Human's holiness is such that they can forgive with out an atoning sacrifice Allah holiness is such that he can forgive without an atoning sacrifice.
Humans require the existence of another being to experience love Allah requires the existance of another being to experience love
The words of Humans are subject to corruption and eventually are lost. Allah word’s (the gospel and torah) are subject to corruption and eventually are lost.
Humans abrogate and rescind and their laws. Allah abrogates and rescinds his laws.
Humans sometimes deceive people Allah sometimes deceives people
I could go on but you get the point. The Muslim God is just a more powerful version of man..
The text in the video only serves to emphasize the point. Being just like a man yet claiming to be somehow different is exactly the sort of thing that men do.
"Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god-- (Ezekiel 28:2)
who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
Contrastthis picture with the Christian God who is wholy other.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28)
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36)
"Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven--what can you do? Deeper than Sheol--what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth and broader than the sea. (Job 11:7-9)
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? (Numbers 23:19)
Fifth Monarchy Man: Contrast this picture with the Christian God who is wholy other.
Let's see. God is the greatest being conceivable. Is Jesus the greatest being conceivable? Nope. I can easily think of many beings that surpass Jesus in his divinity. As such, Jesus is not God.
FMM quoted: God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? (Numbers 23:19)
I say:
LOL! you've just refuted the heresy that Jesus is God. Didn't Jesus refer to himself as son of man? Sorry, maybe he changed his mind around 0 AD or later depending on your particular brand of polytheism and became both man and son of man. So what is it? Does he change his mind or not? You have the audacity to say that God of Islam, the only God is anthropomorphic, while you worship a god that ate, slept and went to the restroom.
Oh no not again, Snowman weren't you Muslims embarrased enough by this man. Please Muslism if you say you love God please for the love of that God do not debate them. You emabrasses us all when you do.
You have to blame Jesus for teaching a prayer that is Explicitly asking God to forgive our debt like WE forgive our debtors.
Can you please comment on how Yahweh, when he discovered the ugly human being he created, he was filled with regrets and he wished that he would have never made such failure. The generated God Jesus, was equal with God then he emptied himself!!! Emtied himself from What? And how can he still be God if he emptied himself? What a mess.
. I can easily think of many beings that surpass Jesus in his divinity. As such, Jesus is not God.
I say,
Please share some of them with us so we can evaluate the validity of your imagination.
lupus says,
you've just refuted the heresy that Jesus is God. Didn't Jesus refer to himself as son of man?
I say,
Come on man you are better than this.
Of course you know
1) That “a son of man” is a different phrase than “the Son of Man” . the former a statement describing a person born of the linage of Adam the latter describing a divine being who has
Quote:
dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:14)
End quote:
2) That the verse says that “God is not a man” not “God cannot be a man”
3) That the person of Jesus was wholly God and wholly man so his human nature could be a “son of man” and at the exact same time his divine nature could be “not a son of man”.
You say,
So what is it? Does he change his mind or not?
I say,
Not !!!!!!!
You say,
You have the audacity to say that God of Islam, the only God is anthropomorphic, while you worship a god that ate, slept and went to the restroom.
I say,
My God does none of those things. Jesus’ divine nature did not eat sleep or use the restroom. Where do you get these strange ideas?
FMM: Please share some of them with us so we can evaluate the validity of your imagination.....
I was going to say that I can think of a deity that does not "eat sleep or use the bathroom" but then I saw your response to a brother:
"Jesus’ divine nature did not eat sleep or use the restroom."
Okay, I can think of a being who like Jesus had two natures, one human and one divine, except that he had a super human nature to the extent that he could fly, shoot laser out of his eyes, crush mountains with one blow, and so forth. Not only is such a being awesome, he is conceivably greater than Jesus.
FMM, remember Jesus was fully divine and fully human. If he was fully human, he couldn't "fly, shoot laser out of his eyes, crush mountains with one blow, and so forth". Remember this before you respond to my argument.
That “a son of man” is a different phrase than “the Son of Man” . the former a statement describing a person born of the linage of Adam the latter describing a divine being who has
I say: In the greek manuscripts is the phrase capitalized? The phrase is in the definite form in the OT as well. That the person of Jesus was wholly God and wholly man so his human nature could be a “son of man” and at the exact same time his divine nature could be “not a son of man”.
My God does none of those things. Jesus’ divine nature did not eat sleep or use the restroom. Where do you get these strange ideas?
I say: Did your god die on the cross? Did he stand on the mount of olives? Did he bleed? If he did all those things he must've also have gone to the restroom. Since he was in jesus, he did whatever jesus did.
You have to blame Jesus for teaching a prayer that is Explicitly asking God to forgive our debt like WE forgive our debtors.
I say,
The verse does not say “like” we forgive our debtors it says "AS"
quote:
and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (Matthew 6:12)
end quote:
there is a huge difference
You say,
Can you please comment on how Yahweh, when he discovered the ugly human being he created, he was filled with regrets and he wished that he would have never made such failure.
I say,
Sure I can. This event never happened. End of comment.
You are for some reason confusing a figure of speech called condescension with an actual description of the divine thought process and attempting to do exactly what the scripture’s say is impossible to do understand the mind of God.
"For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" (1 Corinthians 2:16a)
You say,
The generated God Jesus, was equal with God then he emptied himself!!! Emtied himself from What?
I say,
The Glory he had before the world existed (John 17:5)
1mm
And how can he still be God if he emptied himself?
I say,
Easy
Yahweh unlike Allah is omnipotent. he can do things that would be impossible for humans to do. He can temporarily empty himself without ceasing to be who he is.
Okay, I can think of a being who like Jesus had two natures, one human and one divine, except that he had a super human nature to the extent that he could fly, shoot laser out of his eyes, crush mountains with one blow, and so forth.
I say,
Jesus is many times greater than such a being he can fly shoot laser out his eyes crush mountains and so forth and at the same time sympathize with our weakness (Hebrews 4:15)
You say,
If he was fully human, he couldn't "fly, shoot laser out of his eyes, crush mountains with one blow, and so forth". Remember this before you respond to my argument.
I say,
Actually Jesus could do those all things but because he was greater than a "super human" could choose to for a time set aside certain abilities if he wanted to.
Peace
PS
I find it very telling that when you Imagine a great being you think of a “Super” human. You just proved my point for me
Actually Jesus could do those all things but because he was greater than a "super human" could choose to for a time set aside certain abilities if he wanted to.
Radical Moderate agrees that Yahweh never repented from creating man, as the Bible say. The Bible doesn't mean what it says. What if God didn't become flesh like the Bible says? Why not?
Christian the old game, switch gears as they face different problem. How humanity get atonement: The divine must suffer and die on the cross, a human being cannot atone for all humanity. What is not assumed is not healed. Muslim: So the Divinity ate and went to bathroom? Christian: No the divinity does not do what human do. I guess when Jesus go to bathroom, his divinity stands outside the WC waiting... Have you finished? Harry up Jesus, we have to go walk on water and drown some dirty pigs that gentiles eat.
In the greek manuscripts is the phrase capitalized? The phrase is in the definite form in the OT as well.
I say
Context is our friend lupus
We know the usage from the context.
Numbers could not be talking about a specific “Son of man” like that mentioned in Daniel because that would make the verse in question nonsense.
Jesus could not be talking about a generic a generic “son of man” like the numbers passage because it would make verses like this nonsensical
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (Matthew 25:31-32)
You say:
Did your god die on the cross?
I say,
The person Jesus died on the Cross the devine nature did not cease to exist.
You say,
Did he stand on the mount of olives?
I say,
The person Jesus stood on the mount of olives. Natures don’t have feet people do.
You say,
Did he bleed?
I say,
The person Jesus bleed
Natures don’t bleed
You say,
If he did all those things he must've also have gone to the restroom.
I say,
The Devine nature did none of those things therefore it did not use the restroom.
The person Jesus did those things Jesus was one person with two natures. One firmly rooted in creation the other firmly rooted in the Godhead.
You say,
Since he was in jesus, he did whatever jesus did.
I say,
The person Jesus has two natures one human one Devine.
The Devine nature does not somehow become mixed with the human nature into some sort of half god half man.
perhaps you are confusing Jesus with the "superhuman" that anon is imagining.
I read 1MM's comment.I had a long time ago read the same argument.So I analyzed the text.
It is about the Our Father prayer in 2 of the Gospels.In the text Jesus excludes himself.
I was very surprised by 1MM's statement.I knew it was a very rare argument,the only reason I wrote an article about it for avraidire.com was because it could pop up,but I never thought it would.
The Bible does mean what it says. If we take figures of speech literally we are trying to make the Bible say what it does not mean
You say,
What if God didn't become flesh like the Bible says? Why not?
I say
That is impossible because the Bible means what it says.
You say,
How humanity get atonement: The divine must suffer and die on the cross, a human being cannot atone for all humanity. What is not assumed is not healed.
I say,
The person Jesus has two natures. The Devine Nature can’t suffer and die. You are confusing nature with person. I’m a person I can not be atoned for by the suffering and death of a nature but by the suffering and death of a person.
My human nature is not healed at the cross but must be crucified with Christ.
You said,
I guess when Jesus go to bathroom, his divinity stands outside the WC waiting...
The Devine nature does not occupy space so your statement makes no since
i think if god and all his glory came down to the earth he would be surprised watching you all fight like this and woud probably say something like "hey guys, i'm here, why dont you stop arguing and give eachother a hug, go on, dont be shy..."
FMM: Actually Jesus could do those all things but because he was greater than a "super human" could choose to for a time set aside certain abilities if he wanted to.
That's a contradiction, however you look at it. If one is fully human, one is not super human. If one is super human, one is not fully human.
the problem with believing in god is simply because believing in god is problematic. god is not an object of observation, thus any description about god is merely an untested spiritual expression. you can test and examine such expression, and write an entire defence for it whole your life, but you will never be able to confirm any of those description.
of course god is anthropomorphic because he is god only for humans, donkeys would have a super donkey as a god, and pigmi rhinos would have a super pigmi rhino as a god. this is an ancient greek idea about god.
so, debates about god are irrelevant, and insulting eachother would not make your ideas more true. however, i find that the more you argue about god, the more precise your idea about god will be, but even if you have created the ultimate idea about god, how do you confirm it? would you stand on a flat ground and ask a thunder to strike you when you are wrong? well, maybe you are right, or maybe the weather is just simply good.
so please entertain yourself in your debates, they never stop from making me laugh and cry and think about how beautiful the garden is on summer days.
oh you guys!!!
and i think that there is a certain chemistry between radical moderate and 1 more muslim, you should both meet up and get a coffee... or have you, hmmm
That's a contradiction, however you look at it. If one is fully human, one is not super human. If one is super human, one is not fully human
I say,
What are you talking about??
It’s your fantasy not mine but when you communicate it with others you are forced to use language.
lets just look at meanings of the words you chose to use
Super 1. excellent: having outstanding or excellent qualities (informal) a super idea 2. very great: exceptionally large or powerful (informal) 3. excessive: greater than what is normal
Human
1. of people: relating to, involving, or characteristic of human beings human nature human frailty
So according to Webster’s dictionary a superhuman is in fact fully human. no contradiction
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen [observed] his glory,(John 1:14)
and
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-- the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:1-3)
end quote:
no offence but given the choice of accepting the philosophical musing of an anonymous posting on the internet about what is possible or listening to the actual words of God. I’ll take God every time
fifth monarchy man, lets talk about that for a while. god is not an object of observation because you cannot contain god into a test tube, but i am not saying that your experiencing god in your life is merely fantasy. you cannot observe god because the god you see is the god who reveals himself to you. the words of god which you hear, is the words of god which he said to you. the last chapters of job deals with this.
the great idea of christianity is that god entered the world and interact with it, and thus directly influence the course of humanity, but in order to do that god had to lower himself to our understanding.
christianity with all its truth, as well as islam with all its truth are limited by a subjective experience (revelation) which they cannot confirm because neither of them can drag god down from his glory and to pick a side.
you dont offer meat to a vegetarian, you will only waste your time and annoy the vegetarian.
FMM: So according to Webster’s dictionary a superhuman is in fact fully human. no contradiction
That's just bad Christian taqiyya! You knew full well that when I mentioned the qualities of being able to shoot laser out of eyes and fly, etc. these were meant to convey the idea of a human being who was NOT fully human.
Hence, the argument stands. Since greater beings than Jesus can be conceived, Jesus is not God.
what does greater mean? an elephant is a big animal but it cannot drive a car, a human can drive a car, but it can never win a wrestling match against an elephant?
if jesus is not god, can you ask him that yourself? or did someone told you that? you could probably return this question to a christian, but a christian believes in jesus so much and that belief has helped him throughout his life. while for you whether jesus is god or not is just another topic to comment about?
why dont you let god be whatever he wants, we will all meet someday, and maybe on that day he would clear all this confusion once and for all, perhaps over wine and bread :)
FMM: Did your God bleed, suffer crucifixion, eat and drink?
Radical Moderate:
FMM said : The Devine nature does not occupy space so your statement makes no since . Do you agree that the Divinity cannot occupy space? Radical I become more and more convinced that you don't have any understanding of your theology, you are just a cultural Christian, just too proud of western culture.
Radical I have a simple answer for all your objections about Islam; never happened. Would you be satisfied with that simplicity? I call it stupidity.
