Sunday, 10 April 2011

Discussed: Variant Readings within the Bible and the Quran

Some internet Christian apologists have been shifting the goal posts in their conspiratorial attempts to attack Caliph Uthman’s control of the Quranic text as well as the variant readings of the Quran.

As usual, our Christian counterparts operate an unwitting double standard due to their ignorance of Old Testament (as well as New Testament) textual criticism as well as Quranic preservation

Variant readings in the Gospels

Previously, we have seen the New Testament (Gospel) variants arose due to dishonest scribes or incompetent scribes – so much so that our Christian friends, now, do not know which variants represent the original wording of the Gospel writers and which were due to scribal errors/forgeries.Christian apologists are now beginning to admit this difficult situation [1]

Christians misrepresent the Dead Sea Scrolls

At times, our Christian friends do misrepresent the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls as a wholesale confirmation of the Old Testament text – it is not!

Geza Vermes writes:

The Dead Sea finds partly confirm and partly question the reliability of the wording of the Bible handed down by Jewish tradition. On the one hand, as was shown in chapter VI, the Qumran Scripture is substantially identical with that passed on by the synagogue from the time of Jesus to the present age. [2]

Note: Vermes is not confirming the Dead Sea finds corroborate entirely with the present day OT (substantially). More importantly, he is not denying any OT corruptions prior to the first/second century CE either. Jeremiah 8:8 gives us an indication of the depth of corruption in the earlier days of the OT:

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? [NIV, Jeremiah 8:]

Variant Readings in the Old Testament

Geza Vermes confirms “the Dead Sea Scrolls furnish documentary proof of what has been surmised before, namely that, prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, unity was not achieved and different forms of the Hebrew text coexisted, showing verbal and stylistic variations, additions, omissions and changes in the order of the textual arrangement.” [2]

Vermes does suggest the OT variants may not be due to corruptions:

Before the Qumran discoveries, we presumed the Samaritan Bible (restricted to the five books of the Law of Moses), the form of the Hebrew Bible from which the ancient Greek version, known as the Septuagint, was translated, and the type of the text that was to evolve into the traditional (Masoretic) Hebrew Old Testament, existed side by side in different social groups.


Qumran has corroborated this theory and has demonstrated the diversity could obtain in one and the same groups. This phenomenon implies that the variant readings in the biblical text do not necessarily represent corruptions or deliberate alterations, but can just as well, if not better, echo earlier discrete written traditions. [2]

Of course, this theory is more than a little sketchy – partly due to there being no tradition informing us of such being the case as well as to the limitations of Vermes’ conjecture-based argument.

Nevertheless, it is food for thought for our Christian and Jewish friends. Do they want to faith-shatteringly admit the Old Testament variants are proof of corruptions or will they run with the idea of the variants echoing “earlier discrete written traditions”?

I would imagine they would prefer the latter – otherwise they will have to admit the Old Testament’s unreliability is on par with the New Testament.

Variant Readings in the Quran

The variant readings of the Quran are not due to scribal errors or forgeries – unlike the New Testament. The variants of the Quran are meant to exist as supporting tradition teaches us this – unlike the Old Testament.

The hadith reports tell us that the Quran was actually revealed in seven modes (al-ahruf al sab’a). This has been narrated by more than ten of the Prophet’s companions, among them Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ibn Masud, Ibn Abbas and others [3].

Dr M.M. Al Azami counts the companions who have narrated hadiths confirming the Quran was revealed in seven dialects as over twenty [4] So, these variants were known to exist during the lifetime of the Prophet and did not arise due to scribal errors.

In fact, the very nature of the variant Quranic readings being sanctioned by the Prophet [see Bukhari VI, No. 513] has led the renowned authority, Dr M. M. Al-Azami, to favour the word “multiple” reading rather than “variant” reading:

…the Quran’s case differs distinctly because the Prophet Muhammad, Allah’s sole vicegerent for the wahy’s reception and transmission, himself taught certain verses in multiple ways. There is no principle of doubt here, no fog or confusion, and the word ‘variant’ fails to convey this. Multiple is a far more accurate description….” [4]

As you can notice, the Quranic variants (multiple readings) are indeed sanctioned and meant to have existed whilst the variants of the NT and OT are unsanctioned and should not exist. We urge our Christian apologist friends to understand these points of difference and teach them to their respective Christian congregations – let the truth prevail.

Unification

Our Christian apologist friends attempt to make a big conspiratorial deal out Uthman’s control and preparation of a standard copy of the Quranic text but they fail to recognise the inconsistency (as well as the holes in their knowledge) they are operating from as the rabbis controlled the OT text and even unified it.

Unity, produced by Jewish religious authority, was usually sought in times of crisis, and was achieved by the selection of one of the existing text forms and the simultaneous rejection of all other competing versions. Such a deliberate unification is assumed to have been part of the general restructuring of Judaism by the rabbis during the years following the catastrophe of 70 CE, which entailed the loss of the temple and the supreme council of the Sanhedrin as well as the replacement of the aristocratic high priestly leadership of Jewry by rabbis largely of plebeian origin. [2]

Sadly our Christian apologist friends are either unaware of the unification of the OT text and of the strict control the rabbis had over the text or are knowingly operating an inconsistent standard in their attempts to throw conspiratorial mud at the Uthmanic control of the Quranic text – a control which was agreed upon by all the companions of the Prophet.

Conclusion

Simply put, the New Testament variants are the most problematic; not only due to them being borne out of scribal dishonesty and negligence but because the Christian is unable to recognise the forgeries/scribal errors within the text. The text was not controlled and those who were tasked with the preservation of the Gospel accounts never met Jesus.

In addition there could well be future Dr Tischendorf style (Codex Sinaiticus) finds, where whole passages within the Gospels were discovered to be forgeries. Prior to this 19th century find our Christian friends believed those passages to be inspired – now we know they were forgeries [5]. It says something about the Christian belief in the Holy Spirit dwelling within Christians; did the Christians before the 19th century not have the Holy Spirit as they believed what we now know as forgeries to be words inspired by God. Food for thought…

The Old Testament was strictly controlled by the Jewish authorities and does contain variants. The accusations of these variants arising from scribal forgeries/errors are indeed somewhat tempered by Geza Vermes’ theorising so the criticism is less vocal.

