Let's dissect this bout of Christian fundamentalism on ABN's "Jesus or Muhammad" show. For those who are unaware, ABN is an internet/satellite TV show which works hard in demonizing Islam and Muslims. It comes complete with wacky "experts" as well.
The show we will look at is entitled: Persecution of Christians in Iraq
Analysis/correction of this video is below
Yahya: This man claims the channel will tell the “truth” about Islam and subsequently nobody will convert to Islam.
ReplyDeleteLol! Wasn't that exactly what Abu Lahab was doing? He used to go around telling people to avoid Muhammad(saw) and call him all sorts of names. Did that stop the spread of Islam?
If these Islamophobic Christian bigots had spent more time doing productive things instead of always getting caught in gay sex scandals or swindling money or espousing lies about Islam, the world would have been a better place.
Two good lectures by Abdul Hakim Murad that I believe are more than relevent to this discussion.
ReplyDeleteChristians - if you can sit through hours of ABN then perhaps, for the sake of balance, you would consider listening to this learned scholar:
Islam and Violence Part 1/9
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtIaQt_26s0
(Christians - take note of the FBI stats in part 1...care to comment?)
Dr. Timothy Winter - Extreme Evangelical Christians 1/4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW6xlMjBjOY
(Christians - take note of the FBI stats in part 1...care to comment?)
ReplyDelete"The threat of terrorism is expected to continue from both international and domestic sources. Internationally, at least two operational trends are evident in the militant Islamic jihad movement. First is a preference for high-casualty, high-profile attacks directed against lower-risk, unofficial, so-called “soft” targets, as traditional military and diplomatic targets become increasingly hardened. - Taken from the fbi terrorist statistic website.
I think that is a far cry from the Earth liberation front or the Animal liberation front setting things on fire, spraypainting building, causing vandalism, or spiking trees.
Go to the FBI website and notice the nature of those other attacks and compare them to the Islamic attacks, and also notice what they "classify" as a terrorist attack (i didint know bank robbery was a terrorist attack).
here is the website: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05
Yawn. Already covered
ReplyDeletehttp://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/
Also
ReplyDeletehttp://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
Indeed I would encourage anyone interested to go take a look:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05#terror_05if
And then scroll down towards the bottom of the page to:
Chronological Summary of Terrorist Incidents in the United States 1980-2005
Makes for interesting reading I think. Does proper scrutiny of this info actually marry with what this anonymous (I'm assuming Christian) commentator has just said?
Apparently, as insinuated by his post, everyone else except the Muslims are merely vandalising public property and spray-painting slogans on the sides of buildings.
Go check it out and decide for yourself
I have to state that there is a great difference between Moses killing his enemies and Muhammad.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of Moses the people in NUMBERS who went to war against him knew as a fact(according to the Bible)about miracles n Egypt,water departing,etc.In the case of Muhammad his enemies,pagans and Jews,had not seen such things.So the enemies of Moses were guilty.This is the whole story:
IDOLATRY BY THE JEWS WITH WOMEN
NUMB 25:1-3:
"While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel yoked themselves to the BAAL OF PEOR. And the LORD’s anger burned against them."
THEY ARE PUNISHED:24,000 die by the plague:
NUMB 25:5:
"So Moses said to Israel’s judges, “Each of you must put to death those of your people who have yoked themselves to the BAAL OF PEOR"
NUMB 25:8-9:"Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000."
THEN:
NUMB 25:17-18:
“Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them. 18 They treated you as enemies when they DECEIVED YOU IN THE PEOR INCIDENT involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of that incident.”
THE BATTLE IS WON AND PNISHMENT DONE:
Already all the men were killed in the battle in NUMB 31:7.
NUMB 31:15-17:
“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the PEOR INCIDENT, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
KILL EVERY WOMAN WHO HAS SLEPT WITH A MAN
In the context it means those women who were guilty of the idolatry incident.We know because there is a list of the people and things that remained and we have:
NUMB 31:35:
"and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man"
AND ALSO 16,000 extra people(by the context it was women who were not virgins but had not participated in the PEOR INCIDENT):
NUMB 31:40:
"16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32."
NUMB 31:46-47:
"and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle."
