David Wood of Answering Muslims receives another spanking for his latest bout of ignorance.
It turns out Deceptive Dave was blaming Muslims for the terrorist attack on Norway. Embarrassingly for Dave, it turned out this terrorist was a Christian AND has possible links to Dave’s website!
David Wood – Answering Oslo (Brilliant Video)
Christian missionary David Wood was quick to blame Islam and Muslims for the Norway attack, even before any details about the attacker had been released.
One Islamophobe (David Wood) influences another Islamophobe (Christian terrorist Anders Berhing Breivik)?
David Wood lies about Islam and Muslims in his anti-Islam propaganda, amongst his crazy deception; he has claimed Muslims are taught to torture/kill cross-wearing Christians, carry out honour killings and perform sexual ‘thighing’ on female children as well as his standard inflammatory ‘Muslims can rape/kill you’ rhetoric.
I wonder if Ander Behring Breivik was influenced by David Wood’s anti-Islam propaganda (lies)…
Here’s a summary in the way of an imaginary conversation
David: Ah a terrorist attack in Norway. Now I get another opportunity to wade through the misery of the victims of a crime and bash Moozlims. Those donations and page views will sky rocket. If I do this long enough, I may even get as famous as my hero Robert Spencer one day.
Muslim: David, you do know the terrorist attack on Norway is not linked to Muslims...
David: That’s takiyya. Just rumours. Wait for confirmation on Pamela Geller’s blog or Robert Spencer’s Jihad Watch as I get all my material from them. I bet my bottom dollar it was a Moozlim who murdered those innocent Norwegians. Stupid Moozlim. Whilst we wait I will plagiarize from Robert Spencer and google for some lurid lies about Islam to impress my Islamophobic Christian audience.
Muslim: Uh?
David: Woohoo, I just received $100 from Radical Moderate. That’s the 5th time he has donated this week!
Muslim: Dave, it turns out the terrorist was a Christian who is linked to your website.
David: Arrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Nabeel, get me some oxygen!!! Arghhhhh.
Muslim: You’ve gone all purple and you are foaming at the mouth. I think you need more than oxygen. I told you Islamophobia was bad for you. For all we know, your lies and inflammatory rhetoric helped shape Anders Berhing Breivik into the psychotic and murderous terrorist he is today. Let this be a lesson for others.
Related:
Pam Geller sweating over Christian terrorist Anders Behring Breivik
The David Wood section
Tough questions for Christian apologists – unanswered
Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com
David does not listen to other people. He deserved this.
ReplyDeleteWho gets to define the word "Christian"? The three main sources would be: (1) Christian scriptures, (2) the Christian community, or (3) non-Christians. If we go with (1), Breivik fails miserably. If we go with (2), Breivik will be utterly rejected. Hence, the only way Breivik could be considered a Christian is if certain non-Christians (e.g. Muslims and the media) decide to define the term "Christian" as "anyone who calls himself a Christian, regardless of whether his beliefs line up with Christianity." Is this the route we want to go
ReplyDeleteisn't it wierd how christians quickly defend their religion from breivik and get upset the 'media' labeled him as a christian, yet their entire day is dedicated to lying about islam?
ReplyDeleteGREAT dialogue btw lol that was quite funny.
Not convincing,because the way Breivik, in otherparts of his Manifesto,put himself in the group of agnostics-atheists.
ReplyDeleteThe case of Oriana Fallaci
She was an atheist Italian intellectual,famous for writing The Rage and the Pride.The she wrote The Force of Reason
She was an atheist,she herself said so,like in:
ReplyDelete"I am an atheist, and if an atheist and a pope think the same things, there must be something true. It's that simple! There must be some human truth here that is beyond religion."
In the Force of Reason she also calls herself a Christian.Here she uses the word exactly like Breivik,though not according to the meaning of Messianic/Christian in the NT.The historical Jesus put belief in God as a condition for being his disiciple,a Messianic
On page 185-189 of the Force of Reason:
ReplyDelete"I am a Christian because I like the discourse which stays at the roots of Christianity. Because it convinces me. It seduces me…I mean the discourse conceived by Jesus of Nazareth…which…concentrates on Man. Which admitting free-will, claiming Man’s conscience, makes us responsible for our actions. Masters of our destiny. I see a hymn to Reason, a revival of clear thinking…choice…the rediscovery of freedom. The redemption of liberty…an idea that nobody had ever had…The idea of a God that becomes Man…Who speaking of a Creator…introduces himself as his Son and explains that all men are brothers of his Son…capable of exercising their own divine essence…by preaching the Goodness which is the fruit of Reason, of Freedom, by spreading Love…Jesus…as a man…tackles the theme of secularism…he stops the cowards who are about to stone the adulteress…he blasts against slavery…he fights…he dies. Without dying because Life does not die. Life always resurrects, Life is eternal. And, together with the discourse on Reason, on Freedom, this is the point that mostly convinces me…the refusal of Death, the apotheosis of Life…its alternative is Nothingness. And let’s face it: such is the principle which leads and feeds our civilization."
@Ali
ReplyDeleteLol, yep even I find it worthy of a little chuckle.
But seriously, you point out some piercing irony which is lost on folk such ss Wood because they are blinded by their desire to be noticed and/or hatred.
You may well be interested in the latest calls to investigate Pam Geller's shocking actions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aw35yiXAKg
Why is it our top apologists are brilliant scholars whilst the anti-muslim brigade's top 'people' just look absurd whilst spewing hatred and nonsense???
If only Dave and Pam could answer.
You might find Fallaci's and Breivik's ideas about being atheists and Christian at the same time strange,the idea of the cultural Christian who does not need to believe in God.But we have
ReplyDeleteNietzsche (1844-1900)
He was probably the greatest philosopher of the 19th century,an atheist,his slogan is "God is dead".
In Will Durant's famous "TheStory of Philosophy"(1926),page 301 he summs up the ideas of the German very well:
"The ethical philosophy of Spencer was not the most natural corollary of the theory of evolution. If life is a struggle for existence in which the fittest survive, then strength is the ultimate virtue, and weakness the only fault. Good is that which survives, which wins; bad is that which gives way and fails.
Only the mid-Victorian cowardice of the English Darwinians, and the bourgeois respectability of French positivists and German socialists, could conceal the inevitableness of this conclusion. These men were brave enough to reject Christian theology, but they did not dare to be logical, to reject the moral ideas, the worship of meekness and gentleness and altruism, which had grown out of that theology. They ceased to be Anglicans, or Catholics, or Lutherans; but they did not dare cease to be Christians.So argued Friedrich Nietzsche."
