Sadly, our Christian friends are discovering, due to the dishonesty of the Gospel writers/Bible scribes, they have been misled – that’s to say they are realising they have been conned. However, Christian forgery (deception) has been so rampant that it appears that zealous Trinitarian Christians even tampered with the work of the Jewish historian Josephus in order to work their Trinitarian Christian agendas.
Before discussing the possible deceptive Christian alterations of Josephus’ work let’s discuss another problematic account within the Gospels – Matthew 2:16:
When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [NIV, Matthew 2:16]
Matthew 2:16 depicts Herod as murdering all the young male children in Bethlehem. You would expect this act to have been chronicled by Josephus.
Yet, significantly, the massacre of Bethlehem’s young boys which is mentioned in Matthew finds no place even in the bloody history of Herod that Josephus recorded! Certainly such an event had it really happened, would have been mentioned in a historical record that narrates, amongst other details of the history of Herod, his brutal actions. Again, the conclusion must be that the massacre that Matthew details has no place in history. It should be stressed here, however, that this is not a form of negative evidence, for Josephus did record a detailed history of Herod in which the alleged massacre does not figure at all. [1]
Josephus chose not to record it?
Our Christian apologist friends may claim Josephus deliberately chose not to record “the massacre” as Josephus disagreed with the theological conclusion of Herod. However, this style of argumentation is inconsistent as Josephus alleged accounts of Jesus are indeed supportive of Christian theology.
The account in the Jewish War calls Isa [Jesus] a “miracle-worker”, attributing to him various miraculous acts, and goes as far as suggesting that “man” might not be the right word to describe him (Josephus, JW:398-400)!
Josephus also wrote Isa [Jesus] was raised from the dead the third day after his crucifixion. All these claims are mentioned more briefly in another of Josephus’ books, Jewish Antiquities, in which the Jewish writer goes that step further and claims that Isa was al-Masih [Messiah] (Josephus, JA, XVII: 63-64)! [1]
What didn’t the Christians forge?
It appears early Trinitarian Christians were not only busying themselves in adding forgeries to the Bible but were also tampering with the work of Josephus:
Critics have thrown doubts on the authenticity of Josephus’ supposed accounts of Isa [Jesus] which sounded too Christian to have been written by the Jewish historian. Other scholars, on the other hand, accept the genuineness of those accounts arguing that they contain points that cannot be reconciled with Christian tradition and they do not reflect a writer with a Christian faith but rather depict him as a doubting onlooker (Williamson, 1974: 396-397).
However, critics have raised a number of strong points against the authenticity of the controversial passages. Concerning the account in the Jewish War, the main argument of critics is that the piece about Isa [Jesus] is found in the Slavonic version of Josephus’ book but not in the Greek version. The principle arguments against the genuineness of the account in the Jewish Antiqiuities are as follows:
(i) The Jewish Josephus could not have described Isa [Jesus] as al-Masih [Messiah]
(ii) While the bishop and historian Eusebius of Caesarea (d. ca. 340 CE) mentions the controversial passage, the Greek theologian Origen (ca. 185-254 CE) had expressly stated that Josephus did not believe Isa [Jesus] to be al-Masih; and finally
(iii) The suspicious passage breaks continuity of Josephus’ description of a series of riots (Feldman, 1965:49)
Most scholars do not accept the authenticity of the two accounts in Josephus about Isa [Jesus]. In all probability, these references to Isa [Jesus] are inauthentic and must have been forged by Christians, but this is not relevant to our present discussion. [1]
Tough question for our Christian friends…
Whether the passages about Isa in Josephus’ works are genuine or not they still raise the following significant question: Why would the writer of those two accounts fail to make any reference to the alleged killing of the young boys that was intended to kill boy Isa? The answer cannot be anything other than that writer had no knowledge of the alleged massacre.
[1] History Testifies to the Infallibility of the Quran – early History of the Children of Israel – Dr Louay Fatoohi and Prof. Shetha Al-Dargazeli, Adam Publishers and Distributers, 1999, p 203-205
Further reading:
Sexism: A reason to the change the Bible?