Ok so the person Jesus the human person suffered for our sins, not your god. I thought a human sacrifice wasn't enough for the atonement of our sins. You said that the god part didn't bleed or any other stuff Jesus did, then it logically follows that he didn't suffer for our sins.
and i think that there is a certain chemistry between radical moderate and 1 more muslim, you should both meet up and get a coffee... or have you, hmmm
I say:
Actually, I think that's exactly what mud rake would want, but the problem is that brother 1moremuslim isn't gay. Moreover, at the moment mud rake is tied up with his butt friends Dave and Nabeel, so if you're testing the ground you'll have to wait untill Dave is finished with mud rake before you can ask him out for a snake pit adventure or "coffee" as you call it.
dear lupus, u really shouldn't use a name of a disease for your nick name. it gives a lot of confusion. i enjoy watching good religious debates and presentation. i think FMM makes very good presentations, u should also show him some class?
i love my girlfriend, so i have no need to ask rad mod for coffee. having girlfriend is also something which i could suggest to rad mod, 1mm, and of course u, dear lupus. it would really help u to develop some communication skills and common sense.
dear lupus, u really shouldn't use a name of a disease for your nick name. it gives a lot of confusion. i enjoy watching good religious debates and presentation. i think FMM makes very good presentations, u should also show him some class?
I say:
Ok, thank you for the advice.
Anon said:
i love my girlfriend, so i have no need to ask rad mod for coffee. having girlfriend is also something which i could suggest to rad mod, 1mm, and of course u, dear lupus. it would really help u to develop some communication skills and common sense.
I say:
I'm married. If you think FMM has good presentations, then I don't think u're a good judge of what constitutes comm. skills and common sense. Moreover, you made a joke about mud rake and 1moremuslim, but at the same time accuse me of having poor class for making jokes. Talk about double standard. I have delibaretly avoided to make jokes about FMM, because so far he has kept a serious tone in his discussions. I can even go so far as agreeing with you that he presents his arguments in a visually clean and tidy manner. However, that doesn't mean that his arguments are logical or very convincing. I think any one with a minimum of intelligence can see that his theology is contradictory and inconsistent. Just because you present the arguments such as:"That the person of Jesus was wholly God and wholly man so his human nature could be a “son of man” and at the exact same time his divine nature could be “not a son of man”." in a visually tidy manner doesn't mean that the content is nonsensical.
Before I respond to all the posts I would like to point out that no one here has even disputed my original post illustrating that the Islamic god is anthromorphic. I guess thats because you all concede the point?
Instead it seems you are trying to prove that the Christian God does not make sense acourding to human logic.
So even in your attacks on Chrisitanity you show that you believe that inorder for God to be worthy of worship he must be like us ie anthropomorphic.
. you cannot observe god because the god you see is the god who reveals himself to you.
I say,
This is true for everything we observe.
Everything we know about anything is only what God chooses to reveal to us.
We would be unable to know anything if God did not choose to reveal it to us.
I agree that if God chose to hide himself we would be unable to observe him. That is the whole point. God did choose to reveal himself. To pretend that this did not happen simply because some folks deny that such revelation is impossible would be dishonest.
You say,
you dont offer meat to a vegetarian, you will only waste your time and annoy the vegetarian.
I say,
When I engage in these kinds of discussions I am not offering anything to anybody and I don‘t expect to change anybodies mind. I’m just defending my Lord,
I believe that only God can save people. He will do that or not with or with out me.
It would be cool if he chose to let me play a small part in his plan to reconcile the world to himself but that is totally up to him
You knew full well that when I mentioned the qualities of being able to shoot laser out of eyes and fly, etc. these were meant to convey the idea of a human being who was NOT fully human.
I say,
I’m sorry but shooting lasers out your eyes or not has nothing to do with whether or not one is human.
While we are imagining things think of the character Cyclops in the Xmen movies. He can shoot laser beams out his eyes but no one would say he is not fully human.
You say,
Hence, the argument stands. Since greater beings than Jesus can be conceived, Jesus is not God.
I say,
You are going to have to explain to me what the heck your argument is. So far I have no clue.
"In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]
Do you agree that the Divinity cannot occupy space?
I say,
You are confusing persons with natures. Natures (divine or human) don’t occupy space.
Persons may or may not occupy space. The person Jesus occupied the body that was born of Mary.
The person Jesus had two natures one human one divine neither of which occupied space.
Lobo says,
Ok so the person Jesus the human person suffered for our sins, not your god. I thought a human sacrifice wasn't enough for the atonement of our sins.
I say
I’ll say it again slowly the person Jesus has two natures one human one Divine. So when the person Jesus suffered it was more than a human sacrifice.
Lobo said,
You said that the god part didn't bleed or any other stuff Jesus did, then it logically follows that he didn't suffer for our sins.
I say,
The person Jesus is not one part human and one part God. The person Jesus has two natures one human and one divine. I’m not sure how many ways I can say it.
Natures (Divine or human for that matter) don’t bleed. This is not rocket science
Lobo says
Then it can't be confined to the person of Jesus, which makes the idea that Jesus is god and man nonsensical.
I say,
These kinds of discussions would be much easier if you just took the time to think before you posted
You are confusing person with body.
A person may or may not occupy a body but is not “confined’ to a body. Your body will rot in the ground but the person who is lobo will countinue to exist.
Just because you present the arguments such as:"That the person of Jesus was wholly God and wholly man so his human nature could be a “son of man” and at the exact same time his divine nature could be “not a son of man”." in a visually tidy manner doesn't mean that the content is [makes sense].
I say,
Please explain how this statement is nonsensical?
It might be helpful if you use a ven diagram or convert it into a syllogism or list the logical fallacies that you believe I committed
RM says,
I'm just sitting back and learning man.
I say,
If you are learning anything it is not due to my abilities but to the Grace of God who uses the weak and foolish to shame the wise.
I would very much appreciate if you would join me in praying that God will keep me from mistakenly saying something in my haste that might make my Lord look bad.
Will do, I have wanted to jump in a few times but only to find out you already responded. I just want to encourage you, even if what you write goes in one eyball and out the other for most on this blog, it has been very edifying for me, as well as others.
Radical Moderate: "In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost..."
3 persons of one substance, power and eternity? I can think of 3 identical red balls that, in essence, are of one color-red, one shape-spherical, one identity-ball. Does that mean the 3 balls are actually one ball? Nope. Likewise, the three persons of the trinity are not one existence.
Yes you're right, I didn't fully engage with what you had posted on this thread.
Now that I have I can only conclude that your reasoning is not only seriously flawed but also contradicts your own position (assuming that you're a Bible believing Christian)...can you see why?
I'll leave you with this as I really cannot be bothered to wade through all the sophistry and spin...
He who assigns to Him (different) conditions does not believe in His oneness, nor does he who likens Him grasp His reality.
He who illustrates Him does not signify Him. He who points at Him and imagines Him does not mean Him.
Everything that is known through itself has been created, and everything that exists by virtue of other things is the effect (of a cause)
Radical I become more and more convinced that you don't have any understanding of your theology, you are just a cultural Christian, just too proud of western culture.
You are right, I have no understanding of the theology Muslims say we Christians follow.
You also wrote...
Radical I have a simple answer for all your objections about Islam; never happened. Would you be satisfied with that simplicity? I call it stupidity
Wow, that is the Muslim response, to the crucifixion NEVER HAPPENED, that’s the Muslim response to Mohamed having sex with AIsha when she was 9, NEVER HAPPENED, that’s the Muslim response to a lot of things, just deny it ever happened. So thanks for confirming and admitting YES IT IS STUPDITY.
I can only conclude that your reasoning is not only seriously flawed but also contradicts your own position (assuming that you're a Bible believing Christian)...can you see why?
I say,
No as far as I can tell my reasoning is solid and consistent with my presuppositions. If you disagree please point out the problems or inconsistencies. I would be very grateful.
as for your quote
no offence but could you explain what it means. It reads like new age gibberish to me.
Anon: "I can think of 3 identical red balls that, in essence, are of one color-red, one shape-spherical, one identity-ball. Does that mean the 3 balls are actually one ball? Nope. Likewise, the three persons of the trinity are not one existence."
Your illustration is akin to Social Trinitarianism rather than Classical Trinitarianism. As such your illustration has nothing to do with the historic Christian doctrine of the Trinity, the view that is expressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith.
FMM Try to use more brain and answer my question not a question that you have made up in your head. Who mentioned the word nature? Did the Divine person (the son) occupy space? Did your God die, bleed and suffer? That is a yes or no question. Don't come up with a straw man for diversion. Don't use bogus words like Nature and stuff, I will correct you every time you do it.
I did because when we discuss the details of God and the incarnation we must be make an effort to honor him by beining precise so as to eliminate confusion.
Often in the effort to slander God folks use equivocation and ambiguity. That has been the case since the beginning when the serpent deceived Eve by these same methods.
Because he was subtle He did not lie openly about God but used language that was technically correct but sloppy ambiguous and equivocal and therefore false yet seemed to be true.
It is important to always make an effort to clarify ourselves lest someone be mislead in the same manner.
You said,
Did the Divine person (the son) occupy space?
I say,
Because the person Jesus (the Son)had a human nature and a Devine nature he was able to occupy space and at the same time fill the entire universe. This is the miracle of the incarnation.
You say,
Did your God die, bleed and suffer?
I say,
Because Yahweh is a Trinity consisting of three persons who distinctly coexist in unity as co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial.
He can in the person Jesus suffer and die in my place while at the same time be on the throne controlling the universe in glory.
This allows also him to……..
To be perfectly Holy and at the same time grant forgiveness to unholy sinners.
To be omnipotent and at the same time understand and sympathize with my failings and weaknesses.
To be transcendent and at the same time be closer than a brother to me.
To be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:26b)
Allah can do none of these things because he is just basically a better version of us.
It is partly due to comments like this that I am loathe to get into a discussion with you.
I say,
I’m sorry you feel this way but that is honestly how your quote reads to me. I don’t understand it at all. It’s like someone just strung unrelated words together in an effort to sound profound.
You say,
But I do have one question - do you believe that God, as portrayed in the Bible, is not anthropomorphic?
I say,
As I told 1mm earlier sometimes in order to communicate with us God condescends to speak as if he were like us but this is just a way for him to make his self understood to us.
When we look at the Bible’s portrayal of the Trinitarian God taken as a whole as I’ve been discussing in this thread then I can’t see how anyone could come to the conclusion that he is anthropomorphic.
FMM: I have never seen a christian uttering BS like you: Did I ask why or How Yahweh do things? Was Yahweh a man, did he bleed and die? I told you not answer question I did not ask, but you can't do it, because you are ashamed to say , Yahweh bleed suffer and die. Your perfectly Holy Son of God, who is Yahweh became SIN. Or may be it was never happened. I can think of thousands of greatest conceivable Gods: A God like Yahweh, but he lifts up True believing Christians into heaven as soon their sin are atoned for instead of leaving them here suffering in the world for NO REASON. A God who makes women stop suffering from giving birth, since their sins were put on Jesus. Your God continue to plague Christians with diseases and famine. Yahweh made Christians die in Church collapses , flooded Haitians Christians... I can go forever. Another greatest God than Yahweh: A God that creates perfect human beings, so none of his persons had to be Sin, all of his persons remained glorified all the time. The father was not " Greater" than the Son in any time. Now FMM, you can show us your childish acrobatics. How many "never happened" would you use? and how many bogus gibberish words like Nature would you use?
He can in the person Jesus suffer and die in my place while at the same time be on the throne controlling the universe in glory.
I say:
That was exactly my point. If he could suffer in the person Jesus, he could also feel the feeling of Jesus relieving himself in the bathroom, or did he suspend his capacity to feel Jesus' feelings in the bathroom but not on the cross?
FMM said:
To be omnipotent and at the same time understand and sympathize with my failings and weaknesses.
I say:
What kind of god has to become human in order to understand and sympathize with human failings and weaknesses? Could he do these things before he became human? I haven't really discussed these specific theological issues with a christians in detail before and I must confess that I'm shocked that any intelligent human being can believe these things.
I would think Islam never fell into anthropomorphism.
Christianity, and its heretical worship of a man has done this more. But, one finds anthropomorphizing of god all over various faith traditions, not just monotheistic ones
"As I told 1mm earlier sometimes in order to communicate with us God condescends to speak as if he were like us but this is just a way for him to make his self understood to us"
And that would be the basic position that Muslim theologians would take when speaking of the Qur'an.
"When we look at the Bible’s portrayal of the Trinitarian God taken as a whole as I’ve been discussing in this thread then I can’t see how anyone could come to the conclusion that he is anthropomorphic"
What is interesting to note here is the fact that the Jews and Christians remained in a state of serious confusion over the issue of anthropomorphism well into the 12th century CE.
It was actually due to the influence of Muslim theologians and philosophers (who were of course influenced primarily by the Qur'an and Hadith) that this issue was finally resolved to a satifactory level by Moses Maimonides in his famous work - Guide for the Perplexed, which in turn greatly influenced Thomas Aquinas, one of your greatest theologians.
"I don’t understand it at all. It’s like someone just strung unrelated words together in an effort to sound profound"
I'm not at all surprised that you would take this position.
You mention the issue of forgiveness through an atoning sacrifice as the only way that God can forgive the sins of man. For you this means the death of Jesus on the cross - in other words he took the punishment so that you won't have to, right?