Those who “preserved” and “selected” OT texts never met Moses or any of the Prophets. “what constitutes the bible is nowhere strictly defined in the ancient literary sources of Judaism. It was the privilege of the successive religious authorities (Sadducee chief priests, Pharisee leaders and rabbis) to determine the list of books [6]

The Quran has variants – Muslims have known this whilst the Quran was being revealed as the Prophet taught this. The Quran was strictly controlled by authorities, like the Old Testament. However, unlike the OT and NT, the controlling authorities of the Quran were indeed the companions of the Prophet. The statement of the fourth Caliph, Ali (ra), confirms all were in agreement with Uthman’s actions to control the transmission of the Text. [7]

Sadly, Christian apologists overlook these points and inconsistently attempt to present conspiracy theories as to the Uthmanic control of the Quran. The inconsistency comes into play as the OT was “preserved” in a “controlled” environment too. The irony comes into play as the nature of the variants (proven forgeries and errors) within the NT suggests the uncontrolled mode of its “preservation” was disastrous and a controlled mode (which they desperately criticise via conspiracy theories) is superior!

The written text of the Quran was used as an aid for the memory and teaching purposes, thus the Quran was preserved via two modes in a controlled fashion – oral and written – by numerous people who met the Prophet.

May God send his peace and blessings upon all the Prophets referred to above. Ameen

Further reading:

Sexism: A reason to change the Bible?

Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

[1] Debate Review – Does the bible Misquote Jesus (James White – Bart Ehrman)

[2] The Story of the Scrolls, Geza Vermes, Penguin Books, 2010, p214

[3] Ulum Al Quran, Ahmad Von Denffer, The Islamic Foundation, 2003, p112

[4] The History of The Quranic Text from Revelation to Compilation - A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments, M.M.Al-Azami, UK Islamic Academy, 2003, p154

[5] Dr Von Tischendorf discovered the Codex Sinaiticus (from Saint Catherine’s monastery), this codex does NOT contain the last 12 verses in the gospel of Mark (Mark 16:9-20) as well as John 7:53-8:11 amongst other discrepancies. These are believed to be forgeries. Sadder still, Christians, prior to this find believed those words to be faithful to the New Testament.

[6] The Story of the Scrolls, Geza Vermes, Penguin Books, 2010, p99

[7] Ibn Abi Dawud, al Masahif, p22; see also pp 12, 23 (sourced from Sheikh Al Azami, The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, 2003, p94

90 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thing is bible NT canon was not even finalized

Athanasius was first one to quote the current NT books list in 4th CENTURY

No one knows who are writes of bible book
No of books are different over time
versions are different

Anonymous said...

Four Points:

1. No one know who are the so called Inspired Authors of BOOKS OF BIBLE
2. There have been Different canons in Past and even now there are different canons(difference of books)
3. Different Versions with differences of verses and words
4. Books are missing which are now found in old Manuscripts


So bible lacks the basic stuff to declare it book of God

answeringmuslims said...

CAN YOU CHALLENGE DAVID WOOD WRITING

Nevertheless, burning the Qur'an (to me, at least) isn't nearly as offensive as trampling on the United States Constitution. The Qur'an calls for the subjugation or death of American citizens; the Constitution demands our protection, even from our own government. The Qur'an severely limits the rights of women, Christians, Jews, etc.; the Constitution enshrines equal rights for all citizens. The Qur'an has been a constant retrograde force calling people back to the ideals and attitudes of seventh-century Arabia; the Constitution has brought progress both to the United States, and to nations who have imitated us. Strangely, many U.S. politicians (not to mention judges) now find it more prudent to honor the Qur'an than to honor the Constitution.

And here's what's happening. If Muslims weren't murdering so many people in Afghanistan, and Pakistan, and Somalia, and Nigeria, and Sudan, and Europe, and . . . well, you get the picture; and if Western governments weren't behaving in such a cowardly fashion, the world would never have heard of Pastor Terry Jones or Ann Barnhardt. People like Jones and Barnhardt are standing up to condemn Islam's violent teachings because they're sick of Western leaders bowing to Islam. So the next time you're wondering why there's so much "Islamophobia" (where "Islamophobia" simply means "Constitutionally protected criticism of Islam's most horrendous teachings"), look no further than people like Senator Lindsey Graham.

(BTW, regardless of objections you may have to the delivery, this video is a brilliant refutation of the idiotic and delusional nonsense being spouted by U.S. politicians who are unwittingly working to establish Sharia in America

answeringmuslims said...

DAILY MAIL--At least 60 schoolgirls were groomed for sex by workers at seedy takeaways linked to the murder of a 14-year-old girl.

An unpublicised police report produced after 14-year-old Charlene Downes vanished in 2003 found the girls, most if not all white, had been victims of the ‘honey pot’ premises. There were claims last night that the report was suppressed for reasons of political correctness.

Four years later another girl, 15-year-old Paige Chivers, also went missing. Detectives believe she was killed like Charlene, whose body has never been found.

Two Middle Eastern restaurant owners were acquitted over Charlene’s murder in 2007 and the crime remains unsolved.

The pair still run a kebab shop in Blackpool which was also linked to Paige, and she too was identified as a victim of sexual exploitation. Last year police reported that the takeaway was attracting young girls who were being supplied with alcohol and cocaine.

The revelations about the scale of grooming centred around the downmarket cafes comes amid growing concern at disturbing cases involving mainly Asian gangs exploiting young white girls for sex in the Midlands and North of England.

The girls, often from vulnerable homes or in the care system, were befriended by men who showered them with gifts and affection before using them for sex.

Former Home Secretary Jack Straw has said the girls were seen as ‘easy meat’, while David Cameron called on police to follow criminal acts ‘without fear or favour’ wherever the evidence leads.

The Home Office commissioned a nationwide investigation into the problem, which has long been considered taboo by police officers fearful of being branded racist.

Indeed, a former senior detective at Lancashire Police yesterday blamed political correctness for its failure to highlight its 2003 findings in Blackpool.

But the force denied this, saying the report had been available online since 2007 but had never been intended for publication.

Senior officers insisted an intensive programme to break the cycle of exploitation had been a success and that in the last six months 50 of 54 grooming suspects were white.

Shocking claims made in court over Charlene’s murder revealed fears that her body had been put through a mincing machine, with takeaway staff said to have joked that her remains had ‘gone into the kebabs’.

A jury failed to reach a verdict on charges that Jordanian immigrant Iyad Albattikhi had murdered her while his Iranian landlord Mohammed Reveshi had disposed of her body.

A retrial collapsed in 2008 amid failings in the police investigation and the men were paid almost £250,000 each in compensation.

The kebab shop run by Mr Albattikhi and Mr Reveshi has changed its name from Funny Boyz to Mr Beanz. It was refused a hot food licence last year amid fears about ‘sexual activity’ linked to the premises, but the pair blame a ‘police vendetta’ and have appealed.