Numbers and the Bible do collide on more than one occasion
Discover Islam
why do muslims always cite the apocrypha in argues?
ReplyDeleteGOJRA, Pakistan (Reuters) - Christians in the small Pakistani town of Gojra are making low-key preparations for Easter this year.
ReplyDeleteResidents of the neighbourhood, known as Christian Colony, in the town in Punjab province, are haunted by memories of a 2009 attack by a Muslim mob in which seven members of a family were killed and dozens of houses torched.
A few days before Easter, which Christians believe marks the resurrection of Jesus Christ three days after his crucifixion, bare-foot children played cricket in the town's dusty alleys while some men chatted on a bench under a tree.
"If we celebrate it with a fanfare, we fear somebody might get annoyed and attack us," said Khalid Anjum, 45, the owner of a small snooker hall.
The only sign of the approach of Easter was a few young men rehearsing hymns in St. Mary's Catholic Church....
The independent Human Rights Commission said at least 100 people from minority communities were killed in 2010. The bloodiest attack was on Ahmadis, a sect that mainstream Muslims consider heretical, when 86 people were killed.
This year, the liberal Muslim governor of Punjab province, Salman Taseer, and Christian Minorities Minister Shahbaz Bhatti, were killed in separate shootings for speaking out against a blasphemy law aimed at defending Islam.
Under the law, anyone who speaks ill of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad commits a crime and faces the death penalty but human rights activists say the law's vague wording has led to its misuse, often against members of minority religions.
Why would Josephus report on the murder of perhaps a couple dozen newborn boys in a world where the major method of birth control was the exposure of infants??
ReplyDeletepeace
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWelcome back Yahya, I swear if you didn't post by tonight, I was going to call the police in London to do a wellness check on you.
ReplyDeleteThis has to be one of the worst blog posts you have made, I say one of, because you have made so many bad ones. And by many I mean all that I have read.
I will only repeat Fifth's question.
WHY WOULD THIS EVEN BE NOTICED?
Take into account the size and population of Bethlehem, as well as it's importance in first century Judea. Even today it has a population under 30 thousand.
How many children do you think would of been killed?
Tell me what would you say if I found multiple contempory historians during the Korean War, that did not record, report or even know about the "NO GUN RI" massacre. So by your illogic that means the "NO GUN RI" massacre ever happened, RIGHT?
Second, you seem to think Josephus is a credible historian, now although scholars believe some of the statements about Jesus are later embellishments.
Even the most rabid Christ hater, like John Dominick Crossen, and Bart Ehrman agree that Josephus mention that Christ was crucified under Pontious Piolate, is his orignal report.
So do you believe Josephus when he rocords Christ was crucified?
Finally you accuse Christians of "tampering and forging" well if Christians were tampering and forging Josephus then why didn't they forge the "Slaughter of the Innocence". Why didn't they have Josephus record that Herod had the first born killed?
Your accusation fails on every level.
Also your little jab did not go un noticed. To bad your Islamic History does not have the solid backing of History and Science that the bible does.
As far as the Math, not my math, never claimed it was so if you have a problem with it then take it up with the person who took the time to go over the numbers.
Well good to have you back. Man those most of been some serious tough jinns you have been battling the last few weeks, to keep you from posting this nonsense.
RRadical moderate, I actually feel bad for you. I used to think you were just an annoying troll, now I realize you are just a disrespectful human with nothing better to do with your time. Instead of internet bullying mr snow I recommend you go find some friends, or a girl, or something, anything for God's sake.
ReplyDeleteWith all sincerity, mike
P.s. If you are sincere, then you should ask yourself" what would jesus do?" My guess is that it wouldn't be doing what you do with your time nor would it be being a disrespectful internet bully.
@FifthMonarchyMan
ReplyDeleteYou asked: Why would Josephus report on the murder of perhaps a couple dozen newborn boys in a world where the major method of birth control was the exposure of infants??
It is a good question. The answer is found within the blog post:
It should be stressed here, however, that this is not a form of negative evidence, for Josephus did record a detailed history of Herod in which the alleged massacre does not figure at all.