ABOUT THE BOYS KILLED
according to Christian theology God created life and can take it away(by disease,accident,natural disaster,or in some few cases,through a human agent).We know:
1.Those children went to heaven.
2.The mothers of those children,knowing the power of Yahweh,would have known and been told their children were in a better place.
RAPE OF THE VIRGINS?
It is often stated but the fact is that RAPE was PROHIBITED in MOSAIC LAW,so was sex before marriage.God would not order something that would contradict himself.
HOW DID MOSES KNOW WHAT WOMEN WERE GUILTY OR NOT?
It was humanly impossible.The text does not say but the logical conclusion is there was help from God.
@minoria
ReplyDeleteIt's incredible what Christians will try to justify in order to defend their scripture but yet they find the episodes of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) defending himself and the Muslims community against a hostile enemy that, effectively, wanted to ethnically cleanse them from the face of the earth morally reprehensible.
Unbelievable!!!
minoria: I have to state that there is a great difference between Moses killing his enemies and Muhammad.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of Moses the people in NUMBERS who went to war against him knew as a fact(according to the Bible)about miracles n Egypt,water departing,etc.In the case of Muhammad his enemies,pagans and Jews,had not seen such things.So the enemies of Moses were guilty.This is the whole story:
You do realize that you have justified the killing of non-believers, don't you? So much for "Thou shall not Kill".
To Ibn:
ReplyDeleteThe Hebrew word means "You will not murder" not you will not kill.Murder is to kill without reason,a crime.In the OT there are passages that state that Yahweh,after he has made a decision to punish somebody(like in the case of the enemies of Moses,and of God for that matter)would change his decision if there was repentance.If the people who fought Moses had decided to make peace with Yahweh (and they knew he had power)and Moses then the whole thing would hae been avoided.
For example:
"Have I ANY PLEASURE in the DEATH OF THE WICKED, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that HE SHOULD AWAY FROM HIS WAY AND LIVE?" Ezekiel 18:20-23
"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ANYONE, declares the Lord GOD; SO TURN AND LIVE.".
Ezekiel 18:30-32
"I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED, but that THE WICKED TURN FROM HIS WAY AND LIVE; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:7-11
@Yahya
ReplyDeleteAbout the whole cursing thing , it actually shows christian hypocrisy to the best ! and how lame most of their arguments are.
This is sura 1:7
"the path of those whom Thou hast favored. Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. "
in some tafsirs , it is mentioned that the path that angers God is Judaism (the jews) , and those who went astray are the Christians , this is all based on a hadith.
from this point islamophobes make the ridiculous claim that Muslims are being brainwashed by Sura 1 5 times a day , tought cursing and tought hate....etc , believe me yahya I've seen some very absurd arguments being made from this verse.
The answer is simple , first of all what is Sura 1 ? it's basically a humble sura used in prayer we Muslims use to reach out to God (and given to us by God through the Quran) , so it's from our point of view as God wants it to be.
2nd , what is that verse talking about ? The Muslim when reciting Sura 1 is asking God to keep him on the straight path , meaning the correct theology , from our point of view Judaism and Christianity and both false , I dont see any curse or hate teaching here.
So what is wrong with asking God not to let me follow the path of Christianity or Judaism (since from my point of view they are false) ? I dont see anything wrong with that , only islamophobes can .
This is how I usually answer this stupid objection , yahya if you have another answer I would love to hear it for my education.
Note : In other tafsirs , there are other explanations to whom is mentioned in Sura 1:7
minoria: Murder is to kill without reason,a crime.
ReplyDeleteIf murder is to kill without a reason, then you would not consider honor killing as murder since it involves killing to preserve honor?