Following Charlene’s disappearance in 2003, police found more than 60 girls were being groomed for sex by non-white men centred around 11 Blackpool takeaways.


He added: ‘We recognise that in some areas the number of Asian offenders is disproportionate to the population and far from ignoring this, have been tackling the issue head on by working with the local communities, giving presentations to community forums and visiting mosques to raise awareness.’

It was reported yesterday that while most British sex offenders are lone white men, details of court cases in 13 towns showed that out of 56 men convicted of multiple offences of grooming girls for sex, 50 were Muslim, mostly of Pakistani heritage

Anonymous said...

Like always Christians trying to divert the topic :D

Ezek. 23:20 [NIV] There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

NOW see how this other translation change it to make it seems non vulgar

The Message, which reads:

Ezek.23:20 "That whetted her appetite for more virile, vulgar, and violent lovers—stallions obsessive in their lust.

Christians are ashamed of their own bible lolz

Anonymous said...

Majority of books of NT written by person who never even met Jesus i.e. paul

Even now we have multiple bible canons

and in past there were even more

like NT was not even finalized with 4th Century till then ppl were just assuming this is bible or this is not :)


Bart Ehrman writes in the conclusion of the book, "Jesus, Interrupted" :

"Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus and Heaven and Hell are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said. At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries"

Anonymous said...

Wood: The Qur'an calls for the subjugation or death of American citizens; The Qur'an severely limits the rights of women, Christians, Jews, etc.; The Qur'an has been a constant retrograde force calling people back to the ideals and attitudes of seventh-century Arabia;

Since the Quran is copied from the bible, it follows that all those things which Wood accuses the Quran of are ideas derived from the bible. Moreover, since the latter is supposedly the foundation of the US constitution, it follows that the Quran and US constitution are in harmony with each other. Moreover, since Terry Jones is standing up against Islam which is based on the Quran which is just copied from the bible, it follows that ultimately Jones is standing up against the bible.

Michigan Raider said...

Gospel Contradictions:

1) How many generations were there between Abraham to David? Matthew 1:17 lists fourteen generations. Matthew 1:2 lists thirteen generations.

2) Is Paul lying? In Acts 20:35 Paul told people "to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Since Jesus never made such a biblical statement, isn’t Paul guilty of deception?

3) When did the leper become not a leper? (Matthew 8:13 & 8:14) Jesus healed the leper before visiting the house. (Mark 1:29-30 & 1:40-42) Jesus healed the leper after visiting Simon Peter’s house.

4) Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.

5) Was she dead or just dying? (Matthew 9:18) He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead. (Luke 8:41-42) Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.

6) Just what did Jesus instruct them to take? (Matthew 10:10) Jesus instructed them not to take a staff, not to wear sandals. (Mark 6:8-9) Jesus instructed his disciples to wear sandals and take a staff on their journey.

7) When did John find out Jesus was the Messiah? (Matthew 11:2-3) While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the messiah. (Luke 7:18-22) While imprisoned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the Messiah. (John 1 :29-34,36) John already knew Jesus was the Messiah.

8) Who made the request? (Matthew 20:20-21) Their mother requested that James and John, Zebedee’s children, should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom. (Mark 10:35-37) James and John, Zebedee’s children, requested that they should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom.

9) What animals were brought to Jesus? (Matthew 21:2-7) two of the disciples brought Jesus an ass and a colt from the village of Bethphage. (Mark 11:2-7) They brought him only a colt.

10) When did the fig tree hear of its doom? (Matthew 21:17-19) Jesus cursed the fig tree after purging the temple. (Mark 11:14-15 & 20) He cursed it before the purging.

11) When did the fig tree keel? (Matthew 21:9) The fig tree withered immediately. and the disciples registered surprise then and there. (Mark 11:12-14 & 20) The morning after Jesus cursed the fig tree, the disciples noticed it had withered and expressed astonishment.

12) Was John the Baptist Elias? "This is Elias which was to come." Matthew 11:14 "And they asked him, what then? Art thou Elias? And he said I am not." John l:21

13) Who was the father of Joseph? Matthew 1:16 The father of Joseph was Jacob. Luke 3 :23 The father of Joseph was Heli. Christians shall try to LIE and tell you that one is the heritage of Mary and the other Joseph. This is utter bullshit, the Hebrew and Greek cultures NEVER regarded the bloodline of the mother. They were patriarchal societies which only concerned themselves with paternal lineage.

14) How many generations were there from the Babylon captivity to Christ? Matthew 1:17 Fourteen generations, Matthew 1:12-16 Thirteen generations.

15) Matthew 2:15, 19 & 21-23 The infant Christ was taken into Egypt. Luke 2:22 & 39 The infant Christ was NOT taken to Egypt.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Yahya,

Could you please point me to a source listing all the variants of the Quran and the evidence Ultman used to exclude them individually from his official version.

I assume that given your claim that the variants are no secret to Muslims you would be able to quickly reference them in your studies like we Christians do.

Thanks in advance

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya or any of the Muslims.

What does Sahih mean? If a Hadeeth is considered Sahih by scholars what does that mean?

answeringmuslims said...

RIYADH--The husband of a Sri Lankan housemaid working in Riyadh says that his wife has been a victim of sexual assault by at least one male member of the family she has been working for in the Kingdom.

He also claims she was being pimped “house to house” as a prostitute and her proceeds were taken from her.

The 30-year-old woman from Panadura district near Colombo came to the Kingdom on Aug. 29, 2009 to work in a Saudi household. The husband of the woman, Kamal, claims he went to the Sri Lanka Bureau of Foreign Employment (SLBFE) about three months after his wife began working in Saudi Arabia to complain that she was being sexually assaulted by a son in the family.

“Since then no one has taken action to bring her home,” he said. “My wife has been molested by her employer’s son and has been subjected to various forms of torture.”

The Sri Lankan Embassy in Riyadh claims that it is unaware of this case, but that it would investigate.

A senior official from the SLBFE said the bureau receives several complaints daily from the next-of-kin of the domestic aides who are working abroad.

“We cannot come to direct conclusion without consulting both parties,” he said, indicating that he would request the Sri Lankan mission in Riyadh to inquire into this matter.

The most common form of abuse of maids is wage theft and false imprisonment (prohibiting maids from leaving the premises or preventing them from leaving when they express a desire to leave), but incidences of physical and sexual abuse are regularly reported.

The problem of runaway maids is big enough that the missions of labor-remitting countries run shelters for these women.

