AntiMuslim Sun Set Arguments Refuted by That Muslim Guy

This was recommended by AC so I've reproduced it here. I have not had time to check it.
http://quran-errors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/did-sun-set-in-muddy-pool-according-to.html


Did the Sun set in a Muddy Spring according to the Quran? (Quran 18:86) [Detailed]

A number of Critics of the Quran put forth that there is a verse in the Quran that states that the Sun sets into a Muddy or Murky body of water. They claim it is a clear Scientific Error.

Verses in Question

The verses in question are found in chapter 18 verses 83-90 of the Quran. Here, Dhul-Qarnayn is described as rightous ruler who travelled to spread the message of God. Please read these verses before reading the following.

The specific verse in question Chapter 18:86 says:

{حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ}

When taking a look through varyious translations we gather what the verse is actually saying:

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud... [Saheeh International]

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water... [Yusuf Ali]

[And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea [Muhammad Asad]

Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea... [Shakir]

Until when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he perceived it setting in a miry spring... [Abdul Majid Daryabadi]

Until, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he saw it setting in a spring of hot and black muddy water... [Ali Unal]

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring... [Pickthall]

until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring... [Arthur John Arberry]

until he reached the West and saw the sun setting in a pool of black mud... [N J Dawood]

After looking at a few translation of the verse it becomes clear what the verse is saying. The verse clearly says Dhul-Qarnayn travelled to the end of the land (i.e. until he reached the sea), as far west as he could travel. When he travelled west and reached the coast, there was no more land in this direction (on is route to travel westward), there was only the ocean, and the sun was setting. And as he looked across the murky body of water he saw the sun setting at the horizon.

So what does the Quran actually say, does it state the sun enters the murky spring as the critics claim? The Quran was revealed in Arabic so to answer this we need to do a linguistic analysis of the verse.

Linguistic Analysis

{حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ}

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun (maghrib), he found (wajada) it set (taghrubu) in a spring of murky water...

The main words in question in this verse are:

 مَغْرِبَ (Maghrib)

 وَجَدَ (Wajada)

 تَغْرُبُ (Taghrubu)

Meaning of  مَغْرِبَ (Maghrib)

 The word “maghrib” [مغرب] is literally meaning something that is doing غرب, or loosely (but commonly): “west” or “sunset”.

According to Almu'jam Alwaseet المعجمالوسيط( Arabic dictionary published by Academy_of_the_Arabic_Language ):

المغرب
مكان غروب الشمس
وزمان غروبها
وجهة غروبها
وبلاد المغرب البلاد الواقعة في شمال إفريقية في غربي مصر وهي ليبيا وتونس والجزائر ومراكش
ومملكة المغرب اليوم الجزء الواقع في أقصى بلاد المغرب في غربي الجزائر ويحدها البحر
المغرب

So, it's :

1. Place of sunset
2. Time of sunset
3. Point of sunset
4. Countries located in North Africa in the west of Egypt ( Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco)
5. The Kingdom of Morocco ( Called Maghrib in arabic )

[Source]

According to Vocabulary of the Holy Qur'an page 447:

According to Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic Usage page 661:

According to Al-Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary page 1077 Maghrib means:

According to Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary, 3rd Edition Page 669 Maghrib means:

The words used in this verse are مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ. The author of Hans Wehr defines مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ as:

Maghrib is used in other verses of the Quran where the word does indeed mean “west”, such as {رَبُّ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ} in Chapter 26:28 meaning “Lord of the east and the west”.

So according to:

1. Almu'jam Alwaseet المعجمالوسيط
2. Vocabulary of the Holy Qur'an page 447
3. Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic Usage page 661
4. Al-Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary page 1077
5. Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary, 3rd Edition page 669

 مَغْرِبَ (Maghrib) means:

1. Place of Sunset, i,e west as the sun sets in the west
2. Time of Sunset
3. West
4. Sunset

According to:

1. Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic Usage page 661
2. Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary, 3rd Edition Page 669

مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ used in Surah 18:86 should be understood to mean:

1. Time of Sunset
2. Place of Sunset, i.e. west as the sun sets in the west.

So when Allah says "Until, when he reached the setting of the sun (maghrib)" it can either mean:

1. He reached the time of Sunset.
2. Or Dhul-Qarnayn reached the western part of his empire where there was no longer any land.

Meaning of  وَجَدَ (Wajada)

 وَجَدَ (Wajada) can mean to find/perceive/see/discover/experience.

According to Mini English-Arabic & Arabic-English Dictionary, Wagdi Rizk Ghali, Librairie du Liban Publishers, Page 340:

According to Al-Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary page 1223:

According to Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary, 3rd Edition, page 1049:

According to A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran by John Penrice p.158:

According to H. Anthony Salmoné. An Advanced Learner's Arabic-English Dictionary. Beirut. Librairie du Liban. 1889:

---

وَجَدَ

a. [ يَجِدُ ] ( n. ac. جِدَة [ 2t ] , وُجْد 3 , وُجُوْد 27 , وِجْدَاْن 34 , إِِجْدَان [ وِجْدَاْن 34I ]), Found; met with, came upon; perceived.

