In the name of Allah (God),
I have decided to dedicate sincere and honest endeavour in helping to establish the Truth by helping to defend the good name of the last Prophet (pbuh) of Allah as well as refuting many other lies and misconceptions that are being disseminated by the insincere, wicked, deceptive, intellectually and morally bankrupted individuals as well as the ignorant individuals who all share a faulty characteristic; a blatant disregard for the Truth.
I ask Allah to purify my intentions and save me from doing any good action for self-aggrandizement, as all actions are judged by intentions. May Allah Love me, and bless this work. My message to any non-Muslim reading this is thus:
Please give Islam a chance, research it for yourself and allow Muslims and Muslim sources to be your primary resources you refer to when studying Islam rather than basing your views on agenda-motivated Islamophobic sources.
O Allah, You are Al-Wadud (The Loving)...please O Allah love me and bless all those Muslims and non-Muslims who read this.
Jay Smith's Pfander Centre for Apologetics is notorious for having a radicalised anti-Muslim following. It turns out one of them may have been behind a "death threat" to a Muslim apologist in Australia.
Mustafa Muhammed Sahin a pretty big development I stumbled across. Guess what, that guy who threatened to shoot you in the head appears to be the same guy who follows Jay Smith's extremist vids at Pfander Films. He was amongst those who racially abused Adnan Rashid, Pakistanis and called for booting Muslims out of Europe. See the screenshots in this link for his name. Looks like the same guy. Link here
Be safe bro. Please report him. For regulars involved at SC please be careful - this guy maybe UK based. We don't know. Please be careful. Mustafa, I can encourage you with a purported quote of Jesus in Matthew 5 which *could* be seen as a layered reference to Muslims being persecuted if one looks at esoteric meanings: 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
I hope Lizzie Schofield, Sharon Hoy, Sarah Foster, Hatun Tash and Beth Grove will reflect on why Jay Smith's Pfander Ministries and Pfander Films has accrued such caustic and extremist anti-Muslim followers over the years. I know Jay's group has been barred from speaking at certain venues and universities in the past due to being seen as Islamophobic. Would love to see some emails condemning such comments from members of Pfander. Off you go: email@example.com
My rule is: care for Christians, critique Christianity.
And as for our beliefs about Jesus respectively, Muslims do not believe Jesus ordered the killing of women and infants or allowed the severe beating of females slaves...Trinitarian Bible believing Christians do believe such about Jesus.
Judging by the way Patrick is being radicalised by hate preacher, Jay Smith (not sure if Beth Grove is involved) I think the non Christian and non Muslim may be asking Patrick to accept the Jesus of Islam...clearly your current religious affiliation has not saved you from effectively hate preaching against a minority group in Britain (oh and spare me the "we only hate preach against Islam but we love Muslims", I'm a little too smart to fall for that. When you go out constantly trying to link rape, murder and terrorism to somebody's religion then you are, yes you are, hate preaching against that group of people too and part of the propaganda that fuels thugs to attack mosques, old Muslim men and Muslim women wearing the hijab).
Hopefully Patrick Hutton can listen to the comments from Dr James White and Prof. Jonathan Brown in the video below and just allow common sense to win vs. hatred and bigotry. As a middle aged man, Patrick Hutton should be confident enough to not be swayed by peer pressure, especially so when that eddying is a vortex of bigotry and hatred. The word Muslim is being used as a racial trope/category nowadays and Muslims are now being seen as the other - the condemned other [listen to Prof. Gilroy's comments].
James White's Common Sense Acts as a Rebuke Against Islamophobia from Jay Smith, Patrick Hutton, Sarah Foster, Beth Grove and Elizabeth Schofield
Video of James White's common-sense comments effectively rebuking Jay Smith's Pfander hate preaching is also uploaded here
Oh by the way, Patrick during your de-radicalisation efforts, you may want to stop and ask yourself if Jay smith is lying about his conversion figures - does he really have all these British converts? After that you may want to look into his claims that he had 40/50 Muslims telling him they will kill him at Hyde Park if he burnt the Quran.