There are some 500,000 Sri Lankan workers in the Kingdom and more than half of them are housemaids, and the embassy official said most of these maids are treated in a satisfactory manner. (Source)

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Yahya must be busy

Are there any Muslims who can help me with a source documenting the textual variants in the Quran and Ultmans rationale for exclusion in each individual case?

Surely given that the variants are suposedly known to muslins you must have them compiled someplace.

We Christians note the minor textual variants in our scriptures in the margins of our Bibles for all to see. That way we can verify that no Christian doctrine is put at issue by them.

while we are at it.....

I would also be interested in knowing the method that a Jewish Rabbi with out government saction might use in suppressing a variant reading that was considered scripture by a competing group living in a different part of the world.

Such a thing would be nessary for the preservation of the OT to be like that of the Quran.

Anyone have an idea????

If no one comes forward I guess I'll be forced to conclude that what Yahya claimed in his post is willfully inaccurate and I'd sure like to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks in advance

peace

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Michigan Raider,


I to am interested in the subject of contradictions. I’m wondering if you could help me reconcile the following two contradictory statements.

Quote:


prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, unity was not achieved and different forms of the Hebrew text coexisted, showing verbal and stylistic variations, additions, omissions and changes in the order of the textual arrangement.”

and

Our Christian apologist friends attempt to make a big conspiratorial deal out Uthman’s control and preparation of a standard copy of the Quranic text but they fail to recognise the inconsistency (as well as the holes in their knowledge) they are operating from as the rabbis controlled the OT text and even unified it.

End quote:


If I deem your explanation to be unsatisfactory would I be justified in considering the text to which these quotes belong to be fraudulent?

Peace

Anonymous said...

And so it begins.

"Two Muslim women wearing full face veils have been arrested within hours of France's burka ban becoming a law, as they were taking part in a demonstration against the new measure in front of Notre Dame Cathedral in central Paris.

Technically, the women should now face fines of 150 euros (£133), as well as citizenship lessons, but officers involved in the arrest said they were likely to be released "shortly' after being questioned about an "illegal gathering."

"They should not be here demonstrating against anything, least of all the face veil ban," said one officer, who was wearing full riot gear as he stood outside Notre Dame.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8442993/First-arrests-made-hours-after-French-Burka-ban-comes-into-force.html

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow

You said...
"The variant readings of the Quran are not due to scribal errors or forgeries – unlike the New Testament. The variants of the Quran are meant to exist as supporting tradition teaches us this – unlike the Old Testament."

What will you do when I show you from your own "CONSERVATIVE" Islamic sources that this is not the case?

Radical Moderate said...

All is quiet on the western front. What did all the Muslims go off on Jihad training.

Radical Moderate said...

More Isolated incidents of Muslims on Islam.

When are you guys going to admit that you have a problem?

Inocent Man killed by Muslims for Blaspheming your GOD Mohamed.

Lupus el Lobo said...

Congrats Radical Moderate you've single handedly won the debate with muslims. Any time soon there will be a flood of converts to Christianity. :)

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

lobo said

Congrats Radical Moderate you've single handedly won the debate with muslims

I say;

What am I chopped liver? My questions were not answered either.

Peace

Radical Moderate said...

@The Wolf

After reading the blog posts and comments by the Muslims on this blog, I don't think any of them are "Christian Material".

It's not up to us it's up to Christ, and he has high standards.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow and the other Muslims.

Another isolated incident for you.

Christians being burned alive for their faith.

I guess this is how the "Muslim Brothers of Jesus" treat their brothers.

Christians Burned Alive for their faith By Muslims. Allah Akbar

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow and the other Muslims.

Another isolated incident for you.

Christians being burned alive for their faith.

I guess this is how the "Muslim Brothers of Jesus" treat their brothers.

Christians Burned Alive for their faith By Muslims. Allah Akbar

Radical Moderate said...

@Fifth

Your either not Radical or Moderate enough for them :)

Anonymous said...

Dr. Bart Ehrman Sums it all up BIBLE NOT RELIABLE [MUST SEE]

http://www.islamdunktv.com/2011/04/dr-bart-ehrman-sums-it-all-up-bible-not.html

Anonymous said...

Holy Ghost Teach different ppl different bibles

Anonymous said...

I ask all christians to Read about Warsh, Hafs , Nafey etc and understand the muslim belief.

Its not like bible where on version stay one thing and other says different things

one has 66 books other has 73 book

Anonymous said...

A Christian Pastor Burns A Qur'an, Muslims burn Christians.

Burn Baby Burn

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

From you :
https://www.youtube.com/user/mattmahar#p/a/u/0/GQp8POI8sSg

Muslims burning christians?? Really??

This is a copy paste from the comment section of 'mattmahar' (the uploader of the video)

Comment by jkabuyah : '..I know more about the video than you do. The video has nothing to do with chriatians or Muslims. It is a village witchhunt among christians in my home town. Dont tell lies while misinforming Ivorians. Stop your lies or find facts first before posting. I respect human life..'

Catch it before the christian 'mattmahar' who uploadad the video delete it upon realising that his con is up.

The actual video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-xfabHgSGU&has_verified=1

Ha ha , poor radical moderate. You have moved on to dodgy videos I see. You progression is remarkable. 'dodgy maths' to 'dodgy copying' to 'dodgy videos'. What next?? Paul must be so proud of you. You know , 2cor12:16 except that you did not catch anyone

Bro yahya , pls do not delete this post. This is proof that zionist christians like radical moderate will resort to lying to demonise muslims. Extremely poor taste. Radical moderate , anybody with sound mind will be appalled with your latest bout of lying.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Anon said:

one has 66 books other has 73 book

I say:

Do you understand the concept of Apocryphal and Deuterocanonical books? I would be happy to explain it to you if you like. But first you need to respond to my questions above.

An argument about the canonicity of 1st Maccabees is not the same as a disagreement as to whether or not the Gospel of John is Scripture. When you act as if it is it only makes you look ignorant to us Christians.

I’m sure that you don’t want to appear to be both ignorant and incapable of answering a simple challenge.

The ball is in your court

peace

Radical Moderate said...

More Tales from The Islamic side.

From the sick, burning Christians, to the more Bizarre.

Pakistan's Transsexual Tax Collectors.

"Miss your tax deadline in the United States this weekend, and you might get a nasty letter at your door. In Karachi, Pakistan's largest city, you might get Riffee and the gang. They are "transgender" tax collectors -- whose weapons include flamboyancy, surprise -- and a little lipstick."

Only In Islam

Radical Moderate said...

