. Yes, I just slapped Gavin’s wrist. Ever so lightly. No big deal.<br /><br />GA: <em><span style="color: #20124d;">So when Justin Welby suggested Michael Curry as the preacher on this astonishing world-wide stage, he was also signing up one of the most effective street fighters for progressive, distorted Christianity who – with great charm and verve – presents his own preferred version of Jesus to the real one we find in the Gospels.</span></em><br /><br />The 4 Church gospels are not reliable, Gavin Ashenden needs to stop being so bold in his claims he can find the “real” Jesus in there. Likewise with Church traditions such as the 4th century belief of the Trinity, this is clearly a belief Jesus never knew about never mind believed in.<br /> In sum, just don’t take the Church ‘s doctrines as authoritative nor the texts it claims to be “inspired”.<br /><br /> GA: <span style="color: #20124d;"><em>This matters very much. Curry’s Jesus is preoccupied with social Justice and the celebration of romance and sexual love wherever it finds you. The real Jesus warned that social justice would never happen in this world, that heterosexual marriage [sic] was to be between a man and a woman, and that equality had nothing to do with the Kingdom of Heaven.<br /> Curry twists that round and turns it upside down. He says Jesus likes homosexual marriage and favours the quest for equality that left-wing politicians have made their life’s work. Curry says wherever you find ‘love’ you have found God. But when Jesus defines love it sounds very different from Curry.</em></span><br /><br />This is Gavin Ashenden blowing his bugle. He’s really up for the scrap to halt the gay marriage juggernaut which is running through the CofE. This is admirable as it’s obvious marriage can only be between male and female. Folks who are trying to subvert this rule are folks who are pushing the envelope of an agenda which has nothing to do with any religion at all (no matter how assidually shills operating in religious organisations, churches mainly, toil for that irreligious agenda)<br /><br />I’d like to posit three points for consideration:<br /><br />1. Michael Curry did not mention gay marriage in his speech but he did mention Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv7M76D1X38" target="_blank">rejected the idea of Jesus being deity</a> (amongst other doctrines) and thus was not a Christian. Why is Gavin Ashenden not out to bat for the idea of Jesus being deity, Trinity doctrine and other beliefs King rejected? <br /><br /> 2. Gavin Ashenden may want to aim his bugle at folks closer to home. It’s the members of the CofE who will ultimately decide to usher gay marriage in to the Church of England, which looks increasingly likely. More CofE members believe gay marriage is right than those who say it’s wrong. YouGov suggested45% of Church of England followers felt same-sex marriage was right, against 37% who believed it wrong [<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/30/new-poll-shows-more-anglicans-back-gay-marriage_n_9118620.html?1454146774">stats sourced from Huffington Post</a>]. Get blowing that bugle long and loud, Gavin. Knock on the doors of the mosques to get a crowd behind you against the concept of gay marriage (Muslims really don’t want the LGBTQ pressure lobby to begin taking aim at mosques after they’ve finished with the churches and a churchmen). Once the churchmen capitulate, it’s the Muslims and the Jews who will be targeted.<br /><br /> 3. Was there not a sinful union taking place according to the biblical injunction forbidding divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:32) as Meghan Markle has been divorced and thus this was a “further marriage”. And who was there to deliver that message to Charles and Camilla despite their union having been “blessed” by the CofE ‘s Rowan Williams? It all seems a little odd that we see little opposition to the surrendering of faithfulness to the Bible in favour of secular and social affirmation in the regard of the bolted horses (divorce-remarriage) but the horse which is about to bolt (heterosexual marriage) is the one which the bugle blowing is all about. If the churchmen blew their bugles and waved them around enough in the past (on divorce and remarriage, before that church silence on sex before marriage) perhaps they would not be seen as people who are ready to sell out their traditions and beliefs for worldly acceptance. I wonder if Gavin Ashenden has ever preached a sermon against sex before marriage, that’s something the CofE seems quite silent on. Very little bugle waving and blowing there. The vast majority of the CofE probably reject or are ignorant about the 4th century doctrine of the Trinity, how much bugle blowing are we hearing about this? The volume is as low as those preaching against divorce. Almost complete silence.<br /><br /> GA: <em><span style="color: #20124d;">There is a civil war raging at the moment in Anglicanism (and elsewhere) between progressive Christianity that takes its priorities from the zeitgeist, the present culture, and a faithful orthodox belief</span></em><br /><br />“A civil war”? From an outsider looking in, it looks more like a few mealy mouthed Anglicans speaking in opposition to gay marriage (with a few folk less mealy-mouthed, like Gavin Ashenden) just like they are/were doing so with respect to opposing female bishops. If you want to listen to a typical mealy mouthed effort against female bishops pull up the archive of CJ Davis’ session on female bishops at St Nicholas Church Tooting. The man seemed to me, at least, to be uncertain, lacking confidence and afraid of stepping on egg shells placed there by present culture. That is what the zeitgeist does to churchmen.<br /><br /> One thing is true, serving the present culture will make a hypocrite out of everyone and anyone.<br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a><br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/first-cofe-church-to-allow-polygamous.html">First CofE Church To Allow Polygamous Marriage?</a> <br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/dishonest-misisonaries-claiming-prophet.html">Dishonest Misisonaries Claiming Prophet Muhammad Allowed Beating Of Slaves</a> <br /><br /><a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/thoughts-on-paul-williams-debate-on.html">Thoughts on Paul Williams' Debate on Slavery With a Christian Lady</a> <br /><br /><a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/muslim-christian-discussion-on-numbers.html" target="_blank">St Nicholas Church Asked To Explain Numbers 31</a><br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-uses-1-john-222-to-attack.html">Christian Uses 1 John 2:22 To Attack Prophet Muhammad (p)</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html">Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/a-difficulty-on-christian-idea-of.html">A Difficulty On the Christian Idea of Salvation and Forgiveness</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/synoptic-gospels-and-idea-of-pre.html">Synoptic Gospels and the Idea of a Pre-Existant Jesus?</a> <br /><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/christian-inconsistency-around.html">Christian Inconsistency Around Arguments for Prophet Muhammad in the Bible</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/paula-fredriksen-paul-was-not.html">Paula Fredriksen: Paul was NOT a Trinitarian</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span><br /> </div>
<br />Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-71864271498921160012018-05-16T10:34:00.000-07:002018-05-16T10:34:45.647-07:00First CofE Church To Allow Polygamous Marriage?Really quickly (yeah right!), one of<a href="https://medium.com/search?q=dcci%20ministries" target="_blank"> Tooting's St Nicholas Church’s members</a> has been talking about polygamy again. Being swamped in Islamophobia, it’s just gushy zeitgeist and dated feminist propaganda for the evangelical wing of the Church of England – basically saying Islam is inferior to Christianity because Islam allows polygamy and Christianity (according to her strained interpretation) does not.<br />
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Yeah, like a bunch of Muslims and secularists around the world are going to start worshipping the Middle Eastern man the Church of England worship, Prophet Jesus, because of such shallow propaganda snuff.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Martin Luther never thought the Bible banned polygamy</span></strong><br />
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I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. <a href="http://whatdidluthersayaboutpolygamy.blogspot.co.uk/" target="_blank">[Martin Luther]</a><br />
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This will raise a few Protestant Church eyebrows. In the case of the aging CofE, zimmer-frames, painted on eyebrows, Conservative party membership cards and walking sticks.<br />
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Martin Luther, as <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BJH-eV9ohg" target="_blank">previously mentioned to a "robust" questioner</a>, did not believe anything in the Bible (including the New Testament texts) forbade polygyny.<br />
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Who was Martin Luther, only a massive spark for the Protestant movement and the subsequent Protestant Church.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Augustine</span></strong> <br />
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We’ve already mentioned Augustine to Islamophobes. <br />
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"Saint Augustine believed that the Bible allowed for polygamy, but only for the purpose of procreation and only if the law of the land allowed it" <a href="http://whatdidaugustinesayaboutpolygamy.blogspot.co.uk/" target="_blank">[Source]</a><br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Dated feminism of Lizzie Schofield (and St Nicholas Church Tooting)</span></strong><br />
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I highly suspect the lurch to the anti-polygamy pews is actually based on what these people believe to be feminism and the zeitgeist (spirit of the age). In true Church of England fashion, the spirit of the age is highly influential in interpreting the Bible – you don’t end up sitting on billions of quid worth of assets if you’re not mindful of public and governmental opinion. Church of England members increasingly support the ordination female priests simply because of the public opinion in Britain moving in that direction.<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17En7x2IG14" target="_blank"> It’s seen as bigoted and anti-woman to not allow females to have overall leadership in churches</a>, the Church of England folk obligingly alter their hermeneutical approach and abandon previous leanings which do not comply with the spirit of the age. Even those (largely older members like CJ Davis) who offer resistance do it mealy mouthed. If somebody can pull up the archived sermon of CJ Davis’ “hot-potato” discussion on female clergy you’ll see what I mean. That could be put forward as a dictionary example of “mealy-mouthed”. CJ, this is my observation which I feel many others will share around your handling of that discussion. I suspect that uneasiness and lack of confidence was because you were going against the zeitgeist. I wonder what you’d have advised King Henry VIII back in the day...assuming you weren’t knocking about back in those days and actually advising him (just some silly banter!).<br />
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A growing number of CofE folks are in favour of gay marriage, in fact, it’s the majority of folks in the CofE<span style="background-color: #fff3db; color: black; display: inline; float: none; font-family: "georgia" , "times new roman" , sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"> [</span><i style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #fff3db; color: black; font-family: Georgia, "Times New Roman", sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration-color: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="color: #660000;">YouGov suggested<b>45% of Church of England followers felt same-sex marriage was right</b>, against 37% who believed it wrong</span></i><span style="background-color: #fff3db; color: black; display: inline; float: none; font-family: "georgia" , "times new roman" , sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"> [</span><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/30/new-poll-shows-more-anglicans-back-gay-marriage_n_9118620.html?1454146774" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #fff3db; color: #956839; font-family: Georgia, "Times New Roman", sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: underline; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;" target="_blank">stats sourced from Huffington Post</a><span style="background-color: #fff3db; color: black; display: inline; float: none; font-family: "georgia" , "times new roman" , sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">]. </span> . You know what’s going to happen, they are going to change their approach and interpret the Bible to allow gay marriage. It’s already happened in some "Christian" quarters. Serving the spirit of the age.<br />
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The same, if past CofE hypocritical trends are anything to go by, will happen with plural marriage. Polyamory is an idea in the modern feminism. An opportunity for some light-hearted banter with CJ Davis, St Nicholas Church’s chief! Don’t get excited CJ Davis, the Church will probably have a different hermeneutic based on 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 for church leaders. In any case, you’ll be retired by the time they get to thinking about cashing in on plural marriages. They’ve got their hands full with women bishops and gay weddings right now after the Church's drawn-out fight to overcome the biblical opposition to remarriage and divorce. <br />
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My theory is that men in the Church of England <a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/does-holy-spirit-work-within-christians.html" target="_blank">(the vast majority, 75%, of whom are struggling with porn dependency</a>) have a teenage-boyish wet-dream view when they think of polygamy. As for the church women, being insecure and knowing the perversions their churchmen are afflicted with loudly rail against polygyny simply because they fear their churchmen secretly want it. But in reality, if they had the ability to be more mature, nuanced and fair minded they’d see polygamy as a healthy alternative for a number of women around the world - with special emphasis on those in poorer countries. It basically gives women more choice, in fact, the feminist ideal is built on widening the choice women have. Would there not be an argument to say it’s anti-feminist to deny women the right to share a husband. I’m not arguing from a feminist stand-point and I think the widening of choice narrative ultimately leads to unregulated plural relationships (not even marriages) which both the Christian (well, the dying breed of Christian who is not hypocritically following the zeitgeist and who actually accepts the Bible as an authority wholsesale) and the Muslim would believe to be unacceptable.<br />
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Now, we’re seeing a new tangent in feminism, I strongly suspect St Nicholas Church’s resident staunch feminist, Lizzie Schofield, (well,<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGZ1lf4MW8E" target="_blank"> staunch feminist when she’s bashing Islam but not so much a whimpering feminist when it comes to her Trinitarian Church beliefs about Jesus</a> – hypocrisy is rife in the CofE – nothing new to see here) is not aware of this movement against monogamy.<br />
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I’ll just dump a couple of quotes from Laurie Penny below and leave it to folks to use their brains. Men at St Nicholas church, please do not go pestering the clergy at your church to allow polyamory. I’m not advocating unfettered polyamory. I’m just saying a regulated form of polygyny does provide women a good alternative and a useful option in real life, especially women outside our cultural and geographical parameters so it just seems really shallow and culturally imperialistic of the CofE to bash Islam and denounce Islamic regulations on polygamy [<strong>the man can only marry another woman (maximum 4) if he has the financial means and ability to look after the wives equally [and for the immature churchmen, nope get your minds out of the gutter, they aren’t all allowed to have sex together. In fact, it’s the same churchmen who have an unhealthy fascination with the Muslim belief that there is sex in Paradise, so what if there’s sex in Paradise? If Paradise is going to be better than this life then it will have the best of the physical (food, friendships, companionship, clothing housing etc.) and the best of the spiritual (the relationship to God which is the ultimate experience in Paradise, far superseding the physical). Of course, the promise of better material in an everlasting Paradise helps keep the Muslim away from the ephemeral pursuits in this life which ultimately makes the Muslim less worldly and more charitable</strong>].<br />
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What was that, CJ Davis or whoever instructs DCCI Ministries to fling low-level polemical mud at Islam in an effort to bring people into the Church and worship a man (Jesus)? You want the crew to ignore that common sense above, find some Muslims who don’t know English or aren’t too knowledgeable to counter the dishonest polemics and just continue reeling off the same sex-obsessed polemics against Islam in a numbers game hoping somebody is stupid/ignorant enough to sign on the Church dotted line...is the CofE trying to rack up the idiot and the part-time feminist count in the Church?<br />
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This is the same Church of England which is not meant to allow divorce (unless for adultery) and not allow divorced women to remarry. Just look at how Justin Welby “dealt with” the remarriage of Megan Markle (a divorcee), Was that to get the big wedding of the summer (and presumably big money spinner for the CofE) on? Is that tumbleweed blowing past St Nicholas Church and Lambeth Palace? Yep, in my opinion the CofE has been embarrassing Britain for centuries and still going strong!<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Laurie Penny quotes:</span></strong><br />
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<em><span style="color: #990000;">“Paradoxically, as the moral grip of religious patriarchy has loosened its hold in the West, the doctrine of </span></em><a href="http://www.whimn.com.au/talk/people/scarlett-johansson-doesnt-think-monogamy-is-natural/news-story/6fd7c1c9f083a8720f9884f82a23744a"><em><span style="color: #990000;">monogamous romance</span></em></a><em><span style="color: #990000;"> has become ever more entrenched. Marriage was once understood as a practical, domestic arrangement that involved a certain amount of self-denial. Now your life partner is also supposed to answer your every intimate and practical need, from orgasms to organising the school run.</span></em><br />
<em><span style="color: #990000;">Polyamory is a response to the understanding that, for a great many of us, that ideal is impractical, if not an active source of unhappiness. People have all sorts of needs at different times in their lives – for love, companionship, care and intimacy, sexual adventure and self-expression – and expecting one person to be able to meet them all is not just unrealistic, it’s unreasonable. Women in particular, who often end up doing the bulk of the emotional labour in traditional, monogamous, heterosexual relationships, don’t have the energy to be anyone’s everything.<br /><br />I don’t expect anyone to be everything to me. I want my freedom, and I want to be ethical, and I also want care and affection and pleasure in my life. I guess I’m greedy. I guess I’m a woman who wants to have it all. It’s just that my version of ‘having it all’ is a little different from the picture of marriage, mortgage and monogamy to which I was raised to aspire.”</span></em><br />
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<em><span style="color: #4c1130;">“</span></em><em><span style="color: #4c1130;">Personally, I started practising non-monogamy in my early 20s as a statement against the tyranny of the heterosexual couple form and the patriarchal nuclear family”</span> </em><br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Do St Nicholas Church believe Jesus cares about women in all cultures?</span></strong><br />
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The Trinitarian version of Jesus is very much different to the historical Jesus. The historical Jesus is believed<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDZ6vKU9Pc&t=66s" target="_blank"> to have allowed the torture of wives (and the subsequent forced-abortion of any foetuses they were carrying) via the bitter water test instigated by a husband who suspects his wife of infidelity</a>. Nor is the historical Jesus believed to have<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDZ6vKU9Pc&t=66s" target="_blank"> allowed the severe beating of female slaves with a rod.</a><br />
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The Church of England is culturally one-dimensional in my view. You’d expect it to be, it’s the Church of ENGLAND. Crikey, I’ve capitalised “England”, looking over my shoulder in case anybody thinks I’m part of the bigoted EDL or the nutty “Christian group” of Britain First. <br />
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CJ Davis, I’ve <a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/lizzie-schofield-ignoring-facts-and.html" target="_blank">previously highlighted, to at least one of your local church members in Tooting, the damaging consequences around imposing English “Christian” cultural mores onto other cultures with respect to age of consent</a>. Less cultural imperialism and triumphalism for the Church, more careful thought is the order of the day!<br />
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When Congolese village women, where swathes of men have been killed in civil war, are struggling to find husbands because of the shortage of men, do you really think polygamy should be banned based on a biblical hermeneutic geared to modern day Britain where we, thankfully (thanking God, not Jesus) have stability and peace in comparison to war-torn lands (war-torn lands largely because of Western, culturally “Christian”, intervention/proxy). What you’re essentially doing here is denying those foreign women the right of protection, financial stability, possibly housing and obviously children by forbidding them to marry a man who is willing to look after her as a second wife. Islam’s teachings offer these practical solutions whilst the Church of England’s teachings (as of today, subject to change tomorrow) offers nothing in practical options.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">The Bible and polygamy – unconvincing hermeneutics by the Church of England for the spirit of the age</span></strong><br />
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The Bible is not even clear on prohibiting polygamy, and in parts it permits polygamy by offering regulating teachings for men with wives. But hey, this is the Church of England and the Church of England will mould its texts and change its stance to fit in with what they believe to be the prevailing wind of the zeitgeist and/or self-interest (£££££££££££ and power imo). Is this not the same institution that was essentially started as King Henry VIII wanted another wife because his first wife did not bear a male heir? The irony here is, the Church of England would not have existed if Henry was allowed to marry a second wife via polygyny (or if Rome were as servile as the CofE to the requests of English monarchs) the split from the main Church was due to Henry wanting to annul* his marriage to Catherine in order to marry Anne Boleyn. Thus, the Church of England was born. What an acrimonious and contentious start to the institution, the Church of England. The CofE has been embarrassing Britain for centuries...and it’s still going!<br />
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<strong>*CJ Davis may be the only person reading who will know what I’m talking about here – CJ feel free to correct me on this or add to my knowledge. From my understanding Henry was not after a divorce, he wanted an annulment. Henry VIII actually opposed divorced so it’s a misconception to think the CofE was formed because a king wanted a “divorce”. The ditty Divorced-Beheaded-Died:Divorced-Beheaded-Survived (or whatever it is!) is probably a little inaccurate, an annulment in those times may just have been a way to get a divorce without it being called a divorce although Henry was using Leviticus to argue his first marriage was invalid if I'm nto mistaken. The CofE has traditionally been staunch against divorce as well as remarriage. There were about 300 people who were granted divorce (and allowed to remarry) by the CofE between the 1600s and the 1800ish (?) at the request of the government . Remarriage (if you had a living spouse) was only allowed from 2002 in the CofE. Is that all pretty correct? I’d be interested in knowing how clergy like you feel about this and how you reconcile this in your mind to continue to work for this institute. I’d also be interested in knowing if YOU would conduct the marriage of Megan and Harry, if you were asked to? If so, what would your reasoning be to allow itIf not, are you or your bishop be matched with more traditional (and biblical) members of the CofE for “theological affinity” on divorce and remarriage? I would love to hear your thoughts</strong><br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Talking about embarrassments, the “I’ll throw the Bible under the bus to bash Islam” attitude in the CofE continues</span></strong><br />
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Elizabeth Schofield’s (representing St Nicholas Church Tooting) premise in arguing against polygyny in the Bible is based on the “one flesh verse” (Genesis 2:24 and Matt 19:4-6).<br />
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Surely Elizabeth Schofield knows she and/or her colleagues in anti-Islam polemics have been told that the traditional Church view is that Moses wrote Genesis 2:24, yet he was a polygamist (had more than one wife!) so either you’re saying Moses was a hypocrite (and thus a large portion of your Bible was written by a hypocrite according to you and your Church) or that Moses did not understand the teachings he was passing on to his community. Both beliefs would lead you to question whether Moses was a prophet – talking about Moses and the Bible <a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/pfanders-beth-grove-asked-to-apolgise.html" target="_blank">I would love to hear the Church in Tooting to apologise to a Muslim who brought up a passage in Numbers</a>. Or perhaps you’ve got some complicated hermeneutics like those who try to shoe-horn the 4th century (and obviously false) doctrine of the Trinity into the Bible to avoid this dilemma? I’m all ears. CJ Davis or Robert Schofield, do you lads (adding a more working class vibe as CJ “probably never had a pot-noodle or been to a football match” Davis shudders!) care to butt in as expositors of the Bible? Thought not!<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">I’m just rehashing an old piece I based on Mark Henkel’s lecture on the Bible and polygamy:</span></strong><br />
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The prohibition on adultery is not given in English, it was given in Hebrew. Mark Henkel teaches the Hebrew word for 'adultery' means WOMAN who breaks wed-lock. Thus through the Hebrew we see that polygamy of a man marrying more than one wife is not adultery.<br />
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And we must also keep in mind Mark Henkel's important reminder of Christian belief, Moses is believed to have written down the Law prohibiting adultery yet he had more than one wife thus showing to Christians and Jews that polygamy of a man marrying more than one wife is NOT adultery.<br />
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As for the two will be one flesh. Mark Henkel states this does not mean you cannot be one flesh with more than one woman as Moses was a polygamist.<br />
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Mark Henkel points out that the Bible <strong>also teaches one can become 'one flesh' with a prostitute. Mark Henkel contends this means that the person can be 'one flesh' with his wife and 'one flesh' with a prostitute.</strong><br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[</span></em><a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28484b"><em><span style="color: #660000;">b</span></em></a><em><span style="color: #660000;">] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.</span></em> [1 Corinthians 6]<br />
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Mark Henkel believes the understanding of adultery and the one-flesh passage are not in contradiction with Polygamy<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Do they believe Jesus gave wives (notice, plural!) to David?</span></strong><br />
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The fact that the Church of England (essentially) believe Jesus gave David multiple wives and would have given him more wives if David wanted and that they believe Jesus gave orders regulating polygamy (not forbidding it) is kind of overlooked. A hermeneutical approach which panders to the spirit of the age or the spirit of a government, pretty close to the framework Archbishop Cranmer was operating in for Henry, what say you CJ Davis? Time for more Mark Henkel logic...<br />