A hypothetical for you to consider...
What happens if a person commits a terrible sin against another human being, let us say that in this instance this hypothetical person, in their lifetime, murders someone.
It is fair to say that no one has the right to forgive or pardon that murderer except the victim, to do so would be unjust.
At some point in this person's lifetime they embrace Christianity and accept Jesus Christ as their saviour, believing that all their sins (including this serious crime) have been forgiven.
When this person dies they are inevitably brought face to face with their crime and in this case with their victim as well, who refuses to forgive them.
Instead the victim insists that the murderer has to be punished for the crime commited against them.
The victim also demands that it is unjust that this person go unpunished and that the punishment of another (no matter who) in his or her place is also unjust.
Does God have the right to forgive the moral transgression of this Christian and if so how does this relate to His Justice?
Yahweh is a Trinitarian God. That means in him are three persons each with a different role in redemption.
The role of the second person is to atone for the sins of his people by dying in our place. At the same time the other two persons each with the same devine nature continue to exist in glory.
You say,
you are ashamed to say , Yahweh bleed suffer and die.
I say,
I’m not in any way ashamed of my Lord or his gospel.
However if I was to make a statement like that with out clarifying my terms in a forum like this one where I believe that some would misunderstand me because of equivocation I would be guilty of deceiving by omission.
To make maters worse the subject of this statement is my Lord so I would be guilty of lying about God.
This is exactly the same sin that the serpent committed in the garden. I don’t intend to do that if I can help it
You say,
Your perfectly Holy Son of God, who is Yahweh became SIN.
I say,
There you go again. You make a statement in the hopes that folks will equivocate it to mean something that it does not.
A person can not become an abstract quality.
If this statement was to be understood like you apparently think it should it would like me saying
“1mm became the color green” it’s a logically nonsensical sentence.
On the other hand when we Christians say that.
“Him who knew no sin became sin so that we so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2nd cor 5:21)
We mean that the second person of the Trinity took the punishment due our sin so that in him we might receive the benefits of his righteousness. Nothing illogical or unseemly about that.
You say,
I can think of thousands of greatest conceivable Gods:
I say,
Cool lets hear about them:
You say,
A God like Yahweh, but he lifts up True believing Christians into heaven as soon their sin are atoned for instead of leaving them here suffering in the world for NO REASON.
I say,
Such a god would be unholy because he allowed sin to go unpunished
You say,
A God who makes women stop suffering from giving birth, since their sins were put on Jesus.
I say,
Such a God would be unloving since he did not allow his chosen people the unsurpassed honor of participating in the fellowship of his sufferings.
you say,
Your God continue to plague Christians with diseases and famine. Yahweh made Christians die in Church collapses , flooded Haitians Christians... I can go forever.
I say,
Yes and by that act of Gods kindness we get to play a small part in the great project that is the reconciliation of the world. How cool is that
you say,
A God that creates perfect human beings, so none of his persons had to be Sin, all of his persons remained glorified all the time.
I say,
I god like that would be unable to demonstrate his attributes of Grace and wrath to his creation and would be therefore less than omnipotent.
You say,
The father was not " Greater" than the Son in any time.
I say
A god like that would be unable to know what it was like to be under athourity and therefore would be less than omniscient
Do you have any imaginary Gods that are actually greater than Yahweh or they all like these puny week imperfect god wannabes?
If he could suffer in the person Jesus, he could also feel the feeling of Jesus relieving himself in the bathroom, or did he suspend his capacity to feel Jesus' feelings in the bathroom but not on the cross?
I say,
I never said God was incapable of certain experiences That is Allah’s problem. Yehew is omnipotent and omniscient.
What I said was the divine nature of the person Jesus never did these things.
You say,
What kind of god has to become human in order to understand and sympathize with human failings and weaknesses?
I say,
Any kind. It is impossible to truly know what it is like to be somthing unless you have experienced it.
This is just logic 101
You said,
Could he do these things before he became human?
I say,
God exists outside of our universe so asking what he thought in the time before the incarnation is a meaningless question
That is why we can speak of Jesus being crucified before the foundation of the world.
you say,
I must confess that I'm shocked that any intelligent human being can believe these things.
The bible says,
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
It might be a good idea for you to look for somthing that I am saying that violates logic or schripture. instead of concentrating on it’s emotional impact
If what I was saying to you was not a shock to you it would let me know that I was not making myself clear.
quote:
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
And that would be the basic position that Muslim theologians would take when speaking of the Qur'an.
I say,
The difference would be that not only does your God speak like us in order to be understood, he acts and thinks like us as well as I demonstrated in my first post
You say,
What is interesting to note here is the fact that the Jews and Christians remained in a state of serious confusion over the issue of anthropomorphism well into the 12th century CE.
I say,
Again you are going to have to be more specific I have no idea what you are talking about.
You say,
It was actually due to the influence of Muslim theologians and philosophers (who were of course influenced primarily by the Qur'an and Hadith) that this issue was finally resolved to a satifactory level by Moses Maimonides in his famous work - Guide for the Perplexed, which in turn greatly influenced Thomas Aquinas, one of your greatest theologians.
I say,
Of course you know that I completely disagree with this reading of history. How about some evidence instead of just making claims
You say,
I'm not at all surprised that you would take this position.
I say,
What position? I’m not taking a position I’m asking you to explain yourself so I can understand what the heck you are talking about
The victim also demands that it is unjust that this person go unpunished and that the punishment of another (no matter who) in his or her place is also unjust.
Does God have the right to forgive the moral transgression of this Christian and if so how does this relate to His Justice?
I say
By definition a person can not be a Christian and at the same time believe it is unjust for Christ to atone for sins.
So the premise of your question is illogical on it’s face. If you can rephrase it in a way that does not violate the law of non contradiction I will be happy to answer it for you
I never said God was incapable of certain experiences That is Allah’s problem. Yehew is omnipotent and omniscient.
FMM said Any kind. It is impossible to truly know what it is like to be somthing unless you have experienced it.
I say:
This must be like the thousand time you contradict yourself while explaining the incarnation. Is it impossible for your god to "truly know what it is like to be somthing unless you have experienced it"
FMM said:
It might be a good idea for you to look for somthing that I am saying that violates logic or schripture. instead of concentrating on it’s emotional impact
I say: A contradiction violates logic and there are plenty of it in your reasoning about the incarnation.
Is it impossible for your god to "truly know what it is like to be somthing unless you have experienced it"
I say
It is not just impossible for my God it is impossible for anyone period.
I'm not talking about knowledge of facts I'm talking about knowledge of familiarity.
Thake a look at Webster’s fifth dictionary definition
Quote:
Know….
5. To be no stranger to; to be familiar. This man is well known to us.
End quote,
You can’t logically say I know lobo but I’ve never actually met him.
You can say you know about lobo if you’ve studied his habits and appearance. But you can’t say you know him until you have actually experienced his presence.
This is not a controversial position it is a self evident truth once you understand the meanings of the words in the statement.
You say,
A contradiction violates logic and there are plenty of it in your reasoning about the incarnation.
I say,
Please show me where I have made a contradiction. I would be very grateful
An example of contradiction would look something like this
A)This very ball is white B) This very ball is black
Or
A) this exact point of space a is hot B) this exact point of space is not hot
Or a favorite of mine
A)Allah is will not allow sin to go unpunished b) Allah does not to punish all sin.
That’s the sort of thing I’m looking for Thanks in advance
"Of course you know that I completely disagree with this reading of history"
Of course you would because you are quite clearly a cherry picker.
I really do not need to be any more specific on this matter, after all Maimonides wrote this particular tract on, amongst many other things, anthropomorphism precisely because people were...wait for it...PERPLEXED! - The name kinda gives it away doesn't it ;)
And it is no secret that his works highly influenced Christian theologians as did Muslim scholars such as Al-Ghazali, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd - go look at any reputable Jewish historian and you will see that the golden age of Jewish philosophy and theology was a direct result of the Islamic golden age - something which many of your greatest scholars also benefitted from.
This isn't revisionist history FMM - just the facts.
"By definition a person can not be a Christian and at the same time believe it is unjust for Christ to atone for sins.
So the premise of your question is illogical on it’s face. If you can rephrase it in a way that does not violate the law of non contradiction I will be happy to answer it for you"
Who said anything about the victim being a Christian? Nothing illogical in my post - you just need to read with a little more rigor.
I really do not need to be any more specific on this matter, after all Maimonides wrote this particular tract on, amongst many other things, anthropomorphism precisely because people were...wait for it...PERPLEXED! - The name kinda gives it away doesn't it ;)
I say,
Are you saying a Jewish philosopher wrote a tract and this somehow proves that Christians worship an anthropometric God? I’m sorry but I just don’t follow you.
Christians were worshiping a Trinatarian Yahweh long before Maimonides or Muhammad or Mickey mouse came one the scene.
If you think Yahweh is like us come on and explain yourself.
You say,
Who said anything about the victim being a Christian?
I say,
I apologize, I assumed that you understood that since the Father is perfectly Holy he can not look upon sin therefore no unforgiven sinner will ever be able to stand in his presence at the judgment and accuse him of injustice.
Instead those who are not in Christ will only experience God’s righteous judgment and wrath.
Since I’m in a hurry………..
Lets suspend logic and pretend that the situation in your question could actually happen.
Suppose that a unrepentant God hateing rebel would be allowed to question the righteousness of the almighty.
In such a case God would probably explain that the person who committed the crime no longer exists because he has been crucified with Christ in punishment for the crimes he committed.
He would probably use texts like this to emphasize his point
Quote:
We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, (Romans 6:6b)
Or
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)
End quote:
He would probably explain that the putting to death of the deeds of the flesh is nessary before one can experience eternal life.
Quote:
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:13)
End Quote
And he would probaly explain that the process of putting to death the old man is a difficult and painful thing that can in the end be compared to passing through a fire
Quote:
each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)
End quote:
Finally I suppose he would point out that questioning God is the very sin that got Adam and Eve in trouble.
And point out that what he thought was a senceless undeserved murder at the hands of a man was actually part of the punishment his sins deserved. Metered out by the holy sovereign creator of the universe
quote:
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:1-5)
"Are you saying a Jewish philosopher wrote a tract and this somehow proves that Christians worship an anthropometric God?"
Not sure about anthropometric, but what I am saying is that it is a well known historical fact that Christians, well into the middle ages, did indeed believe God to be corporeal and anthropomorphic.
"Christians were worshiping a Trinatarian Yahweh long before Maimonides or Muhammad or Mickey mouse came one the scene"
Oh dear, don't know your history too well huh. Well let me enlighten you.
Towards the end of the middle ages there were serious debates raging amongst Christians and Jews about these issues that, notwithstanding the more sophisticated (and very rare) speculations of earlier neoplatonist thinkers like Augustine, were, more or less, put to bed by this famous work by Maimonides (Guide for the Perplexed).
This was, whether you like it or not, a direct result of his exposure to Muslim philosophers who, under the influence of the Qur'an, had already tackled this problem.
What I'm ultimately saying is that your theology developed under the influence of Islamic thinkers - until that point the majority of lay Christians did worship an anthropomorphic deity, the fact that you don't anymore is due to Islam - what does that tell you?
I'll refute your earlier confused attempts at proving that Allah (swt) is anthropomorhic later on as I am a bit busy at the moment. Then we will move on to the other issues that I have highlighted inshAllah.
In the Name of Allah The Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
The praise is for Allah and may the peace and blessings be on His final slave and messenger.
Its just amazing how these people who believe that Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is Allah incarnate accuse us Muslims of being anthropomorphists. I dont think its nessesary to mention/quote every mistake these Christians has done here and spread further confusion. Som things that are mentioned is about Allahs Love, Forgivness and Allah decieving. Our shaykh Bin Baz mentions som important principals in this regard.
"From Eemaan (faith) in Allaah is to have eemaan in those of His Asmaa'ul-Husnaa (Beautiful names) and Sifaatul-Ulyaa (Lofty Attributes) that occur in His Great Book and that have been affirmed by His trustworthy Messenger (sallallaahu `alaihi wasallam) -without tahreef (distorting the wording or the meaning), tateel (divesting or denying the Attributes), takyeef(asking how) or tamtheel (resembling Allaah to any of His creation). Rather,it is obligatory to leave them as they came, without takyeef (asking how) or tamtheel (resembling Allaah to any of His creation). Along with this, it is also obligatory to have eemaan in the meaning that Allaah-the Mighty and Majestic-has been described with, in a way which befits Him: without resembling Him to His creation in any of His attributes.
Allaah-the Most High -says:
"There is nothing like unto Him,and He is the All-Hearing,the All-seeing"
Allaah -the Mighty and Majestic -also says:
"And do not put forward any similitudes for Allaah.Indeed,Allaah knows and you do not know"
So we know now that there is no likness to the creation when a attribute of Allah is mentioned in Islam. As soon as you say "God is like..." You are not talking about Allah anymore and you yourself have likened God to the creation and thats your problem.
Then this Christian says that it is impossible for Allah to know something because his (this Christian) logic and the dictionary says something else. Allah Knows everyting and does not have to experience something to know it, as we do. This is likening Allahs knowledge to His creation.