hahahahaha minoria is going round in circles. they just dont know how to justify the brutality in the OT and revelation so they just make it up as they go along. i used to love it when minoria (aka robert and muslim hater belives we are worse than athiest according to one thread over at AM)used to comeover at pauls blog and try to debate, but his method is preaching and reinterpreting the bible but debating he never did. . i mean when i read his explanation forthe killings by moses i really did lolololol because the bible like most christians claims dosent back it up. seriously minoria this is why christianity is declining so many closet liberals like you who hate what the old testament God does but cannot really say it so you come up with the most absurd justifications.and your wishy washy usage of the golden rule ( a rule that is in every religion) is the very definition of a liberal. this is why you have gay marriages,abortion,prostitution every immorality in the christian west is because christianity is a wishy washy religion that contradicts itself on every page.also minoria you say the boys went to heaven!!! what a liar you are,augustine of hippo probably the greatest theologian in christianity respected by both protestants ,catholics,eastern orthodox,copts etc stated that unbaptised babies go to hell.this view is still held by many protestants,thomas aquinas stated he hoped they go to a neutral place meaning he wasnt sure. so how on earth without reference can you say thoseboys are in heaven when they were so brutally killed when the God of Augustine,calvin,hobb et al see's no problem damning babies to eternity of hell??? you my friend are a complete waste of time,i really dont know why i respond to you.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@anonymous (the one whom addressed me)
ReplyDeleteYes, I have a similar understanding - thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.
To be fair they too did mention the last verse being in reference to the Jews and Christians. So the ghairil maqdoobi alaihim is concerning the Jews whilst the waladdaalleen is regarding the christians.
But as you mention that is no curse either.
The first anonymous sent over a link to Shk Abdul Hakim's lecture. Last night I listened to it whilst failing to combine all 4 parts into one. God willing I will try that again at and reupload the lecture in one piece.
Sorry, I digress...in his lecture he mentions the fundamentalist Christians believing we (the Muslims) are going to be smitten by Jesus at the end times.
Now, they have this theology BUT object to us believing they are astray and our prayer to God to save us from the misguidance our christian brothers are in.
What's wrong with that...absolutely nothing - as you say.
I wonder if anybody was befooled by their "lame" argumentation...
The Christians need to understand their version of monotheism is not pure monotheism. They seem to be playing games here in presenting a loophole type of argument to keep their trinity. Despite all their protestations the Jews would claim their trinity to be incompatible with the Shemar and Muslims would denounce it as shirk.
They have added a prophet and an angel to God and claimed all three to be one. Sneaky BUT NOT agreeable with GOD!!!
Christians...please think
It was stated by anonymous:
ReplyDelete"If murder is to kill without a reason, then you would not consider honor killing as murder since it involves killing to preserve honor"
So preserving honor is more important than a human life?Of course not.
To Maratsafin:
You say I am going in circles.It means I began at A then went to B and ended up in A.That is a CIRCULAR ARGUMENT.
When I commented of Paul's blog I gave the details why the OT says the Messiah would be Yahweh in the flesh.The reasons.I knew later on there would be "the Christians copied from the pagans,or Jesus as God was invented,a legend,he never claimed it,etc"
They were never argued against by Paul,they can't be.That was why there was no debate.
To preach is to say:"X is true".
To debate is to say"X is true for reasons A,B,C."
Hello Marat:
ReplyDeleteYou say I try to justify that Moses killed many.So then for you it was wrong,ok,no problem.The text says clearly those killed(and 24,000 were Jews):
1.Offended God(no reinterpretation here,the text is clear)
2.They knew for a certainty about authentic miracles that Yahweh was real(no reinterpretation here)
2.Other passages in the OT(I quoted some of them)say God wants the WICKED to repent.(no reinterpretation here,the text is clear)
4.So for you God punishing the wicked who offended him and did not repent on time(accepting you condemnation)is bad.
Hello Marat:
ReplyDeleteYou quoted Augustine who said children were sent to hell.Aquinas,who speculated on limbo for unbaptized children.
THE OT SAYS CHILDREN DONT KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG(no reinterpretation here,text is clear)
ISAIAH 7:16:
"for BEFORE the boy KNOWS ENOUGH to reject the WRONG and choose the RIGHT, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste"
PSALM 16:10-11 TAKS OF A BETTER PLACE FOR THE GOOD(NO REINTERPETATION HERE)
" because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
nor will you let your FAITHFUL ONE see decay.
11 You make known to me the path of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence,
with eternal pleasures at your right hand."
THE FAITHFUL ONE
By the context it mean a HOLY PERSON.One who has repented of his sins(or never sinned,like CHILDREN).No reinterpretation here,what we have is...ONE PASSAGE gives us more details about ANOTHER PASSAGE on a SIMILAR THEME
DAVID in a passage hints of going to a another place(heaven?)where his DEAD CHILD is:
ReplyDelete2 SAMUEL 12:23
"But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I WILL GO TO HIM(note:the dead child), but he will not return to me.”
