There is no need to dress this up. Have a listen to this video and ask yourself whether Sam Shamoun has any business being taken seriously...he well and truly has egg on his face. Why do ABNSat employ the unlearned, unsophisticated and disingenuous?
Here is a more detailed discussion of Sam Shamoun's uneducated claims:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/09/sam-shamouns-illogical-pagan-assertion.html
The Sam Shamoun section:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/search/label/Sam%20Shamoun
More About ABNSat (Aramaic Broadcasting Network) and Pastor Joseph Najm here:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/search/label/ABN%20Sat
Please go to your local Islamic centre to learn about Islam...do not go to anti-Muslim bigots such as Sam Shamoun who have a hidden agenda of distortion and misguided grabs for fame and fortune.
Did you know Muslims believe Jesus and Moses as great Prophets of God?
Did you know Muslims believe in One God and Muhammad as the last Prophet of God?
If anybody knows if Shamoun draws an official salary from his written work or stints on ABN please let me know. I was reluctant to claim so (despite strongly believing he does get paid by ABN) as there was little to no evidence of such transactions.
I doubt Shoebat and co come at no cost...
If you know...then email me (that includes you Pastor Joseph :)
Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com
Form the church to the mosque. Christians are converting to Islam.
Tags: Debate night, ABNSAT, ABN, Aramaic Broadcasting Netowork, Tony Costa James White Walid Shoebat Jesus or Muhammad show, News and Views, David Wood, Nabeel Qureshi, Farhan, Nadir Ahmed, Anjem Choudry, Choudhry, Pam Geller, Robert Spencer, Alpha and Omega ministries, Zacharia Anani, Ergun Caner, Fakes, Fraud, Scandal, Imam, Church, Mosque, muslims
With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
ReplyDeleteI think anyone who debates Sam Shamoun should do the following as it will help to clear the air about allot of things.
1) Have him take the equivalent or placement test administered by Arabic faculty at one of America's prestigious universities.
*cough* in fact inquire about his education period.
2) Have Shamoun and his debate partner submit to a psychiatric evaluation by a mutually agreed upon psychiatrist.
The reason I said both Shamoun and his debate partner is so not to be condescending to Shamoun.
I think that an analysis would show a red flag for Shamoun on Cognitive dissociative disorder.
Slander seems to come natural to muslims. Keep it up, boys. You tell the world about the true nature of Islam.
ReplyDeleteWith the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
ReplyDeleteIt would only be slander if it could not be provable or falsifiable thus not giving the person whom an accusation is made of a fair chance.
Shamoun makes numerous blunders on the Qur'an. Asking what academic background he has that allows him to do exegeses of the Qur'an or the Bible for that matter is quite fair.
Any Christian who truly loves Sam Shamon would be concerned about the state of his mental health as he has obviously shown signs that he is struggling with something.
Asking BOTH Shamoun and his debate partner to submit to a psyche evaluation (though an unusual request) is nonetheless fair as it is not requesting a stipulation for one that the other would not be required to partake in.
I learned how to slander from Sham Shamoun.
ReplyDelete@anonymous
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty tired of anonymous comments being thrown out. The anonymous shield is a barrier protecting you from full rebuke and responsibility for the comment.
Your accusation is actually insulting and distracts from the real issue.
The real issue is Sam Shamoun's misguided insults and claims.
If you want to make blanket statement which are baseless please go elsewhere.
I would NOT be surprised if this anonymous comment was from Shamoun. I have recently noticed another comment from him on my YouTube...Shamoun clearly has been browsing my material.
Sam, if it is you, feel free to comment under your actual name.
I bid you goodbye
Hmm, let's see Pagans circumnavigated the Kabba, pagans kissed and fondled the black stone, pagans threw rocks at pillars.
ReplyDeleteNo I don't see any cause to say that Islam practices paganism. None at all.
And thefatman, ancient egyptian and greek scriptures speak of a god dying for its people, being born of virgins ad so on.
ReplyDeleteThe Pagan claim is really tiring. I told David Wood the same thing I'm going to tell you, read the book "Muhammed" by the Christian scholar Martin Lings. He refutes the worthless cases constantly brought up by you guys. Read upon the life of the Queresh tribe vs Pagan tribes. I really doubt you know a thing about pre-Islam Arabia.
What a sick picture fatman. You Christians amaze me with the lack of knoweledge you guys bring.
ReplyDeleteYou have a sick mind. You want to debate about Aisha I'm all up for it. It's obvious you need a lesson on Islam. And you said I was born stupid?
Sorry to be harsh Yahyah but this fatman character follows the same old ideology most Christians depend on: ignorance.
Womanof yeah I don't understand what your rant has to do with the subject at hand. And that is that Arab Pagans performed the same relgious rights and rituals as Muslims do to this day.
ReplyDeleteEven if it is true that Greeks and Eyptians believed in a Virgin birth and a god dying for his people as you claim. What does that have to do with Islam adopting the rights and rituals of PAGANS?
Finally I have no idea what Aisha has to do with any of this. And no I don't debate Muslims on Aisha for the simple reason I get violently ILL when I hear the excuses. Sorry I dont like to vomit. that is no joke I do vomit.
But Woman thanks for letting me bring out the Islam out in you. Like poison from a wound.
@WomanForTruth
ReplyDeleteFatMan is a friend of Sam Shamoun. He went to ISNA with him.
That speaks volumes.
I wonder if Shamoun insults him
@ FatMan...as per your question on what sin is...I have ALREADY explained it in a previous blog article...search for it in the serch facility
It wll be in the "why Islam" section.
I will respond to your email later this week. It is late now and I would rather spend some reading time before going to bed...inshaAllah.
Rest assured...I have not forgot about you.
You can blame your plas for wasting my time; they keep presenting misinformation about Islam and I expend time and energy showcasing and rebuking their errors
Peace
Yahya Snow said "I wonder if Shamoun insults him"
ReplyDeleteWow the only people who have been insulting me are the two Muslims on your blog Ibn, and WomanofTruth.
Secondly if you already wrote a blog post on the causes of sin from a ISLMIC world view, then why has is it taking you so long for your to respond to my simple question. Just copy and paste your blog post in a email and that's that. Instead I am still waiting for your response if your God is willing. So far you God does not seem to be willing.
TheFatJoke: Sorry I dont like to vomit. that is no joke I do vomit.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should go on a diet.
Ibn, Woman, Yahya Snow.
