Speaking of the 7th century, Diarmaid McCulloch tells us Christians were praying like Muslims before the coming of Islam:
…the characteristic prostration of Muslim prayer was then normal in the Christian Middle East, where it still survives in some traditional Christian communities. Prayer mats, still one of the most familiar features of the mosque today, were extensively used by the Christian monks as far apart as Syria and Northumbria or Ireland before the coming of Islam. [A History of Christianity, Diarmaid McCulloch, Penguin Group, 2009, p258]
Why would early Christians pray like Muslims?
Could it have anything to do with Prophet Jesus (p) worshipping God in the manner in which Muslims pray? In fact, even Christian sources point to this:
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” [Matthew 26: 39, NIV]
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. “Abba,[a] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” [Mark 14:35-36, NIV]
Also see: Luke 22:39-46
Apart from the glaring theological problem which Trinitarians encounter from such passages (i.e. that of Jesus worshipping God!) we can clearly see that Jesus appears to pray in the manner of the Muslims according to Christian sources. Thus, from these passages we can understand the usage of prayer mats within Christian communities prior to the coming of Islam.
Note: The word Father (Abba) is simply a Jewish term for God. It is not to be taken literally, Professor Geza Vermes writes: Jesus prayed there in the solitude, invoking God as ‘Abba’, ‘Father’ or My Father’. The word is given in Aramaic in Mark and in Greek in Matthew and Luke. Abba is a familiar but also respectful expression. It is not the equivalent of ‘Daddy’, as some New Testament scholars have unwisely ventured to propose. [‘Jesus’ Nativity-Passion-Resurrection, Geza Vermes, Penguin books, 2008, p. 208]
What Does Son of God’ Mean?
May Allah send His Peace and Blessings upon all His Messengers. Ameen
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Christains prayed like Muslims LOL.
ReplyDeleteWell then I guess thats just another thing your prophet ripped off from us Christians.
STOP STEALING FROM CHRISTIANS MUSLIMS JUST STOP IT.
So why don't you Muslims pray like Christians anymore and that is to the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." - Matthew 6:6
ReplyDeleteMuslims pray out in the open publicly five times a day so they may be watched by the religious police, huge difference. Jesus praying like a Muslim during his most extreme emergency was also in private, sorry.
http://tinyurl.com/islamwatch
This really shows how desperate Muslims are when they come up with this nonsense.
ReplyDeleteLets see the accusation is that Christ and Christians prayed like Muslims. So lets take a look at how Muslims pray.
1.Make sure your body and place of prayer are clean. Perform ablutions if necessary. Make the intention to perform your obligatory prayer.
So snowman did Christ do this before his prayer at Gethseme?
2. Standing, raise hands up and say "Allahu Akbar" (God is Most Great).
Snowman did Chrsit raise his hands and say Allah Akbar?
3.Standing with hands folded over chest, recite the first chapter of the Qur'an in Arabic. Then recite any other verses of the Qur'an that you would like.
Snowman did Jesus do this?
4.Raise hands up, saying "Allahu Akbar." Bow, reciting three times, "Subhana rabbiyal adheem" (Glory be to my Lord Almighty).
Did he do this>
5.Rise to standing while reciting "Sam'i Allahu liman hamidah, Rabbana wa lakal hamd" (God hears those who call upon Him; Our Lord, praise be to You).
What about this Snoman?
6.Raise hands up, saying "Allahu Akbar." Prostrate on the ground, reciting three times "Subhana Rabbiyal A'ala" (Glory be to my Lord, the Most High).
Did Jesus do any of these things?
7.Rise to a sitting position, saying "Allahu Akbar." Prostrate again in the same manner
I wonder where it days in the Gosple that Jesus did this?>
8.Rise to a standing position, saying "Allahu Akbar."
Did he the repeat this nonsense ?
Snowman
ReplyDeleteAlso did he or Christians do any of this arabics during the 5 prescribed times?
I am no expert but I certainly know one custom in the church service was kissing each other .
ReplyDeleteRomans 16:16
"Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings."
1 Peter 5:14
"Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ."
I Corinthians 16:20
"Greet one another with a holy kiss"
II Corinthians 13:12
"Greet one another with a holy kiss"
I Thessalonians 5:26
"Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss"
It is called the Kiss of peace
Now it is only shaking hands and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_of_peace
About an Argument by paul Williams
ReplyDeleteIt is really the best Muslim argument about the Atonement as necessary.
http://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/the-strange-silence-of-christian-apologist-sam-shamoun/
He says in the NT Jesus teaches God freely forgives our sins.There is no mention of God dying for our sins
So no ATONEMENT is necessary.
He cites as evidence:
What Jesus says in:Matt 18, Luke 19, Mark 10.
OK,one has to know Judaism
Yes,yes,it is true,but the detail is in Judaism:
1.There has to be real repentance to have your sins fogiven,Jesus said it.
2.But AFTER that if one was Jewish,it did not apply to non-Jews,if one could,one had to do sin offerings at the Temple,an animal was killed as ATONEMENT.
It is in Leviticus 4:1-5:13; 6:24-30
So Williams is wrong,there is the idea of atonement in Mosaic Law.
The thing is that Jesus was the final and last atonement and Mosaic Law was fulfilled utterly and so no mre animal and blood sacrifices for sins.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
ReplyDeleteRM:
"...Raise hands up, saying "Allahu Akbar." Prostrate on the ground, reciting three times "Subhana Rabbiyal A'ala" (Glory be to my Lord, the Most High).
Did Jesus do any of these things?...?
Wile the exact steps of prayer (Ar. صلاة) (prayer) like you correctly mentioned, the Fiqh of prayer, the steps that muslims are now following, was only finalized in the time of the last prophet Muhammad (p).
The essence here is that, the Muslim prayer method of standing, bowing, kneeling, and prostrating in worship are essentially in the manner given in the Torah and the Gospel.
Moses, Joshua, Aaron, and Abraham (peace be upon them all) and the angels worshipped the One True God in all humility and humbleness through prostration and bowing as bro. Yahya has pointed out.
In Matthew 26:39 Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) also puts his face to the ground in humility before God.
Why then Christians innovate and dont follow what Jesus did??
What I see a noisy kind of whorship with people singingn jumping, clapping and shouting in church..
Only those who are being arrogant not to bow down and prostrate to God like prophet Jesus (p) did
Wassalam
Jesus prayed in many different ways, not just with His face to the ground.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't touch the Christian doctrine of the incarnation to observe that Jesus, who, although the Son, prostrated to the Father, for part and parcel of the full Christian doctrine is that the Son became a real human being. Human beings prostrate before God. That is part of the job description. If Jesus didn't pray to the Father, then he would not have been a perfect human being and would not have been a perfect sacrifice for sinners. In fact, if it could, per impossible, be proved that Jesus did not pray to God, then Christianity would not be true.
BTW, I like how Yahya shot himself and his fellow idolaters who reject the Father in the foot. He interpreted Christ's act of prostration and prayer to the Father as an act of worship. Are you unaware of the fact that this very same thing was done towards and was accepted by Jesus? Please let me know so I can show you.
Worship the God and FATHER of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not Muhammad's paternally-challenged deity.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
ReplyDeleteAnon,
What God's people are not to do is bow down before anyone else as God but God Himself.
But when one is bowing down before someone in higher authority in act of respecting the authority not an act of worship, this way was not a problem.
A good example of this can be found at 1 Chronicles 29 (NIV)
[1] Then King David said to the whole assembly: “My son Solomon, the one whom God has chosen,.. [20] Then David said to the whole assembly, “Praise the LORD your God.” So they all praised the LORD, the God of their fathers; they bowed down, prostrating themselves before the LORD and the king.
This is the same idea when Jesus (p) is exalted to a position honored by the angels and such the angels are to bow down before him and subject themselves to him.
This dont make him special or even God
God ordered the angels to bow down before Jesus (p) because he is superior to the angels just as prophet Adam (p).
وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ
And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers. (Q 2:34)
Wassalam
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
ReplyDeleteAnon: "...and parcel of the full Christian doctrine is that the Son became a real human being..."
There is no way of making a distinction between God and the God-incarnated human such that the concept of three person in one God substance could be supported.
For example, if Jesus can die, then he is not essential to the God-incarnation and is therefore irrelevant.
Also, Jesus (p) was entirely dependent on God for his resurrection (unless the dead have power of their own) and therefore contains an attribute in his ‘divine personage’ which is ungodly (I.e., dependence).
God will always be God!
Did the God incarnate Jesus get hungy and eat when human Jesus did? If so, then there is no divinity (because there is dependence), if not then there is no genuine reincarnation.
In either case, we would not worship what is not deity.
Wassalam
Erick I'm wondering if you can answer a few questions for me.
ReplyDelete1. Did you enter this world through the birth canel of a woman?
2. Do you get tired?
3. Do you get thristy?
4. Do you eat?
I think that should do it/
THanks
Erik wrote..
ReplyDelete"The essence here is that, the Muslim prayer method of standing, bowing, kneeling, and prostrating in worship are essentially in the manner given in the Torah and the Gospel. "
So in other words Christians do not pray like Muslims but instead it is Muslims who try to imitate Christians in the manner of wich we pray.
Just to let you know, we Christians do pray on our knees.YOu muslims just do not see it becasue we follow Jesus instruction and pray in private. You hypocrites as Jesus calls you make a big deal about it and pray in public making a spectacle of your selves.
Great article. This info was totally new to me. Thanks
ReplyDeleteبسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
ReplyDeleteRM: "..You hypocrites as Jesus calls you make a big deal about it and pray in public making a spectacle of your selves.."
Only certain times muslims perform Salah pray in public most of the time muslims pray in private.