So, Josephus, having recorded details of Herod's bloody history would have been expected to have recorded the killing of all these innocent children. I'd imagine there were more than a few dozen male children under the age of 2 in Bethlehem.
The real question is WHY did Josephus not record such an "event"? If you combine it with the other anonymous Gospel writers not recording such an "event" you end up looking at the account by the anonymous author of the "Gospel of Matthew" with even more uncertainty - despite uncertainty being the general looking glass which one uses to look at the New Testament due to the nature of the documents and the material within.
It is an interesting question, well worth a blog post.
Sadly, this is lost on the zealot (RadicalModerate)
@RadicalModerate
See above.
As for the "crucifixion", Josephus mentioning an alleged crucifixion is hardly evidence for it as he would have got his "info" from an oral tradition which is an unverified one at that. The Gospel writers got their "info" from a similar oral tradition and look at the mess the Gosepls are in - they have 2 (yes, two) different family trees for Jesus amongst other problems!!!
So, Radical Moderate, please stop with the zeal and begin thinking critically...
As for you using lies (faulty maths from a Christian), you were busted and made some feeble excuse of wanting to "test" the audience.
How pathetic was that?
Your Christian fundamentalism spreads beyond lies as you have a desire to butcher Muslims in Iraq by using Iraq as a battle ground to war with Iran. That was captured on camera too..
I guess you were simply trying to "test" folk.
Think about the above
I bid you farewell.
Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another - Proverbs
The Radical Moderate:
ReplyDeleteYour next Argument would be, why in the world Josephus would bother recording hundred of saints raised from the dead walking around the streets of Jerusalem, after all, that happens all the time, as you said, the size of the population at that time is very limited, that would make the event go unnoticed. lool
Note: Paul says that man dies only ONCE, and then judgement. That proves beyond doubt that these walking dead are still around!! We are living in a kind of thriller world.
Oh man, why does this guy always roast Yahya so well and so easily?
ReplyDeleteA Muslim Dawagandist Refutes the Qur'an With the Help of Josephus
To the Anonymous who claims that Answering Muslims have refuted this article. I advise you to put your brain to the task and try to read AM's "refutation" again.
ReplyDeleteThe article begins by a long paragraph of non-scholastic mockery and slandering, then you come to the heart of the matter, the writer spends many lines, only to prove that Christians forged only part of Josephus' work, Not all.
Then the Christian apologetic, tries to make a parallel by pointing toward Sourah 4:157. Forgetting a small detail. In 4:157, the one who is speaking in the Quran from cover to cover, is God, not the Jews. When God speaks about what Jews have said, there is something called paraphrasing. When God reports what Jews have said, It doesn't necessarily mean that the Jews have said the exact statement word by word, see for example Surah 36:15.
The Christian is comparing apples and oranges. And more striking, there is not a word about why Josephus didn't mention the massacre of children.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@anonymous
ReplyDeleteStop your applauding for Anthony.
See what 1moremuslim wrote above and a brief analysis of Anthony's article here:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/04/more-immaturity-and-irrelevancy-from.html
Anthony achieved little with his post.
Peace
To Further refute Anthony's unthoughtful article, The same passage in the Quran calls those Jews Kaffirs. By definition a Kafir is one who KNOWINGLY reject the truth. It's not surprising that Some Jews truly believed Jesus to be the Messiah, but they rejected him, after all they have witnessed Jesus' miracles.
ReplyDeleteBut what is the similarity between, the confession made by Jews in their inner sectarian cirlcle( Which is historically true), and the writings of a Jewish historian meant to be a testimony for the world and generations to come? Anthony is comparing apples and oranges.