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Mark Henkel says David had numerous wives and according to the Bible, God gave David those wives and if he wanted more God would have given more:<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">8<strong> I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s <u>wives</u></strong><u> </u>into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. <u>And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more</u></span></em>. [2 Samuel 12:8]<br />
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Matthew 25, as mentioned by Mark Henkel, contains a parable of a polygamous bridegroom.<br />
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Under the Old Testament Law Polygamy was never banned. It was simply regulated<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">If he <strong>marries another woman</strong>, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.</span></em> [Exodus 21:10]<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">15<strong> If a man has two wives</strong>, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, 16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. 17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.</span></em> [Deuteronomy 21:15-17]<br />
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See Mark Henkel on Polygamy and the Bible<br />
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<strong><span style="color: yellow;"><span style="background-color: yellow; color: black;">Unintelligible sloganeering from CofE’s Lizzie Schofield</span> </span></strong><br />
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Lizzie: <em>The reason polygamy persists in Islam, apart from the fact that it is sanctioned forever by Allah’s eternal speech, the Qur’an, is because Allah is not a personal, covenantal god.</em> [I guess they believe Martin Luther believed in a God who is not “personal”, whatever that means. I guess they believe the Jews believe in a God who is not personal. Whatever that means. It’s the type of emotion you’ll hear verbalised from an Alpha Course influenced “Christian”, it’s of course rather unintelligible but it seems like a staple slogan for evangelicals nowadays (perhaps the Church's constant bashing of Islam for polygamy is, in part, due to xenophobia in the Church where it pits Arabs and other Eastern foreign men as abusers of women whilst the men of the Church of England are the white - quite literally white in most cases - knights of women? I don't know, are there any fair-minded church leaders to talk about this maturely and honestly rather than leaving it to the more shrill and Islamophobic types amongst CofE members who are just interested in doing low level evangelical propaganda). I wonder what they will change the slogan to *when* gay marriage and plural marriages become more accepted by the Church. I wonder whether<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzla2RJDobU" target="_blank"> their belief that Jesus will return with a sword for Muslim men and women has any bearing on their “personal god” slogan</a>? I wonder if they think Jesus, a Middle Eastern man, is a personal god because they believe he’s going to return in person with a sword for those unwilling to accept Paul of Tarsus as a prophet, the Church and its Trinity doctrine A flurry of questions for CJ Davis, which I’m sure he will not bother trying to answer as he goes through the Anglican motions holding on for retirement. Nominalism is probably more prevalent in the Church of England than xenophobia despite Rev. Root’s belief the CofE is institutionally racist.]<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Will St Nicholas Church in Tooting be the first to hold a polygamous wedding?</span></strong><br />
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Unlikely given the current incumbents there, I would not advise anybody to bank on it. Who knows, if public opinion continues to move away from compulsory monogamous relationships then we will see stronger murmurings and even possibly action in an Anglican church within the next decade or two or three. It will start off in more liberal churches and then the more traditional churches will do what they normally do, cave in to public opinion or became really mealy-mouthed and embarrassed by their position they dare not teach it publicly. Ask yourself how many churches actively preach against divorce, sex before marriage and remarriage? They don’t because they suspect their congregations will get upset.<br />
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If you’re a church leader in the UK, who is reading this in the future, and are planning to conduct a polygamous marriage will you alert St Nicholas Church Tooting? ?Ofc, if, by then, St Nicholas Church, has not folded and turned into a pub, nightclub, supermarket or whatever else churches are being converted to nowadays – note I’m not going to do the triumphant stuff of saying it will be a mosque because I see a trend where religion in the UK seems to be on the wane and that may also include Islam (which ties in with the Islamic belief that Islam began as something strange and will end up as something strange closer to the end of time) even though pathetically desperate evangelical folks try to scare their cultural Christian comrades into action with the fear that Islam will take over (every church has its bogeyman, the CofE had the pope as its bogeyman for decades; but the bigots nowadays in the Church are increasingly choosing Islam and Muslims to replace the spectre of the “anti-christ” pope) – an appeal to Islamophobia and xenophobia to try and get folks active for the Church of England or whatever evangelical Church they labour for – I told you in my view they continue to embarrass the nation!<br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/response-to-lizzie-schofield-on-british.html" target="_blank">British Muslims integration in the UK - St Nicholas Church member</a><br />
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<a href="https://medium.com/search?q=dcci%20ministries" target="_blank">Responses to DCCI Ministries spiel</a><br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/dcci-ministries-cj-davis-islamophobia.html">DCCI Ministries, CJ Davis, Islamophobia, Low Level Evangelical Polemics and the Bible</a> <br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/dishonest-misisonaries-claiming-prophet.html">Dishonest Misisonaries Claiming Prophet Muhammad Allowed Beating Of Slaves</a> <br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/thoughts-on-paul-williams-debate-on.html">Thoughts on Paul Williams' Debate on Slavery With a Christian Lady</a> <br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/muslim-christian-discussion-on-numbers.html" target="_blank">St Nicholas Church Asked To Explain Numbers 31</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-uses-1-john-222-to-attack.html">Christian Uses 1 John 2:22 To Attack Prophet Muhammad (p)</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html">Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/a-difficulty-on-christian-idea-of.html">A Difficulty On the Christian Idea of Salvation and Forgiveness</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/synoptic-gospels-and-idea-of-pre.html">Synoptic Gospels and the Idea of a Pre-Existant Jesus?</a> <br /><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/christian-inconsistency-around.html">Christian Inconsistency Around Arguments for Prophet Muhammad in the Bible</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/paula-fredriksen-paul-was-not.html">Paula Fredriksen: Paul was NOT a Trinitarian</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-78829999988763535492018-05-14T15:54:00.001-07:002018-05-15T10:46:44.213-07:00Tommy Robinson Followers Witch Hunt A Muslim Online<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x6jj345" allowfullscreen allow="autoplay"></iframe>
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This video is also uploaded<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWgzBrr7DK0&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank"> here</a> and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIoWMaO0HdM" target="_blank">here</a><br />
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This is truly shocking. A Muslim man (Muhammed Hijab) has been the victim of threats and a witch hunt based on false allegation which have led to DFLA supporting xenophobes and Islamophobes to try and get Muhammed Hijab to lose his job. This is crazily unfair. It's obviously a witch hunt conducted by a bunch of upset DFLA supporting Islamophobes due to a couple of their thugs attacking Muhammed Hijab and thus bringing bad PR onto their organisation and their movement. Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-47866755277157370582018-05-14T15:42:00.001-07:002018-05-14T15:42:10.440-07:00Pakistani Christian Supporter of Tommy Robinson - Do Muslims Condemn Grooming GangsSome people may think Muslims have not condemned grooming gangs. Grooming gangs are criminals who break the teachings of Islam.<br />
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<strong>Do Muslims Condemn Grooming Gangs? Tommy Robinson Bigots Answered</strong>
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This video can also be found <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao86ZFOYXvo" target="_blank">here</a> and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGy41-LaUE" target="_blank">here</a><br />
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The Pakistani Christian in this video is either being disingenuous or is not thinking in a reasonable fashion.In order to condemn a group of criminals and/or a criminal action you don’t need to stand outside courts and march around like the xenophobes of the EDL, Britain First, the Football Lads Alliance and the like.You just need to put out a condemnatory statement. That’s all.<br />
This Christian bloke will not accept Muslim condemnations unless he see Muslims outside court cases yelling at groomers going in and out of the court for their trials like Tommy Robinson and Britain First types do. <br />
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You don’t see sports club members, employees of TV stations, parliamentarians or church members being asked to protest outside courtrooms in order to condemn groomers caught in their midst?<br />
Why is he asking for this from Muslims? He seems either totally ignorant or just plainly disingenuous.<br />
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His attitude is reckless as it can lead to further fan the flames of anti Muslim sentiment and encourage collective blame. This is in fact what the far right are trying to do, they misuse these news stories and the victims of these grooming gangs to push their xenophobia and dg-whistle Islamophobia to the public domain in propaganda campaigns against Muslims – essentially they see the victims of sexual violence at the hands of grooming gangs of an ethnic background for a far right political project. This is quite easily discernible as thy concern themselves exclusively on rapes and sexual assaults which can be pinned on cultural outsiders (Muslims in this case) it has to be opposed intellectually and condemned.<br />
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Finally, I want to highlight something you should all be switched on to. The far right are increasingly using people ethnic backgrounds to demonise other minorities (mainly Muslims). This is a tactic used by the far right so as to shield them from accusations of racism. What they are actually doing is tapping into something that has happened historically, as highlighted by MP Dianne Abbot. More established immigrant communities (ethnic minorities) may well criticise the newer and the less established immigrant communities in the West. It’s something to watch out for, it’s still discrimination regardless of the ethnicity of the person who is being used by the far right so don’t feel reluctant to call them out for it by calling a spade a spade .<br />
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<br />Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-2539901853252834442018-05-14T15:19:00.001-07:002018-05-14T15:54:52.099-07:00A Comment By Jan of The Reality Report<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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<br />Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-75699647459404420162018-05-06T07:16:00.000-07:002018-05-06T07:18:51.000-07:00DCCI Ministries, CJ Davis, Islamophobia, Low Level Evangelical Polemics and the BibleThis was quite a revealing dialogue due to some good questions being asked although I was extremely disappointed that there was no continuation of<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/muslim-christian-discussion-on-numbers.html" target="_blank"> the Numbers 31 dialogue – Lizzie Schofied (a church member under CJ Davis’ authority at St Nicholas Church, Tooting) promised she would look into why her Church (the Protestant church on the whole) believes Midianite women and children were killed.</a> CJ Davis, has no immediate plans to address this in public as far as I’m aware. Folks are STILL waiting for an answer<br />
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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5nIWFKz6jkfnbk9dqqKVqA" target="_blank">Pathway to Mercy channel</a><br />
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It starts off with Hashim standing his ground (rightly and commendably so!) fending off a suggestion that a 2-2 minute format should be operated. The explanation for this format here is a worry that Lizzie won't get a word in. I don't get this at all. Hashim's asking questions a good number of his co-religionists will have of Trinitarian Church beliefs and scriptures. You'd think somebody who seriously believes they are an "evangelist" and wants to do the Church's bidding would be up for this. Not Lizzie!<br />
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Remember he's asking questions of a Church representative who is meant to believe she's got the Holy Spirit (which the Trinitarian church believes to be God) in-dwelling her and she is taught by an anonymous New Testament author (whom the Church believes was inspired by the same Spirit) to be ready to give an answer:<br />
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<span style="color: #660000;">Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect</span> [1 Peter 3:15]<br />
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Isn't her job, according to the Church, then, to just sit back, elicit the questions and answer them? Instead, based on her track record, she seems to be led by the spirit of Islamophobia and the spirit of the age (Western culturalism) where she seeks out opportunities to bash the Muslim's religion and in the process bashes the wider Muslim community in the form of stereotyping and propaganda. There’s a sizeable overlap with the Far Right and Lizzie’s “Christian” companions when talking about Islam – something which needs to be reflected and discussed more.<br />
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If a Christianophobe was to do the same he’d be linking the Bible’s relatively low age of consent (age puberty) with the Church child grooming scandals which are in the news far and wide. The Christianophobe counterpart to Lizzie Schofield may also link the biblical orders believed, by the Church (presumably by St Nicholas Church too), to be from the person of Jesus to kill children and women as a reason why so many child abuse scandals are hitting CJ Davis’ Church of England; these people see Jesus as their role model and they believe Jesus did not care about the children in 1 Samuel 15, Numbers 31, Joshua thus they abuse children because their role model did not care about them in their minds. Likewise for why they never protest against wars and bombings of Middle Eastern and other Muslim countries where countless children are killed as collateral damage during (“Christian”) military action, in the accompanying economic warfare prior to “Christian” military action and in the maelstrom of power struggles (including economic shock therapies – re Naomi Klein) in the aftermath of “Christian” bombings and invasions. <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Sermons promoting anti war protests?</span></strong><br />
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I’d personally love to know if CJ Davis has ever, ever, done a sermon criticising our government or an American administration for their decisions to opt for bombs and wars in an effort to move his congregation to be politically active in campaigning against wars and ultimately attempting to save the lives of young foreign children. Alas, St Nicholas Church are hiding his archived sermons now so there’s no way of telling whether he had the moral aptitude and fortitude to speak out or whether he just continually persists with sermons which make the hyper-individualist “Christian” feel good for the day (and donate for the current church building maintenance drive). I get the feeling this is your average Cof E sermon, a reverend who is out of touch just churning out sermons which sing to the whims of the congregation in this climate of hyper-individualism, does Jeremiah 5 come to mind a little?<br />
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<span style="color: #660000;">The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way.</span> [Jeremiah 5]<br />
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But hey, the counterpart to Lizzie, may just say CJ Davis’ role model is the Trinitarian Church version of Jesus - a person who is believed to have ordered to the killing of non virgin women (wives/mothers) [1 Samuel 15] – therefore they expect CJ Davis not to ever speak out and be genuinely active in trying to help those poor women and kids who are the victims of Western (“Christian”) imperial campaigns.<br />
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Perhaps that Christianophobe is out there: Islamophobia breeds Christianophobia and vice versa. People who are representing mosques or churches should recognise this and be guarded and responsible in what they say. Judging from the behaviour and comments coming from Elizabeth Schofield and her colleagues, I’d reckon St Nicholas Church members are not being taught this – that is a failing on CJ Davis’ part. When’s he due to retire...<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow; color: black;">Muslims need to wisen up to the dichotomy within evangelicalism</span></strong><br />
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That was quite a tangent! Where was I? Ah yeah, I was rambling on about the Christian lady not answering questions. Come on, answer the questions the bloke has. If you don't know how the Church wants you to answer why are you even there? Hop over to Oxford Street and splash some cash - charge it to Rob Schofield's credit card if he lets you! Enjoy your day out. And whilst we are at it, why aren’t CJ Davis and Robert Schofield there? They represent a local church, Robert is a preacher and CJ is a member of the clergy nearing retirement. I assume they know more about Trinitarian church beliefs than Elizabeth given that they are allowed to (frigidly) preach at St Nicholas Church and she’s not.<br />
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Come on, let’s start seeing serious church guys having conversation with Muslims. The Christians bring polite and educated (some are very accomplished academically I must say) folks to talk to Atheists yet when it’s a case of talking to Muslims they send out rabble-rouser types. You know the sort when you hear them a number of descriptive words come into mind: unsophisticated, unhinged unwashed, uncaring, uninformed, uncoordinated, uneducated, uncouth and ultimately easily undone! Just think about the number of obnoxious types on the internet where you just go away and think “what a moron” after reading or listening to their “evangelical” efforts. <br />
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Of course, there’s a reason for this. And Muslims need to smarten up to this, it will hurt one’s pride but this is true. The Christians subconsciously see the Atheists and other secularists as their intellectual and cultural superiors as well as being of their own kin and kith; when they see the LGBTQi peeps, uber secular humanists or New Age Atheists they see their family, their role models, their celebrities, their teachers (possibly their church leaders given some of them are secret Atheists too!), their cultural icons and their own culture. That’s an internal and in-house thing for them. When they see some Muslim at Speakers Corner (or wherever) preaching Islam, they see Johnny foreigner. A foreign culture. Subconscious xenophobia kicks in and they leave the uncooked types in the Church to dialogue with Muslims, why should a smart and classy gentleman be resourced on talking to a bunch of Muslims when the metaphorical red-carpet can be rolled out for what the Reformation ultimately helped to spawn as the evolved cultural specimen of the age, the secular humanist?<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Xenophobia?</span></strong><br />
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I suspect there is a latent sense of xenophobia in the reason why there is such a gulf in class between the two sets of “evangelists”. If you can’t see this just look at the Christian evangelists and apologists advocating Theism and compare them to those who are concentrated on trying to bring Muslims into the Trinitarian Church. And I don’t mean take Speakers’ Corner Christians as an example as I think it’s pretty well observed that Christians turn up there half-way normal and become buffoonish in many cases for a few hours before going home to act half-way normal again for the rest of the week – that’s sadly rinsed and repeated for the rest of the year. Take Speakers Corner out of the equation, you’ll still notice what I’m getting at. <br />
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We haven’t even got into any apologetics yet. This is going to be a toil. Moving on whilst having some more prune juice...<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow; color: black;">"The Bible is infallible because of the Quran" - Elizabeth Schofield</span></strong><br />
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I want to post more on this type of cognitive laziness and let's be frank, evangelical intellectual obscurantism. She got cut off, rightly so, but it seemed like she was scraping the barrel of low level evangelical slogans with this. Sad.<br />
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St Nicholas Church’s Lizzie Schofield has form for spiel like this, did she not try this type of stunt before with 1 Samuel 15:3? <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AM-X7FkYkg" target="_blank">She was telling the SAME speaker (Hashim) not to criticise the order to kill women and children (believed by her Trinitarian Church to be from the person of Jesus!) given tin 1 Samuel 15 because it's confirmed in the Quran. It turned out it was not confirmed in the Quran thus whoever gave her that line was making her seem dishonest</a>. Or maybe she just made it up, if so, CJ Davis what are you teaching your congregation in Tooting? <br />
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The New Testament is not the Injeel - this is a crucial distinction which is ignored/missed by evangelicals to promote what is ultimately their intellectually dishonest sloganeering. <br />
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Muslims need to be firm, clear and polite in making these points. Churches need to be honest in listening to Muslims and finding out what they believe about the NT rather than thinking some missionary pamphlet is trusty.<br />
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The NT was never seen nor sanctioned by Jesus. Islam confirms a Message which was given to [emphasising <em>to</em>] Jesus. The Church "gospels" are written by anonymous people without any authority about Jesus which a church (a bunch of anonymous and unauthorised people again) declared to be "inspired". <br />
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Let's see folks stop playing dumb here as clearly Islam contradicts aspects of the Church's teachings. What are you saying, the Quran wholly confirms the Church's books but contradicts the Church's teachings? A simple example here would be that of the deifying of a Prophet, Jesus. The Church believes its books and its creeds teach this. Islam rejects this idea. Likewise with the idea of Jesus being murdered for the sins of mankind, the Church believes this is something their New Testament teaches yet Muslims don’t believe this idea. Do you still want to say Islam confirms the New Testament?<br />
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Think about what you’re saying, just because some ropey missionary said it before you for decades does not mean it’s true. Christian missionaries say all sorts of stuff, not all of it’s true. <br />
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Muslims believe Scripture was given to Abraham - the Quran teaches this. If the Church or any other organisation turns up with texts written in the name of, about or purported to be from Abraham, does that mean Islam confirms these texts? Nope.<br />
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We’ve got to encourage better thought!<br />
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As far as I can see, Hashim and those who follow his SC dialogues online are too smart to fall for that. And Lizzie should be switched on enough to know how shallow and offensive to the intellect these scrape-the-bottom-of-the-barrel evangelical slogans look. It goes back to what I was saying about the way the non theists are treated; the Church brings out sophisticated people who proffer sophisticated arguments but it’s anything goes when it comes to Muslims (including hypocrisy, misinformation, out-right lies, decontextualised narratives, xenophobia, racist arguments, logical fallacies, strawmen, made up stories or miracles and healings which always take place when the camera is never around, parlour tricks like leg lengthening passed off as miracles, quote mining etc,.). In fact the Church, along with slogans, rolls out the blankets and promises of help with asylum applications to entice Muslim refugees to sign on the dotted line. A number, desperate and broken through poverty and war, do decide to temporarily pretend to become Christians for the Church goodies and support. <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">He's not interested in the Church</span></strong><br />
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I’m not watching a video of a Christian manipulating a refugee (all that is done behind closed doors) but I’m watching a video of an evangelist representing the Church talking to a Muslim who is clearly not going to be swayed by promises of blankets, cash, asylum or low level evangelical slogans. How many guys like Hashim has the Church got to sign on the dotted line? You can tell this man will never become a Christian and you can tell Lizzie knows this, she’s not even trying to convince him to follow her to St Nicholas Church and get baptised...she’s not even trying to communicate the Church “gospel” with him. He knows too much about the Bible, the Trinity belief and the Church doctrines. Having said that, if there’s never been an attempt by a Christian, to sit him down and try and answer his questions and communicate the Church message to him, you would have to ask why are DCCI Ministries and these other Church characters you see in SC videos ,who have become somewhat cartoonish, aren’t trying to spend time and “save his soul” according to their Church’s ideas. Do they not care about his soul? You’d think these characters would all be rushing off to their respective local churches and calling on their elders to rush down there and try and save the soul of Hashim.<br />
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Perhaps they did but their church leaders were preoccupied on the church roof. Building maintenance, the primary concern of all local churches!<br />
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For those who want to see a good in-depth break-down of this argument see<br />
<a href="http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/response_to_james_white_on_surah_5__ayah_47">http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/response_to_james_white_on_surah_5__ayah_47</a><br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Lizzie Schofield: "It's a translational thing" - the reason why the Catholics have more books in their Bible</span></strong><br />
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Nope, Elizabeth. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJdqYzL1LJU" target="_blank">Not according to the Catholics.</a><br />
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CJ Davis, what are you teaching your church mate?<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Lizzie Schofield: "It's not a big deal" that other churches have different books in their Bible </span></strong><br />
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Nope Elizabeth. <br />
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Not according to St Nicholas Church in Tooting and all those members of the CofE following the Thirty Nine Articles over the centuries as the list of books was deemed important enough to list in the Articles. It's clearly a big deal - especially if you believe Archbishop Cranmer and CofE members over the centuries were indwelt by the Holy Spirit.<br />
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What are you saying here Lizzie, it was important for the Holy Spirit to make prominent in the minds of "Christians" centuries ago but nowadays the Holy Spirit does not consider it as important?<br />