Truth matters more than church tradition. Truth matters more than loyalty and obedience to an evangelical "Christian" demagogue in the form of Jay Smith of Pfander Films.
PS If you've seen anti-Muslim hate comments online - please do not sit on your hands. The more we peacefully and intellectually argue against them and even highlight them with wisdom we can raise awareness of on and offline Islamophobia.
Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.
According to Steven Anderson, Jesus is backing up the commandment in Exodus 21 in Matthew 15:
For God said: 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
Pastor Steven Anderson teaches this refers to people who curse their parents (not insult or are disobedient, i.e. those children who wish their parents will die or go to hell) and those who hit their parents
I will also add Mark 7 in as it is the same as Matthew 15:
For Moses said, 'Honor your Father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
Steven Anderson, links Matthew 15:4 and Exodus 21:17 with 2 Kings 2:
23From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys
Christian missionaries like Jay Smith and Beth Grove of Pfander Ministries/Films should tell their colleagues like Lizzie Schofield and Sarah Foster the truth about POLYGAMY.
Video also uploaded here
In the eighth century Charlemagne, holding power over both church and state, in his own person practiced polygamy. St. Augustine seems to have observed in it no intrinsic immorality or sinfulness, and declared that polygamy was not a crime where it was the legal institution of a country. He wrote in The Good of Marriage (chapter 15, paragraph 17), that polygamy …was lawful among the ancient fathers……..". He declined to judge the patriarchs, but did not deduce from their practice the on going acceptability of polygamy.
During the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther said, “I confess for my part that if a man wishes to marry two or more wives, I cannot forbid him for it does not contradict the Scripture.” African churches have long recognized polygamy. Early in its history, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints practiced polygamy in the United States. Splinter groups left the Church to continue the practice after the Church banned it. Polygamy among these groups persists today in Utah, neighbouring states, and the spin-off colonies, as well as among isolated individuals with no organized church affiliation.
No church council in the earliest Christian centuries opposed polygamy. St. Augustine clearl)'[sic] declared that he did not condemn it. Luther tolerated it and approved of the bigamous status of Philip of Hesse. In 1531 the Anabaptists preached polygamy and the Mormons of today believe in it (see Abd al Ati, The Family Structure in Islam, American Trust Publications, 1977, p 114 : Until this very day, the church in some African countries conducts the marriage of men to more than one wife. In Europe, the attempt to legally enforce monogamy and outlaw polygamy took place as late as the late sixth and early seventh centuries.
Excerpted with alterations from: Is it Islam alone that allows polygamy? By May Saleh and Magdy Abd AL-SHafy. See here for the entire article:
Did the Old Testament ALLOW Polygamy? Under the Old Testament Law Polygamy was never banned. It was simply regulated
If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. [Exodus 21:10]
15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, 16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. 17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him. [Deuteronomy 21:15-17]
So this clearly shows the Old Testament did not prohibit the practice of Polygamy, it simply regulated it by giving rules of equal treatment.
Thus further showing the one-man one-woman doctrine is something new while Polygamy is certainly present in the Bible.
According to the Bible, God gave David wives
Mark Henkel says Moses had two wives., Abraham had three wives and that the twelve tribes of Israel were born of Israel's four wives.
Mark Henkel says David had numerous wives and according to the Bible, God gave David those wives and if he wanted more God would have given more:
8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. [2 Samuel 12:8]
Matthew 25, as mentioned by Mark Henker, contains a parable of a polygamous bridegroom.
Mark Henkel: Clearly the Bible never taught the anti-polygamy doctrine.
Adultery and One Flesh?
The prohibition on adultery is not given in English, it was given in Hebrew. Mark Henkel teaches the Hebrew word for 'adultery' means WOMAN who breaks wed-lock. Thus through the Hebrew we see that polygamy of a man marrying more than one wife is not adultery.