ReplyDeleteDo I bring out that Islam in the Muslim or what. I draw it out like poison from a wound.
@ Ibn
ReplyDeleteYou couldn't have learned how to slander from Sam...You are too stupid to learn. You are a Muslim, remember?
With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
ReplyDelete1st to the FatMan I am not here to insult you but I am more than happy that you changed your picture from a woman covered in blood (one that invoked sado-masochistic imagery) to your current picture that looks like something from a 1998 KORN album.
Your previous picture was truly disgusting so your meter for measuring morality is questionable at best.
That aside you made a good point that Pagan people did all those things that Muslims do today.
However, of course we as Muslims have a presuppositional view that this was something originally done by people who did fear and love Allah.
I would encourage you to read the history of the civil war in Israel. When Judah and Benjamin fought against the 10 other tribes. Very interesting stuff.
Here is some of the Maccabee revolt as well,
"One battle was at Bethhoren, where Joshua had gained his victory over the southern kings, and another was by the valley of Elah where David had killed Goliath. Judas remembered how the Lord had helped His people in the old days, and he had faith that He would help them still. His courage and skill and his grand faith inspired new life into the Jews. After three great victories, Judas and his men cleansed the temple and built a new altar in place of the one that had been defiled, AND DEDICATED IT AGAIN to the worship of the Lord. It was on the fifteenth day of the ninth month, which was in the early winter and they commanded that a feast of eight days should be kept each year at this season in memory of the dedication. (1 Mac. 4:36-59; 2 Mac. 10:1-9)
In fact Muslims believe that Allah has sent a prophet to every people.
ReplyDelete"And verily, We have sent among every nation a Messenger proclaiming: Worship Allah and avoid associating partners with Allah." (Holy Qur'an chapter 16:36)
The important thing to reflect upon is that all religion is filled with symbolism.
As you know going under the water (In some of the Protestant tradition) represents being dead and buried with Christ and than raised a new creature.
Just to see if we are being consistent I have a question for not only you FatMan but for all the Christians at answeringmuslims.
Which one of you has ever written an article, blurb on a blog, web site that has extorted Christians to immediately stop practicing Christmas?
If you haven't than I am afraid what I have done is bring out the Paulinian in you. Phillipians 1:18.
It shows you being inconsistent in your attack upon Islam.
Why are you so worried about what we do in Mecca when millions of your brothers and sisters in Christ celebrate Christ-Mas?
Or have you made a conscious decision like so many Christians I have met who say, look I know it's pagan but for me it now takes on a new meaning: time to be with family, friends, be cheerful in otherwise stressful times.
I think the issue is consistency.
Anonymous:@ Ibn
ReplyDeleteYou couldn't have learned how to slander from Sam...You are too stupid to learn. You are a Muslim, remember?
I guess. I wish I were a Christian like you Anonymous. I could lie, drink, fornicate, molest and do all sorts of things Islam forbids me to do. Maybe someday I'll have the same wet dreams as Nabeel Querishi and end up converting to Christianity!
The Islam is strong in Ibn
ReplyDeleteFirst thank you for your kind words.
ReplyDeleteFirst the picture of the woman was a picture of NEDA, you remember NEDA don't you. She was the woman who was shot dead in the streets of Tehran. Her crime was protesting against the Corrupt Fascists Islamic Shia regime. The picture was actually of her bleeding out in the streets, the blood although computer enhanced was real. I hope she is never forgotten.
Now to get into your point on Christmas. Although I like most Christians know that Jesus was not born on December 25th, and it is more than likely that the day was chosen to take over a pagan Holiday from Roman Cult worshipers. This date came later much later. Without looking it up I would say 3rd Century. But I could be wrong on that. Over time other things where added like the Uele Log, and the Christmas tree Santa Clause, and let’s not forget Rudolf which was added in the 1950’s. Side note Christians do not bow down underneath a decorated furr tree and worship.
Now although the day was originally a day celebrated by pagans. I as most Christians find nothing wrong with getting together with family and friends exchanging gifts watching holiday television, eating good food, and of course seeing the joy in Children’s eyes as they open their gifts. All in remembrance of the birth of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ. Now what I do have problems with is that people only seem to remember him on this day. But that is a different matter.
Now as I said this was a latter incorporation and it is not a dogma in any Church. In other words it is not a PILLAR. Celebrating Christmas, or not celebrating Christmas in most and by most I mean 99.999999999999 percent of all Christian denominations does not anathematize you. I know of one small church, a sect of 7th day Advantest who forbid the celebration however they are tiny only numbering in the thousands nationwide. Jehovah Witnesses cannot be considered Christian because of their denial of the deity of Christ. Actually they don’t deny his deity they make him a lesser deity then the father.
Now compare that with Islam. Hajj as well as it’s practices are without question Pagan. They existed before Mohamed, and Mohamed incorporated them into his Religion. There is no historical, record of the practices of Hajj ever being practiced by Jews or Christians at any time in history as part as any tenant of faith. Hajj is also a pillar of Islam, It is DOGMA. You may not be able to go on Hajj, but you cannot deny it as a tenant of your faith. To do so would make you a heretic\apostate. And that is untimely the difference between the two.
Fat Man:
ReplyDeleteWho said that the Prophet incorporated pagan hajj customs. Paganism was an eclectic cult, which incorporated customs and even deities from other religions. The hajj tradition goes back to the tradition of Ibrahim, Ishmael and Hagar.
With your logic Muhammed should have destroyed the Kaba only because it was used by pagans. He should also have abolished belief in Allah, only because the pagans happened to worship the one God.
My advice to my brothers and sisters is to ignore people like the FatMan, because what they're doing is to shift the blame of paganism from christianity to islam. This is one of the most basic techniques in rethoric.
thegrandverbalizer19
ReplyDeleteI also wanted to address your point on the civil war of Israel and the Maccabee revolt. I assume that you are again using this as a comparison of Mohamed incorporating pagan rights and practices into Islam.
Let me repeat my last point a bit. First there is NO EVIDENCE, either Historical or Archeological that Jews or Christians or any believer in YWHY practiced anything like Hajj in the Arabian desert at any time.
The only thing you have is like you said your presupposition that these things were practiced by believers in the one true living GOD.
I have no problem with presuppositions however you have to prove these presuppositions. You can not just create a faith or believe a thing based on your presuppositions. That is indeed blind faith.