A Word of Clarification
ReplyDeleteThe English Darwinists were atheists
Comte created his ideology of Positivism,it was atheistic,Comte was an atheist.He is the European creator of Sociology.
Many or maybe most of the socialists were atheists,and the type of socialism called Communism was 100% atheist
I'm curious, what proof do you have that directly links Brevick to David Wood's blog? Or is this just more speculation and hearsay on your part?
ReplyDeleteJust posted this on David's blog. I doubt he will approve:
ReplyDeleteHi Dave,
Don’t shoot Dave. I simply come armed with a link to my latest blog containing a video concerning your reporting of the Oslo terrorist attack. Don’t worry, it is not about you lying or blundering about Islam so you don’t need to go into censorship over-drive (again).
Relax, take a deep breath, and listen to the video, read some of the commentary and ponder upon the material presented.
I’m pretty sure some/if not all of your supporters have hopped over to that vid/link already – after all they are swarming my blog on a regular basis seeking the latest reports on your shoddiness amongst other things.
Here is the link:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/08/david-wood-answering-oslo-and-muslims.html
Surely Dave the state-hopping, anti-sharia, free speech advocate will allow the comment…
Relax and think, Dave.
Peace
YS.
@anonymous
Relax. No need to come over here with such an attitude simply because this site roasts your colleague regularly. Relax, let's discuss things without all this testosterone flying around.
Opening gambit:
Did you listen to the video?
Peace
Its RAMADAN, a festive month where Muslism deprive themselves of food and water during the day only to gourge themselves at night and after they wake up before sunsrise. Oh what a joyess holiday.
ReplyDeleteEvidently for starving Muslims Ramadan is not such a festive time of year.
Somali refugees: No food to break Ramadan fast
"How will I fast when I don't have something to break it?" asked Abdulle. "All my family are hungry and I have nothing to feed them. I feel the hunger that forced me from my home has doubled here."
Not to fear, Muslims are starting a food drive so starving Muslims can well STARV during the day.
I'm not making this up people they are sending food to starving Muslims so they can fast during Ramadan. Just another case of how obscene Islam is.
"Sheik Ali Sheik Hussein, a mosque leader in Mogadishu, called it "worrying" that many Somalis cannot fast because they are already weak from hunger and don't have food to regain their strength after sundown."
Its not worrying that many Muslims are STARVING day in and day out becasue of Islam. What worries him is that since they are starving they can not fast.
Snowman the racist, Neo Nazi Muslim has done it yet again.
ReplyDeleteLet me get this straight.
Muslims who pray 5 times a day, go to mosq on friday, One Muslims that I know of even led Friday prayers when the Iman was out of town.
Other Muslims like family and friends say about these Muslims that "They are really relegious... They take their religion seriously...They are good Muslims. These "good relegious Muslims" go on to blow up, shoot up, and chop off peopels heads all the while chanting "allah akbar"
But to a facist islamic Nazi like Snowman these people are Not Muslims nor do they represent Islam.
But a man who states very clearly in his manifesto that he has "Never been religious"... says about god "If there IS A GOD" states that prayer is crutch for week people... This man who to my knowlege has not been to church since he was 16, was a lonner and not in any fellowship with other believers. Some how this man is a Christian.
Yeah that makes sense only to a christianphobe, westernphobe, civilization phobe facist bigot nazi like Yahya Snow.
Great job exposing yourself yet again.
Another Christian OWNED
ReplyDeleteLuv this blog
Everybody has to love the irony that Yahya would say David was "foaming at the mouth". Where have I heard of people following someone like that? Hmmmm. And to think: their own sources tell us that this would happen to Muhammad when he received "revelation".
ReplyDeleteP.S. It looks like GreekAsianPanda is on the bandwagon over here as well. What a shame. You are going downhill fast, lady. You will be burkafied in no time. In fact, with your anti-trinitarianism you will fit right in. Have fun.
@ minoria
ReplyDeletewhere does breivik say he's agnostic?
@radical
people who are already starving don't have to fast
//P.S. It looks like GreekAsianPanda is on the bandwagon over here as well. What a shame. You are going downhill fast, lady. You will be burkafied in no time. In fact, with your anti-trinitarianism you will fit right in. Have fun//
ReplyDeletethats not greek asian panda.
Everybody has to love the irony that Yahya would say David was "foaming at the mouth". Where have I heard of people following someone like that? Hmmmm. And to think: their own sources tell us that this would happen to Muhammad when he received "revelation".
ReplyDeleteEVIDENCES?
Look at the Muslim above pretending that Yahya has "owned" a Christian. Of course owning (literally) other people in the sense of man-stealing has a long history in Islam going right back to their prophet, but as for owning in the sense of prevailing in a discussion, Yahya routinely comes up short. He will be appropriately embarrassed once again on this issue. But hey, he likes it.
ReplyDeleteNormally I don't like watching the little guy get picked on, but this one is constantly yipping one inane and slanderous remark after another and twisting what people say and do. So in his case I am quite entertained watching him insert his foot in his mouth so often.
Michigan: "Evidences?"
ReplyDeleteNow that is the sort of thing Yahya is accustomed to that makes him look so bad. Playing coy and pretending people won't read what it says in the Islamic sources and won't find these things out reflects very badly on the character of Muslims who claim to be "rightly guided".
Anyway, here goes:
"The authoritative Hadith (Tradition) relate that Muhammad used to faint whenever revelation came to him. It is claimed he used to act like a drunkard (See Al-Sirah al-Nabawiya, by Ibn Hisham; chapter on how revelation came). In his boo, Al-Qur’an al-Majid, Darwaza claims that Muhammad was taken out of this world. Abu Huraira says that ‘whenever Muhammad received revelation, he was overwhelmed by trembling.’ Another account says: ‘He became distressed, foaming at the mouth and closing his eyes. At times he snorted like a young camel’ (Ahmad b. Hanbal I, 34, 464, VI, 163)." (The True Guidance (Part Four): An Introduction to Quranic Studies [Light of Life, P.O. Box, A-9503, Villach, Austria], p. 9; bold emphasis ours)
"In tradition (رواية) it is stated that he said, "I fear lest I should become a magician, lest one should proclaim me a follower of the Jinn"; and again: "I fear lest there should be madness" (or demoniac possession جنون) "in me". After an accession of shivering and shutting his eyes, there used to come over him what resembled a swoon, his face would foam, and he would roar like a young camel: Abu Hurairah says: "As for the Apostle of God, when inspiration descended on him, no one could raise his glance to him until the inspiration came to an end." In Tradition it is stated that "He was troubled thereat, and his face would foam, and he closed his eyes, and perchance roared like the roaring of the young camel.' 'Umar ibnu'l Khattab says: "When inspiration descended on the Apostle of God, there used to be heard near his face as it were the buzzing 1 of bees." (C.G. Pfander, The Mizan-Ul-Haqq (Balance of Truth), pp. 345-346
And the demon "convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth.”