According to Arabic-English Dictionary by J.G.Hava p.884:

According to Dictionary Of The Holy Quran, by Malik Ghulam Farid, M.A p.817:

According to Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic Usage page 1012:

The author says about the verse in question:

According to Edward William Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon p. 2924:

He further writes:

Also according to the authoritative lexicon of Qur'anic terms Mufradat al-Quran of Imam Raghib Isfahani:

وجود بإحدى الحواس الخمس 

Perceiving something using one of the five senses

So according to:

1. Mini English-Arabic & Arabic-English Dictionary, Wagdi Rizk Ghali, Librairie du Liban Publishers, Page 340
2. Al-Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary page 1223
3. Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary, 3rd Edition, page 1049
4. A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran by John Penrice p.158
5. H. Anthony Salmoné. An Advanced Learner's Arabic-English Dictionary. Beirut. Librairie du Liban. 1889.
6. Arabic-English Dictionary by J.G.Hava p.884
7. Dictionary Of The Holy Quran, by Malik Ghulam Farid, M.A p.817
8. Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic Usage page 1012
9. Edward William Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon p. 2924
10. Mufradat al-Quran of Imam Raghib Isfahani

 وَجَدَ (Wajada) means:

1. To find.
2. To discover.
3. To perceive.
4. To see.
5. To experience.
6. Finding by means of any one of the five senses.

Also this action of Wajada is done with a strong emotion.

So when Allah says "wajada it set (taghrubu) in a spring of murky water" it can mean:

he found/discovered/perceived/saw the sun set in a spring of murky water. 

This means it is from Dhul-Qarnayn perspective, where he saw or perceived the sun setting in murky water. This can be easily seen when one travels to a shore whilst it is sun set and he will find it setting in the sea:

It is important to note that if the Quran wished to give the implication that the sun entered the body of water it wouldn't of said:

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun (maghrib), he found/perceived/saw (wajada) it set (taghrubu) in a spring of murky water...

It would of said:

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun (maghrib), it set in a spring of murky water...

The usage of wajada shows that it is from Dhul-Qarnayn's perspective.

Meaning of  تَغْرُبُ (Taghrubu)

The word used to describe the setting of the sun ‘in the murky spring’ is تَغْرُبُ [stemming from the word غرب - meaning to leave, be absent, be hidden, to depart, to be distant].  تَغْرُبُ  just means setting or disappearing. Meaning Dhul-Qarnayn found/saw/perceived the sun setting/disappearing.

It is important to note that the word used doesn't mean to enter [دخل], neither to sink in/be swallowed up [خسف]. If the Quran wished to say the Sun entered the water it wouldn't have used تَغْرُبُ (taghrubu) as تَغْرُبُ (taghrubu) doesn't mean entering. It would of used  دخل meaning to enter.

Everything mentioned above is summarised in the following video:

Summary of Linguistic Analysis

So the verse says that Dhul-Qarnayn reached maghrib - the time of Sunset or the place of sunset (west) - and he found/saw/perceived (wajada) it setting/disappearing (taghrubu) into a body of murky water.

This verse doesn't state the sun goes into a body of water, there are no implications of this at all. What the verse states is that Dhul-Qarnayn found/saw/perceived the sun setting in a body of water, which would obviously be the case when he travelled as far west as possible until there was no more land to travel on. Just as one can easily do if they visit the sea-side and watch the sunset.

Tafsir and Opinions of classical scholars

How did Classical Tafsirs and Scholars understand this verse? Did they support the understanding above? Undoubtedly yes:

Tafseer al-Jalalayn co-authored by al-Suyuti (d. 911 A.H.) and al-Mahalli (d. 864 A.H.):

until, when he reached the setting of the sun, the place where it sets, he found it setting in a muddy spring (‘ayn hami’a: [a spring] containing ham’a, which is black clay): its setting in a spring is [described as seen] from the perspective of the eye, for otherwise it is far larger [in size] than this world; and he found by it, that is, [by] the spring, a folk, of disbelievers. We said, ‘O Dhū’l-Qarnayn — by [means of] inspiration — either chastise, the folk, by slaying [them], or treat them kindly’, by [merely] taking them captive. [Source]

Tafseer ibn Katheer (d. 774 A.H.):

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun,) means, he followed a route until he reached the furthest point that could be reached in the direction of the sun’s setting, which is the west of the earth. As for the idea of his reaching the place in the sky where the sun sets, this is something impossible, and the tales told by storytellers that he travelled so far to the west that the sun set behind him are not true at all. Most of these stories come from the myths of the People of the Book and the fabrications and lies of their heretics.