Prophet Muhammad (p) encourage his followers to keep the night vigil in prayer in quiteness (salaati-l layli).
Please do some research or read something Islamic from muslims for a break..
The point is the salah prayer with standing, bowing, kneeling, and prostrating has also always existed with previous men of God, just in different forms, eventually with the advent of Islam, the rule of how to perform salah are finalized
Now, as for praying to the cross, that is an alien method of salvation. I wonder why you make such a big deal of of this concept
Wassalam
the problem with multiculturalism in the west is because the west is dictating its values to the entire world, while the entire world is busy with their own problem.
ReplyDeletethe west is taking resources from all over the world to fuel its growth, and when the west dives in to trouble, it drags the entire world with it.
imigration is the result of hundreds of years of imperialism and colonialism. it is the result of centuries of western exploitation in the entire world. multiculturalism is the breed of the sense of guilt. when one acts on guilt, when can only expect trouble.
in the end, the west can only hope that the entire world would not suck the western blood dry as the west had leeched on the rest of the world for centuries.
the problem with the west was self inflicted. it has nothing to do with islamic jihad, its just business..
@erik fadli
ReplyDeletehave you ever saw how buddhists in tibet pray? the bow, prostrate, and kneel... and they have existed before islam. but i doubt that they are praying to allah, or maybe muslims are praying to budha? or is allah budha?
Islam (the worship of the One true God, Allah) was the first religion that existed on earth. From the prophet Adam (peace be upon him), the first human being and profet of Allah islam existed. The Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and all other pagan idolworship came after islam. So its possible that the asians learnt the way to worship Allah but after generations passed they went astray and started to worship statues and other idols, like Christians did. History repeats itself.
ReplyDelete@alexander
ReplyDeleteactualy paganism has existed prior to islam. the kabaa was full of idols before muhammad cleaned it up.
buddhism has nothing to do with allah. nowhere in buddhist literature will u find a god telling people to fight the unbelievers. buddhism teaches people that salvation is a personal business, it has nothing to do with god...
i find it insulting to humanity that muslims believe that islam is the oldest religion and we have to revert to it. its like saying "lets give up the 21th century modern world and return to the 7th century desert arabia"
I also want to mention that the Buddhists in Thailand are reverting to islam in masses and are used to bow down. Allah saves them and i have met whole familys that reverted to Islam. All praise and thanks to Allah. They chose to leave the worship of statues and monks and now worship Allah The Most Great, The only One that has the right to be worshiped. They now follow the only religion accepted by Allah, the religion of all the noble prophets and messengers (peace and blessings on all of them) and the believers after them. And all Praise is to Allah The Most High. They left the monks and now love Allah and His final prophet and messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). They now believe and love Jesus without even seeng a chistian.
ReplyDelete@anon
Almost everything you wrote in your last post is wrong, but Im not here to debate that.
If you dont like Islam for some reason than its you choice, i leave that between you and Allah The most High.
All praise is due to Allah and may the peace and blessings be on our beloved rasul Muhammad.
@alexander
ReplyDeletethere are also many muslims who are leaving islam and are loving other gods, whats your point? quantity of does not determine whether something is true or not.
i do not hate islam, i have problem with islam because it is problematic. for me allah and islam are bad ideas which are popular, similar to the habbit of smoking. but of course it is your choice to muddle around bad ideas.
As a Muslim I believe that Islam existed even before it is called 'Islam'. In the Qur'an is it mentioned about the story how Allah created Adam. To me and other Muslim, we see no point to debate which religion came first, because we Muslims believes Islam is the first religion to ever exist like the Christian would believe Christian is the first because the story of Adam is also mentioned in the Bible. However, the act of prayer might have been different from how Adam prayed to how Muhammad taught us to pray. Some movement of prayers might have change in the gab between Adam to Muhammad.
ReplyDelete@Anon, you are entitled to your opinion. So I hope you can hear mine. Islam is a religion of peace. It is not an idea, it is a full-fledged religion and it promotes peace and living in good conduct. Some people might have been going to the extreme but that shouldn't be used to stereotype Islam as a whole. Being it is my religion you talk about, I have to defend it. A bad idea is to steal, Islam forbids it. A bad idea is to waste money and food, Islam is against that. A bad idea is to kill yourself, and Islam forbids you to do so. bad ideas are to fornicate, to spread lies, to backbite, to corrupt, and Islam forbids all those stuff. So does other religion. Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the world and since 9/11, many people don't even want to hear the world Islam. But if you may put your anger behind for a while and read some good book about Islam, you will understand what it is all about. Read the translation of the Qur'an, you'll find some fascinating facts about life.
Islam is holistic religion, it's not just a religion, but also a way of life, Islam teach about prayers to Allah, and Islam also teach about table manner. Take time to understand Islam, because we Muslims are taught to understand other religion, not to mock them, and we don't feel the need to anyway.