Another Isolated Incident

"An Italian pro-Palestinian activist has been found dead in the Hamas-governed Gaza Strip hours after being abducted...

"He came from across the world, left his country and family and his entire life and came here to break the siege, and we kill him? Why?" asked one of his friends."

The answer to that question is because of ISLAM.

I guess they didn't get Yahya Memo that Muslims are the brothers of Christ. Well to bad but another useful idiot has one the Darwin Award.

Islam In the News Allah is PLEASED

Radical Moderate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Radical Moderate said...

Documentery on Dihimitude of Christians in a Muslim country.

They are forced to live in slums, in garbage dumps, their daughters kidnapped and forced into Islma and married off to Muslim men...

I guess the Egpytian Muslims didn't get Yahya Snows memo that Muslims are the brother of Christ

Muslims showing the love for Christians in Egypt

Radical Moderate said...

Where is Yahya, I hope the evil Christian Jinns didn't get him in his sleep.

Anonymous said...

Howdy this theme is very interesting. Keep it going fellow !

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Is that crickets I hear?

Anonymous said...

@ radical

so it was just revealed the brazillian shooter was a devout christian. is this holy spirit action again?

Anon1 said...

anony, what Brazillian shooter are you referring to?

Radical Moderate said...

Another group of Muslims who have not read this blog, or gotten Yahya's Memo that Islam is peaceful.

"Women who do not wear headscarves are being threatened with violence and even death by Islamic extremists intent on imposing sharia law on parts of Britain, it was claimed today.

Other targets of the 'Talibanesque thugs', being investigated by police in the Tower Hamlets area of London, include homosexuals.
Stickers have been plastered on public walls stating: 'Gay free zone. Verily Allah is severe in punishment'.

It is believed Muslim extremists are behind a spate of attacks being investigated by police, according to the Sunday Times.

An Asian woman who works in a pharmacy in east London was told to dress more modestly and wear a veil or the shop would be boycotted.

When she went to the media to talk about the abuse she suffered, a man later entered the pharmacy and told her: 'If you keep doing these things, we are going to kill you'.

The 31-year-old, who is not a practising Muslim, said she has since been told to take holiday by the pharmacy owners and now fears she may lose her job.

She said: 'Why should I wear a hijab (headscarf) or burqa? I haven't done anything wrong.'"


Read more:

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya

You are fired, I mean really another case of Muslims not getting your memo that Islam is peacefull, and that Muslims are the brothers of Jesus Christ.

Your asleep at the switch man.

"Deadly riots erupted across Nigeria's north on Monday as results from presidential elections showed incumbent Goodluck Jonathan had won the contest that reflected deep regional tensions."...

"Churches were also burnt and a prison was raided, with a number of inmates escaping, residents said. Mobs roamed in a number of states, armed with sticks and burning bonfires in the streets."...

Another isolated Case of Muslims acting Like MUSLIMS

Radical Moderate said...

Another great video by David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi

Islamophobia: Correct Persecution

Radical Moderate said...

"So when easter and lent are over, slay the Muslims where ever you find them and take them captive and besige them and prepare for them every ambush"

Radical Moderate said...

I guess Yahya and the Muslims on this blog ran out of FACTS

Radical Moderate said...

Another isolated incident of Muslims acting like Muslims.

Muslims burn homosexuals alive.
I guess these Muslims didn't get your memo either.

Allah Akbar

Anonymous said...

Hey - I am really delighted to find this. Good job!

Radical Moderate said...

Starting a Pool a dollar get's you in.

Why is Yahya Absent?

Choices are:
1.He melted and wont be back until next winter

2. He was picked up on Suspicion of terrorism.

3. He realized Islam is false and is totally disgusted with his foolishness and ashamed to ever admit he believed in such nonsense.

4. He left Islam for Christ. (Note: This is a double play. If you get this one the pot is doubled.

5. He is sick, or injured and in the hospital

6. He is dead.

7. He is taking time to actually read the bible.

Send me your email and I will direct you to the Pay pall account where you can buy into the pool.

Obviously Yahya and his family are excluded from this pool. Lets keep it fair people.

Ali said...

what an idiot moron radical is.
i can give you an article about christians doing something to muslims for every article you spam on here. most of us have school and jobs unlike you who patrols this area 24/7. if we dont respond within 5 mins as you expect its because we're BUSY.
muslims who send threats to non-practicing muslims are obviously ignoring verse 16:125. you find non-practicing muslims all over the muslim world not just in the west. its God's choice to guide whom he wants.
that anonymous who posted about that brazillian shooter was me. it was revealed in his diary he wanted christ to come to his funeral. we see once again attacks of radical evangelism.
i suggest radical you pray for the blackhawks cause they're gonna be out tomorrow. spend your time worrying about your team instead of why we're not respopnding to your desperate claims.
k?

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

anon said:

if we dont respond within 5 mins as you expect its because we're BUSY.

I say,

Again what about me?

I simply asked a for a little information that according to the OP should be easy to come by. It was what seems like weeks ago yet there has been no response.

Why is that?

peace

Anonymous said...

Fifth,

Ali has been at school and work for the past two weeks straight. He spent the only five free minutes that he had calling radical an idiot. Sorry.

Anonymous said...

It looks like Ali didn't like the seven available options and opted for an eighth one: Yahya is busy with school and work.

That is a possibility, but I don't think it is very likely. Perhaps I will come back a little later and explain why. For now I just wanted to thank you, Ali, for joining the pool and also would like to request that you encourage other Muslims to join. The busier we can keep Muslims the better and safer it will be for all of us. Just think: If you guys are online playing apologists on blogs, you can't also be busy connecting wires and lighting fuses.

Radical Moderate said...

@Ali
You said...

"that anonymous who posted about that brazillian shooter was me. it was revealed in his diary he wanted christ to come to his funeral."

Ali can you find me this verse in the New Testament? And Jesus said..."After Thou Kill Children at their school, I will come to your funeral"

I'm looking I can not find it. It must be in that Muslim original Injeel that no one has.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow and Ali and other Muslims.

Looks like another isolated case of Muslims not getting Yahya Memo that Muslims are the brothers of Christ.

"NAIROBI, Kenya, April 20 (CDN) — Two Muslim extremists in Somalia on Monday (April 18) murdered a member of a secret Christian community in Lower Shabele region as part of a campaign to rid the country of Christianity, sources said.

An area source told Compass two al Shabaab militants shot 21-year-old Hassan Adawe Adan in Shalambod town after entering his house at 7:30 p.m.