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And don't you think the spirit inside you wants you to believe it's important which words are attributed to God and which words aren't? When you’ve imbibed the spirit of the age and decided to peddle in islamophobia rather than your Church tradition and Bible you probably don’t think about these points<br />
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CJ Davis, care to comment? <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Elizabeth Schofield: The differences between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles don't matter because they teach the same thing</span></strong><br />
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Well, if they teach the same thing then why does Robert Schofield, who left the Catholic Church to join the church of Martin Luther and the Puritans, subscribe to the Protestant Bible? And why would he leave Catholicism for Protestantism if it's all the same thing? <br />
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Oh, you're saying the overall message in the two faiths are the same? Well, in that case, isn't there an argument for the overall message between Unitarians and the Trinitarian Church being the same? Or the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses have a similar overall message to St Nicholas Church? CJ Davis, are you going to allow Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Socinians in your church to preach? Let me know if you are planning to as you’re on the road to letting Muslims lead prayers there.<br />
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[As for this by-line that the overall message is the same, of course it's going to be as Luther and company did not radically split from the older church of Rome and make their own religion up. <br />
If say you, Lizzie Schofield, decide to reject the Old Testament and reject the Church theology of the Trinity because you don’t like believing in a Trinitarian Church Version Jesus who is the source of Exodus 21:20-21 or 1 Samuel 15 and <a href="https://youtu.be/smQBIiK6Yyw" target="_blank">2 Samuel 12</a><br />
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Do you think your church would be OK with you to remain as a member and would the clergy there say you believe the same thing as them?<br />
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CJ Davis, would you kick her out of your church if she did this (forget about the amount of cash she may or may not pump into the church coffers)? And don’t give me that nonsense of we don’t kick people out, your Church articles teach ex-communication.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">The Bible is reliable enough for the basic message of the Church to be ascertained?</span></strong><br />
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Erm, this oh it's reliable enough (meaning that it's not inerrant) actually contradicts the Bible as it's taught to be flawless perfect (discussed later)<br />
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CJ, come on mate, I think you really need to stop these people going to parks and mosques; you need to start entering serious discussions on these matters. When I say serious discussions, I don’t mean masking what you're teaching by hiding your sermons, I mean by inviting to the church people who can conduct clear-minded and informed dialogue to help edify your congregations with respect to what the Bible actually is, its history and the history of doctrines such as the 4th century doctrine of the Trinity. Can we move away from slogans, empty rhetoric and move towards having Muslim folks invited to St Nicholas Church to lovingly discuss these talking points with the church members in a spirit of friendship rather than this adversarial hype Lizzie and the other “robust” “Christians” are on? It can be done without the shouting and the immaturity <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejB6vyI4MP8" target="_blank">which Dr James R White (church elder at Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church) has rebuked your church member on</a>. There are Muslims willing to lovingly dialogue with you at St Nicholas Church on any given Sunday. You used to do the hot potato sermons, why not make this proposed interfaith discussion (not scream-fest) a regular thing for a Sunday at your church – perhaps bi-monthly? You’ll have to find a sophisticated and learned Muslim (learned in Islam and Christianity) as your dialogue partner, but that should not be a problem as there are plenty out there. Here’s an idea, to get your program running why don’t you invite the chap Liz was talking to, Hashim, he’s clearly got a load of questions which are going unanswered?<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">~ 26 The Bible is inspired by God – Lizzie Schofield</span></strong><br />
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Where's Lizzie getting this idea from? The Church! The same Church that invented from whole-cloth the Trinity Doctrine. The same Church which was unsure about certain books. The same Church which basically chose, without any authority whatsoever what is to be considered inspired scripture and ended up with four, yes four (4), gospels. It even debated the book of Revelation, as mentioned elsewhere in the video by the Muslim who does not look remotely interested signing up for the Church, Hashim<br />
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Why is Lizzie even taking this fallible organisation as an authority? <br />
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If a bunch of church-men got together now and declared the Epistle of Barnabas is canon would she accept it? If not then why not as the church-men of today have as much authority as those involved in the long, protracted canonisation process. <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Heretics, barbarians and rancour in the heart</span></strong><br />
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I'd bet many, if not all of them, would have considered Lizzie to be a heretic or a pagan (I waggishly ask, would they have called her a barbarian? Oooh the irony considering evangelical “Christian” propaganda which paints Muslims as barbarians!) <br />
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Seriously, Lizzie Schofield, forget about all the banter and the personal animosity (plus pride). You must KNOW deep down that this questioning is subsumed on good points. Will you consider the questions faithfully or will you cling on to your Church’s tradition because it's a Muslim or a critic saying it and you've felt your pride dented by such people responding to you?<br />
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And on that note, let's just remember these authors did not believe the words they were writing were "inspired". An obvious example would be the fact that none of them claim such and the gospel authors Luke and Matthew clearly did not believe Mark was "inspired" otherwise they would not have wrote their own based on his work...they would have simply copied his accurately and distributed it if they truly believed his text was "inspired". Likewise for the recipients of Paul's letters, how could they believe his letters were "inspired" if they did not even bother to preserve them - his letter to Laodicea is lost (and who knows which other letters and his current letters are thought to be edited versions).<br />
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Again, Lizzie, these are good points worthy of a good deal of mulling over - something which can only be considered by putting pride and rancour for the group, person making said points aside.<br />
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I used to watch a fair bit of Speakers Corner stuff and as far as a I would speculate, the Christians (including you) are less likely to take anything on board from their Muslim interlocutors simply because of the cameras, rancour in the heart (basically dislike for that individual Muslim) and pride.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">27 Lizzie is Uneasy about inerrancy</span></strong><br />
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“Credibility and inerrancy are two different things”<br />
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Not for a Book which you claim is inspired by God. Yep for a newspaper or news station. The BBC is reliable (credible) on the whole but it's not inerrant. <br />
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The Bible can't be mostly reliable or credible if you believe it's inspired by God - it's got to be flawless. In fact, that is what the Hebrew Bible teaches about itself according to Christians at Got Questions: <br />
<br />
<em><span style="color: #660000;">The doctrine of biblical inerrancy is an extremely important one because the truth does matter. This issue reflects on the character of God and is foundational to our understanding of everything the Bible teaches. Here are some reasons why we should absolutely believe in biblical inerrancy:</span></em><br />
<em><span style="color: #660000;"></span></em><br />
<em><span style="color: #660000;">1. The Bible itself claims to be perfect. “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6). “The law of the Lord is perfect” (Psalm 19:7). “Every word of God is pure” (Proverbs 30:5 KJV). These claims of purity and perfection are absolute statements. Note that it doesn’t say God’s Word is “mostly” pure or scripture is “nearly” perfect. The Bible argues for complete perfection, leaving no room for “partial perfection” theories.</span></em><br />
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The odd thing here is that Lizzie’s St Nicholas Church believes inerrancy is important, it's one of the doctrines they officially hold to. Why the reticence to sign on the dotted line, Lizzie? <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq2EUjAH90I" target="_blank">She seemingly believes there are minor contradictions in the Bible.</a> <br />
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CJ Davis, do you care about any of this or are you just hanging on until retirement day (CofE pension) going through the motions as a preacher preaching what you think the congregation want you to say to make them feel good about themselves (meeting the needs of hyper-individualism in the church)?<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">"we've got thousands of manuscripts"..."so much mansucript evidence" – Lizzie Schofield</span></strong><br />
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I'm disappointed because I know this lady is simply repeating lazy apologetics dished down by people who should know better. <br />
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These manuscripts are largely from the Middle Ages so the number of manuscripts is irrelevant. It's like me pitching up and claiming we know Shakespeare is reliable because we've got a ton of copies printed from the 1960s in bookstores and libraries across the UK. The smart person will just dismiss this because these copies, centuries later, have no categorical say on whether what we have written now is what Shakespeare originally wrote.<br />
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The fact is, there's no way to tell if the Church have copied correctly what the original authors of the NT wrote - there were dishonest scribes and there were sloppy scribes so we don’t know whether they added bits or omitted bits <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">28 Mark took dictation from Peter – Lizzie Schofield</span></strong><br />
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This is just not true. It's not true. <br />
Mark was probably written after Peter passed away. And that may be one of the reasons why they attributed it to Mark. <br />
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Does accuracy and truth not matter?<br />
<br />
Look, you've got somebody who the Church wants us to believe is filled with the Holy Spirit and is being sanctified by the Holy Spirit yet this person is a constant source of misinformation – she does not come back and publicly correct herself as far as I’m aware either.<br />
<br />
Sadly this is a constant theme amongst Christians who just imbibe what they are told and want to believe it because they want to hold on to their Church beliefs<br />
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CJ Davis or whoever is handing this material down really needs to be ashamed. YOU are making this poor lady look dishonest/recklessly ignorant. Does truth/accuracy not matter to you? You send her a bunch of untrue talking points on a regular basis melted into her low level and shallow polemics and apologetics. People aren't half-wits and they will see what’s being said is plainly untrue...well most people!<br />
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Why don’t you (whoever is misinforming her) turn up and read the crib sheets yourself, why have poor Lizzie do your bidding as a volunteer? I truly feel sorry for her as I know this is a regular theme - a young lady involved in the church who was in David Wood's group left faith (perhaps partly because of my responses which were essentially a watered down version of my responses to Lizzie) and contacted me. I guarantee you, young people (maybe Lizzie too) will leave the Church or have serious doubts if they follow the sound responses/rebukes in videos (either live encounters with smart and switched on folk or the edited variety) and blogs. <br />
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<br />
Lizzie may carry on subscribing to the Church because of the support services the local church offers and maybe because of all the cash she's pumped into it via donations over the years but younger people making their way into the world aren't as interested in coffee groups, crèches, clubs, social events, connect groups etc.. This is especially true for younger blokes given the atmosphere of emasculation in churches nowadays, young blokes who already have a support group of friends and social life won’t feel they need that crux of the local church. Of course you’ll always get people moving to new cities and jumping on Alpha Courses but that again is more female oriented and is more about emotions and feelings (smells and bells) rather than serious investigation of Church traditions. There's less lure and appeal for the average bloke, especially working class blokes. I guarantee you if there are young people following DCCI Ministries “work” at Speakers Corner and online they are doubting and/or leaving the faith as they can see what everybody else can see. There are more holes in the explanations and arguments advocated by Lizzie and her church colleagues than the Titanic.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;"></span></strong><br />
<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">"The fact we've got 4 different gospels not one"</span></strong><br />
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This is yarn is all about turning negatives into positives. Lazy evangelists do this a lot.<br />
The fact the Church chose 4 gospels probably means they simply turned into a super church by grafting in various groups of a similar theology, exorcising their "gospel" may have caused a kerfuffle so the easier thing to do was to just include them all as there was a great deal of overlap between them (I’m open to other theories but this theory makes sense to me). Even though two of them were copying from Mark, hardly different converging lines of evidence.<br />
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If I and another blogger reported on some fraud in the church (let's say some dude caught with his hand in the church charity box) and we copy from a church news source and make edits, is that three different converging lines of evidence or is it one report which was re-used?<br />
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Ditto re the Gospels!<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/dishonest-misisonaries-claiming-prophet.html" target="_blank">More dishonesty about Islam from DCCI Ministries' teachers</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/thoughts-on-paul-williams-debate-on.html" target="_blank">Lizzie of St Nicholas Church and DCCI on Salvery</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html" target="_blank">Advice to Muslims in responding to St Nicholas Church members and Christian Islamophobes</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/muslim-christian-discussion-on-numbers.html" target="_blank">St Nicholas Church Member and the "sex slaves" claim debate analysed</a><br />
<br />Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-34509981730802144552018-01-17T06:41:00.000-08:002018-01-18T04:39:10.781-08:00Thoughts on Paul Williams' Debate on Slavery With a Christian LadyPaul Williams entered into a dialogue about slavery and had a mini-debate with a Westernised Christian lady who seemed reluctant to want to discuss the topic with Paul Williams. The discussion can be viewed on the SC Dawah YouTube page in a video entitled<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZoVertk1Vk&t=1s" target="_blank"> Biblical Problems: Paul vs Lizzie</a><br />
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Paul gave the Westernised Christian lady an equally difficult time to that which<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/muslim-christian-discussion-on-numbers.html" target="_blank"> Hashim recently gave her on Numbers 31</a>. I do feel it's noticeable that the Christian lady is being more mindful of allowing the other person to speak and thinking about how she's being perceived, it's a good thing. There has been a marked improvement. Well done!<br />
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Before discussing a couple of interesting Bible verses Paul Williams raised, I want to pull the lady up on what appears to be a low-level polemic which I corrected a while back. The <a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/dishonest-misisonaries-claiming-prophet.html" target="_blank">Hadith of Prophet Muhammad rebuking somebody for hitting a slave whilst smiling is sadly being misused by Christian polemicists as an endorsement of beating slaves</a>. This is intellectually dishonest. <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/dishonest-misisonaries-claiming-prophet.html" target="_blank">I've addressed this subject previously in this video</a>. Folks, honest reading of texts is more praise and respect worthy than manipulated readings geared towards low-level polemics and mud-slinging contests. Sincere Christians should think about this. <br />
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<iframe allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="275" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PZoVertk1Vk" width="460"></iframe>
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Do you believe cruel slave masters must be obeyed?</span></strong><br />
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Paul Williams raised the following eye-opening reference from the New Testament. Quite often we expect this type of passage to be limited only to the Old Testament, it' a difficult passage. <br />
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<em>18<strong> Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh</strong>. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up <strong>under the pain of unjust suffering</strong> because they are conscious of God. <strong>20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it?</strong> But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God</em> [1 Peter 2, NIV]<br />
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The lady did try and suggest this was referring to servants rather than slaves and also includes professionals in employment like doctors and lawyers. I don't think this cuts much mustard, look at verse 20, it's talking about receiving beatings. One would expect beatings to be meted out to slaves, not private contractors who you hire. Coupled with Exodus 21:20-21 where TCVO Jesus allows the severe beating of female (and male) slaves as long as they got up after a day or two this is a difficult subject, especially for Westernised "Christians" - the type who get their morals from Western liberal societal norms rather than the Bible. <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">The New Testament does not say slaves should be freed</span></strong><br />
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Now, this was an interesting claim which Paul made. Food for thought.<br />
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I'd like to see this topic explored further. I'm not sure if there is a Christian at that park, with the necessary discipline to stay on the topic, who is willing and able to discuss this topic with somebody like Paul Williams. Perhaps there is and we will se a video of such a discussion emerge on the net in the next few months. <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">"Muhammad owned slaves"</span></strong><br />
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A few points to consider here:<br />
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1. I don't get this point. I don't understand why this is a big deal as Prophet Muhammad's slaves weren't all owned at the same time, they were freed and he encouraged the freeing of slaves. Slavery was embedded in society at the time so for the Prophet of the community to be an example in freeing slaves would have had a positive pedagogical effect on others:<br />
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<em>Al-Imaam An-Nawawi may Allaah have mercy upon him said that it should be known that these slaves were not in the possession of the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) at the same time. However, each one served him sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) at a particular time. Moreover, historical sources all agree that the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) set all of his men and women slaves free, setting an example for his Companions , may Allah be pleased with them.</em>
<a href="http://www.islamweb.net/prophet/index.php?page=showarticle&id=174571" target="_blank">[Source]</a><br />
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2. Does this lady not actually believe Jesus got 32 virgin girls given to him as a tribute? In Numbers 31, thirty two virgin girls were given to the LORD (for this lady, the Lord is TCVO Jesus), were these not slaves or does the lady believe the Midianite girls chose to be given to TCVO Jesus <br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man. 36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was: 337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the Lord was 675; 38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72; 39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61; 40 16,000 people, </span></em><strong><em><span style="color: #660000;">of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32.</span></em> </strong><br />
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3. I guess this is part of the mindless emotional fluff we see so often where evangelical "Christian" people selectively compare certain instances in the life of Prophet Muhammad who was running a state with the Jesus of the New Testament who was a citizen and never had any state leadership responsibilities.<br />
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On top of this, Trinitarian Christians believe Jesus is God, why are they trying to compare a man they believe to be god with a Prophet? Bizarre. It's not only us who have picked up on this, Christian authors like Thom Stark write about it, equally perplexed:<br />
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<em>...since Christians believe that Jesus is God, and Muslims believe that Muhammad was a human prophet, it is patently unfair to try to measure Muhammad against Jesus. Much more appropriate would be to measure Muhammad against Moses, and if Copan were to do that, guess who would be the shining beacon of light? Well, it wouldn’t be the elder of the two states-men. For one thing, Muhammad condemned the slaughter of noncombatants, women and children. Second, he embraced religious tolerance and believed that Christians, despite some theological flaws, were God’s people too, only with imperfect revelation. Moses, on the other hand, ordered and engaged in the slaughter of noncombatants, women and children, on a routine basis, and advocated for anything but religious tolerance.</em>
[Thom Stark]<br />
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I can't imagine this lady making such arguments against Moses? <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Inconsistency</span></strong><br />
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In fact, the lady believes Jesus allows slavery in both the Bible and as Paul Williams mentioned, nowhere in the Bible does it teach slaves should be freed. And let us not forget that the lady believes TCVO Jesus allowed the severe beating of female slaves in Exodus 21.<br />
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I guess it's just another example of what Paul Williams described as throwing the Bible under the bus and opting for secular Western liberalism. I always find it difficult to understand exactly where this lady is coming from, at times she sounds like a British culturalist, at times like a Westernised watered-down "Christian", at times like a secular liberal, at times like a Daily Mail reader and at times like a radical feminist. The times she does sound like a Bible-believing Christian she shocks people with comments about her belief that Jesus will return with a SWORD for the "enemies of Christ" (all non Christians, including women I suppose)<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">The lady kept using a misleading term, "sex slaves"</span></strong><br />
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“Sex slaves”? What is this loaded and utterly misleading term that so many people engaging in low-level polemics are using about Islam. Islam does not have a concept of “sex slaves”. “Sex slaves” are not allowed in Islam. <a href="https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/term-sex-slaves-used-by-anti-islam-polemicists-8f7a74daf6e6" target="_blank">I’ve got an important discussion on this subject here where Christians opt to use the word “concubine” when talking about their tradition but for Islam they, for some reason (anti-Islam propaganda) spin it to “sex slave” when talking about the Islamic tradition.</a> Let’s be honest and fair with our terminology. It’s actually concubine for both religions. “Sex slave” is something completely different and it skews the audience’s understanding if they are not switched on.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Submission to ruling authorities</span></strong><br />
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I think the Christian lady misunderstood Paul's reason for citing Romans 13:1<br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><em>Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.</em>
</span><br />
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There are a few difficulties for the Christian which stem from thinking about this Bible verse. <br />
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A big issue here I notice arising from Paul of Tarsus' myopic vision and his inability to envision a church (not his church as he was not a Trinitarian and nor did he have the same Bible as the Christians of today) would still be in existence 2000 years after him and that church would have had governance of Rome as well as other lands (many of which he would not have known existed).<br />
Due to his myopia, he never instructed Christians in governance and never instructed Christians in how to govern a land based on biblical principles and laws. Christians believe God gave laws on how to regulate a land (a theocracy) in the Old Testament yet for some reason there is nothing similar in the NT but instead we see an encouragement to subservience of (pagan?) rulers, no matter how cruel and unjust they are. State governance based on social justice does not seem to have been on Paul of Tarsus' mind. This is all because Paul of Tarsus did not envision his religion and community to last long. Little did he know that a church would have saved some of his letters (not all of his letters), designated them "inspired by God" and put them in a canon to add to the Hebrew Bible alongside some other written documents including four "gospels".<br />
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I really don't think Paul of Tarsus would recognise the Christian lady in the park to be a follower of his. <br />
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And I'm absolutely certain the historical Jesus would not consider her to be a follower of his.<br />
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<em>Geza Vermes speaks of Jesus as a ‘lover and worshipper of his Father in heaven’ , whose transformation into an object of worship ‘would have filled this Galilean Hasid with stupefaction, anger and deepest grief’ (Vermes 1983:13)</em> [Cambridge Companion to Jesus Edited by Markus Bockmuehl – Cambridge University Press – 2001]
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<br />
<div>
<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/paula-fredriksen-paul-was-not.html">Paula Fredriksen: Paul was NOT a Trinitarian</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/analysing-jay-smiths-students-debate-at.html">Analysing Jay Smith's Student's Debate At Speakers Corner On Atonement</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-polemicists-on-love-quran-332.html">Christian Polemicists on Love, Quran 3:32, John 3:16 and Romans 5:8</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/jay-smith-did-john-write-down-what.html">Jay Smith, Did John Write Down What Jesus Said?</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/jay-smith-is-confident-hes-going-to.html">Jay Smith Is Confident He's Going to Paradise!</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/missionaries-misusing-hadith-sins-on.html">Missionaries Misusing the Hadith: Sins On Jews and Christians</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-uses-1-john-222-to-attack.html">Christian Uses 1 John 2:22 To Attack Prophet Muhammad (p)</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html">Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/a-difficulty-on-christian-idea-of.html">A Difficulty On the Christian Idea of Salvation and Forgiveness</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/synoptic-gospels-and-idea-of-pre.html">Synoptic Gospels and the Idea of a Pre-Existant Jesus?</a> <br />