And we must also keep in mind Mark Henkel's important reminder of Christian belief, Moses is believed to have written down the Law prohibiting adultery yet he had more than one wife thus showing to Christians and Jews that polygamy of a man marrying more than one wife is NOT adultery.
As for the two will be one flesh. Mark Henkel states this does not mean you cannot be one flesh with more than one woman as Moses was.
Mark Henkel points out that the Bible also teaches one can become 'one flesh' with a prostitute. Mark Henkel contends this means that the person can be 'one flesh' with his wife and 'one flesh' with a prostitute.
16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[b] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. [1 Corinthians 6]
Mark Henkel believes the understanding of adultery and the one-flesh passage are not in contradiction with Polygamy.
Ruling for Kings in Deuteronomy 17?
The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.” 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold. [Deuteronomy 17:16-17]
Some Christians may use Deuteronomy 17:16-17 to argue against polygamy but is this an intellectually honest argument?
Firstly, the passage is speaking about kings (not everyday people) and secondly the instructions are do not take a great number of horses and many wives. Of course, a king will have more than one horse so it does not seem to be a teaching of do not take more than one. Perhaps it's a teaching of do not be extravagant and have a great number of horses and wives. So it seems like the kings can have more than one wife and more than one horse.
The Husband of One Wife and 1 Timothy
1 Timothy 3:2, 1 Timothy 3:12 and Titus 1:6 are not general prohibitions of polygamy. Mark Henkel says these are instructions only for Bishops, Elders and Deacons. Mark Henkel offers a further interpretation referring to the Greek, he believes this is a prohibition against divorce.
Something that Mark Henkel did not mention that I will touch on. 1 Timothy 4:12 is said to be teaching pastors to be an example to the believers. The anti-polygamy Christians will use this verse. However, is this really a teaching of direct imitation? If it was, then wouldn't all Christian believers have to become pastors? So to hang one's hat on this verse does not seem to be the best of logics. On top of this, the acceptance of 1 Timothy being from Paul is in question - New testament scholars dispute whether Paul wrote this. Professor Bart Ehrman believes it to be a forgery. Here's a little piece online that you may be interested in reading: 1 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE.
To my friends, students and followers in our peerless city of Manchester:
- Taxi drivers and those with cars, please get close to the police cordon near Deansgate, Cheetham Hill Rd and Bury New Rd, and the surrounding area. There are hundreds of terrified people who just need to get home, and I saw myself personally that junctions on the M60 and M61 are closed to get in to the city. If you are inside the inner ring, please go and help.
- For those with flats/rooms in the city centre, especially down Cheetham Hill Rd and even Rusholme including students with digs at the Universities, please post online with #RoomforManchester just to take in those who need shelter and help.
- Medics in the city centre, please contact your department heads asap.
- The many Muslims living around Khizra Masjid, the police cordon is near the Green Quarter and there are many confused affected people who need comfort, refreshments and support. It is just a 20 minute walk straight down, please go if you can.
- This is an essential time for us to donate blood for specific and general needs. The main donation centre is on Plymouth Grove, Manchester, M13 9LL, right opposite the MRI. It opens at 9am.
- At all times please remember the dignity of the injured and terrified, please don't post photos and videos of them online.
The people of Manchester are scared and shocked right now, but this great city will never bow to terrorism. Our job is to comfort and help. And remember not to lose heart: the perpetrators *will* pay, whether in this life or the next.
Thank you so so much to everyone who responded to our call for help last night, showing to the world that our #ManchesterStrong spirit is not just a convenient hashtag but a reality that will help everyone get through this tragedy.
The latest advice below now abrogates everything from last night so please read and share.