“Two al Shabaab members dragged him out of his house, and after 10 minutes they fired several shots on him,” said an area source who requested anonymity. “He then died immediately.”

The militants then shouted “Allahu Akbar [God is greater]” before fleeing, he said. "

Allah is SO VERY VERY PLEASED

Gee I wonder where Muslims could of gotten the idea that apostates should be killed.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Allah’s Messenger said, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”

Looks like it was his OWN FAMILY that turned him in and had him killed.

"One source said that a relative who belonged to al Shabaab had told Adan’s mother that he suspected her son was a Christian"

sam1528 said...

fifth monarchy man ,

You know why nobody responded? You are expected to do a bit of work. Expecting to be spoon fed is a no no.

Look into Bro Bassam Zawadi website under Quranic Variants.

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

Why do you keep on rehashing old refuted arguments? Run out of ideas?

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922? This has been pointed out by Bro Bassam Zawadi in 2008 in the answering muslims website. Nobody challenged him then.

Already refuted argument of Bukhari 6922

By the way , there are verses in the bible , OT / NT , that commands the killing of apostates. That has been followed to the letter by the church in the years past.

Oops , according to you , it wasn't like that. The angels came down and killed those apostates - yes??

From Dr. William Craig :'..The problem with Islam, then, is not that it has got the wrong moral theory; it’s that it has got the wrong God. If the Muslim thinks that our moral duties are constituted by God’s commands, then I agree with him..'

Slaughter of the Canaanites - apostasy

Him being a christian , of course he will say Islam has the wrong god - without any evidence as usual.

This begs the question - have you abandon your bible? Looks like it ..

Radical Moderate said...

Fifth Monarchy Man

"You know why nobody responded? You are expected to do a bit of work. Expecting to be spoon fed is a no no.

Look into Bro Bassam Zawadi website under Quranic Variants."

Fifth let me put that statement in my Sam1528 Taquiya Translator.

"Know body has a answer for you, we do not know, we can not explain it, read A Salfi website, who most Muslims consider to be Heretics because all though he can not explain it away he does use words to confuse himself and everyone else, and that is the best any Muslim can ever do.

Radical Moderate said...

@Sam1528

I know this is going to go way over your head but I figured I would give it the old college try.

Are you a Salafi? You now Bassam is a Salafi. You know that Bassam believes that Apostates should be killed, but only in a Muslim state under rule of Islamic law.

So the only thing that is refuted is not the killing of Apostate's it is just using "ALLAH S PUNISHMENT of Fire to do it." That is hardly a refutation on the Islamic practice of Killing apostates.

Now unless your going to say that Apostates are not to be killed under Islamic rule, you have no refutation for Muslims killing Apostates. Becuase those Muslims who are doing the killing are doing it under Islamic law. They are the government in the area's they control so they enforce the law, Which is ISLAM.

Now on to your quote of Dr Craig. I completely agree with Dr Craig, Muslims have the WRONG GOD. As is evident by the fact that 600 years after the Law was fulfilled in Christ, that after he died and was raised from the dead you Muslims think you can be instruments of Gods Judgment.

You forgot to quote this part of Dr Craig.

"Think of it! God stays His judgement of the Canaanite clans 400 years because their wickedness had not reached the point of intolerability! This is the long-suffering God we know in the Hebrew Scriptures. He even allows his own chosen people to languish in slavery for four centuries before determining that the Canaanite peoples are ripe for judgement and calling His people forth from Egypt."

How long does a apostate get to repent in Islam, I think its 3 days, not four hundread years.

You also forgot to quote this part...

" By the time of their destruction, Canaanite culture was, in fact, debauched and cruel, embracing such practices as ritual prostitution and even child sacrifice. "

So is a apostate from Islam doing the things that the Cannaites were doing over 3000 years ago?

So to wrap this up, to compare Gods Judgment being poured out after he patiently waited for 400 years, a Judgment that was limited in scope, confined to a specific time, a specific people, a specific place, to Islam's general order to Kill apostates, in any time, any place (Under Islamic Law) and on any people, is desperate.

Thanks for playing.

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

TQ. You are again resorting to less than average intellectual level of argument. We can expect that. Like I said , fundies like you are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Fifth monarchy man was requested to do a bit of homework as such information can be easily obtained online.

Your response?
(1) Takkiya translator
(2) Nobody has an answer
(3) Bro Bassam Zawadi , a salafi therefore a heretic (I nearly fell off my chair laughing at your stupidity)
(4) Use words to confuse himself and others.

I am speechless as I am laughing so hard.

Anonymous said...

Sam1528,

Craig's statement about Islam having the right moral theory wasn't about Islam having the right "morals", such as its commands to kill apostates. Craig was refering to the philosophical issue of the basis of morality, which is God Himself. So he was only saying that God is the source of morality, and Muslims are right about that, not that the Islamic god issues commands that comport with the goodness of the Biblical God.

You should familiarize yourself with the issues first. Using what you learn comes later. I hope to see you in a few years when you are done so we can talk some more.

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

Huh?? You mean you have a college education? Are you sure? Your response is of less than average intellectual level.

I am not a salafi but I agree with Bro Bassam's stand on apostasy. Do you understand the qualifiers he stated for an apostate to be executed? Your response is evidence that you did not understand what you read. We can expect that from you.

You keep on saying that muslims are killing apostates based on Islamic Law. Ok then , which country in this world is a caliphate which the governance is based on Islamic Law? Looks like you are again arguing from fantasy.

Government in that area? Which country in this world has a different area government than the one governing the country? You can't stop lying , can you?

Ha ha , if christ was raised from the dead , you are better off worshiping the one who raised him from the dead. Logic , isn't it. Oops , fundies like you don't employ logic.

You are again missing the crux of Dr. Craig's argument which is '..So the problem isn’t that God ended the Canaanites’ lives. The problem is that He commanded the Israeli soldiers to end them..'. Therefore its divine decree (based on the bible)to kill apostates as admitted by Dr. Craig.

Equivocation from you again. Did the israeli soldiers gave the canaanites 3 days to repent? Nope , they came , they saw , they slaughtered. At the very least , an apostate from Islam is given 3 days to ponder. No such thing in christianity

Lets compare equivalent issues. How many apostates were killed during the caliphate rule in comparison to when the church was the government?

Ali said...

radical can you give the same to us?
looky here another isolated incident:

christians destroy piss christ art-http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/04/piss-christ-art-work-destroyed-by-protesting-christians-what-if-they-were-muslim/

sam1528 said...

anonymous ,

What philosophical issue are you blabbering about?