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<div>
<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/christian-inconsistency-around.html">Christian Inconsistency Around Arguments for Prophet Muhammad in the Bible</a> </div>
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</div>
<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html" target="_blank">Christians having dreams and converting to Islam</a></span></strong></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"></span></span></span></span> </div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-84003701654266370802018-01-16T17:00:00.001-08:002018-01-16T17:00:47.787-08:00Dishonest Misisonaries Claiming Prophet Muhammad Allowed Beating Of SlavesThis is just another outright dishonest claim. They spin a hadith where the Prophet gently rebuked a companion for beating his slave as an allowance of beating slaves. Do you find that odd? Welcome to the world of dishonest anti-Islam Christian polemics.<br />
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It's discussed in this video from the 2.00 min timeframe onwards.<br />
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<iframe allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="275" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/w5yfCCFz2Wg?start=120" width="460"></iframe>
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This video is also uploaded <a href="https://youtu.be/zB7SLso-SD8" target="_blank">here</a> and <a href="https://vimeo.com/251408210" target="_blank">here</a><br />
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<a href="http://cmje.usc.edu/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/010-sat.php" target="_blank">Book 10, Number 1814</a>:
Narrated Asma' bint AbuBakr:
We came out for performing hajj along with the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When we reached al-Araj, the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) alighted and we also alighted. Aisha sat beside the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and I sat beside my father (AbuBakr). The equipment and personal effects of AbuBakr and of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) were placed with AbuBakr's slave on a camel. AbuBakr was sitting and waiting for his arrival. He arrived but he had no camel with him. He asked:
Where is your camel? He replied: I lost it last night. AbuBakr said: There was only one camel, even that you have lost. He then began to beat him while the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?
Ibn AbuRizmah said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) spoke nothing except the words: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (wearing ihram), what is he doing? He was smiling (when he uttered these words).<br />
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Bible:
Exodus 21:20-21New International Version (NIV)
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br /><br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html" target="_blank">Christians having dreams and converting to Islam</a></span></strong></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-57038428010729890012018-01-16T04:56:00.003-08:002018-01-16T04:59:21.542-08:00Muslim-Christian Discussion on Numbers 31 - Analysis and Commentary<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">A discussion between a popular Muslim speaker at Speakers Corner and a Christian lady on Numbers 31 - Moses’ treatment of the Midianites.</span></strong><br />
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For me this was an interesting discussion, perhaps the pick of the recent Speakers Corner discussions. You can find this discussion on<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGPdMSQDj9M" target="_blank"> the SC Dawah channel (a well respected and, perhaps, the most popular Speakers Corner YouTube channel).</a><br />
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There’s a short debate and then some powerful preaching (a recommended listen!) from Hashim jam-packed with good points.<br />
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<iframe allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="275" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uGPdMSQDj9M" width="460"></iframe>
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Hitting Asiha? “Sex-slaves”.</span></strong><br />
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Look, low-level polemics and spin need to stop if you want to communicate with integrity<br />
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Before getting on to the debate, I want to pick on two throw-away comments which really got my goat.<br />
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1. The lady effectively claimed Prophet Muhammad hit Asiha by referencing a Hadith we have covered more than once (<a href="https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/jay-smith-missionaries-and-false-wife-beating-claims-f7dea698756f" target="_blank">her colleagues have been publicly corrected on this issue previously</a>!). Sadly, people get corrected and have things explained to them but their pride or their agenda gets in the way and they just don’t take ownership of their mistakes and raise their hands to give up bad and misleading arguments publicly. If folks did this more often we would have a better environment to have meaningful and honest discussion (as I write, a few days a go, an Arabic-speaking secularist whom I corrected on social media concerning the Hadith in question actually did the right thing, he acknowledged it was a bad argument which he should not have raised, respect to him for that!). There’s a narration from Aisha where she says the Prophet<strong> never</strong> struck any of his wives, so to say he hit Aisha would not stack up with this narration, right? The hand imposition of the Prophet is not considered to be wife-beating as the intention was not to hit or beat Aisha, the Prophet used this to ward off evil thoughts and doubts in people. Let’s start seeing people be fair when they talk about this (and other) Hadith. What are folks afraid of, that they will have to be more fair-minded in discussion? Surely this is a good thing. I genuinely believe, if Christians actually circulated good Muslims responses (a plethora can be found online on various blogs and websites) to the low-level polemics doing the rounds in Christian circles, most reasonable Christians would reject the low-level polemics and opt for more sophisticated and reasonable dialogue with Muslims. Right now, it’s a free-for-all mud-slinging contest. <a href="https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/12/23/refuting-the-allegation-that-muhammed-hit-his-wife-aisha-and-more/" target="_blank">The Hadith of causing Aisha pain is explained here. </a><br />
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2. “Sex slaves”? What is this loaded and utterly misleading term that so many people engaging in low-level polemics are using about Islam. Islam does not have a concept of “sex slaves”. “Sex slaves” are not allowed in Islam. <a href="https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/term-sex-slaves-used-by-anti-islam-polemicists-8f7a74daf6e6" target="_blank">I’ve got an important discussion on this subject here where Christians opt to use the word “concubine” when talking about their tradition but for Islam they, for some reason (anti-Islam propaganda) spin it to “sex slave” when talking about the Islamic tradition.</a> Let’s be honest and fair with our terminology. It’s actually concubine for both religions. “Sex slave” is something completely different and it skews the audience’s understanding if they are not switched on.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;"> Hashim: Why did Moses order the killing of women [and children] in Numbers 31?</span></strong><br />
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The Christian lady’s explanation was that the women "encouraged" the Israelites into idolatry. I would ask her, if *all* the women were encouraging the Israelites into idolatry or if it was only a few...<br />
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Based on the explanation she gave, the lady has no issue with contravening religious freedom and freedom to worship whatever/who one wants. If she’s got no issue here and considers this to be a rightful reason to kill the mature women (mothers) then she’s saying she does not believe in freedom of religion on all occasions at the very least. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQDvJeubEoE&t=2s" target="_blank">The same applies if she believes Jesus will return with a sword for anybody who does not</a> believe in him upon his return. And, likewise with<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/does-jesus-use-violence-and-force.html" target="_blank"> the order to stone to death people who preach the worship of different gods in the Bible, see Deuteronomy 13.</a><br />
The UN Declaration of Human Rights kind of gets put to the side when thinking about all the above beliefs.<br />
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I’m not saying (and nor do I believe), this is an argument against Trinitarian Jesus, the Bible, Jews, Christians and Moses. It’s just an observation to keep in mind as many Westernised Christians give the impression they are not aware of these points and many of them fall into serious inconsistency (hypocrisy which is a sin) when talking about Islam.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Distancing TCVO Jesus from Numbers 31?</span></strong><br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;"><br /></span></strong><br />
Note: TCVO Jesus = Trinitarian Church Version Of Jesus<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.</span></em><br />
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The Christian lady was doing something extremely telling in calling it the Mosaic law, name-dropping Moses and distancing “Christ” from this by going out of her way to state the number of centuries it allegedly took place before “Christ”.<br />
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She’s awfully uncomfortable, visibly so, and wants to distance Jesus from this consciously (she’s mindful it’s a public discussion) and subconsciously (cognitive dissonance: the Westernised idea that TCVO Jesus is all about love and peace does not mesh with Numbers 31, and other parts of the Bible). The problems in trying to distance Jesus from Numbers 31 and Moses for her are a few:<br />
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1. The order given to Moses to take vengeance on the Midianites, as Hashim rightly points out, is in the first verse of the chapter, it’s from Yahweh. This does not appear to be Moses acting on his own thoughts sinfully, is he not following a divine command according to the Bible here?<br />
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2. For her this order is from Jesus as she’s a Trinitarian so she believes Jesus is the 2nd person of the fourth century Trinity idea. In effect, she believes Jesus is God and thus the order given to Moses to take vengeance on the Midianites is from Jesus. <br />
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3. For her, Jesus would consider Moses to be a holy and righteous man; Acts 7:22 talks of Moses as mighty in his words and deeds and Numbers 12:3 describes Moses as the meekest man on earth.<br />
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4. Moses would have been a moral exemplar for the community he was sent to. This moral exemplar was sent by TCVO Jesus according to the lady. Jews believes Moses to be their teacher and his prophecy to have primacy (see Moses Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith). One thing I'm curious about is whether Christians like this lady would preach to Jews by methods of character assassination of Moses and unjust comparisons with Jesus in order to get Jews to worship Jesus (a man!). This is the type of tactic they use with Muslims, why would they not use these tactics for Jews too? <br />
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5. There was <a href="https://www.whyislam.org/common-ground/muhammad-a-prophet-like-unto-moses/" target="_blank">a prophecy of a prophet to come who would be like Moses</a>, Muslims argue this prophet is Prophet Muhammad, the description of Moses in Numbers 31 is not something that Muslims are obligated to accept but bible-believing Christians are obligated to believe Moses gave such orders to kill women and children. The Christian lady may argue the prophecy of one to come who is like Moses is Jesus. If that’s what she believes, she’s got the cognitive dissonance of Jesus being like somebody who ordered the killing of women and children. [Having said that, Trinitarians do believe Jesus ordered the killing of children and women in 1 Samuel 15:3 and even made women suspected of infidelity to take a test which would mean their unborn children of such unholy relationships would be killed]<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">What about the children, why were they killed?</span></strong><br />
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The Christian lady tried to skirt away from having to try and explain why the children were killed. Hashim pulled her up on this and insisted she directs her concentration towards this matter – she seemed to want to talk about something else. Anything else but this?<br />
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To her credit she did say she does not know why the male children were killed and that she will look into it. This does lead us to the question,<strong><em> why does she not know?</em></strong> I mean, she’s obviously familiar with the reference of Numbers 31, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ihNp_3zms" target="_blank">her colleagues have been told about it before.</a> Why has she never thought about this? Given the numerous weak and fabricated Hadith folks on the low-level polemics bandwagon cite to attack Prophet Muhammad and Islam, this is odd. How can they have invested so much time and so many memory banks in fabricated and weak hadith yet not given a few minutes thought and research into Numbers 31? Odd!<br />
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<strong><em>I truly hope this is a conversation that Hashim continues with this lady</em></strong>, she’s said (given her word) she will try and find out why Christians believe Moses (and TCVO Jesus?) ordered the killing of male children..<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">How many male children and married women were killed?</span></strong><br />
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Thom Stark (in his book response to Paul Copan) does a rough calculation of the number of Midianite boys and non-virgin women killed based on the number of virgin girls left alive. He estimates a total of 44,000 (forty four thousand) male children and non-virgin women were killed.<br />
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Let’s use Tooting, an area in south London, to help understand 44,000 people look like. <a href="http://tooting.localstats.co.uk/census-demographics/england/london/wandsworth/tooting" target="_blank">Tooting’s population as per a census in 2011 was about 16,000. </a><br />
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Imagine Sadiq Khan, London’s current mayor and a resident and former MP of Tooting, decides Tooting should be singularly used to house single mothers with male children. Everybody is heralding Sadiq Khan as a great guy for dedicating Tooting to single mothers with male children. The single mothers and the male children love the common, the tranquillity of Tooting, the travel connections, the lido, multi-cultural restaurants/shops and are so grateful to mayor Khan and the people of Tooting who left on mass to give the new inhabitants space to live in this district dedicated speicifically for them.<br />
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And then imagine the IRA or an Anders Brevijk type of terrorist massacred every inhabitant of Tooting, all the single mothers and male children.<br />
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<em>Then imagine that happening<strong> 3 times over!</strong></em><br />
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We’re talking about <u>a lot of male children and non virgin women</u> which the Christian lady believes TCVO Jesus and her prophet (Moses) wanted killed.<br />
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The more you think about it, the more amazed you are at the lady who clearly knows about this passage but yet has not asked <em>why</em>...<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;"> “As a Christian I don’t follow Moses”</span></strong><br />
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This was part of the Christian lady’s mechanism to distance her religion and Jesus from Moses. However, this lady <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzla2RJDobU" target="_blank">believes Jesus, upon his return, will return with a sword for his enemies (people who don’t believe in him)</a>. This defence mechanism does not stand up to scrutiny because if she was to compare TCVO Jesus with Moses, she will conclude Moses uses less violence than TCVO Jesus. Moses is more peaceful than who the church believes to be “the prince of peace”?<br />
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She’s going to reject the idea of TCVO Jesus and reject the biblical version of Moses if she’s consistent with the line of argumentation which was given to her by older missionaries, namely pick out an event in the life of Prophet Muhammad which was in the context of war and/or state leadership and isolate it in order to portray Prophet Muhammad in the most negative light possible.<br />
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Will she say something like this,<em> “Moses is a horrible example for mankind, he ordered the killing of so many young boys and women, <u>as a feminist I reject Moses as a prophet as no prophet would ever do this”</u></em><br />
Or <em>“TCVO Jesus is considered to be a prophet but <u>I’ve just learnt the Trinitarian church believe Jesus ordered the killing of mothers and children in 1 Samuel 15:3 so he’s clearly a false prophet who is a horrible example for mankind, he’s a sinful and evil person”</u></em><br />
Or,<em> “to be fair and honest<u>, if we were to compare Prophet Muhammad with TCVO Jesus, Prophet Muhammad uses less violence and is gentler and kinder towards women. TCVO Jesus is not somebody to be followed based on his attitude towards women and children</u>, this is without even considering TCVO Jesus is going to return with a sword for anybody who does not believe in him which means, if he returns tomorrow, he’s going to terrorise most of the world’s men and women for simply not believing in him”</em><br />
If she’s not going to say and believe this type of stuff, then Hashim is quite right in calling her <strong>inconsistent</strong>. Food for thought, for her and others like he!<br />
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Sadly, I suspect seniors in Christian polemics against Islam know all this but they feel they have to cling on to old-refuted and inconsistent polemics against Islam because they’ve (mis)invested so much time, emotional energy and money into such arguments. <a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Jay%20Smith" target="_blank">Jay Smith’s career</a> is pretty much defined by this line of inconsistent rhetoric.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">You know certain hadith but you don’t know Numbers 31?</span></strong><br />
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Great point!<br />
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Hashim calls into question how a Christian (the lady in this case but to be honest this lady is simply regurgitating the same script used by many [most?] Christians who argue against Islam) can know about certain hadith for polemical purposes (which, when they aren’t citing utterly fabricated hadith or others that are not accepted, they usually misrepresent or de-contectualise) but have never thought about Moses and Numbers 31. Ditto for 1 Samuel 15. Ditto for Exodus 21:20-21. <br />
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And, as highlighted above, she believes Moses was sanctioned by Jesus as she’s a Trinitarian. She still believes Moses is a prophet despite this and the Old Testament laws which Westernised Christians find difficult.<br />
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Can you imagine if there was a fabricated tradition which said Prophet Muhammad ordered the killing of ~40,000 male children. You can imagine Christians who so embroiled in low-level polemics against Islam would be yelling from the roof-tops, day and night about it. Yet, there’s a deafening silence about references such as Numbers 31. Why?<br />
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In fact, I'd bet all the estates the Church of England own on Christians having a field day if one of their polemical websites made up a "hadith" saying the Prophet ordered the killing of 40,000 Arabian pagan male children and kept the female ones alive. <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Inconsistency, a stubborn stain</span></strong><br />
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This ties back to the points made against the idea the Holy Spirit is guiding Christians, if there are Christians out there who are so inconsistent when talking about Islam, and they’ve followed the same modus operandi for decades, then how can a Christian truly accept that person is in-dwelt and sanctified by the Holy Spirit? We’re veering on to a different subject, it’s a subject I enjoy, I’ve posted about here:<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/does-holy-spirit-work-within-christians.html">Does The Holy Spirit Work Within Christians?</a><br />
<strong><br /><span style="background-color: yellow;">"Why are you comparing your god with my prophet"?</span></strong><br />
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I liked this question.<br />
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It’s really odd to hear Christians compare Jesus with Muhammad. Hashim thinks the comparison is unfair and he’d rather compare Allah with the Trinitarian idea of God: Allah can forgive without the blood of an innocent person (Christians believe in blood atonement) and worshipping Allah is not considered idolatry by those who follow the same religion as the people who were responsible for the Old Testament and decided what should be its canon (Jews consider worshipping Jesus to be idolatry).<br />
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However, if they want to compare TCVO Jesus to Muhammad, Hashim *could* indulge them.<br />
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If they were consistent with their thought-pattern, they'd believe Prophet Muhammad is more loving than TCVO Jesus!<br />
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Prophet Muhammad forbade the beating of slaves yet TCVO Jesus allowed the severe beating of slaves (including female slaves) in Exodus 21:20-21. Prophet Muhammad forbade the killing of women, children and innocent people in war whilst we’ve already established that Christians believe TCVO Jesus ordered the killing of children and women.<br />
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On this point, <a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html" target="_blank">I’d recommend the reader would read some thoughts in this post which discuss the idea of comparing Prophet Muhammad with Jesus.</a><br />
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That said, Prophet Muhammad was a leader of a state whilst Prophet Jesus was not so the missionary tactic of isolating punitive state laws or wars concerning Prophet Muhammad and comparing them with Jesus (who led a civilian life and was never a leader of a state) would be intellectually dishonest. <br />
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This line of thinking, if consistent, would mean that you’d accept Ghandi is more moral than Jesus, Moses and Abraham as Ghandi was not involved in any physical struggle. Or you’d see arguments like Richard Dawkins is better than Churchill and Moses because Rchard Dawkins did not use violence.<br />
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And, even arguments like, Richard Dawkins is more peaceful and loving than Jesus of the church gospels as Richard Dawkins did not threaten to come with a sword for his enemies. What are Christians going to do now, give up on the bible and accept Dawkins' God Delusion book and give up on worshipping a Middle Eastern man for worshipping an Englishman in Dawkins?<br />
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Come on folks, let's think by using brains rather than hormones. Rationality > emotions.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Conclusion</span></strong><br />
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Although the actual discussion was brief it raised the theme of consistency which is always important as inconsistency is a form of intellectual dishonesty if done deliberately. The discussion really helps break down what seems to be emotionally incontinent approaches where Christians try to unfairly and misleadingly compare Prophet Muhammad with Jesus in an attempt of one-upmanship.<br />
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In fact, Thom Stark, a Christian author, would probably agree with Hashim and consider his points to be valid:<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">“<u>since Christians believe that Jesus is God, and Muslims believe that Muhammad was a human prophet, it is patently unfair to try to measure Muhammad against Jesus</u>. <strong>Much more appropriate would be to measure Muhammad against Moses, and if Copan were to do that, guess who would be the shining beacon of light? Well, it wouldn’t be the elder of the two states-men. For one thing, Muhammad condemned the slaughter of non-combatants, women and children.</strong> Second, he embraced religious tolerance and believed that Christians, despite some theological flaws, were God’s people too, only with imperfect revelation. Moses, on the other hand, ordered and engaged in the slaughter of noncombatants, women and children, on a routine basis, and advocated for anything but religious tolerance”</span></em><br />
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Anybody, including Christians, who is willing to apply a level-headed attitude and a desire for intellectual fairness would fundamentally agree with what Hashim said and what is written in this commentary. Why is this getting lost in debates between Muslims and evangelical types? It’s because many Christians have, by intellectual osmosis, imbibed low-level polemics against Islam due to them being more prone to emotionalism. Irresponsible Christian missionaries and Christian polemicists marshalled anti-intellectual arguments and polemics into the discussion.<br />
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Another problem here is that of pride, a Christian social media riposte directed at me suggested to me that there is an attitude amongst some Christians that those who “engage” “publicly” with Muslims at Speakers Corner are “brave”. It really does not matter if one dialogues over the internet or in person, both are dialogues involving real people and souls (in fact, a good dialogue over the net trumps a bad dialogue in person which generates more heat than light). Let’s do away with the machismo. Pride can lead one to be blinded to how poor in argumentation you actually are. Is pride the reason behind the obvious flaws in this lady’s argumentation in this debate/discussion, is she blinded to the flaws therein but the rest of us can see them?<br />
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At the end of the day, this is something for Christians to address, all too often a Christian turns up arguing like the lady in the video and they go home pulling fluff and lint out of their hair as they were in the pocket of the Muslim they were arguing. These are lop-sided dialogues, Muslims come off far more sophisticated, intellectually honest and reasoned. My concern here is for young Christians switched on to the idea of consistency, who upon seeing the Christian missionary arguments back-fire and argue against Christianity and TCVO Jesus much more so than they do against Islam, wo may begin to question God or become anti-religion. On this subject,<a href="https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/do-acts-17-apologetics-and-pfander-films-contribute-to-apostasy-of-christians-b8aa89e89376" target="_blank"> I recommend reading this piece raising the concern that inconsistency Christians who argue against Islam are in fact contributing to Christians leaving the church.</a><br />
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It’s only going to get increasingly more common and more and more difficult for Christians as more people (thanks in part to the hardwork of people like Hashim who counter low level Christian polemics in popular videos online) are getting familiar with the difficult things Christians actually believe about TCVO Jesus. Numbers 31 and 1 Samuel 15 are not the extent of it, there’s more, much more. For Muslims, I recommend you watch <a href="https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/epic-response-to-nabeel-qureshi-sharing-reality-of-jesus-according-to-trinitarians-d70eb3ec7cde" target="_blank">this video to familiarise yourself with some of this stuff so you can use it wisely to help bring a Christian who is following the same trend as the lady to consistency</a>. However, if you’re an immature Muslim who just wants to learn about these difficulties to accost, troll and abuse unsuspecting young Christians online then I would suggest you find something better to do, these are discussions which need to be conducted by fair-minded, mature and intellectually honest people. We are talking about matters of faith here. Offending Christians is not the name of the game here.<br />
