Tuesday, 23 March 2010

Did Prophet Muhammed Hit or Strike His Wife, Aisha?

Prophet Muhammad certainly did NOT beat his wives.

Some unscholarly and unsavoury individuals are trying to convince us that the Prophet Muhammad hit his wife Aisha (Aysha).

This is a bizarre claim indeed, especially considering that all the evidence (ie hadith literature) and Islamic scholars show that Muhammad never hit his wives.
Indeed Muhammad taught that the best of you are those who do not hit their wives and Muhammad was the best of them, thus we realise Muhammad indirectly told us he never hit his wives. However it is wise and thorough to analyze the critic's claim further (this is done by my colleague, Gabriel Keresztes AKA Jibreelk):

Did prophet Muhammad ever hit Aisha?

People have been trying to cast shadows of doubt on the character of prophet Muhammad pbuh since the beginning of his prophetic career and they are certainly making their marks today.

Such an incident is when Aisha followed prophet Muhammad one night after being with him, while he did not want to awake her after being instructed by angel Gabriel to go to the grave yard and pray for his companions. What an innocent and pure event, what an amazing characteristic of our beloved prophet, at a time when most of us are in dream land, prayer being the last thing in our dreams, the prophet used to pray. The prophet used to leave his warm bed and go out in the cold or stay for long periods of times (1000 some years before central heating) and pray.

Any way the allegation of the crtics is that prophet Muhammad hit Aysha. We will analyze the allegation (God Willing). Firstly, let us mention it was reported that the prophet never hit any woman or slave, he only hit the enemies of Allah in fights. He never hit a child, he never back bit, he never spoke ill.
The hadith in question goes as such :

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 2127:

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ''A''isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah''s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi''. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ''A''isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi'' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

The explanation (by Salman on Sunni forums)
Salamu Alaikum

"Struck" is a bad translation here. The word used is 'lahaza' , which could be translated as "Push" and at most "slap with an open palm" but not a hard, violent slap (and note translating it as "slap" is weaker and less probable). A correct translation would be:

- He pushed me (lahadani) in the chest (fi sadri) with a push (lahdatan)which made me sore (awja'atni).

It is very interesting to note that "pushing" of the Prophet does indeed convey meaning - usually to drive away evil influence and thought.

- Amir ibn Raba and Sahl ibn Hunayf went out to bathe. Amir took off his woolen robe. He [Sahl] narrates: "I looked at him and I cast the evil eye on him. He went down into the water then I heard a noise coming from him. I called out to him three times but there was no answer. I went to call the Messenger of Allah who came on foot and waded his way in the water. Then he slapped/pushed his chest with his hand, saying: "O Allah! drive away from him its heat and its coolness and its harm." Then he rose up and said: "If one of you sees something that pleases him in his brother - whether in his person or property - let him invoke blessing for him, for the evil eye is a reality."

(Tafsir ibn Kathir)

Similarly, in a narration it states:

- Ubbay said: There occurred in my mind a sort of denial which did not occur even during the Days of Ignorance. When the Messenger of Allah saw how I was affected, he slapped/pushed me on the chest. I broke into a sweat and felt as if I were looking at Allah in fear.

(Sahih Muslim)

Wallahu A'lam

JibreelK comments:

There is another incident when a man of Quraish was trying to kill the prophet while he was making tawaf around the kaba. He kept getting closer and closer to him, and the prophet was receiving revelation of his intentions. The prophet kept asking him about his intention while this person was denying it but persisted in his goal and would try again. When he got really close to him, the prophet hit him on his chest and all the doubts and disbelief left his heart and he became a believer.

The above examples and poofs go to show that the prophet did not hit Aysha as abuse or as wife beating as the Orientalists claim, he pushed her as to remove any ill doubts or suspicion out of her heart of HIM NOT BEING FAIR TO HER (which is proven by the question he asks her in the hadith). He did the same to some companions and to many others he would put his hand on their heart, and pray for them, push their chest, and other proximity methods in order to remove the doubts or ill thoughts from their heart.

Only ill minded people and people who go to distort the image of our prophets character can see that as abuse, while they themselves are the worst of abusers, seeking to find any kind of ambiguity in Islam so they can attack it and never ever to withdraw their claims even when proven wrong such as now. Instead of admitting that they were wrong, they move on to someone else who they can confuse with the same shady argument.

But Allah is aware of all that they do

Note: Some slight modifications were made to JibreelK's article. His article in its unadulterated form is here:
http://jibreelk.blogspot.com/2008/10/did-prophet-muhammad-ever-hit-aisha.html

Video presentation on this subject by Yahya Snow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuIXyT7p8C0

37 comments:

Negeen said...