There are numerous verses in the bible that commands the killing of apostates. However there is none in the Quran. Even in the hadith there are qualifiers that come along with such command.

Dr. Craig point is simple , its was / is a divine decree to kill apostates. The instrument that the biblical god used in this case was the israelite soldiers slaughtering the canaanites. Straight forward and simple.

The problem with christians with the like of you is that you have wrongly accuse muslims of killing apostates without looking into the context of the hadiths in question. Now you are embarrassed with your bible that have such command. Too bad for you.

Anonymous said...

Dummy, the Canaanites weren't apostates and they had forty years to repent. Get a clue.

sam1528 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sam1528 said...

anonymous ,

From you : '..Dummy, the Canaanites weren't apostates and they had forty years to repent. Get a clue..'

Did I say the canaanites were apostates?

My previous post '..Dr. Craig point is simple , its was / is a divine decree to kill apostates. The instrument that the biblical god used in this case was the israelite soldiers slaughtering the canaanites. Straight forward and simple...'

I did not state that the canaanites were apostates. In context , I stated that its 'divine decree' of the biblical god for apostates to be executed and the biblical god uses humans to carry out its judgement / decree.

Fair enough , the articulation can be better.

I don't need to point out that there are verses in the bible that outlines the punishment for apostasy - death.

How many days or weeks or months or years did the israel soldiers gave the canaanites to repent before slaughtering them?

Radical Moderate said...

@Anon

Sam1528 said...
"What philosophical issue are you blabbering about?"

LOL oh this is priceless, Dr Craig's article went completely over his head.

It's not his fault, he get's confused easily after all he is a Muslim.

Radical Moderate said...

@Sam1528

Either you don't know that Bassam is a Salafi, or you do not know that Salafi's are considered Heretics or both?

Like Anon said go and do some studying and then get back to us.

Radical Moderate said...

Ali said...

"radical can you give the same to us?"

Hmm lets see I already gave the hadeeth were it says to kill apostates. The only objections to that, is not to burn them with "Allahs Punishment" and that it must be done under government authority.

Lets go to the quran

"But when the sacred months have past, slay them where ever you find them"

"The punishment for those that make misshief in the land is death...crucifiction...or severing the limbs at opposite ends"

"my followers slay and are slain"

I think thats enough for now. Sorry if I didnt get the quotes exactly right, but it is to early to go delving into the insanity of the Quran. Besides I just ate breakfast.

Now on to your post. First I am surprised that piece of "art" is still around. Obviously I am against destroying anything and those that did that should be brought to criminal justice. However the very article you posted asks not only in the article but also in the URL it self "What if they were Muslism"

Yes what if they were Muslims?

Let's see Danish cartoonists publish pictures of your God, and 100's die around the world at Muslim hands. A pastor burns a Quran and Muslims riot and Kill UN workers even beheading a few of them.

Yeah Islam is peaceful alright.

Radical Moderate said...

Sam1528 said...

"Ha ha , if christ was raised from the dead , you are better off worshiping the one who raised him from the dead. Logic , isn't it. Oops , fundies like you don't employ logic."

We Christians do worship GOD, the one who raised him.

"No one takes my life from me, It is mine to lay down and MINE TO TAKE UP AGAIN"

"Destroy this temple and on the third day I will raise it up again"

Radical Moderate said...

Sam1528

Here is a question for you. I am curious on the Islamic world view on this.

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

sam

I don't understand Yahya said the Quran was actually revealed in seven modes. That means there should be at lest seven variants for each section. All the web site mentioned were a few passages.

I'm looking for a list of all the variants and why Ultman rejected them.

I also want to someone to explain to mw how the Rabbis "controlled" the text when it was in the position of competing sects and all over the known world

thanks in advance

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

Ha ha , what is so philosophical about Dr Craig'a article?

No answer from you except '..LOL oh this is priceless, Dr Craig's article went completely over his head..'

Now do you agree that fundies like you are not the sharpest? You cannot even answer a simple question.

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

From you '..Either you don't know that Bassam is a Salafi, or you do not know that Salafi's are considered Heretics or both?..'

A salafi (like Bro Bassam Zawadi) is a heretic? How - where - when? Which church taught you this. The church of sam shamoun or dR white or woods or qureshi?

I just cannot stop laughing.

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

From you '..We Christians do worship GOD, the one who raised him.

"No one takes my life from me, It is mine to lay down and MINE TO TAKE UP AGAIN"

"Destroy this temple and on the third day I will raise it up again"..'

If christians worship god , the one who 'resurrected biblical jesus' then you should cease worshiping biblical jesus as there is another (ie, god) that has the godly power to resurrect biblical jesus.

Err , what happened to the trinity when biblical jesus was dead for the '3 days 3 nights'. Was it reduced to binity?? :)

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

from you '.."Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"..'

The answer is sooooo simple - What is commanded by god is morally good.

My turn ,

Taking the issue of the canaanite genocide further. -
Did the biblical god (or christian god) send a messenger to the canaanites to show them the error of their ways? If not , what is the justification of the canaanite genocide?

sam1528 said...

fifth monarchy man ,

Your questions are common questions. That is why you have been requested to review Bro Bassam Zawadi website 'call to monotheism' under the classification of 'Quranic Variants'.

Your questions :
(1) Understanding of ahruf
(2) List of 'variants'
(3) rabbis control texts

The answers are there. Its not fair for us muslims to spoon feed you as this issue has been explained and is available online.

For (3) you need to ask the jewish rabbis not us muslims.

Anonymous said...

Ya I never got that. If there were 7 "multiple readings", then that means there should be 7 variants, or "multiple readings" for each single verse in the Qur'an. Do Muslims know the seven readings for each single verse in the Qur'an? Aren’t these variants supposed to affect the readings, and ultimately the understanding of the Qur'an? Bassam Zawadi's page sure did not help.

Anonymous said...

LOL I would be soooo happy if God saved Yahya. Praise God!

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

sam

For (3) you need to ask the jewish rabbis not us muslims.

But the Jews don't claim that the rabbis “controlled the text” like Ultman that is a Muslim thing.

Asking the Jews how the rabbis "controled the text" would be like asking you how Muhammad managed to peddle false revelations as the word of God.

peace

The question would not make sense

peace

sam1528 said...

fifth monarchy man ,

Your previous post : '..I also want to someone to explain to mw how the Rabbis "controlled" the text when it was in the position of competing sects and all over the known world..'

We don't have rabbis controlling the Quran.

Now you are claiming that Caliph Uthman(ra) controlled the Quran. Can you provide such evidence?

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

sam said,

We don't have rabbis controlling the Quran.