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Arming people with low-level polemics, one-line slogans and crummy arguments never works in the eyes of smart people or in the long-term, just look at what’s happened to the Christians and the way many of them come across as anti-intellectual and led by emotions in their dialogues.<strong><em> Learn from their mistakes</em></strong>. There’s a rise in secularism and an anti-religion (mainly anti-Abrahamic religions) sentiment which is sweeping much of the world. Muslims need to be intellectually equipped to deal with this. Learning and studying is key, in order to do so you have to drop your pride and recognise your areas of development. It would be a tragedy to see a generation of Muslims being inconsistent and anti-intellectual because of laziness and pride. <u>Again, learn from the mistakes of the Christians, let’s try not to make the same mistakes.</u><br />
<br />
<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/analysing-debate-is-christianity.html">Analysing The Debate: Is Christianity Destroying the World (Between A Young Preacher Bob The Builder and a Young Muslim)</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/analysing-jay-smiths-students-debate-at.html">Analysing Jay Smith's Student's Debate At Speakers Corner On Atonement</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-polemicists-on-love-quran-332.html">Christian Polemicists on Love, Quran 3:32, John 3:16 and Romans 5:8</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/jay-smith-did-john-write-down-what.html">Jay Smith, Did John Write Down What Jesus Said?</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/jay-smith-is-confident-hes-going-to.html">Jay Smith Is Confident He's Going to Paradise!</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/missionaries-misusing-hadith-sins-on.html">Missionaries Misusing the Hadith: Sins On Jews and Christians</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-uses-1-john-222-to-attack.html">Christian Uses 1 John 2:22 To Attack Prophet Muhammad (p)</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html">Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/a-difficulty-on-christian-idea-of.html">A Difficulty On the Christian Idea of Salvation and Forgiveness</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/synoptic-gospels-and-idea-of-pre.html">Synoptic Gospels and the Idea of a Pre-Existant Jesus?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/christian-inconsistency-around.html">Christian Inconsistency Around Arguments for Prophet Muhammad in the Bible</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/paula-fredriksen-paul-was-not.html">Paula Fredriksen: Paul was NOT a Trinitarian</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html" target="_blank">Christians having dreams and converting to Islam</a></span></strong></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-32611652011571097882018-01-03T11:39:00.001-08:002018-01-03T11:39:40.569-08:00Does The Holy Spirit Work Within Christians?Sadly, this is such an under-explored talking point.<br />
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It’s the notion that the Holy Spirit works continuous sanctification in the believer, causing him or her to grow in holiness and become, as the young preacher just said, more Christ like.<br />
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This video is also uploaded <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSeX9u3VCFo" target="_blank">here</a>, <a href="https://youtu.be/Vew9uDjyA8k">here</a> and <a href="https://vimeo.com/249554556">here</a><br />
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Many Christian preachers, like this young man (Godwin of Speakers Corner), make the claim of the Hoy Spirit indwelling them and working within them a sort of regeneration over time.<br />
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I want to explore the logical outworking here which I believe many preachers, really have not thought about in great depth.<br />
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The implication here, is essentially a falsification test. This belief can be demonstrated to be false. Practically demonstrated to be false by Christians themselves<br />
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Let me explain, what is essentially being said here is that a Christian who has been a Christian for a pretty lengthy amount of time should be able to be more morally upright than anybody else,<br />
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Let’s take somebody who has been a Christian for at least a decade,this person, in theory would have had the Holy Spirit working within them and making them more Christ-like for decade, 10 years.<br />
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But this is at loggerheads with what we observe within Christian communities. If this preacher truly believes the Holy Spirit works within Christians then how can he explain why Christians are often surpassed by other faith groups in self-discipline (avoiding sins) or the fact 75% of Christians are mired with struggle with pornography? <a href="https://www.premierchristianity.com/Past-Issues/2015/February-2015/Grey-Matter-50-Shades-pornography-and-the-shaping-of-our-brains">Martin Saunders</a> uses a straw poll he conducted in 2014 to show That’s 75% of Christian men engaging with pornography on, let’s say, a monthly basis.<br />
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Within those stats there are some interesting details, 42% said they would describe their behaviour as ‘compulsive or an addiction’<br />
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Are you trying to tell me 4/10 Christians have the Holy spirit in them yet can’t beat a serious addiction/compulsion to porn?<br />
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If, as the preacher believes, the Holy Spirit is working on these people and leading them to become holier then why can’t they break free from their struggles with pornography?<br />
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Are you not indirectly insulting the Holy spirit here in vocally declaring you have the Spiri indwelling within you whilst you, yourself, struggle with this issue of lust.<br />
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Just so we are clear, I’m not railing against men for having issues with lust, we all struggle with this, My concern here, is this religious claim of the Holy Spirit indwelling people<br />
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Now, other men of other faiths, non Christians, can manage to resist the temptation of pornography, the preacher, presumably believes this is done without the Holy Spirit. So is this not proof enough to suggest preacher’s argument for the Holy Spirit being within Christians is spurious at the very least. Surely, the preacher as a Christian, would not want to suggest non-Christians are capable of greater moral feats than those led by the Holy Spirit?<br />
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To throw another problem at preacher’s reasoning, what of those Christians who have been in the church for decades promoting and defending church doctrines and then leave the church because they apostatize? Does that not throw a spanner in the works for preacher’s claims of the Holy Spirit working within Christians and causing them to grow in [Christian] holiness. If this is the case why are we seeing older Christians leaving Christianity, surely if this was the case no decades-old Christian would leave the faith<br />
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Paul of Tarsus in Galatians 5 lists what he believes is the fruit of the Spirit:<br />
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22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.<br />
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Notice, this is all stuff (aside from Paul’s version of faith) you can observe in a Buddhist, Muslim, Sikh, Jew or even dare I say an Atheist. But also notice the words peace, gentleness and meekness — our Christian friends may be a little surprised to <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEqDtjSROKA">see a couple of rabbis suggesting Christians are arguably the most violent people in history</a>. How is this if Christians have the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit leads to peace and gentleness? How can other groups (Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims etc.) be seen as more peaceful and gentle than Christians? <br />
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So what exactly do Christians believe the Holy Spirit gives them that others cannot achieve in character and moral standing? Should Christians not rethink their beliefs about the Holy Spirit?<br />
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Is this belief not ultimately a practical insult to the Holy Spirit? That’s a rhetorical question for Christians to wrestle with.<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/disrespectful-christian-lady-shouting.html">Disrespectful Christian Lady Shouting At Adnan Rashid Over Manchester Terrorist Attack</a> <br />
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<a href="https://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/analysing-debate-is-christianity.html">Analysing The Debate: Is Christianity Destroying the World (Between A Young Preacher Bob The Builder and a Young Muslim)</a> </div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-55774983853012333182018-01-03T11:13:00.000-08:002018-01-03T11:39:56.184-08:00Analysing The Debate: Is Christianity Destroying the World (Between A Young Preacher Bob The Builder and a Young Muslim)I skimmed through the first part of a video from Speakers Corner featuring a young Christian and a young Muslim entitled <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq06DU2dSwU&t=1718s" target="_blank">IS CHRISTIANITY DESTROYING THE WORLD? BR QASIM & BOB THE BUILDER.</a><br />
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I did not watch the second part, personally I’m not in favour of debate titles and topics like this as all religions have fine teachings, Christianity is very similar to Islam in many aspects thus has much good in it.<br />
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What does this debate achieve? Does it advance Muslim-Christian dialogue? Does it achieve more heat rather than light? Does it bring the Christian closer to pure Abrahamic monotheism? These are questions for the debaters to think about.
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Having said that, let’s go through some of the debate points<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Interest based economics</span></strong> <br />
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Qasim claims Christianity encourages the exploiting of the poor through the economic system - interest based economics. He puts forward Deut 23:20 to contend the Bible allows the exploitation of foreigners. I guess, this was a bridge for him to talk about how the colonialists in the West treated the Africans and Asians they conquered.<br />
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Qasim also believes all the wars of the last two centuries are all related to the (Christian) West. <br />
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I don't think Bob the Builder directly addressed these claims in the part I watched (part 1), Bob spoke about Christian charities and a separation of the West and Christianity.<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">20 You may charge a foreigner interest, but not a fellow Israelite, so that the Lord your God may bless you in everything you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess</span></em>. [Deut 23]<br />
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Qasim basically railed against a rampant capitalism which he links to Christianity. This idea of modern capitalism being related to Protestant Christianity goes back to Max Werber's theory around the Reformation. His work is a complicated read, you can find it online. Many people reference to it. I don't really think it has much value in Muslim-Christian apologetics.<br />
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Qasim highlighted the weakness in the teaching of separating religion from the state, the idea of give to Caesar what is his. He believes this is part of the reason why an immoral capitalism and consumerism is plaguing the West. Qasim says the same applies to pornography production. I suspect a great number of ills in society could be linked to the teaching of giving to Caesar what is his.<br />
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I do believe this is a major problem in Christianity, Paul of Tarsus did not envisage his religion spreading and existing as a global religion which would have influence on various lands and countries hence why he nor other writers of the New Testament taught about Christian governance, There was near-sightedness on the part of Paul and the other NT authors, they could never envisage being the dominant culture and religious movement in the Roman Empire and thus taught a subservience to Roman (non Christian) rule. If you truly believe you have a message from God, then why would you not want the teachings of that message to be foremost in the governing of a country?<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Bible and alcohol</span></strong> <br />
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For Qasim, alcolol is a legalised Christian drug. He feels Christianity encourages poor people to drink alcohol. He suggests the problems of alcohol dependency in aboriginal Australian communities go back to the Bible.<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">Let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.</span></em> [Proverbs 31:7]<br />
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Bob's response was to talk about how alcohol existed prior to Christianity and that it's permissible to drink alcohol but not abuse alcohol. Drinking in moderation is allowed according to Bob the Builder.<br />
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The problem here for Bob is that even in moderation, alcohol has been shown to be a risk factor to certain cancers. And if one knows anything about alcohol, you'll know that it's difficult to moderate one's drinking as alcohol by its very nature makes one lose their inhibitions incrementally.<br />
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Surely a better teaching would be to forbid alcohol outright.<br />
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<strong>Lip service or sincerely held beliefs?</strong><br />
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In Qasim's mind, the principle of "love your neighbour" is just rhetoric, political lip-service. I don’t reckon this is the case given that many Christians are charitable and many Christians consider helping poor people a Christian teaching. Muslims and Christians are perhaps the most charitable people in the world. For Muslims, we would say this stems back to the teachings of the Quran and the Sunnah, Islam has a big emphasis on charity and looking after the poor. I think, likewise, for Christians who involve themselves in efforts of charity, they will say this originates from their Church traditions. Bob the Builder, iirc, listed some Christian charities in the video.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">A racist ideology of white supremacy?</span></strong><br />
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Qasim finds the practice of Christians depicting Jesus as a white man problematic to a healthy society. He believes Christianity is a racist ideology which teaches people to worship a white man.<br />
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Bob does not really dispute the claim that many Christians (in the West) have made Jesus into a white man but his argument here is that other Christians of other cultures make Jesus into their images; Christians in Japan and Ethiopia make Jesus into a Japanese or East African respectively.<br />
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The problem here, for Bob, is that this does not fully counter the various offshoots of Qasim’s claim. If Christianity allows people to make Jesus into their own racial image does this not leave the door open for the most economically and geo-politically advanced Christian group (at this time, Western European Christians) to promote supremacy of their race subconsciously? <br />
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It’s an interesting thought. An interesting discussion could spring from what Qasim said as long as it is done in a mature and thoughtful way.<br />
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The other problem here, for Bob, is that he’s openly admitted Christians make Jesus (that’s God for Trinitarians) into their own image. So what are these Japanese, East African and Western European Christians doing here? Could it be argued that they are involved in a form of pride and self-worship in portraying God in their own phenotypes?<br />
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This seemed to be a touchy subject and Bob lost his sense of respect, charity and decorum (<a href="https://youtu.be/o0cf3R_CX3c" target="_blank">again</a>). Bob the Builder was <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBLyXixXbYU&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">wildly out of order in accusing the young Muslim, Qasim, of hating “White European” people.</a> This is a hefty allegation and it’s reckless to make such public assertions based on what is no evidence at all. Qasim should seek a public apology from Bob the Builder for slander (perhaps even seek legal counsel if such a retraction is not made as claims like those can lead to one losing standing in society, be it social or economic). Make no bones about it, this was a serious a case of slander, it should not be taken lightly and brushed off as normal behaviour at Speakers Corner, Hyde Park.<br />
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Bob the Builder, if he’s a Bible-believing Trinitarian church traditionalist then he may well believe Jesus is calling him (Bob) a “fool”:<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">“...and whoever utters slander is a fool”</span></em> [Proverbs 10:18]<br />
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Again, this is a shocking statement, one in which fair-minded Christians and Muslims should rebuke Bob for and politely ask Bob to retract this. It sets a very worrying precedent where young people could feel making false charges of racism (and other things) is an unchallenged norm. <br />
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<em><span style="color: #990000;">“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour”</span></em> [Exodus 20:16]<br />
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<a href="https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/christian-belief-in-the-holy-spirit-does-not-make-sense-400c7cf02dc2" target="_blank">This ties in with a recent discussion featuring a young Christian preacher (Godwin) at Speakers Corner on whether the Holy Spirit sanctifies and guides Christians in holiness</a>. I think this type of behaviour by evangelicals is a practical demonstration they do not have the Holy Spirit regenerating them. <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Drug use and a shame culture?</span></strong><br />
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Bob states prohibition of drugs in Islamic countries has not stopped drug use in Muslim countries such as Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan. This seems quite a vacuous statement. Prohibition of drink driving, rape, drugs and theft has not prevented such crimes miring societies the world over - there will always be outliers in every society.<br />
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He argues that Muslim countries cannot tackle opium abuse problems because Islam creates a shame culture. Every culture has taboo and shame around drugs and other immoral behaviour - including Christian cultures. Bob's polemic is myopic and poorly thought out. It's not Islam that creates shame culture, in fact, if somebody is struggling with an addiction then it would be meritorious for other Muslims to help that person battle his/her addiction. Part of helping people against addictions to alcohol or drugs is to ban alcohol and drugs so it is less widely available.<br />
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As Qasim rightly pointed out, Afghanistan’s drug production is linked to the West. I thought the young Muslim did well to outline the politico-historical circumstances around the opium production in Afghanistan (Afghanistan shares borders with Iran and Pakistan so it’s hardly surprising that those neighbouring countries are effected by the lucrative drugs trade leaving many victims of drug abuse and addicts in its wake).<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Being superficial on slavery - old polemics</span></strong><br />
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Slavery, Bob’s argument is the usual superficial argument that Christian countries banned slavery before Muslim countries did. When I was researching this subject a while back I noticed the prohibition of slavery coincided with the industrial revolution. It does not take Einstein to figure out that there may well be a correlation here; the Muslim countries were not in a position to dispense with man-power (a large bulk of it was from slaves) whilst Western (Christian) were in that position due to the Industrial Revolution.<br />
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We must never downplay, the role the slaves in the Caribbean played in gaining their own freedom, they rebelled. These rebellions were costly, making it less cost-effective to continue slavery. The concern here is to avoid the idea of African slaves being wholly dependent upon the Christian's/West's love for their freedom. Slaves were very much part of helping the push for abolition.<br />
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Quite often, Christian apologists/evangelists seemingly make out Christianity was the chief driving force in the abolition movement. This is not true, common sense dictates it is not true as Christianity was around when the slave trade was flourishing (by the efforts of Christians)!<br />
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Furthermore, I recall seeing pamphlets from the pro-slavery lobby in the UK which opposed the anti-slavery lobby. Both sides actually used the Bible to support their stances!<br />
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Let’s see Christian move beyond simplistic polemics. Smart and informed people can see through them. Christians often complain about an anti-intellectualism amongst their fellow Christians, when you have so many preachers and apologists serving up old, tired and simplistic rhetoric (effectively propaganda harrumphs) which have little academic value, is there any surprise anti-intellectualism is so wide-spread in Christian communities? <br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">“Prophet Muhammad and his followers had slaves"</span></strong><br />
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This was one of Bob’s unfair talking points.<br />
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Slavery existed before Islam and it was embedded in the community whilst Islam was being Revealed.<br />
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For Bob, the 2nd person of the Trinity idea (later to become Jesus) gave Moses laws on buying and selling slaves in Exodus 21.<br />
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Prophet Muhammad promoted the freeing of slaves, so much so that if people, over the years, followed his instructions diligently the slaves of every community would have been freed, thus effectively ending slavery aside from new war captives. In Islam, the Trans-Atlantic slave trade would be considered immoral as going out to kidnap and enslave them is against the ethics Islam. Why not mention that at Speakers Corner, Bob the Builder?<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">This is one of the basic principles of Islam. When the question is asked: why does Islam permit slavery? We reply emphatically and without shame that slavery is permitted in Islam,<u> but we should examine the matter with fairness and with the aim of seeking the truth</u>, and we should examine the details of the rulings on slavery in Islam, with regard to the sources and reasons for it, and how to deal with the slave and how his rights and duties are equal to those of the free man, and the ways in which he may earn his freedom, of which there are many in sharee’ah, whilst also taking into consideration the new types of slavery in this world which is pretending to be civilized, modern and progressive. </span></em><br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">When Islam came, there were many causes of slavery, such as warfare, debt (where if the debtor could not pay off his debt, he became a slave), kidnapping and raids, and poverty and need. </span></em><br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">Slavery did not spread in this appalling manner throughout all continents except by means of kidnapping; rather the main source of slaves in Europe and America in later centuries was this method. </span></em><br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;"><u>The texts of Islam took a strong stance against this</u>. It says in a hadeeth qudsi: “Allaah, may He be exalted, said: ‘There are three whose opponent I will be on the Day of Resurrection, and whomever I oppose, I will defeat … <strong>A man who sold a free man and consumed his price.’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2227).</strong> </span></em><br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">It is worth pointing out that you do not find any text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah which enjoins taking others as slaves, whereas there are <strong>dozens of texts in the Qur’aan and the ahaadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which call for manumitting slaves and freeing them.</strong> </span></em><br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">There were many sources of slaves at the time of the advent of Islam, whereas the means of manumitting them were virtually nil.<u> Islam changed the way in which slavery was dealt with; it created many new ways of liberating slaves, blocked many ways of enslaving people, and established guidelines which blocked these means</u>. </span></em> [Source <a href="https://islamqa.info/en/94840">https://islamqa.info/en/94840</a>]<br />
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Paul of Tarsus, purported to be inspired by God, encouraged slaves to obey their masters in Ephesians 6, Paul did not have an issue with slavery...<br />
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Bob the Builder’s Trinitarian Church Version of Jesus, not only allowed slaves in the Old and New Testament, but TCVO Jesus also allowed the severe beating of slaves in Exodus 21, both females (yes female slaves could be beaten severely too!) and males. The Prophet of Islam forbade beating slaves.<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.</span></em> [Exodus 21 – Bible]<br />
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I’ve noticed this mudslinging around slavery seems to be a common practice amongst anti-Islam evangelicals. I would encourage them to start thinking deeper on the topic and read what Muslim scholars are saying about it. <br />
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Again, let’s see Christian folks move away from low level polemic be it in parks or online.<br />
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<strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Summary</span></strong><br />
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The young Muslim involved in the dialogue is clearly an intelligent person who is learned in history, current affairs and global politics but I can’t help to wonder how much better he’d come off if he planned the topics of the debate a week in advance and consulted under the tutelage of more experienced Muslims on possible topics to discuss as well as talking points.<br />
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I do believe debates on such topics can potentially be unhelpfully divisive (especially when done in a confrontational and prideful way) and ultimately end up pitting Muslims and Christians against each other, offline and online, in mudslinging echo chambers. Perhaps this debate served to ratchet up antagonism against Muslims hence Bob’s slander and some of the racist and threatening anti-Muslim comments on the Christian channel which also uploaded the debate. I would encourage serious minded Christians to make a public condemnation of this type of rhetoric as <a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/jay-smiths-pfander-films-asked-to.html" target="_blank">we have seen it before from online folks who were following Jay Smith's videos</a>. Let's see this toxic element marginalised and rebuked publicly by our Christian friends.<br />
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Let’s try our utmost to ensure discussion brings about understanding and good fruit.