- A note to especially our taxi drivers of whom many will have been in the vicinity of the MEN Arena last night: if you can remember anything or recorded anything that might not have made sense to you then but could help now - as well as *anyone* else that might be seeing this unfold and the suspicious behaviour of a family member or friend in the past might be making sense now - please contact the Anti-Terror Hotline on 0800 789321 or upload any relevant footage to www.ukpoliceimageappeal.co.uk or www.ukpoliceimageappeal.com
- There is no need for blood donations at the moment, the services are being overwhelmed and only those with pre-booked appointments should attend ESPECIALLY if you have blood type O negative
- There is no need in the immediate vicinity for any help and people should remain clear of the area
- The best and most efficient way of finding about those missing and affected is by calling 0161 856 9400 and 0161 856 9900. A help centre for anyone needing assistance has also been set up outside Gate 11 of The Etihad Stadium on Ashton New Rd, Manchester.
- Please open your hearts even wider and donate to this appeal to support the families of those who were killed and injured in the attack https://mydonate.bt.com/fundraisers/muslimsformanchester - I also hope that if you are free, you will support our great city at the vigil this evening which will be held in Albert Square, in Manchester, at 6pm.
We are grieving, we are shocked, but we must remain focused and united to get through this test of our humanity. Thank you all again for your love and support!
CS Lewis saw a fully Christian society to be very socialistic! (Ironically I think the capitalist enterprises operating in modern Christian apologetics - something highly monetised - would not even be considered fully Christian in that sense).
Guess Jeremy Corbyn's view of Britain is closer to what Lewis envisioned than May's plan for Britain.
Oh and he also said the fully Christian society would always be insisting on obedience. Including obedience of wives to husbands. This is where the radical feminists go out and burn CS Lewis' books (Aslan getting barbecued by a bunch of feminists, who'd have thought it!)
Secularised Christians like those at Pfander Films (Jay Smith, Beth Grove, Lizzie Schofield, Hatun Tash and Sarah Foster) are thought to believe in the 4th century doctrine of the Trinity but seemingly teach Jesus does not use violence and force but upon closer examination of their texts and their theology it's quite obvious the secularised Christians at Pfander are not presenting views which are consistent with Trinitarian exegesis of the Bible.
Before we have a look at some texts in the New Testament let's have a look at some texts in the Old testament. Trinitarian Christians believe Jesus (as the second person of their triune Godhead doctrine) ordered the killing and destruction of whole towns if some people amongst them called to the worship of other gods:
12“When you begin living in the towns the LORD your God is giving you, you may hear 13that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. 14In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, 15you must attack that town and completely destroyb all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. 16Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. 17Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors. [Deut 13]
Trinitarians also believe Jesus ordered the killing of apostates from one's own family if they began preaching the worship of other gods:
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. [Deut 13]
Trinitarians also believe Jesus ordered women and children to be killed:
2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” [1 Samuel 15]
Jesus ordered the killing of Midianite men, women and boys through Moses according to Trinitarian thought:
7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burnedall the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.[Numbers 31]
Some Trinitarians believe the Angel of the Lord in the OldTestament is a christophany, thus they believe the angel was Jesus. Do these Trinitarians believe Jesus put to death 185,000 Assyrians?
That night the angel of the LORD went out and put to deatha hundred and eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning--there were all the dead bodies![2 Kings 19:35]
I think that's enough to demonstrate the Westernised Trinitarian really isn't preaching actual Trinitarian beliefs. But what of the New Testament, does Jesus use force according to those texts?
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepressof the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. [Revelation 19]
Trinitarian Pastor Steven Anderson explains what is meant by treading on the winepress. He goes back to chapter 14:
19So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20The grapes were trampled in the winepressoutside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 milesd long and as high as a horse’s bridle.
The pastor teaches Jesus is responsible for a judgement that brings forth a river of blood that stretches for about 200 miles and is as deep as a horse's bridle. The pastor's fellow Trinitarian in Phoenix, James White, openly admits Trinitarians believe freedom of religion will be ended when Jesus returns.
I'd be very interested in knowing if the people at the Pfander Centre for Apologetics are willing to discuss these issues and openly admit they believe Jesus uses violence according to the Trinitarian worldview. I suspect they will just remain silent on this as it affects the donations they get from other secularised Christians and I guess they feel it will impact their efforts to convert people to worship Jesus (a human being!) and believe in the Bible and the Trinity doctrine.