Than these Christians try to explained their "logical" belief and the real confusion starts:
"God is not a man" and Jesus is a man. "God is not the son of man" and Jesus is the son of man. Then he goes on to say that Jesus is God? And calls it scriptural and logic audhobillah. Clear contradiction.
Then he tries to clarify it by saying that Jesus is wolly God and wholly man. A clear contradiction to their own scripture and their belief. Its just a mess that will not convince anyone with sound intellect, even more so the muslim that has the correct belief in Allah the Most High.
May Allah the Most High guide these Christians to the clarity of islam amin.
And Allah knows Best.
The praise is for Allah and may the peace and blessings be on our beloved rasul.
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
"The words of Humans are subject to corruption and eventually are lost. Allah word’s (the gospel and torah) are subject to corruption and eventually are lost"
Could you quote the surah you are referring to here. But, as an aside, by your 'logic' I could say that the God of the Bible is anthropomorhic, after all...
Humans contradict themselves. The Christian God contradicts Himself (in numerous places).
"Humans abrogate and rescind and their laws. Allah abrogates and rescinds his laws"
So that wouldn't be anything at all like your belief in an old testament and a new testament then?
"Humans sometimes deceive people Allah sometimes deceives people"
11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2 - 11-12
I wonder what incomprehensible verbal gymnastics you will perform to explain this one?
Let me try and focus your thoughts a little. Like you I will be busy for a while
You said,
Towards the end of the middle ages there were serious debates raging amongst Christians and Jews
I say,
Philosophical debates have zero to do with the issue at hand. In the 18th century there was a debate among philosophers about whether or not miracles were possible. At no point in time did Yahweh loose the ability to perform miracles.
You said:
What I'm ultimately saying is that your theology developed under the influence of Islamic thinkers - until that point the majority of lay Christians did worship an anthropomorphic deity, the fact that you don't anymore is due to Islam - what does that tell you?
I say,
I disagree with your claim for three simple reasons,
1) If a person worships an anthropomorphic deity he is not a Christian period no matter what he calls himself.
2) It is impossible for Muslims who do worship a deity that is anthropomorphic to school Christians who do not in these maters.
3) Philosophy is not the determiner of Christian belief but only their servant.
If you still wish to hold to your claim please present evidence that early Christian Scripture or Creeds were changed or altered in any way as a result of Muslim influence.
"And do not put forward any similitudes for Allaah.Indeed,Allaah knows and you do not know"
So we know now that there is no likness to the creation when a attribute of Allah is mentioned in Islam. As soon as you say "God is like..." You are not talking about Allah anymore and you yourself have likened God to the creation and thats your problem.
I say,
Again Allah claims to be different yet demonstrates he is not. If you want to prove that Allah is not like us you need to provide evidence from what he does not from what he says
Alexander said,
"God is not a man" and Jesus is a man. "God is not the son of man" and Jesus is the son of man. Then he goes on to say that Jesus is God? And calls it scriptural and logic audhobillah. Clear contradiction.
I say,
The person Jesus has two natures one human and one divine. Therefore he can be fully human and at the same time fully God.
You may not like this statement but it is logically valid.
You say,
Allah Knows everyting and does not have to experience something to know it, as we do. This is likening Allahs knowledge to His creation.
I say,
No it’s not it just understanding what we mean when we say knowledge. Knowledge in the sense we are discussing is experience.
"The words of Humans are subject to corruption and eventually are lost. Allah word’s (the gospel and torah) are subject to corruption and eventually are lost"
Could you quote the surah you are referring to here.
I say,
I know of no Muslim that believes we have the entire uncorrupted Torah and Gospel today. Are you making news here by saying that we do?
Abdul said,
"Humans abrogate and rescind and their laws. Allah abrogates and rescinds his laws"
So that wouldn't be anything at all like your belief in an old testament and a new testament then?
I say,
Not at all
The Old Testament law is still the valid law for the citizen of theocratic kingdom of Israel. There was never an abrogation of any kind.
That old covenant kingdom passed away when the Kingdom of God was instituted. The laws of the old covenant remained unchanged.
You said,
2 Thessalonians 2 - 11-12
I wonder what incomprehensible verbal gymnastics you will perform to explain this one?
I say,
No verbal gymnastics just context
Quote:
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, (2 Thessalonians 2:9-11)
End quote:
People refused to believe the truth God confirmed them in their state of rebellion. The text in context plainly says they were already deceived before God did anything.
"Philosophical debates have zero to do with the issue at hand"
Au contraire my confused friend, it has everything to do with it. The fact that such debates were raging was because the majority of Christians and Jews did believe in an anthropomorphic and corporeal deity - just because you are anachronistically shoving your beliefs back onto these earliest Christians (and committing the no true scotsman fallacy in the process) does not make my point any less valid.
"It is impossible for Muslims who do worship a deity that is anthropomorphic to school Christians who do not in these maters"
I am afraid that you are wrong about this. You have come to a concept of a non-anthropomorpic God through the Muslim philosophers who studied the Qur'an and inturn influenced your later theologians - go read a little bit of history (objectively) and you will see this quite clearly.
You have come to a concept of a non-anthropomorpic God through the Muslim philosophers who studied the Qur'an and inturn influenced your later theologians
I say,
prove it.
Show me something I believe about God that is not based on Scripture but instead based on the Quran.
Valid evidence would look something like this
The Bible says X Because of Islam FMM believes not X
If you can’t do that we are at an impasse.
You say,
committing the no true scotsman fallacy in the process
I say,
It’s not the no true Scotsman fallacy to say that in order to be Christian you must worship the Christian God
That is what it means to be Christian.
If we are going to call a person who worships an antichristian God Christian then we might as well throw out language altogether.
Humans contradict themselves. The Christian God contradicts Himself (in numerous places).
I say,
Please show me these contradictions. I know of none in the Bible.
I only ask you offer the text the same benefit of the doubt that you afford the Quran.
There are perhaps a few places in the Bible that might appear to be contradictory to a biased observer who refuses to let the Scripture interpret itself.
If the same approach is used on the Quran it comes out looking much worse than the Christian scripture in this regard.
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-11)
Sending someone a delusion, so that they wind up believing something false is deceitful.
Simple as.
"Please show me these contradictions. I know of none in the Bible"
Fifth Monarchy Man’s "Deceit" 1/ If God doesn’t experience something, then he doesn’t know, so he is NOT omniscient. Muslim asks: Yahweh didn’t experience being eaten by Lion, so he doesn’t know what it is like to be eaten by Lion, so he is omniscient. FMM responds: 2/ I'm not talking about knowledge of facts I'm talking about knowledge of familiarity.
FMM is either deceiving himself, or he is mentally damaged. I ask every Muslim just to ignore him.
I must say that I agree. I reached that conclusion recently after discussing with him in a different thread. I must confess that I've not been consistent and have engaged him since. People like FMM etc might be quite eloquent but when you read what they say it becomes apparent that their beliefs are irrational. I'm not saying that all Christians are like that. For instance, many mainstream Christians are honest about their theology and say that it is a mystery, take it or leave it. People like FMM try to defend their theology and issues like the inerrancy of the Bible in a language that obviously is riddled with contradictions. When you point that out they simply say where's the contradiction? You show them the contradiction, they produce another contradiction to resolve the first one ad infinitum. I think we're just wasting our time trying to discuss with these people. From now on I will ignore people like Radmod, FMM, and Minoria inshallah.
Sending someone a delusion, so that they wind up believing something false is deceitful.
I say,
Actually they don’t wind up believing something false they already believed something false because they refused to love the truth (verse 10). Then because of their actions God in judgment sends them a delusion (verse 11).
You can’t deceive someone who is already willfully deceived .
It’s not deceitful for God to Judge folks who refuse to love the truth with a delusion.
The context shows that these rebels would remain self deceived regardless.
What has changed is they are now deprived of the Grace they had already rejected
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche, in which there is a lamp, the lamp is enclosed in crystal, the crystal is of a starlike brilliance, it is lit with the olive oil from a blessed olive tree which is neither eastern nor western, its very oil would almost be luminous though no fire touched it - as though all the means of increasing Light upon Light are provided -Allah guides to His Light whom He pleases. Allah cites such parables to make His message clear to the people; and Allah has knowledge of everything. (An Nur : 35)
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8 : 12)
islam anc christianity bring light to the world, when 2 lights are shining brightly together, there should be no more darkness in the world.
Yahweh didn’t experience being eaten by Lion, so he doesn’t know what it is like to be eaten by Lion, so he is omniscient.
I say,
1) because of the actions of the Jesus the Holy Spirit now dwells in the heart of believers even those believers that have been eaten by lions
2) knowledge does not work that way
Once I know that 5+2=7 The principle of inference allows me to also know that 345605+2=35607
I do not need to know how every conceivable weakness feels to know what it is like to weak.
1mm says,
FMM is either deceiving himself, or he is mentally damaged.
I say,
It does not surprise me that you accuse me of being out of my mind.
Folks have been accusing people who bring the Gospel of that since the very beginning.
quote:
And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, "He is out of his mind." (Mark 3:21)
end quote:
I will wear the charge as a badge of honor.
quote;
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matthew 5:11-12)
When you point that out they simply say where's the contradiction? You show them the contradiction, they produce another contradiction to resolve the first one ad infinitum.
I say,
If that were true it seems to me that you would want to engage with me just so that the superiority of Islam would be manifest.
I find it strange that you want to ignore the “eloquent but irrational” guy and instead spend your time trading barbs with the folks you believe to be islomophobic bigots.
You say,
From now on I will ignore people like Radmod, FMM, and Minoria inshallah.
That’s your choice
If God chooses to show you mercy let me know. I would love to continue to tell you about my Lord.
"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." Luke 9:50
"Good and evil are not equal. Repel (evil) with what is best, and you will see that the one you had mutual enmity with him will turn as if he were a close friend." (41:34)
the enemies of christianity and islam is human suffering, why argue when we can work together. evil prevails where the good ones are fighting among themselves.
I am no fan of PZ Myers but
ReplyDeleteI can’t believe this is even an issue.
Of course the god of Islam is Anthropomorphic.
Humans are monopersonal Allah is monopersonal
Human's holiness is such that they can forgive with out an atoning sacrifice Allah holiness is such that he can forgive without an atoning sacrifice.
Humans require the existence of another being to experience love Allah requires the existance of another being to experience love
The words of Humans are subject to corruption and eventually are lost. Allah word’s (the gospel and torah) are subject to corruption and eventually are lost.
Humans abrogate and rescind and their laws. Allah abrogates and rescinds his laws.
Humans sometimes deceive people Allah sometimes deceives people
I could go on but you get the point. The Muslim God is just a more powerful version of man..
The text in the video only serves to emphasize the point. Being just like a man yet claiming to be somehow different is exactly the sort of thing that men do.
"Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god--
(Ezekiel 28:2)
who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
(2 Thessalonians 2:4)
Contrastthis picture with the Christian God who is wholy other.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Isaiah 55:8-9)
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.
(Isaiah 40:28)
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
(Romans 11:33-36)
"Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven--what can you do? Deeper than Sheol--what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth and broader than the sea.
(Job 11:7-9)
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
(Numbers 23:19)
nuff said:
Peace
Fifth Monarchy Man: Contrast this picture with the Christian God who is wholy other.
ReplyDeleteLet's see. God is the greatest being conceivable. Is Jesus the greatest being conceivable? Nope. I can easily think of many beings that surpass Jesus in his divinity. As such, Jesus is not God.
FMM quoted:
ReplyDeleteGod is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
(Numbers 23:19)
I say:
LOL! you've just refuted the heresy that Jesus is God. Didn't Jesus refer to himself as son of man?
Sorry, maybe he changed his mind around 0 AD or later depending on your particular brand of polytheism and became both man and son of man. So what is it? Does he change his mind or not?
You have the audacity to say that God of Islam, the only God is anthropomorphic, while you worship a god that ate, slept and went to the restroom.
Oh no not again, Snowman weren't you Muslims embarrased enough by this man. Please Muslism if you say you love God please for the love of that God do not debate them. You emabrasses us all when you do.
ReplyDeleteFMM:
ReplyDeleteYou have to blame Jesus for teaching a prayer that is Explicitly asking God to forgive our debt like WE forgive our debtors.
Can you please comment on how Yahweh, when he discovered the ugly human being he created, he was filled with regrets and he wished that he would have never made such failure.
The generated God Jesus, was equal with God then he emptied himself!!! Emtied himself from What? And how can he still be God if he emptied himself? What a mess.
On now on another note, it look like you guys might be right, there might be something to bigotry and Islamaphobes.
ReplyDeleteLets see if any Muslim would like to finish this sentence.
"A FAMILY of albino Muslims in Coventry are being terrorised by bigots...."
I wonder who are these bigots????
Any Muslim care to answer?
Anon said,
ReplyDelete. I can easily think of many beings that surpass Jesus in his divinity. As such, Jesus is not God.
I say,
Please share some of them with us so we can evaluate the validity of your imagination.
lupus says,
you've just refuted the heresy that Jesus is God. Didn't Jesus refer to himself as son of man?
I say,
Come on man you are better than this.
Of course you know
1) That “a son of man” is a different phrase than “the Son of Man” . the former a statement describing a person born of the linage of Adam the latter describing a divine being who has
Quote:
dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:14)
End quote:
2) That the verse says that “God is not a man” not “God cannot be a man”
3) That the person of Jesus was wholly God and wholly man so his human nature could be a “son of man” and at the exact same time his divine nature could be “not a son of man”.