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/analysing-jay-smiths-students-debate-at.html">Analysing Jay Smith's Student's Debate At Speakers Corner On Atonement</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-polemicists-on-love-quran-332.html">Christian Polemicists on Love, Quran 3:32, John 3:16 and Romans 5:8</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/jay-smith-did-john-write-down-what.html">Jay Smith, Did John Write Down What Jesus Said?</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/jay-smith-is-confident-hes-going-to.html">Jay Smith Is Confident He's Going to Paradise!</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/missionaries-misusing-hadith-sins-on.html">Missionaries Misusing the Hadith: Sins On Jews and Christians</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-uses-1-john-222-to-attack.html">Christian Uses 1 John 2:22 To Attack Prophet Muhammad (p)</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html">Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/a-difficulty-on-christian-idea-of.html">A Difficulty On the Christian Idea of Salvation and Forgiveness</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/synoptic-gospels-and-idea-of-pre.html">Synoptic Gospels and the Idea of a Pre-Existant Jesus?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/christian-inconsistency-around.html">Christian Inconsistency Around Arguments for Prophet Muhammad in the Bible</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/paula-fredriksen-paul-was-not.html">Paula Fredriksen: Paul was NOT a Trinitarian</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html" target="_blank">Christians having dreams and converting to Islam</a></span></strong></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="mailto:yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
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Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-57266349177066349562017-12-26T09:53:00.000-08:002017-12-26T09:53:09.694-08:00Analysing Jay Smith's Student's Debate At Speakers Corner On AtonementThis is a review and commentary on <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXuSIlFIQeU" target="_blank">a Muslim –Christian dialogue video which I saw online</a>. The Muslim is Hashim (a popular speaker for Islam at Speakers Corner) and the Christian, Elizabeth Schofield of St Nicholas Church, Tooting.<br />
<br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Dusters and uneven scales</span></strong><br /><br />Lizzie Schofield begins by throwing dust in the air. She makes a big deal about nothing. In her view it’s a contradiction if one believes in works/good deeds alongside the belief that you’ll only go into Paradise through Allah’s (God’s) mercy.<br /><br />This is one of the traits I don’t like about Lizzie. She goes into simplistic and shallow thinking when talking about Islam just to make room for a polemic to attack Islam<br />
<br />Good deeds are the product of sincere faith. Sincere faith and good deeds are due to the mercy of God. It is due to God’s mercy that He rewards good deeds. Ultimately, every blessing is due to the mercy of God; the decision to forgive somebody and permit them in heaven is due to God’s mercy when all things are said and done.<br /><br />There is no contradiction.<br /> <br />Lizzie will jump through hoops to support ideas such as the god-man dying or the trinity in an effort to justify these church beliefs as non-contradictory yet she will not even go beyond surface level thought when talking about Islam. There’s a reason for this, she will not have any polemics left (and will ultimately have to consider Islam seriously).<br /><br />A Catholic would understand this so perhaps Lizzie’s limitation in this regard is just simply born out of her denomination and the crowd she’s involved with.<br />Paul (not Williams, of Tarsus) talks about God giving eternal life as a reward in some sense in Romans 2:<br />
<br /><em><span style="color: #660000;">6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[</span></em><a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:6-7#fen-NIV-27969a"><em><span style="color: #660000;">a</span></em></a><em><span style="color: #660000;">] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.</span></em><br />Would Lizzie says this contradicts Romans 3:24 which talks about justification by grace<br /><br /><span style="color: #660000;"><em>24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,</em></span><br /><br />Catholics would say our good works are a product of God’s grace and mercy. Catholics would argue the “reward” for the good works in Romans 2 is ultimately due to God’s grace.<br /><br />Is this a contradiction the Bible? I don’t think so.<br /><br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">You’ve heard of James the Just, meet Hashim the Just</span></strong><br /><br />Hashim then argues against the Christian view of blood atonement. Is this not unjust?<br /><br />This is a good argument: a moral issue of an innocent person suffering for somebody else.<br /> <br />Hashim mentions the wrath of God being poured out on Jesus in the Church’s beliefs.<br /> <br /><em>God’s anger toward sin has been satisfied in Christ because His wrath was poured out on Him, at Calvary</em>.[Robert L Deffinbaugh]<br /><br /><em><span style="color: #660000;">24 </span></em><a href="https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Pet%202.24#footnote1"><em><span style="color: #660000;">e</span></em></a><em><span style="color: #660000;">He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we </span></em><a href="https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Pet%202.24#footnote2"><em><span style="color: #660000;">f</span></em></a><em><span style="color: #660000;">might die to sin and </span></em><a href="https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Pet%202.24#footnote3"><em><span style="color: #660000;">g</span></em></a><em><span style="color: #660000;">live to righteousness. </span></em><a href="https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Pet%202.24#footnote4"><em><span style="color: #660000;">h</span></em></a><em><span style="color: #660000;">By his wounds you have been healed.</span></em> [1 Peter 2:24]<br /><br />Lizzie does try to address this point by appealing to John 10:18, discussed later in this commentary.<br /><br /><strong>Penal Substitutionary Atonement</strong><br /><br />We’re talking about a penal substitutionary atonement. If Lizzie and her church believe their sins were put on/in Jesus on the tree then are they saying Jesus suffered for every sin they do/did?<br /> <br />Are they saying the sin of a Christian bloke viewing porn was put on Jesus? How about the sin of lying? Every time Lizzie Schofield (or any Christian lie) or behave rudely, does that mean this sin was put on Jesus for him to suffer more pain?<br /><br />If you truly believe this, the idea that every one of your sins (including being intellectually dishonest, lying about Islam, lying about Muslims, heckling Muslims, being rude and abusive towards Muslims, misrepresenting Islam etc.) means/meant Jesus felt more pain then; then why do we continually see so much sin in the church and amongst Christians?<br /><br />How about the sin of a rapist? Are you saying the sin of rape was put on Jesus and he suffered for it? The sin of every rapist who became Christian and/or was a Christian?<br /> <br />Is that fair? Why should Jesus be punished for rape, bestiality, murder, racism, hypocrisy and other sins he did not commit?<br /><br />This is a splinter of what Hashim is driving at here. Is this just?<br /> <br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow; color: black;">Ezekiel</span></strong><br /><br />Hashim also mentioned a verse in Ezekiel which seems to contradict the idea of somebody else suffering for your sins<br /> <br />I think he was referring to Ezekiel 18:20<br /><br /><em><span style="color: #660000;">The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.</span></em><br /><br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Lizzie was willing to consider Islam and doubted Christianity? [#3.40]</span></strong><br />Lizzie, now goes on to talk about how she had some doubts in faith after her last debate with Hashim. Apparently, if she’s not bending truth for effect (and having made Jesus feel even more pain according to her beliefs?), Lizzie was moved to think about what Hashim said in the last debate and began to think she could be wrong about her beliefs and Islam may be right. If the plain meaning of what she said is taken as true, then I applaud Lizzie for thinking about what the Muslim said. That is very, very encouraging.<br /><br />However, I don’t agree with Lizzie Schofield’s thinking here. She says Hashim said to her if she comes to Islam she will be saved (this is of course is true - saved from being cut off from the presence of God, saved from the wrath of God, saved from Hell). What I don’t agree with is Lizzie being moved by a promise of salvation. A bloke could turn up at the park next week and make up a religion, Selfianity, and promise everybody Heaven as long as they believed and done what they wanted.<br /><br />Would you consider that faith?<br /> <br />We should not be moved like this based on fluffy promises, regardless of how satisfied and good they could potentially make us feel. This is emotionalism. I always get the feeling, when listening to Lizzie, and to be honest, many Christians, that they are involved in the church because of this type of emotionalism, and/or support network that the church offers.<br /><br />It’s clear that every faith offers salvation and promises salvation. But we must look into the theology of that faith rather than being moved by promises which may make us feel good.<br /><br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Is the Bible clear on Faith/Works Salvation?</span></strong><br /><br />At 5 mins Lizzie says the Bible teaches, “clearly”, our works will not lead us to salvation and it’s the grace of God which will save us.<br /><br />This statement is not true for Lizzie (if Lizzie is consistent).The Bible is not clear on this issue, why else are evangelicals arguing with the biggest and the older church (Catholics) on this very topic? There’s a grey area here which should give us pause. The verse I showed above mentions a reward for works (Romans 2)<br /><br />IF Lizzie is consistent, she would say the Bible is contradictory. But of course, she’s adopted a hermeneutic of friendship for her church tradition but for Islam it’s a polemical hermeneutical approach; if she’s doing it knowingly, that is intellectual dishonesty (which is a sin, something which Jesus suffers further pain for on her behalf according to her faith?)<br /><br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Would Martin Luther agree with Lizzie Schofield?</span></strong><br /><br />I’d like to quickly show that even for Martin Luther, this idea was not terribly clear. Bart Erhman summarises this:<br /><br /><em>Since the Reformation, but especially since the 19th century, scholars of the Bible have noted that there are theological differences, sometimes big differences, among the books that made it into the New Testament. Martin Luther himself recognized this. When he made his famous German translation of the New Testament – which in German Protestantism carried the same kind of reverential awe and respect as the King James Version did in English-speaking Protestantism – he, as is well known, did indeed (of course) translate all 27 books. But rather than following their traditional, canonical order, he put four of the books in an “appendix” at the end: Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation.<br /> <br /> The reason: he wasn’t really sure about the revelatory character of these books. His best known complaints were about James. The letter of James is quite explicit that a person is NOT “justified” (that is, put into a restored relationship with God) “by faith alone” but “by works.” For James, “faith without works is dead. Indeed, Scripture itself teaches that a person is justified by works through the example of Abraham. James quotes Genesis 15:6 to prove it. “And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” For James, this faith in God justified Abraham because of what he did: he willingly offered up his son Isaac on the altar to God as a sacrifice. And so it was not simply by believing God that he was justified, it was by doing something about it. (See James 2:14-26)<br /> <br /> Luther considered this view to stand in flat contradiction to the gospel proclaimed by Paul, who was equally explicit. For Paul, a person is “justified by faith, not by the works of the law, for by works of the law will no one be justified” (See Romans 3 and Galatians 2). Paul backs up this view by appealing to Scripture – specifically to Abraham, precisely also the person named by James! What is more striking, he quotes exactly the same verse, Genesis 15:6, to prove it. For Paul, Abraham was justified (in Gen. 15) BEFORE he “did” anything (e.g., before he circumcised his son Isaac in Gen.17). And so justification comes before, not because of, works.</em><br /> <a href="https://ehrmanblog.org/taming-the-diversity-of-the-new-testament/">https://ehrmanblog.org/taming-the-diversity-of-the-new-testament/</a><br /><br />Personally, I don’t really care for this topic right now, it’s drifting away from the debate but it’s certainly something which I’d encourage Christians to think about – including Lizzie Schofield.<br /><br /><strong>Hashim: Christians are not certain of their salvation</strong><br /><br />Hashim goes on to tackle this idea amongst certain Christians that they will certainly go to Heaven. <a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/jay-smith-is-confident-hes-going-to.html" target="_blank">The bulk of this is captured in this video. I would recommend you watch this short video</a> and learn that in reality,Christians who have imbibed emotionalism, and strut about claiming they will certainly go to paradise. are not consistent with their texts. Hashim does a good job in bringing up important and relevant verses which are overlooked by this type of Christian in their dopamine fuelled proclamations.<br />
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<br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Lizzie was deceived by an anti-Islam missionary website/missionary about a Hadith?</span></strong><br /><br />Lizzie tries to nullifies Hashim’s philosophical criticism of vicarious atonement as being unjust with a tu quoque fallacy. The idea that you have this concept as well...<br /><br />She tries to build this on old refuted internet polemics from the usual websites by misrespresenting a Hadith and stating that in Islam, Muslims will go to Paradise and be saved from Hell because a Jew/Christian will suffer in their place.<br /> <br />No. No. No. This Hadith has already been explained. I don’t understand why nobody in the anti-Islam Christian camp is relaying this response to other Christians so they don’t end up further propagating distortions of somebody’ else’s faith (which would be a sin, if done knowingly - meaning Jesus suffered more pain on the cross according to the church?).<br /><br />The Hadith in question does not teach penal substititutionary atonement. Muslims don’t view it literally. <a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/missionaries-misusing-hadith-sins-on.html" target="_blank">It’s explained here.</a><br />
<br />You’ve got to represent our beliefs accurately, folks. Even if it means you have drop the polemics some older missionary/polemicist handed to you.<br /><br />So, will somebody get the message across to those polemicists because I’ve seen this misleading polemic bandied about before.<br /><br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">The idea that God dies by his own creation...</span></strong><br /><br />The Muslim speaker, Hashim brought up the issue around the blood atonement: God dying by his own creation. Lizzie did not pick up on this point and expand this talking point. That may just be because she was pushed for time or forgot. This is a very important discussion as the set Christian response based on orthodox Christian theology leads Christians, in my view, into a few different theological conundrums which I would like to see explored – this topic is of paramount importance. I think a properly conducted dialogue on this topic will help a Christian to see Christian beliefs to be contradictory and unravelled upon deeper thought.<br /> <br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Lizzie’s admission on hell implicates her in double standards (sin?)</span></strong><br /><br />Hashim got Lizzie Schofield to admit she believes the Bible teaches that non Christians (unbelievers) will be put in Hell forever. This was an notable admission because, previously, Lizzie (and Hatun Tash) had been attacking Islam for the belief that unbelievers go to Hell.<br /><br />This video highlights this inconsistency on their part:<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html">http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html</a><br /><br />Like I say, if this was deliberate, it means Lizzie and Hatun were sinning (and having caused Jesus to suffer more pain according to their faith?) when attacking Islam because they were being intellectually dishonest. If it was not deliberate, then it begs the question, why are they preaching “Christianity” and what did Jay Smith, CJ Davis and Beth Grove teach them if they did not know this about their own faith a few months ago?<br /><br />It’s a valid point for consideration.<br /> <br /><strong>Lizzie partially quotes John 10:18</strong><br /><br />Lizie (~13 mins) did try and address the issue of injustice (an innocent person suffering for somebody else) by arguing Jesus laid down his life willingly. Lizzie appealed to John 10:18 selectively. Crucially she did not cite the full verse, she omitted the last sentence of the verse – a sentence which could conflict with her interpretation. This<a href="https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/john-10-18-partially-quoted-fb00ed6ad553" target="_blank"> issue was addressed here in more detail</a> alongside Matthew 26:39 where Jesus is said to be praying to the Father to save him (Jesus) from death (Lizzie, if consistent, would claim this verse contradicts her interpretation of John 10:18)<br /><br />She quickly moved on in an effort to use this verse to support the idea that he was God. Unconvincing.<br /><br />Two points of consideration on this:<br /><br />1. I’d imagine Unitarians would simply argue that Jesus was given power by the Father thus the ability to raise yourself from death is not a proof of divinity – think about the proclamation in Acts 2:22 where it says miracles were worked by God through Jesus. I *think* this is how Hashim would have responded if he had had time to pick this up.<br /><br />2. For me, folks should be awfully wary when somebody quotes anything from John purported to be from the mouth of Jesus. We know scholars believe John changes things for theological reasons (for instance the day of the crucifixion) and we know scholars believe the sayings such as the I AM sayings are untrustworthy. Let’s be mindful of these things so we can have a healthier approach to John’s gospel. Remember, it’s John who introduced the spear thrust into the narrative. Let’s be wary, if one or more of the authors of John lie (or introduce spurious material into the story about Jesus unknowingly), then what’s there to say other parts of this gospel are not of the same spurious nature?<br /><br />For more on John see here for the following two videos <em>Craig Evans: Some Sayings in John Weren’t Said By Jesus</em> and the video<em> Is John’s Gospel Reliable;</em><br />
<a href="https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/is-john-reliable-2-videos-74aa580e6113">https://medium.com/@yahyasnow/is-john-reliable-2-videos-74aa580e6113</a><br /><br /><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Lizzie’s mistake on 1 John 2 Corrected by Hashim</span></strong><br /><br />Lizzie was teaching the idea that Jews and anybody else who does not believe Jesus is the messiah (christ) is an antichrist. I think this verse would not fit in with today’s society I point this out as many anti-Islam Christians use today’s societal norms as judge, jury and executioner on what is true and what is not true religion.<br /><br />Lizzie’s mistake was to assert this verse refers to Prophet Muhammad. She was unaware that the Quran teaches Muslims that Jesus is indeed the messiah. Hashim, did a splendid job in recalling this and bringing it to the attention of the audience – Lizzie included. A very important intervention by Hashim, a much needed one. The last thing we need is more misconceptions about Islam and Muslims. This debate was well worth the listen just for this part.<br /><br />You catch this bit here<br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-uses-1-john-222-to-attack.html">http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-uses-1-john-222-to-attack.html</a><br /><br /><strong>Final thoughts</strong><br />
<br />Overall, this was one of the more coherent and cordial Muslim-Christian dialogues at Speakers Corner. To give Lizzie Schofield her due, her behaviour has improved markedly since a concerted effort online to highlight unbecoming and unloving behaviour from Christians at SC. Hashim praised her for more controlled behaviour in this dialogue at the end of the debate; opening up the possibility for further dialogue. I’ve always believed this, even back when Lizzie was behaving erratic in videos, she’s the more reasonable out of the Jay Smith/DCCI Ministries crew. This is actually one of the reasons why she receives more opprobrium than the others – deep down she knows and is better than many of the things she’s said/done.<br /><br /> I would personally advise her to ditch the young guys who flank her and heckle for her. You’re a grown-up person, you really don’t need immature cheerleaders or supporters yelling and heckling for you from the margins whilst serious discussion is trying to take place – those young guys look uncontrolled and unsophisticated. There’s a bit of that in this discussion with Hashim – thankfully Hashim was experienced enough to not allow it to detract from the dialogue.<br /> <br />The fact remains, the paranoia and the “us vs them” mentality that Beth Grove and Smith injected into Speakers Corner is being overcome, slowly but surely. I also applaud Lizzie for thinking about what Hashim said, if she indeed did think Islam may be the truth. Hashim should try to engage with her more at the park, perhaps off camera as pride and cheerleaders should not influence important discussions and decisions concerning God. <br />
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</span></span><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-polemicists-on-love-quran-332.html">Christian Polemicists on Love, Quran 3:32, John 3:16 and Romans 5:8</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/grooming-crimes-which-tommy-robinson.html">Grooming Crimes Which Tommy Robinson and Britain First Will Not Publicise As Much</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/queen-james-bible-and-islamophobes.html">Queen James Bible and the Islamophobes</a> <br /><br /><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html" target="_blank">Christians having dreams and converting to Islam</a></span></strong></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-18233788368651011992017-12-22T14:10:00.002-08:002017-12-22T14:10:59.355-08:00Christian Uses 1 John 2:22 To Attack Prophet Muhammad (p)In this video, a Christian is claiming Prophet Muhammad is the Anti Christ based on 1 John 2:22. She shortly learns that Muslims believe Jesus is the Christ (Messiah). See Quran 3:45 and 4:171.<br />
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<iframe allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" gesture="media" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/mRmYaf5lKoQ?rel=0&showinfo=0" width="460"></iframe>
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This video is also <a href="https://vimeo.com/248523825" target="_blank">uploaded here</a> and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2wHHEa6u5Q" target="_blank">here</a><br />
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1 John 2: 22 <br />
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/what-is-true-lesson-from-fall-of-adam.html">WHAT IS THE TRUE LESSON FROM THE FALL OF ADAM AND EVE - AQIL ONQUE</a> Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-44683834599573763302017-12-22T13:18:00.000-08:002017-12-22T13:20:20.335-08:00Missionaries Misusing the Hadith: Sins On Jews and ChristiansThis hadeeth is to be found in Saheeh Muslim (2767), narrated from Abu Moosa (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said: “On the Day of Resurrection, some of the Muslims will come with sins like mountains, but Allaah will forgive them and will put them (the sins) onto the Jews and Christians.” So this hadeeth is saheeh<br />
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For explanations of this hadith:<br />
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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/redirect?v=9scdUQcSoak&event=video_description&q=https%3A%2F%2Fislamqa.info%2Fen%2F9488&redir_token=k9p2XulOopkV249FoOGJ9RoIiOF8MTUxNDA2MzEwMkAxNTEzOTc2NzAy">https://islamqa.info/en/9488</a><br />