Look, if you're a Trinitarian please think about these points. At the end of the day it's important for you to know that Western secularism is not Christianity. Look into this, Islam and the Trinity doctrine for yourselves. Think about it. Pray about it
As for the Christians at Pfander Centre for Apologetics I'd really ask you to do the same. I'd especially ask Lizzie Schofield, Sarah Foster and Hatun Tash (the ones who may not have financial ties to that evangelical organisation) to just look around. You're all living in Britain, how many Christians do you really see around you. Be honest with yourselves. I'm hard pushed to find a Bible-believing Christian. Christianity is declining here and it's giving way to secularism (the Nones, those affiliated to no religion). Not to Islam. So this isn't an Islam vs Christianity thing. I've already written about how Jay Smith and other Christian polemicists against Islam are contributing to the apostasy of Christians. They are setting them up to stumble out of the Abrahamic tradition via the secular premises they build their arguments on. Please do read it and just ask yourself if you're contributing to this too. Don't you not think you will be responsible before God if you lead somebody to stumble into Atheism?
For any serious-minded Christians who have felt this post to be somewhat eye-opening please don't hesitate to contact me via email. Thanks.
Bible believing Trinitarians believe Jesus ordered the killing of women and infants in 1 Samuel 15:3 yet for some reason Trinitarian Islamophobes likes Beth Grove and Jay Smith use a forged narration claiming the Prophet had a woman killed for insulting him as an argument against Islam!
The Killing of Asma': True Story or Forgery?
Basically the charge is that the Prophet(P) had ordered the killing of Asma' when she insulted him with her poetry. As it is usually the case where the history of Islam and the character of the Prophet(P) is concerned, it is left to the Muslims to throw some light on authenticity of the story in which this incident is reported by the sources and educate the missionaries in matters which they have no clue about.
The story of the killing of Asma' bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa'd in Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir and by the author of Kinz-ul-'Ummal under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adiyy and Ibn 'Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn 'Adiyy mentions it in his book Al-Kamel on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas, and added that
...this isnâd (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.
It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in Al-'Ilal and is listed among other flawed reports.
So according to its isnâd, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is notorious for fabricating hadîth. Hence, such a story is rejected and is better off being put into the trash can.
(Taken from: http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_killing.htm)
And we see in genuine reports, Prophet Muhammad forbade the killing of women:
Book 019, Hadith Number 4319.
Chapter : Prohibition of killing women and children in war.
It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He disapproved of the killing of women and children.
Book 021, Hadith Number 008.
Section : Prohibition against Killing Women and Children in Military Expeditions.
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that a son of Kab ibn Malik (Malik believed that ibn Shihab said it was Abd ar-Rahman ibn Kab) said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, forbade those who fought ibn Abi Huqayq (a treacherous jew from Madina) to kill women and children. He said that one of the men fighting had said, 'The wife of ibn Abi Huqayq began screaming and I repeatedly raised my sword against her. Then I would remember the prohibition of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, so I would stop. Had it not been for that, we would have been rid of her.'" Taken from here
More information of the false story of the killing of the poetess Asma Bint Marwan see:
Folks, I know we Muslims are just sick of weird “conversion” stories being peddled by Christian missionary organisations of Muslims becoming Christians.
Embarrassing to serious-minded Christians
They are full of dramatics or some dream story or just really clichéd – almost like they are manufactured/moulded stories from a certain perspective.
A lady, Lizzie Schofield, who works for/with a Christian missionary organisation which is known for disregarding accuracy and intellectual honesty, Pfander Ministries, writes:
I was at an evangelism conference when I found myself sitting next to a very friendly Iranian man, arms covered in ‘John 3:16’ bracelets.[I think she means wrist bands]. I asked what brought him to London? He told me his extraordinary testimony of coming out of Islam to faith in Christ, and that I was free to publicise it to the whole world.