I say

not the quran the OT

sam said:

Now you are claiming that Caliph Uthman(ra) controlled the Quran. Can you provide such evidence?

I say,

That is what Yahya said in the OP

quote:

The Quran was strictly controlled by authorities, like the Old Testament.

End quote:

Are you saying that Yahya is not telling the truth?

peace

Ali said...

wow radical you really have no comprehension skills.
Firstly you gave a hadith that has no reliability to it (like someone's religious scriptures).
next you posted a verse out of context to make yourself look good.
because we're all tired of your philippians 1:18, here's a link that'll answer all your questions about life: http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=414&section=wel_islam&subsection=Misconceptions

Radical Moderate said...

@Ali

Ali Question for you. Is the punishment for Apostasy in Islam Death under Islamic Law?

Lets see if your "CONDEMNATION IS JUSTLY DESERVED".

You said...

"Firstly you gave a hadith that has no reliability to it (like someone's religious scriptures).

Oh no, not another SAHI HADEETH FROM Bukarai that is not reliable. Seems to be alot of those Hadeeths going around.

Its amazing that so much of Islamic source's are deemed un reliable by so many Muslims.

The Salif's believe that all the hadeeth of SAHI BUKARI are 100 percent authentic and reliable. Other Muslims say there not, they pick and choose what Hadeeth they will use.

I have personally have heard a Muslim use a hadeeth to promote his view, to other Muslims, and then denounce that hadeeth as authentic or un reliable when addressing non Muslims.

Radical Moderate said...

@Fifth Monarchy Man

Wow you discovered that reading comprehension problem of Sam as well. LOL,

He really doesn't read well does he lol.

sam1528 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sam1528 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sam1528 said...

fifth monarchy man ,

From you : '..not the quran the OT..'

Fair enough rabbis control the OT. Back to my initial point. Why should we muslims explain how rabbis control their texts? The article makes the reference as follows '..Unity, produced by Jewish religious authority, was usually sought in times of crisis, and was achieved by the selection of one of the existing text forms and the simultaneous rejection of all other competing versions. Such a deliberate unification is assumed to have been part of the general restructuring of Judaism by the rabbis during the years following the catastrophe of 70 CE, which entailed the loss of the temple and the supreme council of the Sanhedrin as well as the replacement of the aristocratic high priestly leadership of Jewry by rabbis largely of plebeian origin. [2]..'

Isn't that a form of control??

From you : '..sam said:

Now you are claiming that Caliph Uthman(ra) controlled the Quran. Can you provide such evidence?

I say,

That is what Yahya said in the OP

quote:

The Quran was strictly controlled by authorities, like the Old Testament.

End quote:

Are you saying that Yahya is not telling the truth? ..'

Nowhere in the article states that Caliph Uthman(ra) controlled the text of the Quran. Copy paste of the statement again '..The Quran was strictly controlled by authorities, like the Old Testament..'. The authorities were Prophet Muhammads(saw) and the rightly guided caliphs. It was a collective effort.

An extremely careless argument from you.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

sam said,

Isn't that a form of control??

I say,

First of all this assumed process happened after the rise of Christianity so the OT was already in the possession of Christians in addition to the competing Jewish sects so it would have been impossible for Rabbis to suppress anything.

Ultman style control would be impossible So my question still stands

Secondly this is exactly the sort of thing that individual Christian communities did and still do so if that is what Yahya means by control it defeats his argument that the NT preservation was somehow different than the OT.


On the other hand Ultman was in the position to not only suppress competing versions of the Quran there is strong evidence from your own sources that he did just that.

This government “control” is a completely different process than God used to preserve his word.

Game set and match.

sam said:


The authorities were Prophet Muhammads(saw) and the rightly guided caliphs. It was a collective effort.

I say

Ultman is included in that group is he not?

It does not help your case to expand the number of censors.

It only further shows the contrast between the Quran and God’s authentic revelation.

God’s word is self authenticating he does not require help from the government.

Peace

Anonymous said...

fifth monarchy man,
the info ur asking for can be found in these sources.

The History of The Qur’ānic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments. by M. Al-Azami

An Introduction to the Sciences of the Quraan by Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi

Both can be found on Scribd.

sam1528 said...

fifth monarchy man ,

Whaat?? The OT was already in the possession of the christians (~70CE) therefore assured nothing has changed? Give yourself a bit of thought before you argue. When was the bible (OT / NT) compiled? Was it at 70CE or ~ 350 yrs after biblical jesus? Anything can happen within that time period. The rabbis could have instituted control of the text within say 10 odd years after 70CE. That is the premise of the reference in the said article.

Your question is on shaky ground. Your assumption that christian have the OT text (~70CE) is bogus as the bible was compiled ~ 300 years after that.


Game set and match? How can it be a suppression of the so called competing texts when
(1) Mushaf Uthman was an exact copy of suhuf Hafsah(ra)
(2) For every verse , it was counter checked with 2 verses from documentation and 2 from memory
(3) The completed mushaf was then proof read to the public for approval

The process was completely transparent. In comparison to the bible.

We know
(1) there were more than 4 competing gospels
(2) There was / is no evidence or attestation that the compilation was from a source that biblical jesus approved
(3) There is no proof of due dilligence done on every verse of the books of the NT
(4) The completed bible was shoved to the christians and not proof read to the public for their approval

Thus it can be seen that it was the church that practiced 'institution suppress and control'.

You have got your wires crossed.

What did they censor? Mushaf Uthman(ra) was an exact copy of suhuf Hafsah(ra). Then its a copy that has indirectly been approved by Prophet Muhammad(saw).

No matter how you twist and turn , you can't refute the facts.

TQ for your statement '..God’s word is self authenticating he does not require help from the government..'. When we compare the compilation and preservation of the Quran against the bible , we know for sure the bible is not a revelation from god as it goes against everything you claim.


***********

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

ANSWERINGMUSLIMS said...

BAGHDAD—An Iraqi police official says seven people have been wounded by a roadside bomb outside the entrance of a Baghdad church.

The official says the blast took place Sunday just yards (meters) from the Sacred Heart Church in Baghdad's Karradah neighborhood. Shrapnel from the bomb struck the outside of the building.

The officer said no parishioners were inside and services had not been held in the building.

Four policemen and three civilian bystanders were wounded.

Iraqi security forces are on high alert for any violence targeting Iraq's beleaguered Christian community this Easter. Iraqi Christians have faced a recent wave of violence, including an attack last year against a Baghdad church that killed 68 people.

The officer declined to be identified because he was not authorized to brief the media. (Source)