<a href="https://islamqa.info/en/198745">https://islamqa.info/en/198745</a><br />
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<iframe allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" gesture="media" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9scdUQcSoak?rel=0" width="460"></iframe><br />
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This video has also <a href="https://vimeo.com/248519245" target="_blank">been uploaded here</a> and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPCuyBnZfo&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">here</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/did-jay-smith-not-teach-hatun-tash.html">Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?</a> <br />
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<br />Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-5242635437122156852017-12-22T11:05:00.002-08:002017-12-22T11:05:58.798-08:00Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?<br />
Jay Smiths former colleague, Lizzie Schofield, admits she believes the Bible teaches that non Christians (unbelievers) will be put in Hell forever. This was a notable admission because, previously, Lizzie (and Hatun Tash) had been attacking Islam for the belief that unbelievers go to Hell. <br />
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This video highlights this inconsistency on their part. Like I say, if this was deliberate, it means Lizzie and Hatun were sinning when attacking Islam as they were being intellectually dishonest. <br />
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If it was not deliberate, then it begs the question, why are they preaching Christianity and what did Jay Smith, St Nicholas Church, CJ Davis and Beth Grove teach them if they did not know this about their own faith a few months ago?<br />
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<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" mozallowfullscreen="" src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/248504495" webkitallowfullscreen="" width="640"></iframe>
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<a href="https://vimeo.com/248504495">St Nicholas Church Hypocrisy On Hell</a> <br />
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This video has also <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3VNmi__-ok" target="_blank">been uploaded here</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/jay-smith-is-confident-hes-going-to.html">Jay Smith Is Confident He's Going to Paradise!</a> Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-28331262761082971802017-12-22T10:38:00.002-08:002017-12-22T10:38:22.773-08:00Jay Smith Is Confident He's Going to Paradise!Christians like Jay Smith make claims that they are confident they will go to heaven. This slogan is not even true according to their own religious traditions. <br /><br />Hashim goes on to tackle this idea amongst certain Christians that they will certainly go to Heaven. The bulk of this is captured in this video. I would recommend you watch this short video and learn that in reality, Christians who have imbibed emotionalism, and strut about claiming they will certainly go to paradise. are not consistent with their texts. Hashim does a good job in bringing up important and relevant verses which are overlooked by this type of Christian in their dopamine fuelled proclamations.<br />
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This video is also <a href="https://vimeo.com/248500395" target="_blank">uploaded here</a><br />
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Verses discussed:<br />
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Matthew 7<br />
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’<br />
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1 John 3<br />
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.<br />
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Matt 25<br />
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’<br />
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’<br />
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.<br />
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Mark 3<br />
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html" style="color: #1b0431; text-decoration: underline;">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/karen-armstrong-early-gospel-authors.html">Karen Armstrong: Early Gospel Authors Did Not Believe Jesus Was God</a> Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-65334887411973723552017-12-22T09:06:00.000-08:002017-12-22T09:06:00.247-08:00Jay Smith, Did John Write Down What Jesus Said?Christian missionary Jay Smith claims John wrote down what Jesus said. I think the admission by Prof. Craig Evans in this video will help Jay to understand that scholars do not believe John's I AM sayings are historical.<br />
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This video can also be viewed <a href="https://vimeo.com/248489569" target="_blank">here</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/response-to-christian-blog-on-muslim.html">Response To A Christian Blog on Muslim Girls School in Stoke</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-polemicists-on-love-quran-332.html">Christian Polemicists on Love, Quran 3:32, John 3:16 and Romans 5:8</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/grooming-crimes-which-tommy-robinson.html">Grooming Crimes Which Tommy Robinson and Britain First Will Not Publicise As Much</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/a-review-of-sara-khans-battle-for.html">A Review of Sara Khan's The Battle For British Islam</a> Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-39277389817715223402017-12-21T11:27:00.001-08:002017-12-21T11:58:31.770-08:00Response To A Christian Blog on Muslim Girls School in StokeArchbishop Cranmer (blog) got my goat with the following comments in his piece entitled ‘A school for Muslim girls that forbids them the use of toilet paper ‘for cultural reasons’?’:<br />
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<em>I understand Stoke-on-Trent is shortlisted to be named a ‘City of Culture’. Ah, but which culture? It is disconcerting to hear of a school for Muslim girls that forbids them the use of toilet paper ‘for cultural reasons’. Soap, too, is off the menu, so the poor dears have to ablute the Karachi way. One wonders if the school provides proper toilets, or simply issues the girls with a trowel and points them towards the shrubbery? So much for all cultures being equal, for indeed some are more equal than others. At least inspectors have deemed the school to be ‘inadequate’, which should send leftists spinning and surely counts as a ‘hate-crime’.</em><br />
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I wonder if Archbishop Cranmer wrote this whilst on the toilet. I understand he’s using a bit of hyperbole, what is it with <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnBm8h-5B0Y">irate Christians and hyperbole</a>?<br />
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Likewise with one of the rabble-rousers in evangelicalism in the West, not many can do ‘hyperbole’ like Jay Smith.<br />
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One man’s hyperbole is another man’s bowel movement, right Archbishop Cranmer?<br />
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1. The school in question did not “forbid” the girls from using loo roll. <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-42223260">Toilet roll was available, but apparently not put out.</a><br />
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I suspect it’s just a massive oversight and/or a bit of a blunder by the school. I mean, so what if your culture is to wash rather than wipe. Folks who wash rather than wipe also use toilet paper in that process too. It’s a bit foolish to leave toilets without toilet paper even if you have washing facilities. I’ve noticed this in some mosques too — I’ve always suspected, here comes the cynic in me, it was an effort to save money or a subtle way of saying do your business at home rather than here.<br />
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2. Calm yourself down Archbishop Cranmer, it’s a school of 34 pupils. It’s hardly representing the overall culture of Stoke on Trent never mind supplanting the current culture. Why are traditionalists at the CofE so bitter? Christianity and “Christian culture” (whatever that is, surely not toilet paper only!) is not being ring fenced any longer thus Archbishop Cranmer, Christian Concern, Gavin Ashenden are all in a bit of a tiff.<br />
This seems to be a regular theme amongst this type of CofE-er. Zoning in on some odd story about Muslims or some other minority culture and making a big hoo-ha about it. Why can’t they shake off that chip on their shoulders?<br />
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3. Archbishop talks about soap being off the menu. Hmmm, I don’t think the head teacher said that was due to cultural reasons. Again, I’d imagine it’s just a case of lack of thought if the school had no saop dispensers in the toilets — either that or it was a cost-saving tactic.<br />
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In fact, Muslims played a vital role in the development of soap and shampoo was introduced to Britain by….a Muslim!<br />
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Washing and bathing are religious requirements for Muslims, which is perhaps why they perfected the recipe for soap which we still use today. The ancient Egyptians had soap of a kind, as did the Romans who used it more as a pomade. But it was the Arabs who combined vegetable oils with sodium hydroxide and aromatics such as thyme oil. One of the Crusaders’ most striking characteristics, to Arab nostrils, was that they did not wash. Shampoo was introduced to England by a Muslim who opened Mahomed’s Indian Vapour Baths on Brighton seafront in 1759 and was appointed Shampooing Surgeon to Kings George IV and William IV. <a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-6106905.html">[Source]</a><br />
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The absent-mindedness or the scrimping of the school is hardly to be attributed to their culture. That would be like attributing gay marriage, divorce, sex before marriage or Atheism to Church of Englan culture. Archbishop Cranmer, what say ye?<br />
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4. On a personal note, Archbishop Cranmer may want to hit up the head teacher and have a look at his notes on toilet etiquette — it could help him to avoid a fissure or two. As a CofE-er, I’m certain he’s an expert on fissures of a different kind given the CofE are in constant disunity (the mind boggles further if they seriously consider themselves to be the “body of Christ”). Get some lessons on cleaning your derriere as your chosen cultural method is a mover but not exactly a shaker:<br />
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“Toilet paper moves s***, but it doesn’t remove it.”<br />
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“Aggressive wiping can cause painful anal fissures which can take eight to 12 weeks to heal and even haemorrhoids.” <a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/toilet-paper-stop-use-wet-wipes-doctor-health-problems-bidets-a8028906.html">[Source]</a><br />
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5. Archbishop Cranmer asks which culture when talking about Stoke on Trent’s now failed bid for City of Culture status. I guess as a CofE-er he’s used to asking such a question given that the Church worships an Asian man (Jesus), believes in a doctrine from Greek philosophy (Trinity) and relies on manuscripts found in rubbish heaps amongst other places in North Africa to help reconstruct its book (the Bible) by the academy which is largely a Western enterprise. Indeed, Archbishop Cranmer, which culture?<br />
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Dr Adrian Hilton, do us a favour mate, edit some of this into Mrs Proudie’s article. Consider my thoughts the water to wash away the hyperbole. Don’t forget to wipe!<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/christian-polemicists-on-love-quran-332.html">Christian Polemicists on Love, Quran 3:32, John 3:16 and Romans 5:8</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/grooming-crimes-which-tommy-robinson.html">Grooming Crimes Which Tommy Robinson and Britain First Will Not Publicise As Much</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/queen-james-bible-and-islamophobes.html">Queen James Bible and the Islamophobes</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html" target="_blank">Christians having dreams and converting to Islam</a></span></strong></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-58001905377720463162017-12-07T14:42:00.000-08:002017-12-07T14:42:00.386-08:00Christian Polemicists on Love, Quran 3:32, John 3:16 and Romans 5:8It’s commonplace for Christians to exaggerate the Christian view of love. For the most part this is probably just due to an ignorance on their part and a Westernised liberal mindset rather than the product of some sort of wilful effort to misinform. This is why you get Westernised “Christian” evangelical organisations making such comments on social media:<br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><em>Thank God for christianity. For a God that loves us even while we were yet sinners, For a God that loves us enough to come down to earth, for a God that just doesn't just create but wants relationship with his Children. It sometimes takes learning about a religion such as Islam to appreciate what we have in Christ. Allah HATES DISBELIEVERS </em></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/surah?source=feed_text&story_id=882993738536405"><span style="color: #660000;"><em>#Surah</em></span></a><span style="color: #660000;"><em> 3:32 # John3:16#Romans 5:8 </em></span><span style="color: black;">[<a href="https://medium.com/search?q=dcci%20ministries" target="_blank">DCCI Ministries</a> via FB]</span><br />
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RC Sproul says: I think there are few things more dangerous than preachers out there preaching that God loves everyone unconditionally<br />
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<strong>Do Christians really believe God loves everyone unconditionally? No.</strong><br />
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Here are three points to think about in this regard.<br />
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1. The Bible teaches that God HATES sinners/wrongdoers (sinners would include unbelievers, right?)<br />
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<span style="color: #660000;"><em>4 For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness; with you, <strong>evil people are not welcome</strong>.<br /> 5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence.<strong>You <u>hate all who do wrong</u></strong></em> Psalm 5:4-6</span><br />
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Pslam 11:5 is in a similar vein. Additionally, Christians believe God is angry with the wicked (I assume this includes unbelievers)<br />
<em><span style="color: #660000;"><br />11 God judgeth the righteous, <u>and God is angry with the wicked every day</u>.</span></em> [Psalm 7:11]<br />
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2. Common sense. Christians believe those who do not accept Jesus will be in eternal damnation (Hell) for eternity. Can you seriously tell me you believe God and Jesus love these people? <br />
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3. Paul of Tarsus curses anybody who does not preach his version of Jesus. Paul seems to hate these people. If you believe Paul in Galatians is inspired by God then how can you believe God curses those who he loves? Here’s Paul of Tarsus in his own words Galatians 1:<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you,let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!</span></em><br />
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<strong>Love of God in Christian and Muslim views</strong><br />
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God, according to Muslim and Christian beliefs, has a beneficient, providential and benevolent love for everyone regardless of belief/disbelief. The rain falls on the just as well as the unjust. Both the wicked and the righteous have oxygen to breath and both groups receive wealth, health etc..<br />
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Likewise, both groups believe God loves the world so much so that He gives a salvific message and thus humans have the potential to be saved.<br />
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The love God has for the redeemed (Love of complacency) is not extended to the unbelievers according to Christian tradition. Likewise, love of complacency (or love conditional love) is not extended to disbelievers according to the Islamic tradition either.<br />
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God abhors the wicked according to the Bible. In Christianity God sends the sinner to Hell, not the sin. Clearly, for the Christian preacher, it would be contradictory to the Bible to say God loves unbelievers the same way he loves the “saved” – Christians will believe God abhors those who he sends to Hell. Christians believe TCVO Jesus will send Muslims, Sikhs, Atheists and Unitarian Christians to Hell. To say TCVO Jesus loves all these “unbelieving” groups would be difficult to reconcile with the aforementioned.<br />
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Christian groups who are more into simplistic slogans like the one we are responding to are being a hindrance to a deeper and more healthy understanding of religious traditions.<br />
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<strong>Quran 3:32, Romans 1:18 and sound reasoning</strong><br />
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The Christian group cite this Verse in their social media post (above) yet they have not applied thought to the context, The Verse is talking about those who reject God’s message and do not obey God. Obviously these people ultimately reject God’s love, Quran 3:31-32:<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;"> Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."<br /> <br />Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.</span></em><br />
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Christians believe the same thing with respect to their tradition. Those who reject the message of God, effectively reject God and are ultimately cut off from the love of God. This has been outlined in the Bible verses we have presented previously. To re-emphasise this we can additionally cite Romans 1:18 which is essentially teaching the same thing as Quran 3:32 with respect to the Christian tradition<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness</span></em> [Romans 1:18]<br />
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Again, even if you did not have access to the Bible, the fair-minded Christian would conclude the same thing as Quran 3:32 with respect to Christianity by thinking about the doctrine of hell. Why else do Christians believe disbelievers go to hell if it is not for the rejection of God and ultimately the rejection of God’s love?<br />
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Christians who peddle simplistic and shallow polemics dishonour their Church traditions.<br />
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RC Sproul in his criticism of Christians who preach unconditional love explains the motivation behind their thinking:<em> “We want to so much win people to Christ that we’ll do everything we can to hide from them the wrath of God”</em><br />
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Mark Driscoll says the Bible says, on multiple occasions, that God hates those who are sinners. He says,<em> all the ways the Bible speaks about the wrath of God are greater than the number of times the Bible speaks of the love of God.</em><br />
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Driscoll’s candid admission explains why folks at small Westernised evangelical outfits preach the way they do. It’s because their churches are afraid of speaking about the wrath of God for the fear of losing congregants, potential new members and donations. They are essentially being told what they want to hear. Driscoll sums this attitude up by mentioning the Old Testament:<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?</span></em> Jeremiah 5:31<br />
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Theologian John McArthur says “preaching that God loves you unconditionally is the wrong message. The sinner needs to be terrified about his condition”.<br />
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<strong>Jesus and the Sword</strong><br />
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Tooting’s St Nicholas Church’s Elizabeth Schofield<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzla2RJDobU" target="_blank"> has taken to telling Muslims that Jesus will come for them with a sword if they don’t worship him (a man!).</a> How can you truly believes Jesus loves everyone when you believe he will come back with a sword for those who do not want to worship Jesus ( man!) and then ultimately put them in Hell for eternity? <br />
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In addition, CJ Davis and St Nicholas Church in Tooting, on paper, accept the Thirty Nine articles derived from Thomas Cranmer’s Forty Two Articles which not only talk about hell but also teach that God chose the believers (saved ones) before time (predestination). For academic honesty, this does not necessarily mean Calvinism’s Unconditional Election but it does seem to leave the door open for that theology to be a valid theological view within the CoE paradigm. How do St Nicholas Church folks who endorse or are part of DCCI Ministries parse this part of their teaching as well as the belief that Jesus will come back in condemnatory judgement for the unbelievers - do they think these views are consistent with the idea expressed in the social media post that Jesus loves unbelievers?<br />
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<strong>John 3:16 and Romans 5:8 and Islam’s equivalent</strong><br />
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For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.[John 3:16]<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.</span></em> [Romans 5:8]<br />
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These verses are not about universal salvation, they simply express the idea that God offered mankind a way for salvation. Christians do not believe everyone will have eternal life, Christians (with a focus o Arminianism) believe God has offered mankind a route to salvation and it is ultimately down to people to decide to accept this offer of salvation (i.e. via the killing of Jesus for their sins).<br />
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Islam has the same general teaching in that God (Allah) offers a route to salvation to mankind. He sent messengers to every nation so people can know God personally, worship Him and obey Him in a relation of love with Allah. In Islam as well as Judaism, God is perfectly forgiving so does not need to have somebody or Himself killed in order to forgive us. The final message and route for salvation God (Allah) gives to humankind is Islam – those who accept the message to submit their will to God will be those who are saved. Interestingly, this message of submitting to God’s will seems to be presented in a purported quote of Jesus in Mark 3:35 too<br />
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<em><span style="color: #660000;">35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”</span></em><br />
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Once we scrape away the emotional harrumphs and fluff certain, unhelpful, Christians add to proceedings we see very much that in Islam, God loves the world enough to offer mankind a way to Him. Likewise, the same is taught with respect to the Christian tradition in John 3:16.<br />
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<strong>Summary</strong><br />
Let’s call for obscurantist Christians to be more fair-minded and stop clouding matters with unhelpful emotional accretions (fluff).<br />
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Now you know all this, you (the truth-seeker) can start to look deeply into both religions and decide which one carries more truth.<br />
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I think it’s counterproductive for anybody who believes in Heaven and Hell to state God loves everyone (unconditionally) and condemn teachings of other faiths which teach the view that is compatible with common reasoning, that God does not love unbelievers (why else would He put them in hell for eternity?).<br />
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Do you really think TCVO Jesus loved those he ordered to be killed in 1 Samuel 15:3? <br />