The story of this Iranian (asylum seeker?) convert to Christianity called Sadegh appeared to be shaped for an evangelical audience. Perhaps to make Christians feel a sense of accomplishment and confirmation bias or just to encourage donations into Christian evangelicalism so folks like him can earn a living.
Who knows, but this guy, Sadegh, was either really ignorant or was shaping his narrative for his Christian audience as he proclaimed he was taught to worship Prophet Muhammad:
Also, I was only ever told good things about Muhammad, and that we were to worship and pray to him. I thought why should I? He’s dead!
No Muslims worship Prophet Muhammad. Shame on Christian missionary organisations which promote Sadegh. Muslims worship the God of Jesus, Muhammad and Moses. The only Being worthy of worship: Allah.
Here is a podcast where Muslims discuss Sadegh’s “extraordinary testimony” - Christians are out of touch if they think Muslims will take Sadegh's story seriously. How does a Christian evangelist expect to be taken seriously in the eyes of a Muslim while propagating such a story?
Dr Ben, Marcus Garvey and Carter G. Woodson would not be impressed by your actions. I am referring to your immature mockery and deliberate targeting of a man who has never wronged or hurt you. Your video mocking Mr Paul Williams (video entitled “The Real Gay Housewives of Speakers Corner”) simply because he happened to be the same religion of somebody who you believe made an equally immature video mocking you for playing the role of a homosexual character on screen many years ago.
For you to target Mr Williams in retaliation is simply shameless abuse of an innocent man and a dishonouring of Marcus Garvey's name which you use as your handle.
The fact remains, this gentleman believes something is a sin and he chooses to exercise the restraint of abstinence and live a life which he believes pleases God. In Islam, it is the act and not the Same Sex Attraction which is the sin. Surely, such devotion and sacrifice to God is to admired, commended and respected?
Your attack on this gentleman, who has not provoked you in the slightest, puts you in a bad light but it is clear this gentleman operates with more dignity than you in the face of online provocation too. Here is his dignified response to your immature comments:
I decided to be open about my same sex-attraction for two reasons, 1) so that non-Muslims can hear from a Muslim who is struggling with these issues and offering a counter-narrative to society’s pro-gay propaganda, 2) to explain to Muslims and non-Muslims what Islam actually teaches about homosexuality from someone who is personally effected by it. It leaves me open to ridicule – a price I am willing to pay. So far (perhaps surprisingly) nearly all the bigotry I have been subjected to comes from Christians. The guy narrating this video has clearly been stung by taunts from some Muslims about a gay character he once played in his acting work. His attack on me is his revenge.
I would put it to you, that Marcus Garvey and Carter Woodson would have had more admiration for Mr Williams than for your immature harassment of Mr Williams - the comment section of your immature video is packed with immature abuse towards Mr Williams as well which you have to take responsibility for. The irony is, this all started because somebody (or some people) hurt your feelings via online harassment. You chose to respond by harassing and hurting somebody else.
If you haven't confidence in self, you are twice defeated in the race of life. [Marcus Garvey].
The fact remains, if you had confidence in yourself and weren't concerned about responding in a macho manner for other people (those online and those in your peer group) you would have been able to ride a bit of online YouTube trolling.
Yet, from what I can see, you've possibly broken the law of the land in your abuse of a gay Muslim and your threatening comments towards a Muslim in a park whom you targeted in a show of intimidation (saying to him if you saw him on the streets "I would snatch his f***** heart out of your chest") .
You may want to read Carter G. Woodson's book for this piece of advice which you clearly have not taken on board:
Negroes* must become like English gentlemen who study the law of the land, not because they intend to practice the profession, but because every gentleman should know the law.
Sir, you are dishonouring the Conscious community.
Note, I refuse to share the videos any of the videos, the ones featuring SaRa "Garvey"'s threats and intimidating behaviour, his immature mocking of Mr Williams or those immature videos featuring his past acting scenes.