Now what we have in the passage you sited dealing with the Macabee revolt. Is simply the Worship of GOD which had been established historically and archeologically was being defiled by pagan practices.
There is no doubt in any serious academic circles that the Jews practiced what the Tanak says they practiced. Worship at the temple with all it's pomp and ceremony are historically established facts. These are not "Presuppositions", these are Historical Facts. Something you do not have with the pagan practices incorporated into Islam.
thegrandverbalizer19
ReplyDeleteSo in conclusion what are we to believe about Hajj. There are two choices.
1. We can believe as the Islamic presupposition states. That the practices and rituals of Hajj were in fact laid down by the God of Abraham. These were early practices going back thousands of years before Islam. We can believe this even though there is absolutely no historical or archeological evidence to even suggest that Mecca existed in the 3rd or 2nd Millennium BC, much less that these were practices going back to the time of Abraham.
We can believe this in-spite of the fact that we have historical as well as Archeological evidence pointing to the Israelite form of worship, from the moment they entered into Cannan.
2) Or we can beleive that the pagan practice of Hajj along with it's rights had always been Pagan,and they were incorporated into Islam as a way of giving it something ancient and more importantly as a way of inciting those that were already practicing these things to join Islam.
You can only believe the former if you have a presupposition to believe in something in-spite of all the evidence to the contrary. You can only believe the latter if you do not have said presupposition and you believe the historical and archeological evidence.
The former is blind faith, the latter is faith based on reason. As the creator of this blog likes to tell people. Use your mind, and think.
Rabid Wolf said "The hajj tradition goes back to the tradition of Ibrahim, Ishmael and Hagar."
ReplyDeleteI say prove it. I can prove from historical and archelogical evidence that what the worshipers of YHWY practiced were in fact being practiced in Cannan, later Juda and Israel.
thefatman ,
ReplyDeleteQuran2:127 '..And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing..'
For us muslims , it was Prophets Ibrahim(as) / Ismail(as) who built the kaabah.
~ 400 yrs before Prophet Muhammad(saw) , a certain person Amr Luhayi introduced an idol to the kaabah and follow on to that idols were placed at the kaabah. It was paganism that hijacked the kaabah. Prophet Muhammad(saw) then cleanse the kaabah. From your posting , its either you do not know history or pretend not to know.
In the historical context , the kaabah was built on the basis monotheism worship , got hijacked by the pagans and Prophet Muhammad(saw) rightfully returned it to monotheism worship. Your history has been truncated to only a couple of years before Prophet Muhammad(saw) or its 'christian takkiya'
What do you think of the following?
gen28:18:19 '..Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. 19 He called that place Bethel, [f] though the city used to be called Luz..'.
Is this a pagan practice?
Wait ... it gets worse. You said '..Now although the day was originally a day celebrated by pagans. I as most Christians find nothing wrong with getting together with family and friends exchanging gifts watching holiday television, eating good food, and of course seeing the joy in Children’s eyes as they open their gifts. All in remembrance of the birth of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ..'.
Why can't christians do away with the 25 dec celebration so as to do away of celebrating 'son god day'? Its as pagan as it get. Agree?
With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
ReplyDeleteFatman I appreciate the historical context of the picture you had and admit my ignorance to why you had it in the first place. I am glad that you removed it. I think a simple picture that says "fight injustice" would do nicely this way it goes beyond the tribal mentality of islam vs christian injustice, black vs white, and so forth.
No one has a monopoly on good or injustice.
Fatman you said,
"Now although the day was originally a day celebrated by pagans. I as most Christians find nothing wrong with getting together with family and friends exchanging gifts watching holiday television, eating good food, and of course seeing the joy in Children’s eyes as they open their gifts."
and as sam has already pointed out there is the inconsistency. I already mentioned you might say something along these lines.
You can say what you want and that's fine and well. It does not circumvent it's origin and whom that day was dedicated to. So Christians took something pagan and made it a day to remember their Lord and savior.
Sure no problem but if it was me I would gravitate towards the 7th Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witness or Even Greek Orthodox position on the matter. It would trouble my spirit.
One last question on this point. Do you say Marry Christmas on that day? If so what do you understand Marry Christmas to mean?
Fatman you said,
"1. We can believe as the Islamic presupposition states. That the practices and rituals of Hajj were in fact laid down by the God of Abraham." I have no problem with this. Because this presupposition is backed by the fact that the Qur'an is revealed knowledge by the author of the universe. (of course that is another subject isn't it).
So my presupposition is based upon revealed knowledge (at least from my view point).
By the way in the above post it should be 'Merry Christmas' not Marry Christmas
ReplyDeleteFatman you said,
"I can prove from historical and archelogical evidence that what the worshipers of YHWY practiced were in fact being practiced in Cannan, later Juda and Israel."
I would like to take you up on this point.
I am assuming by this you mean extra biblical evidence. Otherwise it's a presupposition based upon faith (what the Bible says alone).
We would need to have outside corroborating evidence wouldn't we?
Could you for example show us how this practice was done using extra biblical data, historical and archeological evidence.
"Leviticus 5:11 But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, nor shall he put any frankincense on it; for it is a sin offering. [12] Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, a memorial part of it, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord; it is a sin offering."
Could you show using extra biblical data how in Judaism the prayer is performed?
Since Prayer and Sacrifice are very important tenets of Judaism (www.jewsforjudaism.org) maybe you could shed some light about the historical aspects of this?
In fact most of those evangelist and people who use archeology for propaganda of the Christian faith have little to no knowledge of what archeology is and do not have any grounding in it as a discipline.
Not to make fun fatman but it really sickens me to see someone show a pottery shard dated 800 years before Jesus and say see this is proof that Isaiah really walked these lands because this jug has Hebrew inscription proof that people drank water in those times!
Some times you scratch your head and go huh?
Just like today in Islam we got all these people running around our Mosque and Islamic Centers with degrees in Economics, Medical Science and they are speaking on behalf of Islam.
I'm sitting in the audience thinking o.k he's got a degree in economics fine....but he's a spokesperson for Islam? How does that work?
Today because we have a dearth of scholars we Muslims are just looking for warm bodies who can speak well in front of others truth be told.
Christians have a dearth of real convincing evidence for their faith so they use the old archeology proves the Bible.
It's simply fallacious. This claim is made in hopes that people don't go and double check the sources and 90% of the time people don't.
It's a game of poker.