You say,
So what is it? Does he change his mind or not?
I say,
Not !!!!!!!
You say,
You have the audacity to say that God of Islam, the only God is anthropomorphic, while you worship a god that ate, slept and went to the restroom.
I say,
My God does none of those things.
Jesus’ divine nature did not eat sleep or use the restroom. Where do you get these strange ideas?
Peace
FMM: Please share some of them with us so we can evaluate the validity of your imagination.....
ReplyDeleteI was going to say that I can think of a deity that does not "eat sleep or use the bathroom" but then I saw your response to a brother:
"Jesus’ divine nature did not eat sleep or use the restroom."
Okay, I can think of a being who like Jesus had two natures, one human and one divine, except that he had a super human nature to the extent that he could fly, shoot laser out of his eyes, crush mountains with one blow, and so forth. Not only is such a being awesome, he is conceivably greater than Jesus.
FMM, remember Jesus was fully divine and fully human. If he was fully human, he couldn't "fly, shoot laser out of his eyes, crush mountains with one blow, and so forth". Remember this before you respond to my argument.
ReplyDeleteFMM said:
ReplyDeleteThat “a son of man” is a different phrase than “the Son of Man” . the former a statement describing a person born of the linage of Adam the latter describing a divine being who has
I say:
In the greek manuscripts is the phrase capitalized? The phrase is in the definite form in the OT as well.
That the person of Jesus was wholly God and wholly man so his human nature could be a “son of man” and at the exact same time his divine nature could be “not a son of man”.
My God does none of those things.
Jesus’ divine nature did not eat sleep or use the restroom. Where do you get these strange ideas?
I say:
Did your god die on the cross? Did he stand on the mount of olives? Did he bleed? If he did all those things he must've also have gone to the restroom. Since he was in jesus, he did whatever jesus did.
1mm says,
ReplyDeleteYou have to blame Jesus for teaching a prayer that is Explicitly asking God to forgive our debt like WE forgive our debtors.
I say,
The verse does not say “like” we forgive our debtors it says "AS"
quote:
and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
(Matthew 6:12)
end quote:
there is a huge difference
You say,
Can you please comment on how Yahweh, when he discovered the ugly human being he created, he was filled with regrets and he wished that he would have never made such failure.
I say,
Sure I can. This event never happened. End of comment.
You are for some reason confusing a figure of speech called condescension with an actual description of the divine thought process and attempting to do exactly what the scripture’s say is impossible to do understand the mind of God.
"For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?"
(1 Corinthians 2:16a)
You say,
The generated God Jesus, was equal with God then he emptied himself!!! Emtied himself from What?
I say,
The Glory he had before the world existed (John 17:5)
1mm
And how can he still be God if he emptied himself?
I say,
Easy
Yahweh unlike Allah is omnipotent. he can do things that would be impossible for humans to do. He can temporarily empty himself without ceasing to be who he is.
That is because he is God amd not a man.
Peace
FMM
ReplyDeleteTHis has got to be the best reponse to these knuckle heads ever.
"I say,
Sure I can. This event never happened. End of comment."
Classic, the sad part is it will go way over there heads.
annon said,
ReplyDeleteOkay, I can think of a being who like Jesus had two natures, one human and one divine, except that he had a super human nature to the extent that he could fly, shoot laser out of his eyes, crush mountains with one blow, and so forth.
I say,
Jesus is many times greater than such a being he can fly shoot laser out his eyes crush mountains and so forth and at the same time sympathize with our weakness (Hebrews 4:15)
You say,
If he was fully human, he couldn't "fly, shoot laser out of his eyes, crush mountains with one blow, and so forth". Remember this before you respond to my argument.
I say,
Actually Jesus could do those all things but because he was greater than a "super human" could choose to for a time set aside certain abilities if he wanted to.
Peace
PS
I find it very telling that when you Imagine a great being you think of a “Super” human. You just proved my point for me
FMM:
ReplyDeleteActually Jesus could do those all things but because he was greater than a "super human" could choose to for a time set aside certain abilities if he wanted to.
I say:
Can he do anything and everything?
Radical Moderate agrees that Yahweh never repented from creating man, as the Bible say. The Bible doesn't mean what it says. What if God didn't become flesh like the Bible says? Why not?
ReplyDeleteChristian the old game, switch gears as they face different problem.
How humanity get atonement: The divine must suffer and die on the cross, a human being cannot atone for all humanity. What is not assumed is not healed.
Muslim: So the Divinity ate and went to bathroom? Christian: No the divinity does not do what human do.
I guess when Jesus go to bathroom, his divinity stands outside the WC waiting... Have you finished? Harry up Jesus, we have to go walk on water and drown some dirty pigs that gentiles eat.
lupus says:
ReplyDeleteIn the greek manuscripts is the phrase capitalized? The phrase is in the definite form in the OT as well.
I say
Context is our friend lupus
We know the usage from the context.
Numbers could not be talking about a specific “Son of man” like that mentioned in Daniel because that would make the verse in question nonsense.
Jesus could not be talking about a generic a generic “son of man” like the numbers passage because it would make verses like this nonsensical
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
(Matthew 25:31-32)
You say:
Did your god die on the cross?
I say,
The person Jesus died on the Cross the devine nature did not cease to exist.
You say,
Did he stand on the mount of olives?
I say,
The person Jesus stood on the mount of olives. Natures don’t have feet people do.
You say,
Did he bleed?
I say,
The person Jesus bleed
Natures don’t bleed
You say,
If he did all those things he must've also have gone to the restroom.
I say,
The Devine nature did none of those things therefore it did not use the restroom.
The person Jesus did those things Jesus was one person with two natures. One firmly rooted in creation the other firmly rooted in the Godhead.
You say,
Since he was in jesus, he did whatever jesus did.
I say,
The person Jesus has two natures one human one Devine.
The Devine nature does not somehow become mixed with the human nature into some sort of half god half man.
perhaps you are confusing Jesus with the "superhuman" that anon is imagining.
Peace
I read 1MM's comment.I had a long time ago read the same argument.So I analyzed the text.
ReplyDeleteIt is about the Our Father prayer in 2 of the Gospels.In the text Jesus excludes himself.
I was very surprised by 1MM's statement.I knew it was a very rare argument,the only reason I wrote an article about it for avraidire.com was because it could pop up,but I never thought it would.
Now it has.
The prayer appears in MATT and LUKE.Here is the article
ReplyDeletehttp://www.avraidire.com/2011/05/jesus-a-t-il-dit-quil-a-peche-comme-nous/
It can be translated using GOOGLE TRANSLATE
http://translate.google.com/
1mm,
ReplyDeleteThe Bible doesn't mean what it says.
I say,
The Bible does mean what it says. If we take figures of speech literally we are trying to make the Bible say what it does not mean
You say,
What if God didn't become flesh like the Bible says? Why not?
I say
That is impossible because the Bible means what it says.
You say,
How humanity get atonement: The divine must suffer and die on the cross, a human being cannot atone for all humanity. What is not assumed is not healed.
I say,
The person Jesus has two natures. The Devine Nature can’t suffer and die. You are confusing nature with person. I’m a person I can not be atoned for by the suffering and death of a nature but by the suffering and death of a person.
My human nature is not healed at the cross but must be crucified with Christ.
You said,
I guess when Jesus go to bathroom, his divinity stands outside the WC waiting...
The Devine nature does not occupy space so your statement makes no since
Peace
FMM
ReplyDeleteDid I not say that the simplicity of your statement would go way over their heads LOL
1milimeter thanks for proving me right AGAIN.
1milimeter its not that I'm always right, its just that your always WRONG.
i think if god and all his glory came down to the earth he would be surprised watching you all fight like this and woud probably say something like "hey guys, i'm here, why dont you stop arguing and give eachother a hug, go on, dont be shy..."
ReplyDeleteFMM: Actually Jesus could do those all things but because he was greater than a "super human" could choose to for a time set aside certain abilities if he wanted to.
ReplyDeleteThat's a contradiction, however you look at it. If one is fully human, one is not super human. If one is super human, one is not fully human.
the problem with believing in god is simply because believing in god is problematic. god is not an object of observation, thus any description about god is merely an untested spiritual expression. you can test and examine such expression, and write an entire defence for it whole your life, but you will never be able to confirm any of those description.
ReplyDeleteof course god is anthropomorphic because he is god only for humans, donkeys would have a super donkey as a god, and pigmi rhinos would have a super pigmi rhino as a god. this is an ancient greek idea about god.
so, debates about god are irrelevant, and insulting eachother would not make your ideas more true. however, i find that the more you argue about god, the more precise your idea about god will be, but even if you have created the ultimate idea about god, how do you confirm it? would you stand on a flat ground and ask a thunder to strike you when you are wrong? well, maybe you are right, or maybe the weather is just simply good.
so please entertain yourself in your debates, they never stop from making me laugh and cry and think about how beautiful the garden is on summer days.
oh you guys!!!
and i think that there is a certain chemistry between radical moderate and 1 more muslim, you should both meet up and get a coffee... or have you, hmmm
Annon said,
ReplyDeleteThat's a contradiction, however you look at it. If one is fully human, one is not super human. If one is super human, one is not fully human
I say,
What are you talking about??
It’s your fantasy not mine but when you communicate it with others you are forced to use language.
lets just look at meanings of the words you chose to use
Super
1. excellent: having outstanding or excellent qualities (informal) a super idea
2. very great: exceptionally large or powerful (informal)
3. excessive: greater than what is normal
Human
1. of people: relating to, involving, or characteristic of human beings human nature human frailty
So according to Webster’s dictionary a superhuman is in fact fully human. no contradiction
peace
the other annon said;
ReplyDeletegod is not an object of observation,
to the contary Bible says,
quote:
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen [observed] his glory,(John 1:14)
and
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-- the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
(1 John 1:1-3)
end quote:
no offence but given the choice of accepting the philosophical musing of an anonymous posting on the internet about what is possible or listening to the actual words of God. I’ll take God every time
peace
fifth monarchy man, lets talk about that for a while. god is not an object of observation because you cannot contain god into a test tube, but i am not saying that your experiencing god in your life is merely fantasy. you cannot observe god because the god you see is the god who reveals himself to you. the words of god which you hear, is the words of god which he said to you. the last chapters of job deals with this.
ReplyDeletethe great idea of christianity is that god entered the world and interact with it, and thus directly influence the course of humanity, but in order to do that god had to lower himself to our understanding.
christianity with all its truth, as well as islam with all its truth are limited by a subjective experience (revelation) which they cannot confirm because neither of them can drag god down from his glory and to pick a side.
you dont offer meat to a vegetarian, you will only waste your time and annoy the vegetarian.
FMM: So according to Webster’s dictionary a superhuman is in fact fully human. no contradiction
ReplyDeleteThat's just bad Christian taqiyya! You knew full well that when I mentioned the qualities of being able to shoot laser out of eyes and fly, etc. these were meant to convey the idea of a human being who was NOT fully human.
Hence, the argument stands. Since greater beings than Jesus can be conceived, Jesus is not God.
anon:
ReplyDeletewhat does greater mean? an elephant is a big animal but it cannot drive a car, a human can drive a car, but it can never win a wrestling match against an elephant?
if jesus is not god, can you ask him that yourself? or did someone told you that? you could probably return this question to a christian, but a christian believes in jesus so much and that belief has helped him throughout his life. while for you whether jesus is god or not is just another topic to comment about?
why dont you let god be whatever he wants, we will all meet someday, and maybe on that day he would clear all this confusion once and for all, perhaps over wine and bread :)
FMM:
ReplyDeleteDid your God bleed, suffer crucifixion, eat and drink?
Radical Moderate:
FMM said : The Devine nature does not occupy space so your statement makes no since .
Do you agree that the Divinity cannot occupy space?
Radical I become more and more convinced that you don't have any understanding of your theology, you are just a cultural Christian, just too proud of western culture.
Radical I have a simple answer for all your objections about Islam; never happened. Would you be satisfied with that simplicity? I call it stupidity.
FMM said:
ReplyDeleteThe person Jesus bleed
I say:
Ok so the person Jesus the human person suffered for our sins, not your god. I thought a human sacrifice wasn't enough for the atonement of our sins. You said that the god part didn't bleed or any other stuff Jesus did, then it logically follows that he didn't suffer for our sins.
FMM said:
ReplyDeleteThe Devine nature does not occupy space so your statement makes no since
I say:
Then it can't be confined to the person of Jesus, which makes the idea that Jesus is god and man nonsensical.
Anon said:
ReplyDeleteand i think that there is a certain chemistry between radical moderate and 1 more muslim, you should both meet up and get a coffee... or have you, hmmm
I say:
Actually, I think that's exactly what mud rake would want, but the problem is that brother 1moremuslim isn't gay. Moreover, at the moment mud rake is tied up with his butt friends Dave and Nabeel, so if you're testing the ground you'll have to wait untill Dave is finished with mud rake before you can ask him out for a snake pit adventure or "coffee" as you call it.
dear lupus, u really shouldn't use a name of a disease for your nick name. it gives a lot of confusion. i enjoy watching good religious debates and presentation. i think FMM makes very good presentations, u should also show him some class?