*The word Negro was not used as a pejorative, the author was pro-black
This type of dishonest video making by a Nigerian Christian Korede of Love a Muslim Ministry is shameless. Folks, you do not honour Christianity with lies. You do not honour Paul of Tarsus with lies. You do not honour your church with lies. Folks, do not use lies to try and make yourselves popular.
I hope the Christians at Love a Muslim Ministry will try harder to value honesty more in the future.
Misleading Nigerian Christian: Korede Olawoyin Attacks Paul Williams
Korede Olawoyin is a Deceitful Man Making Deceptive Videos - Lucas Samson
Yahya Snow: What I've noticed even on the Alpha course is that Christians are more willing to go into the smells and bells approach rather than intellectual dialogue about their faith because a proper critique of ideas such as Biblical inerrancy, Trinity and the blood atonement leads them to doubts or even complete rejection.
I recall being on an Alpha and I had, after planting a few seeds, folks reject the idea of Jesus being God and reject the Trinity in the space of an hour.
The intellectual apathy exists on the part of some to allow them to hold on to beliefs they want to hold on to. For instance a church going lady asked me if I thought Jesus was a good person. I gave her an answer she had never heard before. I said the Trinitarian version of Jesus would not be considered a good person in today's Western liberal society as he ordered the killing of mothers and babies as well as allowed the severe beating of females
She was taken aback. She did suggest the story of John 7:53-8:11 to promote the idea he was good. She was almost in tears when I told her that story is a later addition advising her to go home and check the footnotes.
The first time she has ever heard of this. She wasn't a little old lady either. She was in her 20s.
Intellectual apathy is helping Christians remain believing stuff they want to - not truth.
This approach of talking about the "Gospel" will just ultimately fizz into an emotional bout of preaching (smells and bells Christianity), the already convinced or overly emotional types will listen, but once the apologetics spiel is kicked off these folks will close their ears.
Folks like me (the majority) will be yawning and checking our messages during the smells and bells spiel and we may not even hang around till the apologetics stuff. If we do we will be frustrated at having to listen to 30 mins of appealing to emotions thus the Christian apologist may find some folks are really eager to knock the arguments for this worldview down.
I don't think Dr Bannister's approach is going to be pulling up any trees anytime soon.
But Dr Bannister seems like one of the nicer evangelicals (not so difficult given some of the evangelists out there) so maybe he can pull it off more than most. Would be interested in hearing Dr Bannister give us feedback on how effective this new method was in a year's time
Andy Bannister: Thanks, Yahya. It's actually the method that goes right back to the early church --- unless somebody realises they are a sinner and *needs* Christ, why would the cosmological argument interest them? I have seen hundreds of people come to faith in Christ this way (24 at at an event in Canada ten days ago, to give one recent example). Or you could take a look at Keller, whose church in Manhattan has grown from 90 to north of 5,000 largely using this approach. It has nothing to do with appealing to emotions, but to do with helping somebody understand what stands or falls on the gospel. It's the way the gospel has most commonly been presented :-)
Yahya Snow: Appreciated Dr Bannister. I want to look into Tim Keller's ministry more (as a critic) but I don't think I will have time as I plan to do some work on Nicky Gumbel's ministry. I know from stats in Britain that most converts to each church come from different denominations. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case for your peeps and Keller's church. The cosmological argument would be listened to by any truth seeker. The you're a sinner stuff gets folks' emotional juices running especially if this is one of the first things being driven at.
And the earlier Pauline church was about performing miracles and healings to get ppl to convert. :) Yet to see any preacher perform a miracle although the Christian faith healers are out there like Reinhard Bonnke who claims to have has millions of converts in Africa whilst he and his protege Daniel Kollenda are giving sketchy accounts of miracles they are performing over there. interesting considering the church in Germany is dying and Bonnke is out in Africa performing "miracles" - wonder why he doesnt pitch up in a Berlin hospital to heal ppl so he can convert onlookers as in the stories in Acts.
Will try to keep an eye out for this new or not-so new approach.