Sam1528 I have no idea why you would quote Gen 28:19 and ask if this is pagan.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that Jacob anointing a place to the lord is the same as the practice of circumabulating the Kaba with it's black stone? Or are you saying that this is the Black Stone and Luz now called Bethal is in fact Mecca? Could you please elaborate on that.
Now you go to the Quran to prove that what the pagan's were practicing was in fact in veneration of Allah eons past. I'm sorry but again you are just re stating your presupositoin that the Koran is right so there for it must be true.
You did not site a source for your other quote about a man introducing Idols into the kaba 400 years before Mohamed. Please site your source. I'm sure its from Ishaq or Tabari. But either way there is NO proof, NO REFERENCE, NO MENTION OF MECCA, KABBA worship etc... prior to Islam.
However we do have mention of the Temple at Jerusalem, temple worship, Jewish practices, and beliefs prior to Jesus Christ.
As far as your questions about Christmas, I already answered that in the previous post. But I will answer it one more time for you.
Christmas is not DOGMA, it is not a PILLAR of the faith. Observe it, dont observe it. The holiday has no bearing on the DOGMA's i.e. Pillars of Christianity.
FatTurd: NO MENTION OF MECCA, KABBA worship etc... prior to Islam.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying there is no historical references to Mecca or Kaaba prior to Islam?
Get this, fatman says we insult him, yet he said I was born stupid on the answeringmuslims blog, twice.
ReplyDeleteThe reason he doesn't want to debate about Aisha is he know's he cant put up an argument (like most Christians). I've seen his "vomit" excuse several times before, it's the only thing he brings up related to the Aisha-Muhammed marriage.
On a side note fatman, since you said Iran has an "Islamofascist" ruling, can you tell me did Mousavi want to abolish this? I'm telling you right now Iran doesn't use Sharia accurately.
BTW according to Robert Spencer on JihadWatch, Neda was actually a Christian who supported AHMEDINEJAD and NOT Mousavi.
Thegrandverbalizer19
ReplyDelete"1. We can believe as the Islamic presupposition states. That the practices and rituals of Hajj were in fact laid down by the God of Abraham." I have no problem with this. Because this presupposition is backed by the fact that the Qur'an is revealed knowledge by the author of the universe. (of course that is another subject isn't it).
That is my point; you believe the quran to be true, even though there is no evidence that it is true. As a matter of fact it is contrary to the evidence on hand. Let me state one more time there is NO EVIDENCE for the existence of MECCA shortly before the time of Mohamed. There is no EVIDENCE that Mecca existed prior to a few hundred years before Mohamed. And that is being liberal with the dating.
Now as far as what I can prove of the bible via Historical and Archeological Evidence.
1. We can prove that before the time of the Exodus the Cananites raised and ate PIGS. And then around the time of the Exodus the evidence of Pig farming disappears from the archeological record in the places inhabited by the Hebrews.
2.We can prove from the archeological and historic records that Solomons Temple existed. We can prove that there were treaties and wars of conquest with the Egyptians, Assyrians, and Babalonians and other neighboring tribes and nations. As matter of fact we can prove that there was a HOUSE OF DAVID going back to at least the 8th century BC, and no latter then the 9th century. (Tel Dan Stele) Not a pottery shard. There is also the Mesha Stele which Mentions not only “Mesha's victories over "Omri king of Israel" It names Israel by name, it speaks of the Davidic Alter as well as the oldest mention of YHWY. “ I took [the ves-]-sels of Yahweh, and I dragged them before Kemosh.”
3. We can prove from the Historical and Archeological records that the priestly prayers from Numbers 6:24-26 were being recited, prior to the time of Ezra (600 BC). The silver scroll comes to mind. "The YHWY bless you and keep you;" etc... This is not a pottery shard
We can prove that the places, peoples and there practices that are mentioned in the bible did exist. "Do not boil a kid in it's mothers milk" Canaanites used to boil children in Milk.
So what does this all mean?
First it means that something happened in the land of Cannan around the time of the Exodus. Something caused people to stop raising Pigs. People just do not give up a viable food source, one that is robust and easy to raise as pigs without a reason.
Next we can prove that there were Kingdoms of Judea, and Israel that really existed. And that there was a TEMPLE that was the center of the relgious life. Not a Black box with a black stone several hundred miles away. In a place that there is no evidence that it even existed at this time.
We can prove from the religious texts the oldest being the Silver Scroll that YHWY was the name of the God of these people. That at least this quotation from Numbers "May Yahweh bless you [and] keep you. May Yahweh cause his face to shine" existed prior to the Babylonian exile. Again this is not a pottery shard.
Finally we can prove that Israel and the House of David existed, and that YHWY was the name of their GOD (Not Allah.) prior to the 8th Century.
What can you prove, besides that you have a presupposition that Abraham set up worship around a black box and black stone at a place hundreds if not thousands of miles from where events actually took place. A place that there is no historical record of even existing. Proving that you have a presupposition is not proof that your presupposition is true.
Ibn said...
ReplyDeleteFatTurd: NO MENTION OF MECCA, KABBA worship etc... prior to Islam.
Are you saying there is no historical references to Mecca or Kaaba prior to Islam?
Ibn I do not believe I stuttered sir. THERE IS NO, LET ME SAY IT AGAIN THERE IS NO HISTORICAL OR ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF MECCA PRIOR TO 400 AD.
I don't think I can be any clearer then that.
FatFool:Let me state one more time there is NO EVIDENCE for the existence of MECCA shortly before the time of Mohamed. There is no EVIDENCE that Mecca existed prior to a few hundred years before Mohamed. And that is being liberal with the dating.
ReplyDeleteThere is no evidence. Therefore it doesn't exist. According to Fatman's absurd logic: Absence of evidence is the same as evidence of absence. As Borat would say, "Great success!"
There is no need for me to go into Patricia Crone's revisionism of Islamic history (which is where Fatman got his absurd claim from even though he won't admit it) since it has long been debunked by her peers. It seems that Fatman is yet to catch up with mainstream scholarship on Islam which rejects the views of Crone and her cronies. Fatman is just too fat to get off his fat butt and do some real research. Fat!
Meanwhile, interested readers may wish to read the following scholarly critique of Crone's work at islamic awareness, titled "Arabia without spices: An Alternative Hypothesis".
Neal Robinson also deals with revisionist claims in his book.
Time for a fat break!