ReplyDeletei love my girlfriend, so i have no need to ask rad mod for coffee. having girlfriend is also something which i could suggest to rad mod, 1mm, and of course u, dear lupus. it would really help u to develop some communication skills and common sense.
peace!
Anon said:
ReplyDeletedear lupus, u really shouldn't use a name of a disease for your nick name. it gives a lot of confusion. i enjoy watching good religious debates and presentation. i think FMM makes very good presentations, u should also show him some class?
I say:
Ok, thank you for the advice.
Anon said:
i love my girlfriend, so i have no need to ask rad mod for coffee. having girlfriend is also something which i could suggest to rad mod, 1mm, and of course u, dear lupus. it would really help u to develop some communication skills and common sense.
I say:
I'm married. If you think FMM has good presentations, then I don't think u're a good judge of what constitutes comm. skills and common sense. Moreover, you made a joke about mud rake and 1moremuslim, but at the same time accuse me of having poor class for making jokes. Talk about double standard.
I have delibaretly avoided to make jokes about FMM, because so far he has kept a serious tone in his discussions. I can even go so far as agreeing with you that he presents his arguments in a visually clean and tidy manner. However, that doesn't mean that his arguments are logical or very convincing. I think any one with a minimum of intelligence can see that his theology is contradictory and inconsistent. Just because you present the arguments such as:"That the person of Jesus was wholly God and wholly man so his human nature could be a “son of man” and at the exact same time his divine nature could be “not a son of man”." in a visually tidy manner doesn't mean that the content is nonsensical.
* is nonsensical should be makes sense
ReplyDeleteHey all
ReplyDeleteBefore I respond to all the posts I would like to point out that no one here has even disputed my original post illustrating that the Islamic god is anthromorphic. I guess thats because you all concede the point?
Instead it seems you are trying to prove that the Christian God does not make sense acourding to human logic.
So even in your attacks on Chrisitanity you show that you believe that inorder for God to be worthy of worship he must be like us ie anthropomorphic.
Peace
annon says,
ReplyDelete. you cannot observe god because the god you see is the god who reveals himself to you.
I say,
This is true for everything we observe.
Everything we know about anything is only what God chooses to reveal to us.
We would be unable to know anything if God did not choose to reveal it to us.
I agree that if God chose to hide himself we would be unable to observe him. That is the whole point. God did choose to reveal himself. To pretend that this did not happen simply because some folks deny that such revelation is impossible would be dishonest.
You say,
you dont offer meat to a vegetarian, you will only waste your time and annoy the vegetarian.
I say,
When I engage in these kinds of discussions I am not offering anything to anybody and I don‘t expect to change anybodies mind. I’m just defending my Lord,
I believe that only God can save people. He will do that or not with or with out me.
It would be cool if he chose to let me play a small part in his plan to reconcile the world to himself but that is totally up to him
Peace
FMM
ReplyDeleteI'm just sitting back and learning man.
Annon said,
ReplyDeleteYou knew full well that when I mentioned the qualities of being able to shoot laser out of eyes and fly, etc. these were meant to convey the idea of a human being who was NOT fully human.
I say,
I’m sorry but shooting lasers out your eyes or not has nothing to do with whether or not one is human.
While we are imagining things think of the character Cyclops in the Xmen movies. He can shoot laser beams out his eyes but no one would say he is not fully human.
You say,
Hence, the argument stands. Since greater beings than Jesus can be conceived, Jesus is not God.
I say,
You are going to have to explain to me what the heck your argument is. So far I have no clue.
Peace
@ FMM
ReplyDeleteSay: He is Allah, the One and Only
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
And there is none like unto Him.
Al Qur'an
Surah 112 - Al Ikhlâs
Enough said
@Abdul
ReplyDeleteSay
"In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]
Westminster confession
1mm says
ReplyDeleteDo you agree that the Divinity cannot occupy space?
I say,
You are confusing persons with natures. Natures (divine or human) don’t occupy space.
Persons may or may not occupy space.
The person Jesus occupied the body that was born of Mary.
The person Jesus had two natures one human one divine neither of which occupied space.
Lobo says,
Ok so the person Jesus the human person suffered for our sins, not your god. I thought a human sacrifice wasn't enough for the atonement of our sins.
I say
I’ll say it again slowly the person Jesus has two natures one human one Divine. So when the person Jesus suffered it was more than a human sacrifice.
Lobo said,
You said that the god part didn't bleed or any other stuff Jesus did, then it logically follows that he didn't suffer for our sins.
I say,
The person Jesus is not one part human and one part God. The person Jesus has two natures one human and one divine. I’m not sure how many ways I can say it.
Natures (Divine or human for that matter) don’t bleed. This is not rocket science
Lobo says
Then it can't be confined to the person of Jesus, which makes the idea that Jesus is god and man nonsensical.
I say,
These kinds of discussions would be much easier if you just took the time to think before you posted
You are confusing person with body.
A person may or may not occupy a body but is not “confined’ to a body. Your body will rot in the ground but the person who is lobo will countinue to exist.
peace
Lobo says
ReplyDeleteJust because you present the arguments such as:"That the person of Jesus was wholly God and wholly man so his human nature could be a “son of man” and at the exact same time his divine nature could be “not a son of man”." in a visually tidy manner doesn't mean that the content is [makes sense].
I say,
Please explain how this statement is nonsensical?
It might be helpful if you use a ven diagram or convert it into a syllogism or list the logical fallacies that you believe I committed
RM says,
I'm just sitting back and learning man.
I say,
If you are learning anything it is not due to my abilities but to the Grace of God who uses the weak and foolish to shame the wise.
I would very much appreciate if you would join me in praying that God will keep me from mistakenly saying something in my haste that might make my Lord look bad.
and feel free to jump in anytime you like
peace
FMM
ReplyDeleteWill do, I have wanted to jump in a few times but only to find out you already responded. I just want to encourage you, even if what you write goes in one eyball and out the other for most on this blog, it has been very edifying for me, as well as others.
Hey abdul,
ReplyDeleteI guess you did not read my first post.
Boasting that you are different from men while demonstraiting that you are not is just the sort of thing we would expect from an athromorphic god.
peace
Radical Moderate: "In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost..."
ReplyDelete3 persons of one substance, power and eternity? I can think of 3 identical red balls that, in essence, are of one color-red, one shape-spherical, one identity-ball. Does that mean the 3 balls are actually one ball? Nope. Likewise, the three persons of the trinity are not one existence.
@ FMM
ReplyDeleteYes you're right, I didn't fully engage with what you had posted on this thread.
Now that I have I can only conclude that your reasoning is not only seriously flawed but also contradicts your own position (assuming that you're a Bible believing Christian)...can you see why?
I'll leave you with this as I really cannot be bothered to wade through all the sophistry and spin...
He who assigns to Him (different) conditions does not believe in His oneness, nor does he who likens Him grasp His reality.
He who illustrates Him does not signify Him. He who points at Him and imagines Him does not mean Him.
Everything that is known through itself has been created, and everything that exists by virtue of other things is the effect (of a cause)
(Nahjul Balagha)
Peace
1milmeter wrote...
ReplyDeleteRadical Moderate:
Radical I become more and more convinced that you don't have any understanding of your theology, you are just a cultural Christian, just too proud of western culture.
You are right, I have no understanding of the theology Muslims say we Christians follow.
You also wrote...
Radical I have a simple answer for all your objections about Islam; never happened. Would you be satisfied with that simplicity? I call it stupidity
Wow, that is the Muslim response, to the crucifixion NEVER HAPPENED, that’s the Muslim response to Mohamed having sex with AIsha when she was 9, NEVER HAPPENED, that’s the Muslim response to a lot of things, just deny it ever happened. So thanks for confirming and admitting YES IT IS STUPDITY.
Abdul said,
ReplyDeleteI can only conclude that your reasoning is not only seriously flawed but also contradicts your own position (assuming that you're a Bible believing Christian)...can you see why?
I say,
No as far as I can tell my reasoning is solid and consistent with my presuppositions. If you disagree please point out the problems or inconsistencies. I would be very grateful.
as for your quote
no offence but could you explain what it means. It reads like new age gibberish to me.
thanks
Abdul,
ReplyDeletePlease permit me to ask you a question.
Given the philosophical mumbo jumbo quoted above, do you believe that Allah has attributes?
Much obliged,
Anon: "I can think of 3 identical red balls that, in essence, are of one color-red, one shape-spherical, one identity-ball. Does that mean the 3 balls are actually one ball? Nope. Likewise, the three persons of the trinity are not one existence."
ReplyDeleteYour illustration is akin to Social Trinitarianism rather than Classical Trinitarianism. As such your illustration has nothing to do with the historic Christian doctrine of the Trinity, the view that is expressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith.
But you already know that, don't you, IBN?
Abdul
ReplyDeleteDo you worship a water mellon?
Rad,
ReplyDeleteAbdul is obviously a Shi'ite. Let's see how he answers my question above. Then we can watch all the other Muslims on here pounce on him.
Radical Moderate :
ReplyDeleteCan you explain to me the difference between begotten ( Jesus) and proceeding ( the Holy Spirit)
FMM
ReplyDeleteTry to use more brain and answer my question not a question that you have made up in your head. Who mentioned the word nature?
Did the Divine person (the son) occupy space?
Did your God die, bleed and suffer? That is a yes or no question. Don't come up with a straw man for diversion. Don't use bogus words like Nature and stuff, I will correct you every time you do it.
1Milimeter wrote...
ReplyDelete"Radical Moderate :
Can you explain to me the difference between begotten ( Jesus) and proceeding ( the Holy Spirit)"
NO I cant, becasue that is not what we believe.
@ Anon-C
ReplyDeleteNo I'm not a Shi'ite, but I can and do enjoy parts of the Nahjul Balagha.
@ FMM
"no offence but could you explain what it means. It reads like new age gibberish to me"
It is partly due to comments like this that I am loathe to get into a discussion with you.
But I do have one question - do you believe that God, as portrayed in the Bible, is not anthropomorphic?
1mm said,
ReplyDeleteWho mentioned the word nature?
I said,
I did because when we discuss the details of God and the incarnation we must be make an effort to honor him by beining precise so as to eliminate confusion.
Often in the effort to slander God folks use equivocation and ambiguity. That has been the case since the beginning when the serpent deceived Eve by these same methods.
Because he was subtle He did not lie openly about God but used language that was technically correct but sloppy ambiguous and equivocal and therefore false yet seemed to be true.
It is important to always make an effort to clarify ourselves lest someone be mislead in the same manner.
You said,
Did the Divine person (the son) occupy space?
I say,
Because the person Jesus (the Son)had a human nature and a Devine nature he was able to occupy space and at the same time fill the entire universe. This is the miracle of the incarnation.
You say,
Did your God die, bleed and suffer?
I say,
Because Yahweh is a Trinity consisting of three persons who distinctly coexist in unity as co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial.
He can in the person Jesus suffer and die in my place while at the same time be on the throne controlling the universe in glory.
This allows also him to……..
To be perfectly Holy and at the same time grant forgiveness to unholy sinners.
To be omnipotent and at the same time understand and sympathize with my failings and weaknesses.
To be transcendent and at the same time be closer than a brother to me.
To be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:26b)
Allah can do none of these things because he is just basically a better version of us.
That is the difference between our two faiths
You worship a anthropomorphic god.
I worship the greatest conceivable being
Peace
Abdul said,
ReplyDeleteIt is partly due to comments like this that I am loathe to get into a discussion with you.
I say,
I’m sorry you feel this way but that is honestly how your quote reads to me. I don’t understand it at all. It’s like someone just strung unrelated words together in an effort to sound profound.
You say,
But I do have one question - do you believe that God, as portrayed in the Bible, is not anthropomorphic?
I say,
As I told 1mm earlier sometimes in order to communicate with us God condescends to speak as if he were like us but this is just a way for him to make his self understood to us.
When we look at the Bible’s portrayal of the Trinitarian God taken as a whole as I’ve been discussing in this thread then I can’t see how anyone could come to the conclusion that he is anthropomorphic.
Peace
FMM:
ReplyDeleteI have never seen a christian uttering BS like you:
Did I ask why or How Yahweh do things?
Was Yahweh a man, did he bleed and die? I told you not answer question I did not ask, but you can't do it, because you are ashamed to say , Yahweh bleed suffer and die.
Your perfectly Holy Son of God, who is Yahweh became SIN. Or may be it was never happened.
I can think of thousands of greatest conceivable Gods:
A God like Yahweh, but he lifts up True believing Christians into heaven as soon their sin are atoned for instead of leaving them here suffering in the world for NO REASON.
A God who makes women stop suffering from giving birth, since their sins were put on Jesus.
Your God continue to plague Christians with diseases and famine. Yahweh made Christians die in Church collapses , flooded Haitians Christians... I can go forever.
Another greatest God than Yahweh:
A God that creates perfect human beings, so none of his persons had to be Sin, all of his persons remained glorified all the time. The father was not " Greater" than the Son in any time.
Now FMM, you can show us your childish acrobatics. How many "never happened" would you use? and how many bogus gibberish words like Nature would you use?
Wow Radical Moderate:
ReplyDeleteYou said this "
" the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."
I asked:
"Can you explain to me the difference between begotten ( Jesus) and proceeding ( the Holy Spirit)"
Radical Moderate:
"NO I cant, becasue that is not what we believe."