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Come on DCCI and Tooting’s St Nicholas Church folks, you’re looking contradictory. My advice to DCCI Ministries, move beyond shallow and inconsistent polemics – you do not honour Paul of Tarsus, your churches or even sound reason. You simply serve to get people’s backs up and ultimately become an obstacle to sound dialogue between Christians and Muslims<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/advice-for-muslims-on-dealing-with.html">Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/a-difficulty-on-christian-idea-of.html">A Difficulty On the Christian Idea of Salvation and Forgiveness</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/how-jay-smith-nabeel-qureshi-sam.html">How Jay Smith, Nabeel Qureshi, Sam Shamoun and David Wood Contribute to the Apostasy of Christians</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/geza-vermes-on-how-jesus-would-have.html">Geza Vermes on How Jesus Would Have Reacted to Trinitarian Christians</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/is-limited-atonement-doctrine-taught.html">Is Limited Atonement Doctrine Taught Clearer than the Trinity Doctrine in the New Testament?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/for-christians-who-say-allah-is.html">For Christians who say Allah is a Deceiver- a Message from James White</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/old-testament-or-matthean-prophecies.html">Old Testament or Matthean Prophecies?</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/oldest-british-convert-to-islam-br.html">Oldest British Convert to Islam, Br Mohamed Keith-Kinglsey Cunliffe?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/faith-change-islam-rapidly-grows-as.html">Faith Change: Islam rapidly grows as Christianity declines in UK </a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/slovakians-converting-to-islam.html">Slovakians converting to Islam</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/did-peter-believe-in-trinity.html">Did Peter Believe in the Trinity?</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/notes-from-sean-finnegans-interview.html">Notes from Sean Finnegan's interview with Patrick Navas: Is the Trinity Biblical</a> <b></b><i></i><u></u><sub></sub><sup></sup><strike></strike><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br />
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<a href="http://www.whyislam.org/" target="_blank">Why Islam</a></div>
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<div style="text-align: left;">
<span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html" target="_blank">Christians having dreams and converting to Islam</a></span></strong></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-986722061743434462017-11-27T15:17:00.002-08:002017-11-27T15:17:55.307-08:00Queen James Bible and the Islamophobes<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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The "Queen James Bible". The evangelical Christian right are a puzzling bunch. I was reading one of their articles and the Christian guy was overplaying the "influence of Islam" in the UK. One of his examples was Debenhams selling Muslim clothes or whatever (guess he's never heard of niche economics). These folks are bleating on about Muslims because in reality it's easy. Everybody knows these evangelical girls and guys aren't taken seriously by the vast majority of the population so they focus on bullying Muslims. They don't seem to have the confidence to even talk to (never mind talk down to/bully/harass) anybody else in the wider population - especially the LGBT and secularist movement. I wonder if any of those hounding Muslims in the UK have ever raised their voice about the Queen James Bible. LGBTQ peeps must be laughing behind the scenes whilst evangelical "Christians" are talking about kicking Muslims out of Europe, yelling at them in parks, harassing them online and preaching outside their mosques. Truly embarrassing. But hey, they have some Muslims to bash to make themselves feel important and powerful. <br />
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<em>The Queen James Bible (QJV), also called the “Gay Bible,” is an edit of the biblical text done in the name of preventing “homophobic interpretations.” To accomplish this goal, the publishers printed a Bible in which all negative references to homosexuality have been removed. The Queen James Bible was published in 2012 and is based on the 1769 edition of the King James Bible.<br /><br />The publishers of the Queen James Bible chose the name “Queen James” as an obvious take-off on the “King James” Version, as the Authorized Version of 1611 is commonly called. The publishers of the Gay Bible also claim that King James was bisexual, so their choice of title capitalizes on the slang meaning of the term queen.<br /><br />The editors of the Queen James Bible, who chose to be anonymous, claim that there was no reference to homosexuality in any Bible translation prior to the 1946 Revised Standard Version. Then, they assert, “anti-LGBT Bible interpretations” arose, based on a faulty translation in the RSV of eight verses.<br /><br />The unidentified “scholars”—their scholastic credentials are unknown—who produced the Queen James Bible suggest that all Bible translations of these eight verses are wrong and that they are the only ones who have got it right. Below are the eight verses.</em> [GotQuestions]<br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/synoptic-gospels-and-idea-of-pre.html">Synoptic Gospels and the Idea of a Pre-Existant Jesus?</a> <br /><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/christian-inconsistency-around.html">Christian Inconsistency Around Arguments for Prophet Muhammad in the Bible</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/paula-fredriksen-paul-was-not.html">Paula Fredriksen: Paul was NOT a Trinitarian</a> </div>
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/tovia-singer-does-new-testament-teach.html">Tovia Singer: Does the New Testament Teach Jesus is God?</a> <br /><br />
<div style="text-align: left;">
<span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html" target="_blank">Christians having dreams and converting to Islam</a></span></strong></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span class="userContent" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}"><span class="text_exposed_show"><strong><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/terrorism-is-hirabah-in-sharia-law-by.html" target="_blank">Sharia Law against terrorism</a></span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://www.thedeenshow.com/" target="_blank">Learn about Islam</a><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="color: #660000;"><span style="color: black;"><br /><strong></strong><br /><strong>Email:</strong> <a href="https://www.blogger.com/null">yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></span></span></div>
Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-19416580189452581172017-11-27T14:08:00.000-08:002017-11-27T14:08:48.763-08:00Grooming Crimes Which Tommy Robinson and Britain First Will Not Publicise As MuchThree men from the West Midlands have been convicted after they held a schoolgirl captive and forced her in to prostitution.<br />
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Jake Cairns, Brandon Sharples and Jack McInally plied the 14-year-old with drugs and held her at an address for five days.<br />
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<a href="http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/sick-trio-kept-schoolgirl-14-13909373">http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/sick-trio-kept-schoolgirl-14-13909373</a><br />
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<a href="http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/why-do-britain-first-forget-about-ira.html">Why Do Britain First Forget About The IRA When Talking To Muslims?</a> Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-29430436173077233262017-11-27T11:29:00.000-08:002017-11-27T11:29:04.143-08:00WHAT IS THE TRUE LESSON FROM THE FALL OF ADAM AND EVE - AQIL ONQUE<br />
We have been taught from the beginning that it is because of the original sin of Adam and Eve that human beings have been sent to the Earth from the Paradise as a punishment. Prior to this epic fall, we were taught to believe that God, as the initial plan, made man and woman to dwell in Paradise forever. But there are some serious, and I mean serious problems with this notion! And these problems arise from many text of the bible itself. <br />
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Now, these problems seems to be exclusively problems for the Christian, since it is this community that advocates and has enshrined their doctrine of salvation around this original sin and fall of Adam and Eve. If one removes the doctrine of original sin and the redemption of a God/Man self sacrifice, or nicely put, vicarious atonement for salvation and re-entry back into Paradise, then the fall of Adam does not have the same significance and the dwelling on the earth would not be seen as such a punishment. Rather another more important meaning comes from the lesson of Adam and Eve and their experience in the Paradise, as we will see, and the fact of their temporary stay there becomes evident that it was from the Divine intent from the beginning. <br />
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Let us now look at some of these textual proofs that crushes the later concocted doctrine of the Christians in relation to the earliest scriptures. It, should be noted here also, that the initial recipients of the scriptures under discussion, respectively, the Jewish community, does not at all share in the same doctrine or view about this event as the Christians. Thus, for thousands of years, there existed a Jewish community, reading and studying their respective scriptures with a completely foreign understanding than what was then introduced by a new group thousands of years later. This is very odd, especially given the fact that the Christians adopted wholesale the belief previous scriptures, while at the same time, introducing a completely unrelated and foreign doctrine while using the same scriptures to do so? Something to truly consider.<br />
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Was Adam and Eve meant to live forever in the paradise? This question is twofold, on the one hand, we have to examine, was it the intent for Adam and Eve to live forever? After that, were they meant to live forever in the Paradise? I believe the bible is clear, I don’t mean Christian doctrine, but the bible, it is clear that the answer to both of these questions are a surprisingly, but an emphatic NO!<br />
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Let us see. We read in Genesis 2:7-9 (7 Then the Lord God formed a man[<a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A7-9&version=NIV#fen-NIV-38a">a</a>] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.) And also we read just a chapter later, Genesis 3:22-24 (22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[<a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3%3A22-24&version=NIV#fen-NIV-80a">a</a>] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.)<br />
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So, from these verses, it is quite clear that man was never endowed with eternal life from the beginning! The temporal reality of Man, was and is part and parcel of who he is, as is the case with this current world. The idea that Man was to live forever in the beginning is just not supported by any biblical proof!<br />
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So, where does such an idea come from to justify the Christian doctrine? As, so often is the case, it is taken from misconstrued and misunderstood verses from the bible, then fostered into a theology and doctrine to suit the Christian author of it. We read, Genesis 3:3-5 (3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”)<br />
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Here we see that, the idea of death is directly connected to eating of the forbidden tree. But, was this implying a physical death? Clearly not! For even the devil realized this and stated what the real case was. Furthermore, Adam and Eve did eat from the tree and live a long time after before dying. So, it’s obvious that death here was not implying anything physical. This is again supported by the verses about the tree of life. What purpose would a tree of life serve if they were endowed with eternal life from the beginning? The tree of good and evil existed showing that they were ignorant. Thus, eating from it revealed what they formerly had no knowledge of. But what possibly could a tree of life do to people who were already eternal? Hence, we must conclude that the meaning of death here is not physical, but spiritual. This is made wonderfully clear elsewhere in the bible, as we read in <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+18%3A20-23&version=NIV">Ezekiel 18</a>:20-2<br />
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20 <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+18%3A20-23&version=NIV">The one who sins is the one who will</a> die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. 21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? <br />
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Does this help us understand this matter in full now? Certainly in these verses, the death and life referred to is not physical, just as the death referred to in Genesis when describing the event of the garden was not physical<br />
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Now, let’s complete this point by examining the second part of this question, which is was Adam and Eve meant to live in Paradise forever (in the beginning)?<br />
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Given that we have proven the fact that Adam and Eve were never meant to live forever, as asked in the first part of this question, the second part is obvious. It’s no! But, to leave no room any further misunderstanding on this matter, let us, bring some verses from the bible to make this ever so clear. We read in <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A26&version=KJV">Genesis 1</a>:26 (26 <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A26&version=KJV">And God said</a>, <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A26&version=KJV">Let us make man in our</a> image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.)<br />
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Now, who will argue that this verse is not crystal clear in declaring that Man was given authority of the EARTH? But, wait… how could that be if Man was in Paradise? Supposingly to live forever there. One might retort, well this was after the fall that he was given authority. WRONG!!! This verse is irrefutable in declaring that from the beginning Man was to be the ruler and authority of the Earth. This verse states Man’s authority on Earth, long before his fall. Moreover, what would be the purpose of the Earth and all of these species and delights on it if Man, initially was never intended to be there? For certainly God knew that Man would need these things on Earth for his livelihood and gains. So, this also means that, of course God knew that Man would dwell on the Earth. Which means, that God knew that Man was never intended to be in that Paradise in the beginning, forever!<br />
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On this note before we conclude, can we also highlight the point in the midst of all of this, about the fact of God providing physical and sensual accommodations to Man from the very beginning, even in the Paradise? The Christians love to insult and verbally assault the Muslims and their beliefs about sensuality in Paradise. But yet, from the beginning, even in Paradise, we see that God had readily provided Adam with all amenities that one would have on the Earth, from food to drink to woman companionship. If the temporary Paradise is worthy enough to afford such amenities and delights to Man, then would it not be even more so for the everlasting, eternal Paradise? For the bible says <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A20&version=NIV">Genesis 2</a>:20-21 (20 <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A20&version=NIV">So the man gave names to all the</a> livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam[<a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A20&version=NIV#fen-NIV-51a">a</a>] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[<a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A20-21&version=NIV#fen-NIV-52b">b</a>] and then closed up the place with flesh.)<br />
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See how Man is provided with everything, and then one thing is missing… a “suitable helper”. What is a suitable helper, and a helper in what? If you ask any man to pick a suitable helper for himself in the field to toil in the earth and maintain it, I don’t think he will choose a woman. Honestly and practically speaking. I think he would choose a strong young man as a suitable helper. Did not God, according to Christian theology choose a Son, for Himself? Why did God not choose a wife or daughter to be part of the trinity instead of a son? But, if this suitable helper has other implications… then of course, a woman would be chosen. For a man can never replace a woman! The point here that shall not be lost is the fact that, all of this is provided in the Heaven, in the company of God! Yet, somehow, for it to be granted again, with unlimited restriction for eternity now becomes a problem for the Christians. Why such hypocrisy?<br />
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In closing, so, if Adam and Eve was never meant to live in Paradise in the beginning for eternity, then why did God put them there in the first place? Why not just put them on Earth from the start and let it all began there? What an awesome question! I wish I could get a Christian to answer that before this. And I myself, don’t have the answer to that from a Christian world view, but I certainly do from the Islamic world view. And here is where, Christianity dreadfully fails humanity. Instead of offering any lesson of hope in the story of Adam and Eve’s fall in the garden, it compounds this fall with the stigma of original sin cast upon all of Adam’s descendants and further compounds this idea with a sadistic drama of God, now needing to take on human form to perform a vicarious atonement for the sins of humanity through a self sacrifice in the scene of a crucifixion, in which God becomes a curse, that He Himself needs to slaughter, all for the purpose of being able to forgive man for his sins, due to the original sin of Adam and Eve, thousands of years prior. This, can not be from the ways of a Just and Loving and Forgiving God!<br />
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The lesson to be learned in the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden, is a beautiful lesson indeed. A lesson in which man learns of his status with God while in obedience to Him and in disobedience to Him. Man learns about his arch enemy and his cunning ways to ever bring man down. Man, learns of his earthly role and the responsibility he has been given therein and he is given hope, and a longing to once again return to that beautiful place of bliss and enjoy the delights that awaits him and most importantly, the eternal pleasure and company of God Almighty<br />
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We learn from the story of Adam and Eve, that when you are in obedience to God, then you enjoy the Divine pleasure and closeness, as we seen was the case before their mistake. But we also learn that when one disobeys God, then they lose such Divine pleasure and grow and become distant from God, as we seen after their mistake. Obedience brings life to the soul, joy, contentment and bliss, while disobedience brings spiritual death, anguish, emptiness and void of the soul and depression. However, the greatest lesson to be gained is to know, that even in such a state, one can reach out and return to God, and His pleasure and His closeness by sincerely repenting and seeking His Providential Forgiveness and Mercy. As we find the amazing passage in the Qur’an, 2:3<br />
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Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful<br />
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So, God, in His Ever Compassing ability to Forgive and bestow Mercy, exhibited such with Adam. But, what was these words, that Adam learned and used to implore his Gracious Lord for Pardon? We further read in the Qur’an 7:23<br />
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They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."<br />
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What beauty and encouragement to hope, to know that in a plight of struggle we fall, but know we can always turn back to our Lord who is waiting for us and ready to turn to us for Forgiveness. Unlike, the idea of being the bearer for the entire humanity being cursed with the stigma of sin because of you. And whatever did happen to Adam and Eve, according to the bible? Did God ever forgive them? Is there any clear verse, that God forgave them of their mistake? Or is it as legend has it? In truth, my friends, what way is better? The path and lessons learned from Islam, concluding in the guarantee of knowing that God is always there to turn to you and forgive you. Or the path and gloom offered by Christianity in that, we are all cursed and can only be redeemed by our Almighty God needing to become man, and curse and die for us, just to be able to say I forgive you? I think the way is clear. I offer you a passage from Psalms that all Christians should pay close heed to. <br />
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Psalm 51:16-17<br />
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16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. 17 My sacrifice, O God, is[<a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms+51%3A16-19&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14709a">a</a>] a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.<br />
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And I will close with two beautiful verses of the Qur’an <a href="http://legacy.quran.com/2/186">2:186</a><br />
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And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.<br />
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And to sufficiently close, <a href="http://legacy.quran.com/39/53">39:53</a><br />
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Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.<br />
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Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-248234931266550822.post-73722749947657315172017-11-19T09:21:00.001-08:002017-11-19T09:21:48.355-08:00Why Do Britain First Forget About The IRA When Talking To Muslims?Britain First's Christian Jayda Fransen deputy leader seems to forget about British history and the IRA in a conversation with a Muslim as she tries to minimise the number of non-Muslim terror attacks in the UK.<br />
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<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="275" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YhEU096JbNY?rel=0" width="460"></iframe><br />
This video is also <a href="https://vimeo.com/243526692" target="_blank">uploaded here</a><br />
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A timeline of IRA terror attacks on British soil can be found at <a href="https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-security-bombings/timeline-worst-ira-bomb-attacks-on-mainland-britain-idUKTRE74F31Q20110516" target="_blank">Reuters.</a> Here are some examples from that timeless:<br />
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February 1974 - Coach carrying soldiers and families in northern England is bombed by the Irish Republican Army (IRA). Twelve people killed, 14 hurt.<br />
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October-November 1974 - Wave of IRA bombs in British pubs kills 28 people and wounds more than 200.<br />
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July 1982 - Two IRA bomb attacks on soldiers in London’s royal parks kill 11 people and wound 50.<br />
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December 1983 - IRA bomb at Harrods department store kills six.<br />
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October 1984 - Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher’s cabinet narrowly escapes IRA bomb that kills five people at Brighton hotel during Conservative Party’s annual conference.<br />
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May 1990 - One soldier is killed and another wounded by car bomb in Wembley.<br />
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June 1990 - Soldier is shot dead at train station in Lichfield.<br />
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April 1993 - IRA truck bomb devastates Bishopsgate area of London’s financial district, killing one and wounding 44.<br />
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Yahya Snowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.com