ThewomanofTruth
ReplyDeleteI don't believe I called you stupid direclty. But I could be wrong. I do believe it was more like I pointed out to you that Islamic doctrine declares woman to be half that of a man and deficient in there relegion.
Or maybe I said there is no such thing as a stupid question only stupid people who ask questions. Or maybe I made note of a observation that many people have made. And that is the people who revert to Islam are the shallowest thinking people I have ever encountered. They are easily deceived, they seek out new ways to be deceived.
Or I might of said "Stupid is as stupid does"
Either way if you could provide a reference that would be most helpful.
Now as far as you wanting to debate me on the age of Aisha. I believe you are a denier. What that means is you will deny all the evidence from Aisha's own words to support your position. Now here is the problem.
I bleieve you are a sunni muslim. That means you beleive that Aisha is the mother of the believers and that she was a great scholar in Islam. I guess the mother of the believers and the greatest scholar in Islam was just to stupid to know how old she was when Mohamed came to her bed.
Ibn
ReplyDeleteYou quote BORAT, wow we are really digging deep.
I hate to disapoint you but I have never read Patricia Crones work. And that is not were I got my information from.
And absense of evidence is just that absence of evidence.
You Muslims make the claim that these pagan rights were practiced during the time of Abrham, ok prove it. Demonstrate this as I have demonstrated the existence of Israel, the David Kingdom, the Solomons Temple the name of YHWY as Israel's GOD etc... etc...
Until then you only have your presupposition and thats all you have.
Fatman, go to AOMIN . org, james White has just "slandered" Walid Shoebat for deceiving Christians. You know who Walid Shoebat is? He is the friend of David wood, a real feature guest on ABN , Sam's best TV station.
ReplyDeleteI didn't expect that from Dr White, but it's a good move, but the road is still long.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLOL and here is yahya again: "ohhh you have a question? i will direct you to my brand spanking new article, fresh off the keyboard"
ReplyDeleteFatMan reading the article: "what in the world?! this is NOTHING about what i asked"
FatMan talking to Yahya: "but yahya, that article did not answer the question about (insert question)"
Yahya responds: "FatMan your claims have already been refuted in THIS (same article from before) article"
FatMan: "no they werent"
Yahya: "haha! i will include that in my new article (there is no new article)"
2 years later
FatMan "so yahya, did you ever get around to that article?"
Yahya: "your claims have already been answered in THIS (exact same article) article!"
dancing and dancing and dancing
u muslims gotta stop watching and quoting films like Borat and listening to music like Korn...
ReplyDeleteno wonder all these 13 yr olds are converting to islam.
1moreMuslim
ReplyDeletecan you provide a link to the page where James White "slanders" Walid Shoebat cuz i looked on AOMIN.ORG and could not find it, but i did find this:
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, September 30 (CDN) — Islamic extremists killed a Christian lawyer, his wife and their five children in northwestern Pakistan this week for mounting a legal challenge against a Muslim...
Police found the bodies of attorney and evangelist Edwin Paul and his family on Tuesday morning (Sept. 28)...
The victim and his wife Ruby Paul, along with their five children ages 6 to 17, had been shot to death.
The post titled "As you worship today"
1moremuzzie,
ReplyDeleteDr. White corrected Shoebat. That's not the same as slander. For slander you will have to look at Yahya-every-other-post-slings-mud-at-Sam-Snow.
Or you might try Ibn. He has admitted that he has learned how to slander. Since he admits to being a slanderer, we have good reason to believe that when he accuses Sam of teaching him how to do it that he is just doing what he is self-admittedly good at: slander.
The Heart of a Muslim Revealed:
ReplyDeleteIbn said:
"I wish I were a Christian like you Anonymous. I could lie, drink, fornicate, molest and do all sorts of things Islam forbids me to do."
That's right. Ibn has a dark, sinful heart. He secretly wishes and longs to do the things he (falsely) pretends are okay in Christianity. He wishes he could lie, fornicate and molest children.
With a heart like that, is there any question why Ibn is a Muslim?
With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
ReplyDeleteSo Fatman as regards to my questions about the prayer and the sacrifice mentioned in said text there will be no response?
I also have noticed that you jumped on ibn and sam for not giving references. However in the entire response directed at me not one source was quoted.
Again inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.
Your stance on Christmas is noted. Again if I was a spirit filled Christian I would want to distance myself from the practice.....
"We are only following what we found our fathers doing" < Lo! Even though they were in manifest error.
"Nay, but we found our fathers doing so."" [Holy Qur'an chapter 26:70-74]
I also did not get a definition of Christmas from you. What does "Christmas" mean? Who first coined this word and what is it's etymological root?
You know the Bible does indeed mention Ishmael and Hagar (may Allah be pleased with them both) and does mention they went out into the dessert and that's it case closed.
We can assume that these people actually did live for some time as far as what happened to them it's a matter of dispute or speculation (for non believers).
There is nothing odd about believing that Abraham traveled great distances I mean the Bible says he was born in Ur (Iraq).
The Bible says the Magi (people from Persia) came to visit Jesus. Yes people did travel by camel and foot great distances.
It's amazing that you people use revisionist history when attacking Islam, but if we appeal to people to the same people in the west (oh liberal scholarship is cried out loud) again inconsistency.
One last thing fatman if i may?
ReplyDeleteA correction where you have misrepresented the Bible is in order.
You said,
"We can prove that the places, peoples and there practices that are mentioned in the bible did exist. "Do not boil a kid in it's mothers milk" Canaanites used to boil children in Milk."
This is a gross misunderstanding. The 'kid' that is referenced is talking about goats. That you do not boil a goat in it's own mother's milk.
There is much discussion about this among the Rabbi.
If the text was taken in the way you meant it it would portray your God has more cruel than what he is already portrayed.
For example If I don't boy the kid(children as you misunderstand) in the mother's milk I could still boil it nonetheless!
"Then there is presented this very specific law: you may not boil a kid in its mother's milk. To paraphrase, you may not eat a young goat that has been cooked in the milk of its own mother. This specific statement is the foundation of the entire halakhic prohibition against mixing dairy and meat foods."
You can read about that here:
http://www.kolel.org/pages/5762/reeh.html
Now we all make simple mistakes from time to time, but fatman if you are able to make errors like this it is going to be very challenging for me at least to take seriously the archeological claims you make against Islam and for Christianity.
May Allah guide us to what Allah loves.
corrections in my spelling.