Radical are you Christian?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHe can in the person Jesus suffer and die in my place while at the same time be on the throne controlling the universe in glory.
ReplyDeleteI say:
That was exactly my point. If he could suffer in the person Jesus, he could also feel the feeling of Jesus relieving himself in the bathroom, or did he suspend his capacity to feel Jesus' feelings in the bathroom but not on the cross?
FMM said:
To be omnipotent and at the same time understand and sympathize with my failings and weaknesses.
I say:
What kind of god has to become human in order to understand and sympathize with human failings and weaknesses? Could he do these things before he became human?
I haven't really discussed these specific theological issues with a christians in detail before and I must confess that I'm shocked that any intelligent human being can believe these things.
Bismillah
ReplyDeleteI would think Islam never fell into anthropomorphism.
Christianity, and its heretical worship of a man has done this more.
But, one finds anthropomorphizing of god all over various faith traditions, not just monotheistic ones
@ FMM
ReplyDelete"As I told 1mm earlier sometimes in order to communicate with us God condescends to speak as if he were like us but this is just a way for him to make his self understood to us"
And that would be the basic position that Muslim theologians would take when speaking of the Qur'an.
"When we look at the Bible’s portrayal of the Trinitarian God taken as a whole as I’ve been discussing in this thread then I can’t see how anyone could come to the conclusion that he is anthropomorphic"
What is interesting to note here is the fact that the Jews and Christians remained in a state of serious confusion over the issue of anthropomorphism well into the 12th century CE.
It was actually due to the influence of Muslim theologians and philosophers (who were of course influenced primarily by the Qur'an and Hadith) that this issue was finally resolved to a satifactory level by Moses Maimonides in his famous work - Guide for the Perplexed, which in turn greatly influenced Thomas Aquinas, one of your greatest theologians.
"I don’t understand it at all. It’s like someone just strung unrelated words together in an effort to sound profound"
I'm not at all surprised that you would take this position.
@ FMM or any other Christian
ReplyDeleteYou mention the issue of forgiveness through an atoning sacrifice as the only way that God can forgive the sins of man. For you this means the death of Jesus on the cross - in other words he took the punishment so that you won't have to, right?
A hypothetical for you to consider...
What happens if a person commits a terrible sin against another human being, let us say that in this instance this hypothetical person, in their lifetime, murders someone.
It is fair to say that no one has the right to forgive or pardon that murderer except the victim, to do so would be unjust.
At some point in this person's lifetime they embrace Christianity and accept Jesus Christ as their saviour, believing that all their sins (including this serious crime) have been forgiven.
When this person dies they are inevitably brought face to face with their crime and in this case with their victim as well, who refuses to forgive them.
Instead the victim insists that the murderer has to be punished for the crime commited against them.
The victim also demands that it is unjust that this person go unpunished and that the punishment of another (no matter who) in his or her place is also unjust.
Does God have the right to forgive the moral transgression of this Christian and if so how does this relate to His Justice?
You say,
ReplyDeleteWas Yahweh a man, did he bleed and die?
I say,
Yahweh is a Trinitarian God. That means in him are three persons each with a different role in redemption.
The role of the second person is to atone for the sins of his people by dying in our place. At the same time the other two persons each with the same devine nature continue to exist in glory.
You say,
you are ashamed to say , Yahweh bleed suffer and die.
I say,
I’m not in any way ashamed of my Lord or his gospel.
However if I was to make a statement like that with out clarifying my terms in a forum like this one where I believe that some would misunderstand me because of equivocation I would be guilty of deceiving by omission.
To make maters worse the subject of this statement is my Lord so I would be guilty of lying about God.
This is exactly the same sin that the serpent committed in the garden. I don’t intend to do that if I can help it
You say,
Your perfectly Holy Son of God, who is Yahweh became SIN.
I say,
There you go again. You make a statement in the hopes that folks will equivocate it to mean something that it does not.
A person can not become an abstract quality.
If this statement was to be understood like you apparently think it should it would like me saying
“1mm became the color green” it’s a logically nonsensical sentence.
On the other hand when we Christians say that.
“Him who knew no sin became sin so that we so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2nd cor 5:21)
We mean that the second person of the Trinity took the punishment due our sin so that in him we might receive the benefits of his righteousness. Nothing illogical or unseemly about that.
You say,
I can think of thousands of greatest conceivable Gods:
I say,
Cool lets hear about them:
You say,
A God like Yahweh, but he lifts up True believing Christians into heaven as soon their sin are atoned for instead of leaving them here suffering in the world for NO REASON.
I say,
Such a god would be unholy because he allowed sin to go unpunished
You say,
A God who makes women stop suffering from giving birth, since their sins were put on Jesus.
I say,
Such a God would be unloving since he did not allow his chosen people the unsurpassed honor of participating in the fellowship of his sufferings.
you say,
Your God continue to plague Christians with diseases and famine. Yahweh made Christians die in Church collapses , flooded Haitians Christians... I can go forever.
I say,
Yes and by that act of Gods kindness we get to play a small part in the great project that is the reconciliation of the world. How cool is that
you say,
A God that creates perfect human beings, so none of his persons had to be Sin, all of his persons remained glorified all the time.
I say,
I god like that would be unable to demonstrate his attributes of Grace and wrath to his creation and would be therefore less than omnipotent.
You say,
The father was not " Greater" than the Son in any time.
I say
A god like that would be unable to know what it was like to be under athourity and therefore would be less than omniscient
Do you have any imaginary Gods that are actually greater than Yahweh or they all like these puny week imperfect god wannabes?
Peace
Lobo said
ReplyDeleteIf he could suffer in the person Jesus, he could also feel the feeling of Jesus relieving himself in the bathroom, or did he suspend his capacity to feel Jesus' feelings in the bathroom but not on the cross?
I say,
I never said God was incapable of certain experiences That is Allah’s problem. Yehew is omnipotent and omniscient.
What I said was the divine nature of the person Jesus never did these things.
You say,
What kind of god has to become human in order to understand and sympathize with human failings and weaknesses?
I say,
Any kind. It is impossible to truly know what it is like to be somthing unless you have experienced it.
This is just logic 101
You said,
Could he do these things before he became human?
I say,
God exists outside of our universe so asking what he thought in the time before the incarnation is a meaningless question
That is why we can speak of Jesus being crucified before the foundation of the world.
you say,
I must confess that I'm shocked that any intelligent human being can believe these things.
The bible says,
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
It might be a good idea for you to look for somthing that I am saying that violates logic or schripture. instead of concentrating on it’s emotional impact
If what I was saying to you was not a shock to you it would let me know that I was not making myself clear.
quote:
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(1 Corinthians 1:18)
peace
Abdul said,
ReplyDeleteAnd that would be the basic position that Muslim theologians would take when speaking of the Qur'an.
I say,
The difference would be that not only does your God speak like us in order to be understood, he acts and thinks like us as well as I demonstrated in my first post
You say,
What is interesting to note here is the fact that the Jews and Christians remained in a state of serious confusion over the issue of anthropomorphism well into the 12th century CE.
I say,
Again you are going to have to be more specific I have no idea what you are talking about.
You say,
It was actually due to the influence of Muslim theologians and philosophers (who were of course influenced primarily by the Qur'an and Hadith) that this issue was finally resolved to a satifactory level by Moses Maimonides in his famous work - Guide for the Perplexed, which in turn greatly influenced Thomas Aquinas, one of your greatest theologians.
I say,
Of course you know that I completely disagree with this reading of history. How about some evidence instead of just making claims
You say,
I'm not at all surprised that you would take this position.
I say,
What position? I’m not taking a position I’m asking you to explain yourself so I can understand what the heck you are talking about
Peace
abdul said,
ReplyDeleteThe victim also demands that it is unjust that this person go unpunished and that the punishment of another (no matter who) in his or her place is also unjust.
Does God have the right to forgive the moral transgression of this Christian and if so how does this relate to His Justice?
I say
By definition a person can not be a Christian and at the same time believe it is unjust for Christ to atone for sins.
So the premise of your question is illogical on it’s face. If you can rephrase it in a way that does not violate the law of non contradiction I will be happy to answer it for you
Peace
FMM said:
ReplyDeleteI never said God was incapable of certain experiences That is Allah’s problem. Yehew is omnipotent and omniscient.
FMM said
Any kind. It is impossible to truly know what it is like to be somthing unless you have experienced it.
I say:
This must be like the thousand time you contradict yourself while explaining the incarnation. Is it impossible for your god to "truly know what it is like to be somthing unless you have experienced it"
FMM said:
It might be a good idea for you to look for somthing that I am saying that violates logic or schripture. instead of concentrating on it’s emotional impact
I say:
A contradiction violates logic and there are plenty of it in your reasoning about the incarnation.
lobo said,
ReplyDeleteIs it impossible for your god to "truly know what it is like to be somthing unless you have experienced it"
I say
It is not just impossible for my God it is impossible for anyone period.
I'm not talking about knowledge of facts I'm talking about knowledge of familiarity.
Thake a look at Webster’s fifth dictionary definition
Quote:
Know….
5. To be no stranger to; to be familiar. This man is well known to us.
End quote,
You can’t logically say I know lobo but I’ve never actually met him.
You can say you know about lobo if you’ve studied his habits and appearance. But you can’t say you know him until you have actually experienced his presence.
This is not a controversial position it is a self evident truth once you understand the meanings of the words in the statement.
You say,
A contradiction violates logic and there are plenty of it in your reasoning about the incarnation.
I say,
Please show me where I have made a contradiction. I would be very grateful
An example of contradiction would look something like this
A)This very ball is white
B) This very ball is black
Or
A) this exact point of space a is hot
B) this exact point of space is not hot
Or a favorite of mine
A)Allah is will not allow sin to go unpunished
b) Allah does not to punish all sin.
That’s the sort of thing I’m looking for
Thanks in advance
@ FMM
ReplyDelete"Of course you know that I completely disagree with this reading of history"
Of course you would because you are quite clearly a cherry picker.
I really do not need to be any more specific on this matter, after all Maimonides wrote this particular tract on, amongst many other things, anthropomorphism precisely because people were...wait for it...PERPLEXED! - The name kinda gives it away doesn't it ;)
And it is no secret that his works highly influenced Christian theologians as did Muslim scholars such as Al-Ghazali, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd - go look at any reputable Jewish historian and you will see that the golden age of Jewish philosophy and theology was a direct result of the Islamic golden age - something which many of your greatest scholars also benefitted from.
This isn't revisionist history FMM - just the facts.
"By definition a person can not be a Christian and at the same time believe it is unjust for Christ to atone for sins.
So the premise of your question is illogical on it’s face. If you can rephrase it in a way that does not violate the law of non contradiction I will be happy to answer it for you"
Who said anything about the victim being a Christian? Nothing illogical in my post - you just need to read with a little more rigor.
Peace
Abdul says,
ReplyDeleteI really do not need to be any more specific on this matter, after all Maimonides wrote this particular tract on, amongst many other things, anthropomorphism precisely because people were...wait for it...PERPLEXED! - The name kinda gives it away doesn't it ;)
I say,
Are you saying a Jewish philosopher wrote a tract and this somehow proves that Christians worship an anthropometric God? I’m sorry but I just don’t follow you.
Christians were worshiping a Trinatarian Yahweh long before Maimonides or Muhammad or Mickey mouse came one the scene.
If you think Yahweh is like us come on and explain yourself.
You say,
Who said anything about the victim being a Christian?
I say,
I apologize, I assumed that you understood that since the Father is perfectly Holy he can not look upon sin therefore no unforgiven sinner will ever be able to stand in his presence at the judgment and accuse him of injustice.
Instead those who are not in Christ will only experience God’s righteous judgment and wrath.
Since I’m in a hurry………..
Lets suspend logic and pretend that the situation in your question could actually happen.
Suppose that a unrepentant God hateing rebel would be allowed to question the righteousness of the almighty.
In such a case God would probably explain that the person who committed the crime no longer exists because he has been crucified with Christ in punishment for the crimes he committed.
He would probably use texts like this to emphasize his point
Quote:
We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing,
(Romans 6:6b)
Or
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Galatians 2:20)
End quote:
He would probably explain that the putting to death of the deeds of the flesh is nessary before one can experience eternal life.
Quote:
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
(Romans 8:13)
End Quote
And he would probaly explain that the process of putting to death the old man is a difficult and painful thing that can in the end be compared to passing through a fire
Quote:
each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
(1 Corinthians 3:13-15)
End quote:
Finally I suppose he would point out that questioning God is the very sin that got Adam and Eve in trouble.
And point out that what he thought was a senceless undeserved murder at the hands of a man was actually part of the punishment his sins deserved. Metered out by the holy sovereign creator of the universe
quote:
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:1-5)
Does that help?
@ FMM
ReplyDelete"Are you saying a Jewish philosopher wrote a tract and this somehow proves that Christians worship an anthropometric God?"
Not sure about anthropometric, but what I am saying is that it is a well known historical fact that Christians, well into the middle ages, did indeed believe God to be corporeal and anthropomorphic.
"Christians were worshiping a Trinatarian Yahweh long before Maimonides or Muhammad or Mickey mouse came one the scene"
Oh dear, don't know your history too well huh. Well let me enlighten you.