Yayha,
With respect, I just do not believe you're being intellectually honest with yourself. If Muhammad struck Aisha (or gently pushed down on her chest), it still caused her pain (or caused her to be sore) If you do not want to use the word "hit" because you believe your holy prophet would lose moral face then fine. We could use plenty of other words such as strike, swat, smack, buffet etc... At the end of the day you can't erase Aisha's own words no matter how many times Muslims try and get around them. I invite you to begin being intellectually honest with yourself and the people who read your blog yayha.

Yahya Snow said...

Dear Negeen...

It is wondeful to note you are well. I seriously mean that. Thanks for dropping by. You are more than welcome on my YouTube page too.

As for intellectual honesty, the other sources point to the fact that he did not hit his wives...thus it is consistent with scholarly authority.

Moreover, the Arabic points to the word "press", "push" with the intent to ward off evil. Therefore it would be intellectually dishonest (as well as unjust) to represent this situation as wife-beating.

I wouldnot take up a cause if it was not intellectually sound.

PS...In the UK, I spent time in the North of England and there was a strong Afghan community there who were extremely welcoming...thus I have a soft spot for all Afghans.

May God bless you

Peace and Love

Peace and LOVE.

Negeen said...

Okay, lets say there are other sources that support the claim that Muhammad never hit his wives. Then wouldn't anyone who reads all the sources about this topic conclude that these texts are inconsistent with each other? There are texts that suggest Muhammad condoned other people using force against their wives, as well as him doing it himself in the reference you sited in this blog post. One can only gather all the information and conclude that they are inconsistent with each other on what Muhammad did and did not do, what he did condoned and did not condone etc... Furthermore, if my future husband ever pressed and pushed me to ward off evil inside of me which caused me physical discomfort (As Aisha says) I would not respond very favorably. Nor would I think that a husband who trusts me, and loves me, and is confident of my judgment would ever react the way Muhammad reacts.
Thank you for the kind words. I did watch your response to my testimony by the way. I'm glad you got to spend some time with Afghani's we're a pretty impressionable people :)

Yahya Snow said...

Hi Negeen

I'm glad you found my response, it was difficult to get it to you as objects were put in the way of my response. So eventually I just gave up and asked God to allow you to view it one day. (I hope you also viewed the links furnished with the response)

As for the Hadith cited, it clearly does not mean "hit" due to the Arabic word used.Thus it would be intellectually dishonest of anybody to present it so.

And in Islam we believe actions are judged by intentions...thus Muhammed's intention was of a curative nature rather than a malicious nature.

It is similar to what we are taught to do when it comes to people who are choking...we have to slap them on the back...these are forceful slaps. Surely...it causes discomfort but it is the intent which matters.

Also,there is a similar example with the Prophet Jesus...he put mud in a man's eyes in order to heal his blindness...the intent wasn't to humiliate of distress the man but to cure. (Or refer to the example of church leaders performingthe same press/push that Muhammed performed on their congregation...see the audio/video presentation)

The same with Muhammed, he was not looking to harm...but to cure...similar to the back slaps example I gave earlier or the example of the church leaders

Yes, the Afghans are a fine group of people.

May God bless them further
Thanks

Peace and love

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

So, instead of "beating" a wife a man is to passive/aggressively "shove" her to apply his pain - sorry, I mean "soreness"- causing physical "corrections; not liking to be seen as a whimpy bully he can also adopt the arrogance of an "exorcist/holy judge" and slap, shove and push her until she sees Allah and the "right" way again?
Please forgive me if I decline to accept your rather intersting (in a Chinese Curse sense) view of women, words, "god" and reality.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Good AfterEveMorNooning to you.
I do believe you are completely missing the point in Western eyes. It is indeed the intent that condemns, buy not merely the intent to hit/hurt; this INCLUDES the intent to "correct" the ADULT wife. Physical corrections are only acceptable, when they are at all, when applied to a child or PET! It is totally unacceptable to the modern mind for a man to assume physically positive controls on any adult of sound mind.
The exorcism rational is even worse since the only occurrences the public encounter are those where a fanatical nutcase has beaten some poor soul to death.
Can you spin it positive to neutral with that in mind?

Hijabi Waitress said...

@ Guy The way I'm reading this is that Muhammad (pbuh) had the power to take evil or doubt or other negative feelings out of someone, which was administered as a shove in several cases, like a laying on of hands.