Yahya, who have removed the post of Anthony? He was asking why I don't give my response on AM blog!!!! I wanted to tell him a little detail:
ReplyDeleteI have posted the same response ( Copy paste) on Answering Islam's Blog in the same time as here. I am still waiting for my post to be approved by David Wood. On the other hand, my response was instantly published here. So Anthony, you are shooting yourself in the foot, or may I say, you shoot David Wood in his foot . loooooool . What a Clown you are Anthony, really amazing! All what I get in AM's blog is censorship, not refutations. looool
You must be under the ban then, 1moremuslim. I don't keep track of all the miscreants who get put on the ban list. But you can be sure I will include a response to your statements in the course of replying to Yahya. Regards,
ReplyDeleteAnthony,
ReplyDeleteOne efficient way to make irrefutable article, is to censor the refutation. loool. If you are truthful, you can copy and paste my reply to AM's page. But I doubt you would.
Your article is refuted 1400 years ago when the Quran was revealed. Now you say the Sarcasm is not plausible, good!!! I would say that these Jews realized that Jesus was the Messiah but they Rejected him? That may be not plausible, but one thing for sure; you cannot make a certain conclusion with non plausible arguments. So it remains just as just wishful thoughts.
Yesterday, Judge Mark Somers (the same judge whose blunder got Negeen convicted) put a price tag on Freedom of Speech. Pastor Terry Jones would have to post a "peace bond" ($100,000, according to Jones) in order to hold his planned protest against Sharia in Dearborn. When Jones refused to pay the bond, Judge Somers declared that Jones would have to face a jury. The jury decided that a protest outside America's largest mosque would be likely to "breach the peace." Thus, Jones is not allowed to hold a protest on public property outside the Islamic Center of North America.
ReplyDeleteJones has repeatedly stated that he will protest there regardless of the court's decision. Hence, if police make the mistake of enforcing the court's ruling, Pastor Jones and Pastor Wayne Sapp will be the fifth and sixth persons arrested in Dearborn and sent to jail for exercising their Constitutionally protected free speech rights in Dearborn.
I feel a video coming on . . .
***UPDATE*** Just when you thought Dearborn couldn't make a bigger mistake, Judge Somers ordered Jones and Sapp to be taken to jail (since they each refused to post a $1 bond).
***UPDATE*** Jones and Sapp each posted their $1 bond and were released.
To 1moreMuslim,
ReplyDeleteI think you probably consider the entire Testimonium Flavium to be false.Now Jesus was a major character.Or at least the Christian movement was and one would have expected a few lines by Josephus about the Christians and their beliefs.
Yet,accepting he never wrote the Testimonium it should not be surprising he never wrote about 12-20 children killed because Herod thought one of them was the Messiah who later became Jesus.
Josephus was indiferent to the Christians.
The Koran in 17:4-7 begins with"And we decreed to the children of Israel in the Book".
THE BOOK
That is the Bible.Later the Koran talks of the first destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem and then of the second destruction of the Temple("to harm your faces and to enter the TEMPLE as they entered it the FIRST TIME")
SO?
Shabir Ally and others say the gospels "according to scholars" put the gospel of Mark at 70-75 AD and Luke,Matt at 80-85.
So they say it was NOT written by contemporaries of Jesus but by those of the second generation.
But the Koran says the BIBLE has a prophecy about the destruction of the Temple,it is in Mark,Luke,Matthew,said by JESUS.
Luke stops at 61 AD and that would make Mark 10 years earlier,written at 51 AD.So they could have been written by contemporaries.
The Koran leaves that possibility,if you believe it is the truth.Unless Shabir wants to argue the Koran does NOT allow the Jesus prophecy to count as valid.
To Minoria and Fisher,
ReplyDeleteI don't know the books of Josephus and I have little interest about what is written there. I understand the Christians are clinging on anything available to show the validity of their claim. But let's do what Christians of old used to do; Read the new testament.
Fisher, Can you tell me, when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb, did she actually speak with Jesus or did she meet with a man who told her Jesus was not there, and that he departed ahead to meet the disciple?
Minoria, don't bother answer. I am fed up with your irrelevant 'scholastic' gynastics.
To Anthony Rogers:
ReplyDeleteIf you are planning to post a reply, please consider this 'fact' from the Bible:
1 kings 19
10 He replied, “I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”
What is so unbelievable about Jews trying, knowingly, to kill the Messiah?