Ooops, I got a little carried away. The last one wasn't about Muhammad but about a demon possessed boy that Jesus delivered.
If you would like some more examples from Islamic sources, I would be happy to give them. Just ask.
ANONYMOUS DUDE ABOVE SOUNDS PISSED. LOL
ReplyDeleteChristianity is a religion of the book. From the outset, it has stressed specific texts as authoritative scripture. Yet not one of these original, authoritative texts exists today. We have only late copies, dating from the second century to the sixteenth. And these copies vary considerably. Indeed, the 5,700 manuscripts of the Greek New Testament that have been catalogued contain more variations than there are words in the New Testament. Some scholars say there are 200,000 variant readings, others say 300,000, 400,000 or even more!
Some variant readings are simply scribal mistakes. Others are editorial “improvements” intended to make the text easier to understand. Still others are deliberate attempts by the scribes to make the texts more amenable to the doctrines being espoused by Christians of their own persuasion and to eliminate the possible “misuse” of the texts by Christians affirming heretical beliefs.1
Ali,
ReplyDeleteSure it is. Little reason to doubt it.
Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?
ReplyDelete(a) Yes (Matthew 3:13-14)
(b) No (John 1:32,33)
Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism?
(a) Yes (John 1:32, 33)
(b) No (Matthew 11:2)
According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?
(a) “If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true” (John 5:3 1)
(b) “Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true” (John 8:14)
When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day?
(a) Yes (Matthew 21:12)
(b) No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark I 1:1- 17).
The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once?
(a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19)
(b) No. It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)
Did Judas kiss Jesus?
(a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)
(b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)
What did Jesus say about Peter’s denial?
(a) “The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times” (John 13:38).
(b) “Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times” (Mark 14:30) . When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.
Did Jesus bear his own cross?
(a) Yes (John 19:17)
(b) No (Matthew 27:31-32)
Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn?
(a) Yes(Matthew27:50-5 1;MarklS:37-38)
(b) No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46)
Did Jesus say anything secretly?
(a) No. “I have said nothing secretly” (John 18:20)
(b) Yes. “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything” (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matthew 13: 1 0-11)
Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?
(a) On the cross (Mark 15:23)
(b) In Pilate’s court (John 19:14
Just got done watching the video.
ReplyDeleteFirst the good. At least I did not have to hear Snowmans horrendous voice.
Now for the bad.
The whole video the Muslim falsly accused David Wood of doing the very thing he was doing in the video. Amazing.
Anonymous dude sounds pissed? How is that for reading into a post I laughed all the way through? Oh well, we do have to remember we are talking to Muslims people. They see things that aren't there, such as: evidence for their prophet in our Scriptures, people being angry, and Jinn who play tricks on them during the day and night. (Yahya is famous for claiming to have seen Jinn)
ReplyDeleteNotice also that he ran from the point that I made which he asked me to provide the evidence for.
As for his poor cut and past job trying to attack the Bible, the quotation from Ehrman above, which he didn't provide the source for and pretended like it was his own (more lying from a Muslim who pretends to be "rightly guided"), Ehrman has been more than effectively answered by textual scholars like Daniel Wallace. I would cut and paste something from Wallace, but if you are given to running from evidences when they are provided and to dishonest ways of prosecuting your case, then evidence will not matter to you.
By the way, we only need one Muslim sticking his foot in his mouth around here. The blog owner has it covered. Please just sit back and let us enjoy the show.
@Ali
ReplyDeleteYou wrote...
"@radical
people who are already starving don't have to fast"
Wow that is some profound thinking there. Starving people don't have to fast LOL.
THERE STARVING SO THERE ALREADY FASTING LOL.
But the point of the article is that Muslims are concerned not that Muslims are starving but that they will not be able to FAST becasue their starving. So therefor there going to give starving MUSLIMS FOOD, so they CAN FAST lol
You don't see how obscene that is?
Bismillah.
ReplyDeleteRadicallyfundie, you must really question your sanity if you cannot differentiate between fasting and starving.
But I encourage you to consider fasting, there are many reasons to consider regulated abstaining from eating as a benefit to your health and spiritual life.
Remember sin entered the world through the disobedience of eating
Bismillah.
ReplyDeleteHi Anon,
I have been a muslim all my 40+ life, and live a constant study of Islam, yet I have not came across anything of that sort in Muslim, Bukhari, Dawood or Tirmidhi. Just copy paste a "tradition" from anti-Islam missionary sources:
- "Light of Life, P.O. Box, A-9503, Villach, Austria"
- "C.G. Pfander, The Mizan-Ul-Haqq (Balance of Truth), pp. 345-346"
Make it too obvious that you are just within the camp of blatant racists who fuel hatred toward Muslims and eventually produce more christians of Breivik morality
If you are sincere enough, you must be aware that for a tradition considered authentic (sahih) it must have a continuous isnad, made up of reporters of trustworthy memory from similar authorities, and which is found to be free from any irregularities (i.e. in the text) or defects (i.e. in the isnad)otherwise those are pure lies
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Eirk
ReplyDeleteLOL why is it Muslism always through there sources under the buss.
It is the funniest thing to watch Muslims squirm when faced with the truth about their Prophet.
So sad your so ashamed of how your prophet recieved revelation from his God
Hello Ali,you asked where breivik said he was an agnostic,it appears in his Manifesto,in the part he says most atheists and agnostics in the West or Europe are Christians,etc,and then he says he is one of them.
ReplyDeleteHe meant Christian the way Oriana Fallaci,Italian intellectual,anti-Islam writer meant it when she said she was Christian atheist.
Or The Case of Abdelwahab Meddeb
ReplyDeleteHe is an atheist from Tunisia ,who lives in France,his books are famous there,and the most famous is his 2002 "La Maladie de l'islam/The Malady/Sickness of Islam"
I have read him say it,that he is a Muslim atheist.I dont know if he still says it,and in the articles about him also many times he is called Muslim atheist,or atheist who is a Muslim.
He says he is a Muslim by culture,of Muslim background,but an atheist.Here is more information about him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelwahab_Meddeb
Bismillah
ReplyDeletewhy is that when Brevik turned out to be a self-professed Christian terrorist the Christian camp in this blog were quick to comment that it’s not the Christian teachings that motivated Breivik to kill,that Breivik is not a christian etc. etc.