So in one severe case did Muhammad (pbuh) lay his hand on a woman. Jesus (pbuh) was a divnely peaceful man, yet he, too, got angry and violent and flipped tables over. Does that automatically make him a violent man? No, it means that ONE SITUATION called for such an action.

Shots when you're sick hurt, but they're still good for you. You know?

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Hijabi Waitress says:
"Muhammad (pbuh) had the power to take evil or doubt or other negative feelings out of someone, which was administered as a shove in several cases, like a laying on of hands."

(Guy) Riiiiight. I do not mean to be offensive but religious doctrine stemming from the special powers of a semi-historical religious figure is not a basis for Western Law.
You need to justify it in terms a kafir can accept for your explaination to be valid in the West.

Hijabi Waitress says:
"So in one severe case did Muhammad (pbuh) lay his hand on a woman. Jesus (pbuh) was a divnely peaceful man, yet he, too, got angry and violent and flipped tables over. Does that automatically make him a violent man? No, it means that ONE SITUATION called for such an action."

(Guy) Again, we seem to have a problem with translation of attitudes; the Western mindset cannot equate the actions of a semi-mythical religious figure in response to an ongoing desecration of an undisputedly holy santuary with an individual man's right to express the same kind of physical outrage upon his women and children should they become "polluted", in HIS mind!

Hijabi Waitress says:
"Shots when you're sick hurt, but they're still good for you. You know?"

(Guy) That depends on whether the doctor knows what he is doing!
You are giving a blanket priviledge of "doctorhood" to EVERY man who has a female under his care to decide for himself if she is, or MIGHT in the future, straying and to "correct" her in the appropriate fashion... according to HIM.

Hijabi Waitress said...

Guy said, "That depends on whether the doctor knows what he is doing!
You are giving a blanket priviledge of "doctorhood" to EVERY man who has a female under his care to decide for himself if she is, or MIGHT in the future, straying and to "correct" her in the appropriate fashion... according to HIM."

No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it.

Look, I've been minding my own business at work when my manager suddenly shoved me into the soda machine. I turned around, about to start yelling at him, when I realised that another coworker was walking past with a huge tray of food, and we hadn't seen each other. Him shoving me (which hurt, mind you) was the quickest way for him to get both of us out of danger. Did I sue him for abusing me? No, because THAT ONE TIME, the painful shove was warranted.

I think you're confusing one-time permissiveness for a free-for-all.

Hijabi Waitress said...

Guy said, "Again, we seem to have a problem with translation of attitudes; the Western mindset cannot equate the actions of a semi-mythical religious figure in response to an ongoing desecration of an undisputedly holy santuary with an individual man's right to express the same kind of physical outrage upon his women and children should they become "polluted", in HIS mind!"

Dude, it is NOT ok for a man to hit a woman without justification in Islam. Look at ALL the evidence, and only a disputed MINORITY of it supports striking women. NONE of it supports striking them without just cause - like self-defense, or, in this case, a spiritual healing. A'isha also claimed that Muhammad (pbuh) NEVER hit a woman, child, slave, or man in anger, unless he was in battle - obviously, she didn't consider this ONE incident to be an unwarranted strike. Y'know what? If I'd been around with Muhammad (pbuh) and had something polluting ME, I'd have let him slap the silly out of me in order to get it out. I would NOT have let him, however, hit me for the heck of it, and I would NOT have used that as a justification for men beating their wives - Muhammad's (pbuh) opinion on THAT is well-documented. Besides, no other person alive now has the power to get rid of someone's spiritual pollution, therefore this particular point is moot.

Hijabi Waitress said...

Guy said, "Again, we seem to have a problem with translation of attitudes; the Western mindset cannot equate the actions of a semi-mythical religious figure in response to an ongoing desecration of an undisputedly holy santuary with an individual man's right to express the same kind of physical outrage upon his women and children should they become "polluted", in HIS mind!"

Dude, it is NOT ok for a man to hit a woman without justification in Islam. Look at ALL the evidence, and only a disputed MINORITY of it supports striking women. NONE of it supports striking them without just cause - like self-defense, or, in this case, a spiritual healing. A'isha also claimed that Muhammad (pbuh) NEVER hit a woman, child, slave, or man in anger, unless he was in battle - obviously, she didn't consider this ONE incident to be an unwarranted strike. Y'know what? If I'd been around with Muhammad (pbuh) and had something polluting ME, I'd have let him slap the silly out of me in order to get it out. I would NOT have let him, however, hit me for the heck of it, and I would NOT have used that as a justification for men beating their wives - Muhammad's (pbuh) opinion on THAT is well-documented. Besides, no other person alive now has the power to get rid of someone's spiritual pollution, therefore this particular point is moot.