May as well dump this here seen as there are interpretations from the Gospel teaching Christians can do miracles
Andy Bannister: I think any test for truth requires philosophical coherence + existential livability. For example, I'm currently counselling a Muslim academic in a country I won't mention for the sake of his security. It was an emotional response (ISIS) that led him to intellectual questions (especially concerning the Sira and the Qur'an) and has now led him to consider Christianity.
I think you can't have the one without the other — our emotions and our reason need to fit together; we're wholistic beings, neither brains in a jar, or a floating set of emoticons :-)
BTW I agree with you that Alpha needs more apologetics. That's getting added in at last, especially in some of the newer digital resources they've pioneered in places like Canada
Yahya Snow: Dr Bannister, sure there are ignorant Muslims out there.
But let's not play a game of equivocation here and cloud people's minds.
The NT is a theoretical reconstruction based on the NT manuscript tradition (the NT manuscripts we have found thus far).
The Dr Bannister of the 1800s or any Bible believing Christian of that time would have had complete confidence in the last few verses of Mark's Gospel and the PA (John 7:53-8:11) but bish-bash-boom Von Tischendorf discovered Codex Sinaiticus (or perhaps even stole it?! :)) which now means we know those two chunks of text are not part of the original text yet we had generations, nations and a planet full of Christians believing those texts were inspired and part of the Scripture prior to that discover about 200 yrs ago (not long in the grand scheme of things)
This disproves the idea the Holy Spirit guides Christians in scripture and it also effectively sets the precedent. ANY verse or chunk of text in the NT is open to a new find (manuscript discovery) which either leads it to being altered or discarded as an authorised addition (let me be crude and call it a forgery) in the future. Bye bye to a Christian's confidence in their favourite NT verse including John 3:16. Mine is Mark 3:35 ( refutes the Trinity idea and promotes an Islamic view of God and Jesus)
Think about that, ANY NT verse could be discarded as a possible forgery upon a new find!!! And what if we do not make any new finds, we still cannot be confident ANY verse in the NT is part of the original NT as those manuscripts militating against the said verse may have been lost to humanity.
As for Uthman burning manuscripts. It's old hat. ALL the companions agreed with Uthman's principle (inc Ibn Masud). So what do we have, we have all the companions agreeing on what the Quran is and this was passed on orally through Muslim generations including all the different Qiraats. Muslims aren't relying on archaeologists to reconstruct the Quran. We know what the contents of the Quran are. The community of Muslims throughout the history of Islam have known this and do to this day. The benefit of having a collective oral tradition.
Christians don't have an oral tradition and this is why they are reliant on non Christians to help find manuscripts for them and help them with deciding what should be in their NT. Effectively Christians are groping around in Egypt looking for new manuscripts. What version of NA are we on now? 28, 29? 30?
When you don't have an oral tradition you as a community do not know what should and shouldn't be in the text - this is proven by the way Christians are looking at the NT. No certainty. No confidence. Continually in flux with every new Manuscript find with viable differing readings.
Further problems arise when we look at how Christians decided on what to include in their NT canon. Again nobody with any authority, no disciple, ever decided the NT canon. FF Bruce thinks even at the time of Sinaiticus the NT canon was not decided upon! Again, militating against the belief that the Spirit guides Christians in scripture. Revelation (the book of) was hotly debated by the church.
And the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) has problems too. Big problems.
So not only do we have Christians uncertain on their doctrines, Gregory of Nazianzus tells us in the late 4th century that Christians didn't know for sure what to believe about the Holy Spirit as a community (a poke in the eye for the Trinity doctrine) they were also uncertain on their texts centuries after Jesus.
The same applies today. Following conjecture. Sure the conjecture is from some Christians with brilliant minds (and some not so brilliant) but it is still conjecture. Would God want us to follow conjecture about Him or would He want us to have certainty about Him?
Historical Jesus scholars openly declare Jesus was not a Trinitarian.
Folks, is church tradition more valuable than truth?