The abundant evidence of the Bible clearly demonstrates that the OT ad NT is a very violent book with many, many instances of mass killings, ethnic cleanings and collective punishments.
Breivik action is understandable in the context troubling OT images of God where he is portrayed as ordering the killing of innocent infants and children look at 1 Samuel 15, we can look at Jesus advocacy of mass killings in the book of revelation.
As a human being, as a muslim I will never thought of innocent babies as being worthy of execution, never..
if one worship the true God and embrace the authentic teaching of Jesus and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them), they won't be innocent killing.
You have a problem with Islam? Learn well my friend.
@Eirk
ReplyDeleteYou wrote...
"why is that when Brevik turned out to be a self-professed Christian terrorist
My response he can call himself what ever he wants doenst make him a Christian. Now by your logic that means that Ahmadeyians are MUSLIMS. I would like to hear you say that on this blog that Ahmadeyians are Muslims. After all they call themselves Muslims right so there for they must be Muslims.
You went on to write...
"the Christian camp in this blog were quick to comment that it’s not the Christian teachings that motivated Breivik to kill,that Breivik is not a christian etc. etc.
My response, answer because unlike Islam it is not Christian teaching to go out and murder people becasue they disagree with your views. Like what Mohamed did to the Jewish Poet, that Snowman was quick to defend.
Also notice can you show me any church, any church leader, of any denomination that applauds what this nut case did? Can you show me any country that will name a street after him?
I can do that for a lot of MUSLIM terrorist who go out and kill inocent people. There was just a case where a Pali terrorist, who murdered a Israeli solidiers family, and took their little girl as WAR BOOTY. WHen he was cornered and could not escape, he either DASHED her head against the rocks, or bashed her head in with the butt of his rifle.
After he was released from prison, he returned to a hero's welcome.
Another case a street or a square was named after a Pali terrorist who butched people in a buss.
You then went on to write...
The abundant evidence of the Bible clearly demonstrates that the OT ad NT is a very violent book with many, many instances of mass killings, ethnic cleanings and collective punishments.
While I will agree with you on the Old Testement that God poors out his wrath on wicked sinful people who are named by name, and confined to a small geographical region and time.
Can you find me one NT passage that spouts violence. (let me guess the parrable of the ten mina's) lol
But either way none of this can or is used to justify what this nut cas did. Unlike when a muslim practices Islam, Muslim clerics line up to explain how what he did was justifiable in the Quran.
You went on to write...
"As a human being, as a muslim I will never thought of innocent babies as being worthy of execution, never.."
Really then why do Muslims kill inocent children.
Case in point, a group of Muslims broke into the home of a PEACEFUL jewish settler and slaughtered a entire family. Inocent babies were carved up like cattle. Only two children survived, one a teen ager and second was a little boy who either played dead or hid from his Muslim murders.
EIthere way the people in the Pali town know who did it, they are called HERO's and no one is coming forward to condem what they did and turn them over.
Well I think that is enough for you.
Erik said:
ReplyDelete"The abundant evidence of the Bible clearly demonstrates that the OT ad NT is a very violent book with many, many instances of mass killings, ethnic cleanings and collective punishments.
Breivik action is understandable in the context troubling OT images of God where he is portrayed as ordering the killing of innocent infants and children look at 1 Samuel 15,
we can look at Jesus advocacy of mass killings in the book of revelation.
As a human being, as a muslim I will never thought of innocent babies as being worthy of execution, never.."
First about 1 SAM 15
ReplyDeleteYes, 1 Sam 15:3 says to kill the children of the Amalekites but not because children are not worthy of heaven.Jesus said heaven is populated by children.
God created life out of nothing and the creator has the right to take it away.
If the creator decided to take his creation to a place of eternal happiness,heaven,children in this case,then he can order it.
Mass killings of Revelations
ReplyDeleteI beleive you refer to the battle of Armagedon.For your information it is a mass of soldiers intent on killing that are killed by Jesus,an army.
By the way,it is the army of the Antichrist.
If I am not mistaken you believe in an Antichrist or Dajjal and his evil followers who will be defeated,judged,condemned by Jesus or the Mahdi,correct?
The order to kill the Cananites
ReplyDeleteOne of the reason was child sacrifice.In the OT,if you read carefully,punishment is announced but repetance brings its suspension(example:Jonah and the city of Nineveh)
The case of Manasseh
He was a very evil Jewish king.
2 Kings 21:16 says he was a Mass Murderer
"Moreover, Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end—besides the sin that he had caused Judah to commit, so that they did evil in the eyes of the LORD."
Then it says he did child sacrifice,his OWN CHILDREN:
ReplyDelete2 CHRONICLES 33:6:
"He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger."
Minoria
ReplyDeleteVery well laid out. But the problem is Eriks god can not punish wicked people, he can only give them wine and woman.
Just like the Cananites,child sacrifice,but he repented and was forgiven,the Cananites did not,their condemnation was not lifted.
ReplyDelete2 Chronicles 33:9-13:
"But Manasseh led Judah and the people of Jerusalem astray,
so that they did more evil than the nations the LORD had destroyed before the Israelites".
NOTE:here it implies alot of child sacrifice
"The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention. 11 So the LORD brought against them the army commanders of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh prisoner, put a hook in his nose, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon. 12
In his distress he sought the favor of the LORD his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of his ancestors. 13 And when he prayed to him, the LORD was moved by his entreaty and listened to his plea; so he brought him back to Jerusalem and to his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD is God."
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDelete1 Samuel 15
Saul’s first task as king was to ethnically cleanse the land of the Amalekite peoples:
15:1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people, over Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord.
15:2 This is what the Almighty Lord says: ‘I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and utterly destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
Clearly God commands the ethnic cleansing of an entire people from their land, he commands the slaughter of innocent women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
The Amalekites were to be punished for something none of them had any role in:
‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.’
But this was over 300 years before any of them were born! This is totally unjust
Who were the wicked people? Are you saying that babies and sheep etc are wicked? Does that justify God slaughtering them? What kind of god do you believe in?!
In Islam all babies are innocent of any sin. Alhamdulillah.
Why would anyone buy the word "destroy", "put to death" with your extreme euphimism "take his creation to a place of eternal happiness,heaven".
very well laid out uh?..I keep my religion mine thank you
dear mr. fadli,
ReplyDeletei dont understand why are you trying to achieve by bringing up the war between the israelites and the amalekites, are yout trying to legitimize your prophet's own violent acts by pleading to the old testament? muslims are claming that islam is the final and perfect message but why does it require to look for legitimacy from sources outside of it? isn't islam supposed to offer better solutions and answers? then why is it repeating something that was done many centuries earlier?
i used to live in indonesia but now i am in europe, so i can see how different people here resolve conflicts than in indonesia. i think mostly it is because of the improvement in culture and social beliefs. europeans are trying very hard to find new solutions to social problems while in indonesia the muslims are flipping their holy texts very hard to legitimize whatever they are doing.
i could keep on talking on and on, but if muslims are really trying to offer something new and inovative for the world, then i would like to see what? show me a single social or political innovation which can be attributed to muslims, which cannot be anyway be attributed to any other civilization, and i will be very happy and satisfied.
thanks
Hello Fadli:
ReplyDeleteThe stories in the OT tell a lesson.That is noticed early by interpreters.
I gave you the Manasseh and Jonah and Nineveh examples because they give a clear message:if you repent you and accept the true God will be forgiven.
Now in 1 Sam there is mention of the Amalekites being condemned to extinction 300 years before more or less.
It was not done, so the Amalekites had 300 years to change
THEY DID NOT.
How do we know?
Very easy,the were worshipping other,false gods and not Yahweh
ABOUT THE ANIMALS BEING KILLED
ReplyDeleteThe reason is so the Jews would not benefit materially.They were to get no booty from the act.
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDeleteHi Anon, unlike most of the Islamophobes here I appreciate your gracious tone, unfortunately you prefer to be anon.
The issues was the genocidal behaviour of Anders Breivik the "Justiciar Knight" in his crusade against Islam. He must have took inspiration from his holy book.
In Christianity we have this abundant evidence of the Bible which demonstrates that the OT ad NT is a very violent book with many, many instances of mass killings, ethnic cleanings and collective punishmentsof this sort of behaviour sanctioned by God:
i) God commands the ethnic cleansing of an entire people from their land, he commands the slaughter of innocent women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. This is cruel.
Why did God need to kill innocent babes and animals? and so we cannot believe this is true of God.
ii) The Amalekites were to be punished for something none of them had any role. This repeated many times in the Torah (and in the New Testament too)
It’s as if the Ducth people today were being punished for the sins of their forefathers occupying and killing Indigenous people in Indonesian archipelago during Elizabethan times!
(well no formal apology ever been offered up till now)
Why did God need to kill innocent babes and animals? Why not just kill the guilty?
Collective punishment for sins of people hundreds of years ago violates the basic concepts of Justice. And where is the principle of moral responsibility here?
Minoria tried to explain apparently, those generation of Amelekites including babies,animal and plants were not innocent…
This is the theology used by the German Christians to justify the extermination of the Jews
In Islam we have concept of our individual responsibility before God. Alhamdulillah.
dear mr. fadli,
ReplyDeletethe entire story of good and evil can be explained in many ways, and good can sometimes be relative (object of criticism) i dont think the dutch is being punished for colonializing our beloved country. the muslims sacked sunda kalapa (jakarta) and drove all its hindu inhabitants away, the muslims also sacked majapahit and forced the hindus out of their homes.
you cannot blame history or legitimize anything from ancient history. read the old testament further, and you will see that the israelites would soon become the victims of oppression by various forces.
what i am saying here is that you cannot justify violence with violence, and sometimes you need to see that you are never bound by the past and have the freedom to create a better future.
i dont understand muslims when they talked about the islam as if it were the only, ultimate answer for all problems in the world. there was a time when muslims ruled the world with their caliphates, guess what, it didnt work. european conquest could also be attributed to this islamic hagemony. the europeans felt threatened by muslims.
muslims are saying that they have the solutions but would denounce any islamic country as islamic, so, where should non muslims or ordinary muslims look for an example of this so called ideal islamic utopia? in islamic early history? with its wars? civil wars? political struggles?
muslims should really try to understand why other people are criticizing them, why other people are scared of them, why did brevik feel in the first place to do what he did.
you may say that its all the americans and its ally's fault because they support israel and all, but watch and see how the islamic world are reacting towards israeli's occupation? do you think threatening to kill someone would make that someone less deffensive?
what is going on in europe nowadays is a reaction of fear, and it is not a phobia, it can be traced to numerous events and circumstances. just as i am afraid of coming back to indonesia, which is becoming more and more islamized everyday.
when you are honest with yourself, you will also see that islamic answers arent perfect. in fact, there is no such thing as a perfect solution to all problems, if there were such a thing, we would not have any problems, do we?
the rest of the world has understood this, will muslims still keep their eyes shut? i am not saying that you should change, or convert or anything. half of the members of my family is muslim, and i love them, and love means i take them as they are. but i would also like muslims to consider criticism towards them as contributions for their future development, and the world, and perhaps someday your dream of making islam as rahmatul alamin will come true, even without islamizing the entire world.
peace
dear mr. fadli,
ReplyDeletei am sorry that i am not responding to any of those stuff you wrote. i dont feel that i need to defend god for anything. he is god after all, he does not need me to do anything for him. i am sure god can defend himself.
peace
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDeleteHi Anon,
Yes for people brought up in Islam like me, or a convert with conviction will see Islam as a Comprehensive Way of Life centred around the one and only God ie. Allah, the Creator of the Universe.
It already has its own inter-dependent solutions in dealing with all aspect in life notably (1) Spiritual (2) Theological or Philosophical (3) Cultural-Educational (4) Social (5)Ethical (6) Political (7) Economic .
For muslims, an ideal Islamic civilization has alraed have all solution this systems in which all parts are inter-dependent and reinforce each other.
I agree Islamic civilization is now stagnant but this as as result of colonialism and now Islamic civilization is struggling to regain its golden age within the existing Secular western world domination
My understanding of problem with the muslims is that muslim forgot, ignored or abandoned the true spirit of their religion, became habituated to traditions, dogmas and rituals without understanding, failed to fulfill their duties as vicegerents.
Indeed, the Quran itself promised their replacement :-
"If ye turn away,- I (at least) have conveyed the Message with which I was sent to you. My Lord will make another people to succeed you, and you will not harm Him in the least. For my Lord hath care and watch over all things" 11:57
I adore scientific advancement in Europe and I think muslims must catch up in the area of technology, and education based on islamic virtues.
".. the muslims sacked sunda kalapa (jakarta) and drove all its hindu inhabitants away, the muslims also sacked majapahit and forced the hindus out of their homes.."
ReplyDeleteHi Anon,
Please you dont fall into the trap of anti-Muslim loons, did you deliberately misquoting history?
The ancestors of the nowadays inhabitant of Java were animists, Hindus and Buddhists whose were willing to embrace Islam by peaceful means. they adopt Islam due to interaction with Muslim traders from India who introduced Islam in 15 - 16 century
Forced conversion will never work. People will be living a lie, they'll never believe in the religion they're forced to follow.
dear mr. fadli,
ReplyDeletemuslims did not forget anything, they did not have any in the first place. what you have are ideas, and ideas need to be tested, examined, and valued. the spirit of critical thinking is the foundation of western success. muslims need to evaluate their ideas, which might have worked in 7th century arabia and not in the present day.
listen to other people, and instead of trying to defend anything, try to understand why are they thinking that way about you, maybe when you have discovered the reason why people are afraid of the muslims, then you will be able to understand yourself better too.
muhammad's greatest failure was to never gave any room for doubt, and never really dealt with the question of how to handle criticism. the attitude of muslims nowadays reflect this. i am sure islam can do many good things for people who believe in it. but even the best medicine comes with a side effect.
my soshu once said, when you see something that you dont like, then change it, and if you cant change it, change yourself.
when you change the way you see the world, the world will also change, and perhaps someday you will see that all you need to do to fix the problems of the world, is by changing your attitude towards it.
peace
http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunda_Kelapa
ReplyDeletemuslims did sacked sunda kelapa, because the hindu kingdom made a treaty with the portugese... you will even learn this from elementary school history book
http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majapahit
and the other one is about majapahit. dont worry i am not saying anything more about it. its ancient history and its our history.
peace
Hi Anon,
ReplyDeleteYou deliberately choose the wordings "muslims sacked hindus", yes I learnt that from elementary education it was actually a war against the European Christian colonioal power the Portugeuese at that time.
It was subsequent fellow European Christian colonialist the Dutch, which razed the Sunda kalapa city to ashes.
what else do you want to call it? demak sacked sunda? yes everyone is sacking everyone else, does that make sacking right? this is what i have been trying to say. if you read further you will see that sunda kelapa made treaty with the portuguese because they were afraid of the growing islamic demak kingdom... of course, this has been a pattern in indonesia, before islam came the kingdoms of java were rivals.
ReplyDeletemy question is still standing, if sacking eachother has always been taking place in java, even before islam came, and when islam came, it still happened, what innovation did islam bring? you may say that it ended the caste system, or the practice of burning the wife when the husband died, but it also brought us the murder of sheik siti jennar for having different view than wali sanga, or the sacking of sunda kelapa.
but i was told a very good story about sunan kalijaga who stopped chasing the hindus in banyu wangi because he considered them as his brothers.
indonesia has a long tradition of tolerance and peace between in diverse groups. islam has always been good at mobilizing large group of people and bind them as a society, but it needs to be more relax and be more open to criticism, and to see everything as they are. and in time, i think, you will have the utopia which you have been pursuing for.
peace
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDeleteAnon you are obviously to judge the prophet Muhamamad (p)
You are quick blame Islam or prophet Muhamamad (p) for what happen . What you are seeing now is the systematic demonization of Islam by those who fear the increasing number of muslim. This blog is trying to present a fact about true Islam.
Christian churhes used to exterminate religious heresies within themselves, so now began to seek out ways to exterminate heresies outside and Islam becomes a sort of Christian heresy in the western
Look at what Pope Urban II said in his famous speech at Clairmont in 1095: the faithful Christians must 'exterminate the vile races' of the Turks and the Muslims from the face of the earth. The effort failed, but the mindset continued. And Western civilization institutionalizes this extermination by developed unprecedented war-machineries. it is muslims who feel threatened and oppresed around the world by the propaganda
Im of chinese ancestry as well, remember -- the Chinese had gunpowder long before Europe, but they didn't develop weapons of mass-destruction.
With regard muslims attitude and so on well the Qur'an command muslims to do ijtihad that is letting scholarly effort to intrepret the teaching of Islam copying or obeying without question. Muslims must use their own judgment if they faced problems to which there was no specific solution in the Holy Quran or the traditions of Prophet Muhammad. We dont have muslim Pope or appointed archbisop like Organized Church.
This encouragement of free judgment is a green signal that stimulates people to think, but without going against the principles of Islam that is the Oneness of God the Tawheed and the recognition that Muhammad (p) is the last prophet.
Yes there are some bad muslims too thats why I believe muslim need change also a spiritual change:-
"Allah changes not the condition of a folk until they first change that which is in their hearts; and if Allah wills misfortune for a folk there is none that can repel it, nor have they a defender besides Him." 13:11
i dont judge anyone! it is not my right and it is not my duty to judge. but i do write a lot from my experience. my house in indonesia was only a few hundreds meter from a mosque, and god, how stupid are the things they are saying there. once i heard something like: "tommorow is christmas day, parents must protect their children so they will not fall to the trap of christianization". well, i knew a woman who became a christian but became a muslim again. many of my family members converted from something to something else.
ReplyDeletei understand your need to protect your group, after all it is your identity, but when you protect the ones you care about by shuting them from outside views and criticism, isnt that actualy a disrespect towards them? isnt that undermining their ability to protect their own conviction?
muhammad must have had his reason to be as rigid as he was, he was trying to get his people out of the desert and into civilization, but stop and think for a while, do you think you can use the same ideas which he used for this contemporary time?
i find islamic ideas about social responsibility and equality among people to be wonderful things, but what about its views regarding corporal punishment? polygamy? and its rigid law enforcement? do you think that those still make sense? do you think it is ok that our sisters are being beheaded in saudi arabia, because they were defending themselves? or because they were demanding their right?
i have heard about the verse you mentioned many times, and i do agree with it, we do need to go and change the world, but we need to change ourselves first, be open minded and understand others. when your are really really listening to your so called "islamophobes" you will find out for yourself that they are exactly as terrified with muslims, just as those muslims i told you about before of being "christianized" and when you have understood this fear, perhaps you too could do as your prophet did, to bring out your people out of the desert.
peace
Erik Fadi
ReplyDeleteI have a question for you that I want you to seriously think about before you answer.
Of all the verses you quoted from the OT, do you see any difference between those verses and verses in the Quran like Suah 9:5,9,11, 9,12, 9:14, 9:29, ?
radical moderate, criticism is not about showing this and that and say that mine is better than yours. criticism means understanding and showing genuine concern about something out of love for someone else.
ReplyDeleteeven if you have somehow managed to convince every muslim in the world that their book is bad (which i really doubt that you could) what will happen next? will you be able to offer them something better? will you be able to provide them with things you thought they were deprived from?
i dont like appeasers just as much as i dont like fanatics. if people learn to listen to others, and remove the block of wood in front of their own eyes before trying to remove a splinter in front of their brother's eyes, then all their energy, all their efforts will be all theirs and they will fight a good fight and save the day, they will not biting blindly but let life to take its natural course and nourish life to the fullest.
best wishes!
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDeleteHi Radicallyfundie, I hope you took my advice to start fasting. it has a greatdeal of benefit such as self-control and good manner.
Those verses were revealed as the result of direct act of war by the neighbouring Christian Roman Empire during prophet Muhammad (p) which had killed many innocent Muslim messengers and newly follower of Islam of several Christian Arab tribes for not choosing Christianity.
Do they expect the Muslims to simply sit down and let this happen? God revealed this verse so that the Muslims could defend themselves against the onslaught of one of the worlds greatest empire at the time which were the Romans, Allah gave the Muslims permission to attack them, as they say, the best defence is an offence. The Muslims were forced to act, the Muslims did not start the war, the Christians did, and they lost, they should have never started the war with the Muslims. Muslims are not mere European Pagans who Christians could pick on and burnt.
The Muslims had God on their side InsyaAllah.
In Islam as for fighting the Qur'an repeatedly emphasizes that defensive war -- fighting* to protect oneself against invading enemies* This *is* the only kind of combat sanctioned (2:190 - 191).
But in numerous other examples, it teaches that the use of force should be a last resort (2:192, 4:90); that normal relations between peoples, nations and states, whether Muslim or not, should be peaceful (49:13); that necessary wars must be limited in time and space (2:190); that maximum effort must be applied at all times to advance the cause of peace (10:25); that whatever means are undertaken to work for peace during a conflict (such as mediation and arbitration) must be attempted over and over again until resolution is achieved (8:61); that freedom of religion must be granted to every one (2:256), and so on.
Nowhere it is close to those passages in human tampered book such as I Samuel 15 and Deut. 7, 9 and Psalm 137 which absolutely graphic cruelty against innocent.
Anders Behring Breivik mass extermination and indiscrimate actions against the innocent clearly took inspiration from the bible, a very Christian act as all the evidence is clearly outlined in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcJvS3gx8QY&feature=player_embedded
You can have your god who butchers innocent infants and I’ll worship the true God of Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon them.
@Erick
ReplyDeleteYou wrote...
Hi Radicallyfundie, I hope you took my advice to start fasting. it has a greatdeal of benefit such as self-control and good manner.
What you guys do on Ramadan is not fasting, it is binge/ purge and then binge again for a whole month. Not healthy.
You then attempted to answer my question...
"Those verses were revealed as the result of direct act of war by the neighbouring Christian Roman Empire during prophet Muhammad (p) which had killed many innocent Muslim messengers and newly follower of Islam of several Christian Arab tribes for not choosing Christianity."
That is completely false. Do you have any proof for this? The Romans were busy killing the Persians they had no interest in a bunch of nomadic desert dwellers. There was no BATTLE or invasion by Romans, this is another Islamic myth. But be that as it may that surah was revealed after the conquest of Mecca, it has nothing to do with the Romans either real or imagined.
But putting all that aside, where in that entire surah does it mention this mythical Roman invasion? As a matter of fact surah 9 deals specifically with the Pagans who 'Drove you out" not the Romans.
And that is what I wanted you to notice, something you failed to do since you were making up explanations to your book. Explanations that are complete myths and have nothing to do with the text. You see in the bible verses you quoted from Gods Word, the people who are being destroyed are named by NAME, the region and location they live in is NAMED. This is not a open ended call to kill un named people in various parts of the world. This is specific and for a set purpose.
Now compare that to the verses in surah 9. No people are named by name, no region is named by name, the only time frame that is established is after the forbidden months have passed then FIGHT THEM. Who is them? Idolaters, Pagans, Christians and Jews anyone who is not a Muslim. Is there any limit to the location that this fighting is to take place? Is it confined to the region of Mecca and Medina, or even to the Arab Peninsula? "WHERE EVER YOU FIND THEM" what does that mean "WHERE EVER YOU FIND THEM? To me it says "where ever you find them fight them.
Well I think that’s it for you.
Anon wrote...
ReplyDelete"even if you have somehow managed to convince every muslim in the world that their book is bad (which i really doubt that you could) what will happen next? will you be able to offer them something better? will you be able to provide them with things you thought they were deprived from? "
I most certainly can and do offer them something much better, and that is the blood atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The only name in heaven and on earth that men are saved by, the only name above all other names, the only mediator between man and God. Which is something they and you lack.
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDeleteIt is the funniest thing to watch Radfundie squirm when faced with the truth about his holy book, Im also sad he so ashamed of how god in the bible is cruel.
Its entirely your view to dismiss the historical event from muslim commentary regarding Surah Taubah.
Muslim scholars of Qur’anic exegesis [tafsir] agree that this Surah deals specifically with the war situation. It is not in muslim understanding that those verse are generalized to refer to all unbelivers such an interpretation is not confirmed by muslims scholars of Qur’anic interpretation.
But nowhere it is close to Biblical justification for slaughtering the innocent
A specific and for a set purpose? the reality is different. This passage motivates Christian's actrocities for centuries (Catholics in the Nazi SS, or the Orthodox Christians in the Army of the Republika Srpska, or the Catholics in the Hutu Interahamwe, until recent example Oslo killing example where Anders Breivik calls for a Christian war to defend Europe against Islam).
They are no verses in the Quran that promote, sanction, or justify genocide. Indeed, there are explicit statements of the Prophet Muhammad forbidding the killing of women and children.
Another instance was in Numbers 31:17-18
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves".
This passage even commanded the Children of Israel to keep alive only those virgins for themselves.
Hmmm..how blood thirtyness is your god.
Again the Psalm.
Psalm 137:8-9 "O daughter of Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall they be who pay you back what you have done to us! Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!"
Again, a celebration of the killing of children.
Can you honestly say you believe in a god of love?
No matter how sinful, degenerate or whatever about the adults, are there offsprings to be killed?
hey fr. fadli,
ReplyDeleteand again you quote from the bible, and what is your purpose? by pointing out violent verses, can you then justify violence done by the muslim? can you justify mistreatment of our sisters and brothers in islamic lands? you only show that people would do anything to justify their attrocities. if the words in the quran so perfect and precise, why do some muslims use it to commit acts of terrors? if you think that it was wrong for them to do that, then what drove them to use quranic passages to legitimize their aggression? syaitan? then syaitan can also use the quran?
holy scriptures are only writing by people, which are trying to answer specific questions and problems of a specific time. you admit that quran was answering specific problems about warfare, why cant you accept that the bible was also answering specific problems of a specific time? have you ever consider that the war the israelites was so devestating that the meassure they have to take should also be equally dramatic? who are you to judge history and god? who are you to judge if god is violent or benelovent?
this is exactly why i chose to leave religion. sometimes i think that the only reason people participate in religious debates are simply for the thrill, and not for anything else.
if there is such thing as god, and if this god is as described by all you arrogant religious people, then this god must be as arrogant and selfrighteous as you.
peace
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDeleteDear Anon,
Again the issue is here that Christian bigots do full time job to telling lies, obfuscating the truth, demonize Islam, misrepresenting a faith tradition practised by 1.7 billion people in this planet.