ReplyDeleteIf the text was taken in the way you meant it it would portray your God has more cruel than what he is already portrayed.
the word HAS above should be AS
For example If I don't boy the kid(children as you misunderstand) in the mother's milk I could still boil it nonetheless!
BOY should be BOIL
thefatman ,
ReplyDeleteYou want proof that idols were introduced to the kaabah?
'..According to Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar, Muhammad The Holy Prophet (1969),
About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one ʻAmr ibn Lahya ibn Harath ibn ʻAmru l-Qays ibn Thalaba ibn Azd ibn Khalan ibn Babalyun ibn Saba, a descendant of Qahtan and King of the Hijaz, more usually called Amr ibn Luhayy, had put an idol called Hubal on the roof of the Kaʻabat. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraysh before Islam."..'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal)
Islamic Awareness has an article about your claim of '..either way there is NO proof, NO REFERENCE, NO MENTION OF MECCA, KABBA worship etc... prior to Islam.
The link : http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html
A simple google will do the trick. Look like you are not interested in the truth except to drown yourself in your delusions of Islam. Does this mean that you will now retract your statement that the kaabah is pagan?
Now you are playing dumb. Gen 28:19 , jacob made a stone pillar and poured oil on it as he dreamed god was at that place and he made the stone pillar was a symbol of god's house. Is this paganism?
Whether christianity is NOT dogma / pillar of faith it does not matter. Christians celebrate 25 dec which is actually 'sun god day'. You can claim whatever you want to claim. Looking at it from a logical standpoint , christians hijacked a pagan celebration and call it their own. It still remain a pagan celebration no matter how you window dress it.
thegrandverbalizer19
ReplyDeleteYou are right I did not site any sources, I just assumed that stating the actual Stele or Scroll that the information is found in would be sufficient. I forgot my audience were Muslim. So below I have listed some sites where you can find most of the information. For the most part I have used every Muslims favorite source WIKIPEDIA. It seems to hold special authority for Muslims. Some times even more then Islamic Scholars. So below are the sites.
Sources
Absence of Pig bones in Cannan.
Iron Age I
Pig Bones
Egyptian Mention of Israel as a people
Merneptah Stele (1213 to 1203 BC)
Merneptah Stele
Mesha Stele
Tel Dan Stele
Silver Scroll
Now as to your assertion that the mention of “Boiling a Kid in it’s Mothers Milk” refers to a goat, yes the Hebrew word for goat is the same as KID. However this does not take away from the fact that a huge library was found containing Ugarit text. In these text a Canaanite practice was described in which a “KID IS BOILD IN IT”S MOTHERS MILK” . So this sheds some light on the prohibition.
The later prohibition about mixing meat and dairy comes in the TALMUD and not from the bible. There is a Karaite Jew who gives a wonderful presentation on this. But for the moment I forgot his name but I will get back to you on that.
Now what does this all mean. It means that historically, geographically, the worhsipers of YWHY not ALLAH were in the region known as Canaan, not North western Arabia. They worshiped YHWY distinct from all the other GODS in the region. They were a people who later became a KINGDOM. This worship was centered around a TEMPLE not a black box with a black stone in what would later become modern day Saudi Arabia.
Now for you to prove your presupposition that the Worshipers of YHWY were really in North Western Arabia, worshiping a god called ALLAH by circumebulating a black box with a black stone in it. By kissing a black stone, by throwing rocks at pillers, by running to and fro here and there. Then you need to provide some evidence. Show me a STELE, or a clay document, or anything dating prior to the First century AD. Show me some kind of archeological evidence like Pig Farms suddenly disappearing from the archeological record. Unless you can do that then you only have your presupposition and that is all you have.
As far as the story of Hagar, and Ishmeel, we know the place that this happened at because of the “ARCHELOGICAL EVIDENCE” and this is nowhere near what would later be called Mecca.
sam1528 said...
ReplyDeleteThank you for siting a wiki source that sites from a book written by a Muslim in 1969. What is his source for this?
I give you wiki sites that give you actually pictures of hard archeological finds. Hard as in STONE, dried CLAY and silver etc...
Now getting to your site of Islam Awarness. Lets take a look at some of the information revealed there in.
"Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians"
Hmmm so there was a temple between two people somewhere in the ancient mid east, with a "SUPERIOR SACTUARY" OHHHH YEHA IT HAS TO BE MECCA, because Mecca had a black box with no roof and a black stone. Now thats at temple????????????????????
I'm not even going to get into the D G Hogarth, and G E Von Grunebaum theories on Ptolemey.
I'm sorry normally I like Islam Awareness but even the author who is a Physicist by trade I believe couldn't stomach this desperate display of nonsense. He copies and pastes from other sites lol.
My favorite is Beca in the bible. Hey Beca sounds like Mecca so it must be. Yeahhhhh oh so sorry we know where the valley of Beca actually is and it no where near north western Arabia. Or Mecca used to be Beca but it was changed by someone, somewhere we don't know but take our word for it because it sounds good.
The desperateness. AGAIN SHOW ME HARD EVIDENCE. A Stele, a Gif, a clay tablet something that demonstrates the Worshipers of YHWY actually worshiped Allah around a Black Box with a black stone.
Now getting back to Christmas, for arguments sake Christians incorporate a holiday that was celebrated by pagans. You keep saying it was the SUN God, actually Winter Solstice festivals are universal especially in the northern latitudes. But that is beside the point.
So they incorporate this festival to entice pagans to Christianity. They do not make it Dogma, or make it a tenant of belief. But some how this is the same Mohamed incorporating the Pagan rituals or Hajj, Ramadan, etc.. and making it central to the faith of Islam? As a mater of fact unless you believe in HAJ, and RAMADAN you can not becalled a Muslim. Scratch head at this Islamic logic.
Well I think I am done with this thread. Unless you Muslims can come up with some kind of HARD evidence either archelogical, or historical. Not the nonsense of taking vague references of a Temple with a "SUPERIOR SANCTUARY" Or words that resemble Mecca so it must be Mecca. I have to say this conversation is done.
In conclusion you have NO EVIDENCE. ONLY SPECULATION.
Anonymousing refering to the dramatized conversation between myself and Yahya Snow
ReplyDeleteMy friend it is better then that.
He invites me to Islam says "I have nothing to loose" When I demonstrate to him from the Bible that I have everything to loose by leaving the assured salvation of Christ. His response, I was quoting someone from a pulpit and using Greek Philosophy and he has brove from the bible that the Doctrine of Original Sin is false.