(he found it setting in a spring of Hami’ah) meaning, he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean. This is something which everyone who goes to the coast can see: it looks as if the sun is setting into the sea but in fact it never leaves its path in which it is fixed… [Source]

Abu Hayyan al-Andalusi (d. 745 A.H) said in his Tafsir al-Bahr al-Muhit:

"And the meaning of setting in a spring is that it is according what the eye sees, not that it it actually does so, just as we see it (the sun)on the smooth earth (land) as if it as if it goes into the earth. It is also permissible (possible) that this spring a part of the sea"

(Abu Hayyan al-Andalusi, Muhammad bin Yusuf,Tafsir al-bahr al-muhit, 1993, First print, Dar al-kutub al-''ilmiyya, vol.6, p. 151)

Imam Al-Baidawi (d. 691 A.H.):

He probably reached shore of the ocean and saw it like that because there was but water at the furthest of his sight that’s why He says “he found it set” and does not say “it sets”. (Al-Baidawi, Anwar-ut-Tanzil wa Asrar-ut-Taw’il, Volume 3, page 394. Published by Dar-ul-Ashraf, Cairo, Egypt)

Imam Al-Qurtubi (d. 651 A.H.):

Al-Qaffal said: It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, “he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun.” (Holy Qur’ân 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. (Al-Qurtubi, Al-Game’ le Ahkam-el-Qur’an, Volume 16, page 47. Published by Dar-ul-Hadith, Cairo, Egypt.)

Imam Fakhr-ud-Deen Ar-Razi (d. 587 A.H.) in At-Tafsir-ul-Kabir:

When Zul-Qarnain reached the furthest west and no populated land was left, he found the sun as if it sets in a dark spring, but it is not in reality. The same when sea traveller sees the sun as if it sets in the sea if he cannot see the shore while in reality it sets behind the sea. (Ar-Razi, At-Tafsir-ul-Kabir, Volume 21, page 166)

According to Al-Mawardi (d.450 A.H) in his tasir (al-Nukat wa al-'uyun) the verse can be understood as:

That He (Dhul Qarnayn) wajadaha (found it, saw it) setting behind the spring ('ayn) AS IF it was setting in the very spring" 

:فيه وجهان

الثاني انه وجدها تغرب وراء العين حتى كانها تغرب في نفس العين

(Al-Mawardi, 'Ali bin Muhammad bin Habib, Al-Nukat wa al-'Uyun, Unknown year, Dar al-kutub al-'ilmiyya, vol 3, p. 450)

According to Al-Qutaybi (Ibn Qutayba , the famous scholar of Arabic language, d. 276 A.H):

it is permissible for the verse to mean from the perspective of the eye (في راي العين) 

و قال القتيبي: يجوز ان يكون معنى قوله(( في عين حمئة)) اي عندها عين حمئة او في راي العين 

(Al-Baghawi, Al-Hussayn bin Mas'ud, Ma'alim al-tanzil, Dar Ibn Hazm, First print, 2002, p. 795) 

What about the hadeeth in Sunan Abu Dawud?

There is a narration reported in the Sunan of Abu Dawud and in other sources that reads:

Yazid bin Harun- Sufyan bin Husain- Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah- Ibrahim (b. Yazid al-Taymi)- Yazid al-Taymi- Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Hadith 3991)

So the question is - Is this hadeeth authentic?

The answer is no. The hadeeth is Shadh (anonymolous) and Mu'allal (defective), rendering the hadeeth da'if, as has been demonstrated here. 

The defintion of a Shadh hadeeth is the following:

“… the anomalous hadith is the one which a reliable transmitter relates and which is in conflict with what other people relate.” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, Translated by Dr. Eerik Dickinson, Garnet Publishing Ltd. Berkshire 2006 p.57) 

The definition of a Mu'allal hadeeth is the following:

“A defective hadith is one in which a defect impugning its soundness is detected, although it outwardly appears to be free of the defect. That may apply to an isnad made up of reliable transmitters which outwardly seems to fulfill the conditions of soundness. Someone being alone in transmitting the hadith as well as others contradicting him aid in catching the defect.” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, p.67)

The Shadh and Mu'allal narrations are rejected by the Muhadditheen and cannot be attributed to the Prophet.

Conclusion

The allegation put forth against the Quran is utterly baseless and is simply refuted by the Arabic language. The verse contains no reference at all of the sun literally setting or entering or going down into a muddy pool of water.

It simply tells the story of righteous servant of God - Dhul-Qarnayn - who traveled on a journey until he reached the time of sunset or the western part of his empire and saw the sun setting, from his perspective, in a body of water. As anyone is able to do if they visit the sea side.

Dr Yasir Qadhi: The Distortion that Prophet Muhammad 'Robbed Caravans'

Did Prophet Muhammad Have Epilepsy? No. Dr Yasir Qadhi

What does Awliya mean in Quran 5:51

Murder Rates in Muslim Countries Compared to Non Muslim Countries.

The Hitler Propaganda on Muslims

Numerical miracle in Quran

British Muslims Protested to Defend Jesus p

Sharia Law against terrorism

Christians having dreams and converting to Islam

Conversions to Islam

Learn about Islam

Email: yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk