This is an interesting little discussion between Dr Shabir Ally and Dr James White where Bible contradictions are discussed as well as whether the Quran confirms all of the modern day Bible. Dr Shabir Ally absolutely hammered the nail on the head about Bible contradictions after James White gave a half-hearted attempt to convince folk there's no problem here. I also hope you noticed James White's sneaky misdirection (debate tactics!) in response to Shabir Ally mentioning the 9 contradictions that Christians have pretty much conceded!
The other major talking point is whether the Quran confirms the whole of the modern day Bible (the one which Christians have). Dr Shabir Ally deconstructs the old and refuted Christian missionary script on this talking point.
Dr. Shabir Ally answers James White
Learn about Islam:
http://www.thedeenshow.com
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ReplyDeleteHi Ken
ReplyDeletePlease do not bring any discussion which I have had on Paul's blog over to this blog. Any comments I make on Paul's blog are to remain there and if you wish to discuss them then please do so over there as that's only fair to Paul and the community there who may well also be involved or following the dialogue.
As for your points, no the Talmud is not any evidence for your claims of crucifixion. The Talmud mentions stoning - this is not crucifixion.
You also mentioned Isnad chains for the Talmud in order to convince me that it could be reliable? The Talmud has NO Isnad chains. Absolutely none.
My original comment still stands:
Ken, the earliest part of the Talmud is thought to be written around 200CE. Those who wrote it are not even considered primary sources by the historians you appeal to. The question is, where did they get their claims from? We don’t know. Is the Talmud something to rely on concerning Jesus? No.
In addition, this is not evidence for what you believe in as the Talmud is not mentioning a crucifixion but rather a stoning. How can you claim this is evidence for the Gospel accounts when it’s contradicting the Gospel accounts – stoning is not crucifixion.
The crux of the matter is that you believe the NT is reliable and you go by that hence your belief in a crucifixion and resurrection . What if Muslims were to show you the NT is not reliable?
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I remind you to not discuss this here - it may be discussed in it's proper place - Paul's blog.
Paul has a filter system in place on his blog - my comments have been caught up in there in the past too. It's nothing to worry about and it's certainly not a reason to bring the discussion here.
Thanks
PS Ken, I deleted your comment which contained a link to some Christian blog.
ReplyDeletePPS Ken, If you have some time, check this out:
ReplyDeletehttp://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/did-sam-shamoun-have-bowel-movement.html
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ReplyDeleteKen
ReplyDeleteYou yourself agree that the scribes made errors when copying the bible. Than how can you say it's the word of God. Are the "wrong words" and "copyist errors" also from God?
Even if you don't understand what the Quran says about the subject, it's a fact the bible has changed wether you like it or not. And for you it shouldn't matter what the Quran says about it. Historians, scholars of religion, priests and all the people that you trust tells you the bible has changed over time, than it shouldn't be so hard to accept what the Quran and Islam says about it I think.
The Quran confirms the truth alhamdulillah
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ReplyDelete@Ken
ReplyDeleteYou are saying that you believe you get the word of God by your scholars comparing a load of manuscripts and then trying to reconstruct the NT.
This does not make sense. Also, you are continually finding new manuscripts. The last major find was about 200 years ago - this find led your scholars to pretty much take huge chunks out of the NT (they remain there but the footnotes tell you they don't exist in the earliest manuscripts)
Another point, what is written by the NT authors was NOT sanctioned by Jesus. Jesus never saw the books of the NT. There were a ton of people writing Gospels, who decided which ones should be included in the NT canon? It wasn't anybody with any authority (like Jesus p).
Think about it.
Also think about the possibility of finding further new manuscripts which mean in the future your scholars will make FURTHER alterations to the NT - perhaps these finds will result in them adding or subtracting verses.
I understand that this is your faith and you may well have been born into it and practiced it for many years. Put that zeal aside and think about things objectively. Pop over to Paul Williams' Bloggingtheology and read what's on offer there - try to digest it.
As for burning of Quranic manuscripts, this is NO problem at all for those who understand. View this explanation from Dr Yasir Qadhi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBxN3iwF9YE
Peace
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ReplyDelete@ Ken
ReplyDeleteAre your comments on topic?
Are you aware that this blog is more about the posts rather than comments?
Are you a pastor?
Are you willing to have a debate with a Muslim on pal talk?