He then sites EZ 18. When I point out to that EZ 18 is not dealing with the doctrine of Original SIN. And that Christians believe in what EZ 18 teaches. That we will be accountable for our own sins and not anything our father's have done, or anything that our children have done. And in the same way we will not be saved by any righteousness that our fathers or Children have done.
He responds with and this is a quote "I KNOW EZ18 is NOT talking about your concept of OS"
So if he knows that EZ 18 is not talking about the concept of Original Sin then how can EZ refute the doctrine of Orginal Sin?
He then asks me to use my mind and think, use logic he says quite a few times.
Oh and after I spend a great deal of time quoting passages from The Old Testament Gen and Psalm. He accuses me of using "GREEK PHILOSOPHY" And of course he then asks me to "THINK.... USE LOGIC.... USE MY BRAIN...." etc...
By the way YAHAY SNOW I am still waiting for your response as to Why Men Sin from a Islamic Point of View. It has been a week now since you said you would respond to me Allah Willing. I guess Allah is not willing. But I guess you will just blame Sam Shamoun and David Wood for the lack of Allahs willingness.
TheFatMan:I hate to disapoint you but I have never read Patricia Crones work. And that is not were I got my information from.
ReplyDeleteIf you haven't got your info from Crone, then you got it from a source that in turn got its info from Crone. Only Crone espouses that view. In any case, it is not taken seriously in mainstream scholarship on Islam.
TheFatMan:And absense of evidence is just that absence of evidence.
Trying to be rhetorical are we? Absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. And who says there's no evidence? We have Ptolemy referring to Mecca as "Macoraba" (something which Crone rejects for funny reasons) as well as a reference to the Kaabah by Diodorus Siculus-a 1st century Greek Historian.
FatMan: You Muslims make the claim that these pagan rights were practiced during the time of Abrham, ok prove it.
You are attacking a straw man, FatMan. You are also presupposing your conclusion by calling the Hajj practices pagan. The amusing thing is, you base your the equation between Hajj and paganism based on what Muslim historical literature says about the origin of the practice. Yet, when the same source says that Jews used to honor it but stopped doing so after it was filled with idols, you look over. Funny!
Muslims don't say pagans performed the hajj during Abraham's time. It was Abraham who established the Kaabah and the correct way to perform the Hajj, which pagans in succeeding generations distorted.
FatMan: Demonstrate this as I have demonstrated the existence of Israel, the David Kingdom, the Solomons Temple the name of YHWY as Israel's GOD etc... etc...
Calm down! Diodoru Siculus' reference to the Kabaah is explicit in its position as a temple that is "is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians". All we got to do now is prove that it was Abraham who made it popular.
IBN ohh the desperation. So a Greek writer familar with the grand temple complexes of there cult gods, rights that a little black box with no roof, and a black stone in it'corner. Placing it somewhere in a vast, vast area of the middle east is some how the KABA? Only a Muslim would make this conclusion.
ReplyDeleteAlso no mention of what this "TEMPLE" looked like. NO mention of a BLACK STONE, no Mention of a BLACK BOX, no description what so ever. Yet this "TEMPLE' is the KABA. WOW.
Absence of BROOF is not BROOF.
Fatman: IBN ohh the desperation.
ReplyDeleteActually, accusations of desperation are a tactic employed by Christians whenever they are cornered in a debate. They tell their opponents "your arguments are so laughable they are not worth my reply" or "I don't see anything you have said in response to my arguments" and so forth, all in an effort to cover up their defeat.
Fatman: So a Greek writer familar with the grand temple complexes of there cult gods, rights that a little black box with no roof, and a black stone in it'corner. Placing it somewhere in a vast, vast area of the middle east is some how the KABA? Only a Muslim would make this conclusion.
In other words, Fatman is saying "Hey, the temple which Diodorus refers to as being esteemed by all Arabians could be any sanctuary!"
Ok, name a few sanctuaries esteemed by ALL ARABIANS.
Ibn
ReplyDeleteI dont have to tell you of any of the many "temples and Santurarys" that existed in Arabia, Africa, and Mesopotamia. Not my JOB. Your Job is to produce a discription of this "Temple and Sanctuary" if it is talking about Mecca.
With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
ReplyDeleteBrother Ibn check mate! Very good point.
Fatman if you do not see that as a valid point that he brought up than your the one who is 'kicking against the goads' so to speak.
Also fatman if you cannot admit that you made an blunder when you said the following,
"We can prove that the places, peoples and THERE PRACTICES that are MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE did exist. "Do not boil a kid in it's mothers milk" Canaanites used to boil CHILDREN in Milk."
You just passed right on over that huh?
By the way something you do not understand about archeology is that even if it supported 95% of what the Bible says it would not be confirmation of 100% of what it says that's obvious.
You see if we find an ascription some where that says there was a person named Solomon that's one thing. Yet this is not a confirmation of everything the Bible claims Solomon did. This much is obvious.
"As far as the story of Hagar, and Ishmeel, we know the place that this happened at because of the “ARCHELOGICAL EVIDENCE” and this is nowhere near what would later be called Mecca."
I'm not a wikipedia guy myself so your going to have try some other sources for your statements above.
thefatman ,
ReplyDeleteYou stated '..Thank you for siting a wiki source that sites from a book written by a Muslim in 1969. What is his source for this? ..'
Didn't you read the footnote for the source? Don't you ever read?
You have been checkmated. In the weblink link of Islamic Awareness it has been stated that Diodorus Siculus (1st century Greek Historian) made reference to the kaabah. You answer? You complained about the author. This is extremely poor. Compare Dr Saifullah to your hero Sam Shamoun. Rational minded people will just shake their heads at the antics and claims made by Shamoun. By the way , what is Sam Shamoun's education level. Did he make thru high school?
In all simplistic terms we have shown that it was the pagans who hijacked the kaabah ~ 400yrs before Prophet Muhammad(saw). Too bad guy , you need to provide proof that the kaabah has always been pagan. Something which you will never be able to do.
You keep on saying its not a dogma / pillar of christianity for the celebration of christimas. Take the challenge , do away with the celebration of 'sun god' day. Simple and straight forward. You can't do that because it is a form of religious celebration , whether you like it or not.
Its your 'last mail' as you do not have the hard evidence to proof that the origins of kaabah was pagan. Do try again , harder the next time.
did revolution muslim sported on abc news?