JONAH AND GOD TELLING HIM HE CARED ABOUT NON-JEWS
JONAH 3:10(about the people of Nineveh,capital of Assyrian empire)
"When God saw what they did and how they TURNED AWAY FROM THEIR EVIL WAYS, he RELENTED and did not bring on them the DESTRUCTION HE HAD THREATENED "
No reinterpretation here,the text is clear.In the case of Moses' enemies,it's true the order was to fight and kill them,but based on this passage one sees if they had made peace with Yahweh,it would have been suspended.
LATER:
JONAH 4:1-10:
"But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, “Isn’t this what I said, LORD, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”
4 But the LORD replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”
5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a leafy plant[a] and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “It would be better for me to die than to live.”
9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?”
“It is,” he said. “And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.”
10 But the LORD said, “You have been concerned about this PLANT, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I NOT HAVE CONCERN for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who CANNOT TELL THEIR RIGHT HAND FROM THEIR LEFT —and also many animals?”
DAVID in a passage hints of going to a another place(heaven?)where his DEAD CHILD is:
ReplyDelete2 SAMUEL 12:23
"But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I WILL GO TO HIM(note:the dead child), but he will not return to me.”
JONAH AND GOD TELLING HIM HE CARED ABOUT NON-JEWS
JONAH 3:10(about the people of Nineveh,capital of Assyrian empire)
"When God saw what they did and how they TURNED AWAY FROM THEIR EVIL WAYS, he RELENTED and did not bring on them the DESTRUCTION HE HAD THREATENED "
No reinterpretation here,the text is clear.In the case of Moses' enemies,it's true the order was to fight and kill them,but based on this passage one sees if they had made peace with Yahweh,it would have been suspended.
LATER:
JONAH 4:1-10:
"But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, “Isn’t this what I said, LORD, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”
4 But the LORD replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”
5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a leafy plant[a] and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “It would be better for me to die than to live.”
9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?”
“It is,” he said. “And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.”
10 But the LORD said, “You have been concerned about this PLANT, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I NOT HAVE CONCERN for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who CANNOT TELL THEIR RIGHT HAND FROM THEIR LEFT —and also many animals?”
yes minoria i know declare you a christian heretic, i mean you are no catholic so dismissing aqaunis is no problem for you but to dismiss augustine and the protestants reformers,its a goodthing you over on this blog making your unbiblical assumptions, assumptions which go against the teaching of the original sin which was concieved by paul and eleborated on to much greater degree by augustine when he was trying to refute pelagius's denial of it. your quotations are the reason why the new testament and OT are not in harmony,why there is no reason for the sacrifice of jesus, why God dosent need blood for forgiveness. You without knwing have just refuted your religion, I have hopes for you still. Regarding your lame defense of Moses it dosent warrant a respoonse.
ReplyDeleteHello Marat:
ReplyDeleteI don't know why you call me a heretic.Ok,why should I reject Augustine?
I quoted from the OT,for us JESUS was GOD,God giving us info.
WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT CHILDREN AND HEAVEN
Certainly AUGUSTINE read this:
MARK 10:13-15(also in MATT 19:13-14/LUKE 18:15-17)
"People were bringing LITTLE CHILDREN to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them.
14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the KINDOM OF GOD BELONGS TO SUCH AS THESE. 15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a LITTLE CHILD WILL NEVER ENTER IT.”
So yes,Jesus(God)said children go to heaven.
REVELATION
You implied it was violent.Yes,it is,but it's NOT like Moses killing his enemies in a very important sense.Revelation is DESCRIPTIVE(even in many details METAPHORICAL-SYMBOLICAL),and NOT PRESCRIPTIVE.
What do I mean by "descriptive".I mean it says "such a thing will happen,etc".It is not prescriptive since it does NOT SAY:
1."Kill the enemies of Christ."
2."Kill the freinds of the Antichrist."
ON CONSISTENCY
ReplyDeleteI understand the argument leveled against David by talking about Moses killing his enemies.David's argument would be inconsistent if BOTH Mohammed's and Moses'situation were the same.That is:
1.Moses did NO miracles at all,Muhammad did none.