This type of people were quick to blame Islam and Muslims to any terror attacks but failing to judge their's own traditions by the same harsh terms.
In case of Norway mass killing, Christian missionary like David Wood was quick to blame Islam and Muslims even before any details about the attacker had been released. Then What amazed me is that once it was revealed that the perpetrator, is a staunchly-Christian, the proclivity to blame his actions on Christian fundamentalism quickly vanished and even thwarted.
What an hypocrisy – to call people out on their inclination to assume Islam promotes violence while at the same time being quick to wash Christianity’s collective hands of any hint of terrorism.
Condemning Islam is something that Muslims are willing to freely discuss. But, this christians are closed to accept same critiques. Few Christians have even an elementary understanding of their own violent tradition.
Yes muslims have wars but Islam do have the code of ethics (adab) how to engage it. History shows the muslims were widely considered better colonialist than their Euro/Christian kings. They taxed less and offered more rights and protection.
I just want to point out that here is nothing in the Quran that compares to the utter racism, the celebration of genocide and pillaging like in the Bible. Frankly, the book of Joshua makes the Vikings look like pikers.
Im sad you come to a conclusion that religion is bad but please dont judge it from the adherents but check what its essentials, how in my own experience as a faulty human being religion have given me guidance to tolerance, compassion and understanding to navigate the paths of this world.
hey mr. fadli,
ReplyDeletethere is a beautiful arabic saying: the sun shares its light for the good and bad alike...
what can you accomplish by defending your faith by words, by fighting? will it do any do good? the greatest colonialist of the islamic world were muslim turks, and the great war for independence in the middle east was among muslims themselves. remember spain? the first crusade? remember the muslims defeat in the gate of vienna? remember devide et impera in our own country? when you go against, you break, when you break you lose power?
by being going against the christians aggresively in debates and so on, you are fueling their agresivity as well, when you debate them hard, they will debate you harder. yes, christian orientalists have been bashing muslims since a long time, but quranic verses have been bashing christian faith to begin with.
hardness begets hardness... dont you remember the wise saying of hanacaraka? two messengers were fighting with eachother, they were both ended up dead?
religious people are blinded by formulized truth which was indoctrinated to them since they were only innocent children, and they fight for these ideas with their life.
zhuang zi made it clear when he said: the wise words of the previous generation were only wastes of the dead....
religious ideas are simply ancient answers for ancient problems, but you are alive for the present and for the future. can religion do good? of course, but the answer is all around you, and you will them when you listen to the world you live in. therein is the gods true revelation.
best wishes
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDeleteHi Anon,
It is your choice to abandon religion. Im well aware of many ancient traditions whether it is Chinese, Hinduism or local javanese wisdoms. To me Islam has the answers to all questions of life for the present and the future. The most important one is Life and Death.
To me Islam is religion which deal with the injustices of life, a religion with a fair and just Creator, strong tenets of faith and pure and preserved scripture.
I agree with your stance that we must listen and question. The Quran too encourages us to think, reflect, ponder, understand and analyse (4:82). Unfortunately many muslims do not do this
.. afalaa yatadab-baruunal qur'aan.. the arabic word tadabbur means highly concentrated goal-oriented critical thinking like the way scientists do when challenged to find something new or when they embark upon solving a difficult problem.
Qur'anic view of creative reflection is called al-Basira.
Also like I mentioned earlier in Islam Ijtihad or independent thinking is used as a principle of creative and critical thinking; and scientific rationality.
This eminent logic which make me find peace in Islam.
Bismillah walhamdulillah washalatu wassalamu 'alaa rasulillah
ReplyDeleteHi Anon,
Im too inclined not to spend too much time arguing with deceptive missionaries. The Quran never bashing cristian faith the way Christian hate mongers bash Islam, Prophet Muhammad,peace be upon him and muslims, but yes it reminds people that Jesus is not God that he is one of the great messenger of God and only Allah is object worthy of worship without any associates or partners (shirk).
I agree with you that muslims shouldn't debate the Christians about the bad things about Bible for example because this isnt what the Quran teaches or the way of Muhammad, peace be upon him. it is part of the faith that We must
believe the Gospel (the injeel) is God inspired. There are a number of things that we might be able to share with them about what we believe that is similar to what they might find in their Book.
There are sayings "Debates bring a lot of heat, but not very much light." and this blog are setup to answers misconception about Islam considering all of the detraction and negative media against Islam and Muslims occuring in these days. But the muslims must respond with wisdom, kind invitation and
logical discussions.
Allah Almighty addresses His Prophet, saying:
“Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.” (An-Nahl: 125)
In the end we need to only say to them the well known beautiful phrase which Im sure you are familiar with
"To you your religion, and to me my religion." (Surah Al-Kafirun 109:6)
hey mr. fadli,
ReplyDeletethe idea that jesus died on the cross and ressurected after 3 days is the key of the entire chtistian faith. when quran denounce it, then it bashed the entire christian faith. this is the same as the idea that muhhamad was a prophet of god is the key of islamic faith, and when christians denouce it, then it rejects islamic faith. but remember that if a christian embraced islam, he will have to denouce his christian faith.
whether islam is being misunderstood, i dont know, i have good relationship with my father who is still a muslim, and with my brother and sistes too.
please notice that for every action there is a reaction. there is nothing you can do about the quran but to accept it, but you can start looking for pararels between religions instead of attacking differences.
i hope i have made myself clear, i am not anti religion, i just dont want to see religion destroys peace between humanity, which you may not admit but i am sure you have seen yourself.
unlike you i have met many kinds of people from different religious backgrounds, i have even met people from many other islamic sects and have had lenghty discussions with them.
i believe that every religion has the right to present themselves as they are, and it is the right of every human being to choose where they want to be, and in regard with co-existence, they simply has to talk to eachother.
i dont intend to drag you into leaving your religion, sorry if i gave you such impression, but this is a religious discussion group.
"Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day: that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy." (Qur'an 20:130)
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. (Romans 12 : 18)
best wishes