ReplyDeleteFat: I dont have to tell you of any of the many "temples and Santurarys" that existed in Arabia, Africa, and Mesopotamia. Not my JOB.
ReplyDeleteAnd with that, TheFatMan concedes defeat.
Oh brother. The burden's on you, Ibn. Get a clue.
ReplyDeleteOh I almost forgot, thanks Anonymous. Another tactic employed by Christians when they are cornered in a debate is to shift the burden of proof onto their opponents.
ReplyDeleteIbn\Sam25
ReplyDeleteCheck mate????? Check Mate????
First in regards to "do not boil a Kid in it's mothers milk."
Didnt you read? I gave you the text that the Canaanite practice of boiling a kid in milk is stated. I'm sorry I did enough reserch for you, you can now do you own homework. The prohibition against eating meat with dairy is TALMOOOOD, not biblical.
Now as far as this nonsense of CHECKMATE.
Lets see I provide you with HARD FACTS. And by hard I mean facts written in STONE, SILVER, and HARD CLAY. These HARD FACTS go back well before the time of Mohamed, well before the time of Jesus, one even before the Time of David.
These HARD FACTS state that there was a people called Israel in the land of Canaan, dating back to 1000 BC. These people later developed into a Kingdom with the House of David as it's kingly line, dating back to at least 800 BC and they Worshiped a GOD named YHWY going back at least to 900 BC.
That the book of numbers or at least the priestly benediction from Numbers was being used as far back as 600 BC that mentions their God by name, YHWY not Allah.
The only thing specalative is that when the Israelites came into the land that Pig Farming stopped. I admit this is specalative but given that people would not give up a viable food source especialy as one as robust as Hogs, you would need to come up with a better explination for this.
So this is what I have provided. And what is the response. Some Greek historian writes that somewhere in the land of two ancient people. A area that spans from Africa to Mesopotamia there is a Temple with a "Superior Sanctuary" that the Arabs revere.
There is no description of this "Temple and Superior Sanctuary". No description of what gods or god was being worshiped, really no location given other then it is somewhere between Africa and Mesopotamia. But yet somehow this is refering to the Kaba in Mecca. Yes this is much more conclusive then the evidence I gave in stone, silver and dried clay.
So check mate it is. But let us assume that this Temple and Sanctuary is referring to the Kabba in Mecca. Since no mention of monotheism is mentioned and since we know that the Arabs where definitely Polytheists during this time. Then it refutes your earlier claim that Polytheism was introduced 400 years before Mohamed. WELL DONE MUSLIM WELL DONE. So checkmate Muslims yes checkmate indeed.
Fatman's latest ramble reduces to the following scenario:
ReplyDeleteIbn, "Hey fatman, that's my food you are eating!"
Fatman, "Really? I don't see your name written on it. Unless your name is written on the things you own, that is evidence that it doesn't belong to you. That is also evidence that you don't exist, because if it existed, your name would have been written on it".
Ibn
ReplyDeleteThat's some serious thinking there. Did you come up with that on your own? Carefull now with that kind of thinking you might blow a gasket.
FatMan: That's some serious thinking there. Did you come up with that on your own?
ReplyDeleteNo, I got it from my fat frienemy, YOU.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIBN
ReplyDeleteYou keep comming back to this "Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence"
So I can only conclude since this is your only consistent argument, and since I have shot down all your other nonsense that you admit that there is NO EVIDENCE for the Islamic Presupposition?
Also it seems that the Muslims have retreated into there favorite spider hole. That of denial, insults, bravado claims of victory and just plain old childishness.
So unless you Muslims can come up with something other then speculation, insults, denial or bravado claims of victory to support your position. Then this thread is done. So claim victory and check mate all you want.
FatMan: So I can only conclude since this is your only consistent argument, and since I have shot down all your other nonsense that you admit that there is NO EVIDENCE for the Islamic Presupposition?
ReplyDeleteUsual Christian tactic. "Always have the last say even if you don't have anything to say, so as to give the impression to readers who have not bothered to read the entire debate that you have won, assuming your opponent decides not to reply."
FatMan claims that he has shot down all my claims. I don't recall him naming a few sanctuaries that were grand enough to be esteemed by ALL Arabians. Do you?
Ibn
ReplyDeletesorry i'm not going down that rabit hole and list all the pagan shrines, and temples in Africa, to Mesopotamia. But to quote you "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" lol
Oh well i see this thread is over
So now as I read fatman's comments, he's saying Aisha was stupid as well.
ReplyDeleteI have clear and direct evidence to show Aisha's maturity in which I've posted here before. But unfortunately Christians have a habit of ignoring evidence.
Nice try on the red herring. The Quran says men and women are equal, understand that and stop denying from being corrected.
On the otherhand, your book outright degrades women. I'd say the most sexist book on earth. Good thing many Christians have the false idea that Christianity calls for secularism, otherwise we'd be back to burning women for being "witches" etc.
I will start my comments by saying that I do not know Sam Shamoun personally but I am observing what I have seen online in a forum called PALTALK.
ReplyDeleteMaking it clear that I do not agree with the teachings of Islam, and that I have visted the "hater" rooms often, I can say that Shamoun is no anomally. I'm embarassed that many who call themselves Christian take delight in talking about the claimed sexual deviancies of Mohammad (can we say they happened for sure?)
I believe that it is inconsistent with scripture for any man or woman functioning under God to use foul language, speak in an intentionally offensive manner, sexual or otherwise.
As Christians we're told the Gospel is an offense to those who hear it. I am not convinced we get anywhere by making the matter worse.
Over the course of 7 years on paltalk, I have been cursed at by Muslim men (sorry guys, but it's true) and had them say some sexually perverse things to me, about me, and even about my children.
My faith prevents me from returning the "favor" as it were. And surely Sura 3:110 should be an inducer to Muslims to not speak in such a way as these guys did. Usually my response is to remind them of their own passage.
Be that as it may, I am disappointed in some of what I've heard. I thank God that we have better apologists out there for Christianity and I would encourage you to visit one such website:
http://www.gnfcw.com/islamindex.html
I have met the man who founded this ministry. Yes, he is Christian. He is, in fact, from the Middle East. He is a professor of Islamic Studies at a major University and he is a man of extreme kindness and patience.
He is someone I would recommend if you have questions about the Christian faith. He doesn't, to my knowledge, have time for debates.
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ReplyDelete