2.Moses killed people and so did Muhammad.
3.David criticized Muhammed for killing,he doesn't do the same for Moses=inconsistency.
WHAT DOES THE KORAN SAY?
It says MOSES did MIRACLES(it even talks of Allah drowning the Pharaoh and his army).The OT says the same.
AN EXAMPLE OF HOW END-TIMES PASSAGES CAN BE USED TO PREDICT THINGS(deduction method)
ReplyDeleteJOEL ROSENBERG (Jewish and Christian,his latest novelis "The 12th Imam"about the appearence of the 12th Imamin Iran) wrote his first novel THE LAST JIHAD before 9/11.He used his imagination plus EZEKIEL.In the novel a plane is hijacked by terrorists in the name of Islam.The US goes to war against SADAM HUSSEIN because he was supporting them,Saddam is overthrowned and the US occupies IRAK.Again,he simply used his imagination.
EZEKIEL 38:1-9
It talks of an invasion of Israel by several nations,including Persia.ROSENBERG noticed EGYPT (a Muslim nation)was NOT mentioned.It didn't surprise him too much,Egypt had made peace with Israel in 1979.But to his amazament IRAK was NOT included among the invaders of ISRAEL(at the time SADAM was in power.)
He asked himself WHY was IRAk(or BABYLON as it was called in the Bible) was NOT among the invaders.
Ok,Sadam had been OVERTHROWN or died of natural causes and had been replaced,but surely if he was replaced by ANOTHER MUSLIM ruler then the new ruler would be forced by the people or would do it willingly,to participate in attacking Israel.
UNLESS there was a really good reason like maybe IRAK had been INVADED and OCCUPIED by the US.Why would the US invade Irak at all?Rosenberg thought because of oil?Yes,but that would not convince the American people too much.But if a BIG TERRORIST ATTACK that killed MANY that the US government linked to being helped by Sadam happened then the public would support the war.As I said he used his imagination plus Ezekiel and it coincided.If that's not enough EZEKIEL 38 says PERSIA is going to be involved in attacking Israel,and in 2005 AHMADINEJAD got into power.
To finish with the theme,so that Muslims won't think David Wood was being inconsistent,I said he(and I)have the opinion that Muhammad did not do miracles.In my case it is because it literally appears like 9X in the Koran.I wrote an article quoting every single case:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.avraidire.com/2010/10/a-plusieurs-reprises-le-coran-dit-que-mahomet-etait-incapable-de-faire-un-miracle/
LET US SAY HE DID DO MIRACLES
David's case would STILL BE consistent.I will explain.A Muslim in avraidire.com told Muhammad did do miracles:
1.The Koran.
2.Splitting the Moon(in the Koran).
(based on authentic hadiths)
No problem so Moses did miracles and so did Muhammad.Moses killed,Muhammed also.David condemns Muhammad but not Moses=INCONSISTENCY
THE CHRISTIAN SITUATION
In Judaism and Protestantism the Devil can also do miracles.Muhammad instituted,in the name of God,a religious ceremony where a person kisses a black stone.Again,one accepts Muhammad did real miracles(like Moses)but that part of the ceremony is for us non-Biblical.So ok,Muhammad did miracles but God would not have told him to do something non-Biblical.
So we have 2 miracle-workers(Moses and Muham.)but David would still be consistent in complaining about Muhammed and killing enemies since for him the miracles were not from God.
RUMORS OF THE 12TH IMAM
There are these rumors that Ahmadinejad is secretly talking with the 12th imam.They could be:
1.Invented by the enemies of Ahmadinejad to ridicule him.(Machiavelli strategy)
2.Invented by Ahmadinejad and his people to give him prestige(Machiavelli strategy)
3.A convincing CHARLATAN can be tricking Ahmadinejad(but no real miracles)
4.A real miracle-worker has appeared and claims to be the 12th imam.
JOEL ROSENBERG says such a scenario might happen,not that it will,it might.So in his novel there is a real miracle-worker who says he is the 12th imam,and convinces the Iranian leaders.In the OT and NT there are passages that pseudo prophets can and WILL DO miracles.I hope this answers any questions as to why I think David was not using deception.