Towards the end of the middle ages there were serious debates raging amongst Christians and Jews about these issues that, notwithstanding the more sophisticated (and very rare) speculations of earlier neoplatonist thinkers like Augustine, were, more or less, put to bed by this famous work by Maimonides (Guide for the Perplexed).
This was, whether you like it or not, a direct result of his exposure to Muslim philosophers who, under the influence of the Qur'an, had already tackled this problem.
What I'm ultimately saying is that your theology developed under the influence of Islamic thinkers - until that point the majority of lay Christians did worship an anthropomorphic deity, the fact that you don't anymore is due to Islam - what does that tell you?
I'll refute your earlier confused attempts at proving that Allah (swt) is anthropomorhic later on as I am a bit busy at the moment. Then we will move on to the other issues that I have highlighted inshAllah.
Peace
In the Name of Allah The Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
ReplyDeleteThe praise is for Allah and may the peace and blessings be on His final slave and messenger.
Its just amazing how these people who believe that Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is Allah incarnate accuse us Muslims of being anthropomorphists. I dont think its nessesary to mention/quote every mistake these Christians has done here and spread further confusion. Som things that are mentioned is about Allahs Love, Forgivness and Allah decieving. Our shaykh Bin Baz mentions som important principals in this regard.
"From Eemaan (faith) in Allaah is to have eemaan in those of His Asmaa'ul-Husnaa (Beautiful names) and Sifaatul-Ulyaa (Lofty Attributes) that occur in His Great Book and that have been affirmed by His trustworthy Messenger (sallallaahu `alaihi wasallam) -without tahreef (distorting the wording or the meaning), tateel (divesting or denying the Attributes), takyeef(asking how) or tamtheel (resembling Allaah to any of His creation). Rather,it is obligatory to leave them as they came, without takyeef (asking how) or tamtheel (resembling Allaah to any of His creation). Along with this, it is also obligatory to have eemaan in the meaning that Allaah-the Mighty and Majestic-has been described with, in a way which befits Him: without resembling Him to His creation in any of His attributes.
Allaah-the Most High -says:
"There is nothing like unto Him,and He is the All-Hearing,the All-seeing"
Allaah -the Mighty and Majestic -also says:
"And do not put forward any similitudes for Allaah.Indeed,Allaah knows and you do not know"
So we know now that there is no likness to the creation when a attribute of Allah is mentioned in Islam. As soon as you say "God is like..." You are not talking about Allah anymore and you yourself have likened God to the creation and thats your problem.
Then this Christian says that it is impossible for Allah to know something because his (this Christian) logic and the dictionary says something else. Allah Knows everyting and does not have to experience something to know it, as we do. This is likening Allahs knowledge to His creation.
Than these Christians try to explained their "logical" belief and the real confusion starts:
"God is not a man" and Jesus is a man.
"God is not the son of man" and Jesus is the son of man.
Then he goes on to say that Jesus is God? And calls it scriptural and logic audhobillah. Clear contradiction.
Then he tries to clarify it by saying that Jesus is wolly God and wholly man. A clear contradiction to their own scripture and their belief. Its just a mess that will not convince anyone with sound intellect, even more so the muslim that has the correct belief in Allah the Most High.
May Allah the Most High guide these Christians to the clarity of islam amin.
And Allah knows Best.
The praise is for Allah and may the peace and blessings be on our beloved rasul.
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
@ FMM
ReplyDeleteJust a few problems with your 'logic'...
"The words of Humans are subject to corruption and eventually are lost. Allah word’s (the gospel and torah) are subject to corruption and eventually are lost"
Could you quote the surah you are referring to here. But, as an aside, by your 'logic' I could say that the God of the Bible is anthropomorhic, after all...
Humans contradict themselves. The Christian God contradicts Himself (in numerous places).
"Humans abrogate and rescind and their laws. Allah abrogates and rescinds his laws"
So that wouldn't be anything at all like your belief in an old testament and a new testament then?
"Humans sometimes deceive people Allah sometimes deceives people"
11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2 - 11-12
I wonder what incomprehensible verbal gymnastics you will perform to explain this one?
Peace
Abdul
ReplyDeleteLet me try and focus your thoughts a little. Like you I will be busy for a while
You said,
Towards the end of the middle ages there were serious debates raging amongst Christians and Jews
I say,
Philosophical debates have zero to do with the issue at hand. In the 18th century there was a debate among philosophers about whether or not miracles were possible. At no point in time did Yahweh loose the ability to perform miracles.
You said:
What I'm ultimately saying is that your theology developed under the influence of Islamic thinkers - until that point the majority of lay Christians did worship an anthropomorphic deity, the fact that you don't anymore is due to Islam - what does that tell you?
I say,
I disagree with your claim for three simple reasons,
1) If a person worships an anthropomorphic deity he is not a Christian period no matter what he calls himself.
2) It is impossible for Muslims who do worship a deity that is anthropomorphic to school Christians who do not in these maters.
3) Philosophy is not the determiner of Christian belief but only their servant.
If you still wish to hold to your claim please present evidence that early Christian Scripture or Creeds were changed or altered in any way as a result of Muslim influence.
Thanks
Alexander said ,
ReplyDeleteAllaah -the Mighty and Majestic -also says:
"And do not put forward any similitudes for Allaah.Indeed,Allaah knows and you do not know"
So we know now that there is no likness to the creation when a attribute of Allah is mentioned in Islam. As soon as you say "God is like..." You are not talking about Allah anymore and you yourself have likened God to the creation and thats your problem.
I say,
Again Allah claims to be different yet demonstrates he is not. If you want to prove that Allah is not like us you need to provide evidence from what he does not from what he says
Alexander said,
"God is not a man" and Jesus is a man.
"God is not the son of man" and Jesus is the son of man.
Then he goes on to say that Jesus is God? And calls it scriptural and logic audhobillah. Clear contradiction.
I say,
The person Jesus has two natures one human and one divine. Therefore he can be fully human and at the same time fully God.
You may not like this statement but it is logically valid.
You say,
Allah Knows everyting and does not have to experience something to know it, as we do. This is likening Allahs knowledge to His creation.
I say,
No it’s not it just understanding what we mean when we say knowledge. Knowledge in the sense we are discussing is experience.
Peace
Abdul said:
ReplyDelete"The words of Humans are subject to corruption and eventually are lost. Allah word’s (the gospel and torah) are subject to corruption and eventually are lost"
Could you quote the surah you are referring to here.
I say,
I know of no Muslim that believes we have the entire uncorrupted Torah and Gospel today. Are you making news here by saying that we do?
Abdul said,
"Humans abrogate and rescind and their laws. Allah abrogates and rescinds his laws"
So that wouldn't be anything at all like your belief in an old testament and a new testament then?
I say,
Not at all
The Old Testament law is still the valid law for the citizen of theocratic kingdom of Israel. There was never an abrogation of any kind.
That old covenant kingdom passed away when the Kingdom of God was instituted. The laws of the old covenant remained unchanged.
You said,
2 Thessalonians 2 - 11-12
I wonder what incomprehensible verbal gymnastics you will perform to explain this one?
I say,
No verbal gymnastics just context
Quote:
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-11)
End quote:
People refused to believe the truth God confirmed them in their state of rebellion. The text in context plainly says they were already deceived before God did anything.
Peace
@ FMM
ReplyDelete"Philosophical debates have zero to do with the issue at hand"
Au contraire my confused friend, it has everything to do with it. The fact that such debates were raging was because the majority of Christians and Jews did believe in an anthropomorphic and corporeal deity - just because you are anachronistically shoving your beliefs back onto these earliest Christians (and committing the no true scotsman fallacy in the process) does not make my point any less valid.
"It is impossible for Muslims who do worship a deity that is anthropomorphic to school Christians who do not in these maters"
I am afraid that you are wrong about this. You have come to a concept of a non-anthropomorpic God through the Muslim philosophers who studied the Qur'an and inturn influenced your later theologians - go read a little bit of history (objectively) and you will see this quite clearly.
Peace
You say,
ReplyDeleteYou have come to a concept of a non-anthropomorpic God through the Muslim philosophers who studied the Qur'an and inturn influenced your later theologians
I say,
prove it.
Show me something I believe about God that is not based on Scripture but instead based on the Quran.
Valid evidence would look something like this
The Bible says X
Because of Islam FMM believes not X
If you can’t do that we are at an impasse.
You say,
committing the no true scotsman fallacy in the process
I say,
It’s not the no true Scotsman fallacy to say that in order to be Christian you must worship the Christian God
That is what it means to be Christian.
If we are going to call a person who worships an antichristian God Christian then we might as well throw out language altogether.
Come on man use your head
peace
Hey abdul,
ReplyDeletesorry I missed this one
you said,
Humans contradict themselves. The Christian God contradicts Himself (in numerous places).
I say,
Please show me these contradictions. I know of none in the Bible.
I only ask you offer the text the same benefit of the doubt that you afford the Quran.
There are perhaps a few places in the Bible that might appear to be contradictory to a biased observer who refuses to let the Scripture interpret itself.
If the same approach is used on the Quran it comes out looking much worse than the Christian scripture in this regard.
Thanks in advance
@ FMM
ReplyDeleteWith or without context - it doesn't matter...
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-11)
Sending someone a delusion, so that they wind up believing something false is deceitful.
Simple as.
"Please show me these contradictions. I know of none in the Bible"
Now I know you're on a wind up - nice one ;)
Fifth Monarchy Man’s "Deceit"
ReplyDelete1/ If God doesn’t experience something, then he doesn’t know, so he is NOT omniscient.
Muslim asks: Yahweh didn’t experience being eaten by Lion, so he doesn’t know what it is like to be eaten by Lion, so he is omniscient.
FMM responds:
2/ I'm not talking about knowledge of facts I'm talking about knowledge of familiarity.
FMM is either deceiving himself, or he is mentally damaged.
I ask every Muslim just to ignore him.
1moremuslim said:
ReplyDeleteI ask every Muslim just to ignore him.
I say:
I must say that I agree. I reached that conclusion recently after discussing with him in a different thread. I must confess that I've not been consistent and have engaged him since.
People like FMM etc might be quite eloquent but when you read what they say it becomes apparent that their beliefs are irrational. I'm not saying that all Christians are like that. For instance, many mainstream Christians are honest about their theology and say that it is a mystery, take it or leave it. People like FMM try to defend their theology and issues like the inerrancy of the Bible in a language that obviously is riddled with contradictions. When you point that out they simply say where's the contradiction? You show them the contradiction, they produce another contradiction to resolve the first one ad infinitum.
I think we're just wasting our time trying to discuss with these people. From now on I will ignore people like Radmod, FMM, and Minoria inshallah.
abdul said,
ReplyDeleteSending someone a delusion, so that they wind up believing something false is deceitful.
I say,
Actually they don’t wind up believing something false they already believed something false because they refused to love the truth (verse 10). Then because of their actions God in judgment sends them a delusion (verse 11).
You can’t deceive someone who is already willfully deceived .
It’s not deceitful for God to Judge folks who refuse to love the truth with a delusion.
The context shows that these rebels would remain self deceived regardless.
What has changed is they are now deprived of the Grace they had already rejected
peace
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there
ReplyDeletewere a Niche, in which there is a lamp, the lamp is enclosed in crystal, the crystal is
of a starlike brilliance, it is lit with the olive oil from a blessed olive tree which is
neither eastern nor western, its very oil would almost be luminous though no fire touched it - as though all the means of increasing Light upon Light are provided -Allah guides to His Light whom He pleases. Allah cites such parables to make His message clear to the people; and Allah has knowledge of everything. (An Nur : 35)
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8 : 12)
islam anc christianity bring light to the world, when 2 lights are shining brightly together, there should be no more darkness in the world.
peace
1mm says,
ReplyDeleteYahweh didn’t experience being eaten by Lion, so he doesn’t know what it is like to be eaten by Lion, so he is omniscient.
I say,
1) because of the actions of the Jesus the Holy Spirit now dwells in the heart of believers even those believers that have been eaten by lions
2) knowledge does not work that way
Once I know that 5+2=7
The principle of inference allows me to also know that 345605+2=35607
I do not need to know how every conceivable weakness feels to know what it is like to weak.
1mm says,
FMM is either deceiving himself, or he is mentally damaged.
I say,
It does not surprise me that you accuse me of being out of my mind.
Folks have been accusing people
who bring the Gospel of that since the very beginning.
quote:
And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, "He is out of his mind."
(Mark 3:21)
end quote:
I will wear the charge as a badge of honor.
quote;
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
(Matthew 5:11-12)
Peace
Lobo said,
ReplyDeleteWhen you point that out they simply say where's the contradiction? You show them the contradiction, they produce another contradiction to resolve the first one ad infinitum.
I say,
If that were true it seems to me that you would want to engage with me just so that the superiority of Islam would be manifest.
I find it strange that you want to ignore the “eloquent but irrational” guy and instead spend your time trading barbs with the folks you believe to be islomophobic bigots.
You say,
From now on I will ignore people like Radmod, FMM, and Minoria inshallah.
That’s your choice
If God chooses to show you mercy let me know.
I would love to continue to tell you about my Lord.
Peace
"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." Luke 9:50
ReplyDelete"Good and evil are not equal. Repel (evil) with what is best, and you will see that the one you had mutual enmity with him will turn as if he were a close friend." (41:34)
the enemies of christianity and islam is human suffering, why argue when we can work together. evil prevails where the good ones are fighting among themselves.
peace