Guy said, "That depends on whether the doctor knows what he is doing!
You are giving a blanket priviledge of "doctorhood" to EVERY man who has a female under his care to decide for himself if she is, or MIGHT in the future, straying and to "correct" her in the appropriate fashion... according to HIM."

No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it.

Look, I've been minding my own business at work when my manager suddenly shoved me into the soda machine. I turned around, about to start yelling at him, when I realised that another coworker was walking past with a huge tray of food, and we hadn't seen each other. Him shoving me (which hurt, mind you) was the quickest way for him to get both of us out of danger. Did I sue him for abusing me? No, because THAT ONE TIME, the painful shove was warranted.

I think you're confusing one-time permissiveness for a free-for-all.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Do you really think I am that ignorant?
How about a few translations of the Quran here:

Rodwell: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other...But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; ...scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them...


Dawood: "Men have authority over women... good women are the obedient... those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action...

Pickthall: "Men are in charge of women... good women are the obedient...admonish them... scourge them

Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another... admonish... eat them

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women... admonish them... beat them

Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... righteous women are devoutly obedient... on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct... (and last) beat them (lightly)... if they return to obedience, seek not against them

from a program with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on LBC TV

...while the man may use beating to discipline his wife, she sometimes uses her tears to discipline him. He gets what he wants by screaming, while she gets what she wants from him by crying... beatings should be light and not in the face... A man who is angry with his wife because she doesn't get it... If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly. He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child - slapping them right and left.

Six translations and one Saudi commentary, not one supports your version, all support teh idea that a man ANGRY with his wife has the right to beat her and humiliate her until she returns to obiedience... as long as he does not beat her as he would a CHILD by slapping them back and forth!!!
Where does your exorcism on the halfshell come in?

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Do you really think I am that ignorant?
How about a few translations of the Quran here:

Rodwell: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other...But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; ...scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them...


Dawood: "Men have authority over women... good women are the obedient... those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action...

Pickthall: "Men are in charge of women... good women are the obedient...admonish them... scourge them

Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another... admonish... eat them

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women... admonish them... beat them

Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... righteous women are devoutly obedient... on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct... (and last) beat them (lightly)... if they return to obedience, seek not against them

from a program with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on LBC TV

...while the man may use beating to discipline his wife, she sometimes uses her tears to discipline him. He gets what he wants by screaming, while she gets what she wants from him by crying... beatings should be light and not in the face... A man who is angry with his wife because she doesn't get it... If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly. He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child - slapping them right and left.

Six translations and one Saudi commentary, not one supports your version, all support teh idea that a man ANGRY with his wife has the right to beat her and humiliate her until she returns to obiedience... as long as he does not beat her as he would a CHILD by slapping them back and forth!!!
Where does your exorcism on the halfshell come in?

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Do you really think I am that ignorant?
How about a few translations of the Quran here:

Rodwell: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other...But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; ...scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them...


Dawood: "Men have authority over women... good women are the obedient... those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action...

Pickthall: "Men are in charge of women... good women are the obedient...admonish them... scourge them

Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another... admonish... eat them

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women... admonish them... beat them

Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... righteous women are devoutly obedient... on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct... (and last) beat them (lightly)... if they return to obedience, seek not against them

from a program with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on LBC TV

...while the man may use beating to discipline his wife, she sometimes uses her tears to discipline him. He gets what he wants by screaming, while she gets what she wants from him by crying... beatings should be light and not in the face... A man who is angry with his wife because she doesn't get it... If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly. He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child - slapping them right and left.

Six translations and one Saudi commentary, not one supports your version, all support teh idea that a man ANGRY with his wife has the right to beat her and humiliate her until she returns to obiedience... as long as he does not beat her as he would a CHILD by slapping them back and forth!!!
Where does your exorcism on the halfshell come in

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Do you really think I am that ignorant?
How about a few translations of the Quran here:

Rodwell: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other...But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; ...scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them...


Dawood: "Men have authority over women... good women are the obedient... those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action...

Pickthall: "Men are in charge of women... good women are the obedient...admonish them... scourge them

Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another... admonish... eat them

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women... admonish them... beat them

Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... righteous women are devoutly obedient... on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct... (and last) beat them (lightly)... if they return to obedience, seek not against them

from a program with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on LBC TV

...while the man may use beating to discipline his wife, she sometimes uses her tears to discipline him. He gets what he wants by screaming, while she gets what she wants from him by crying... beatings should be light and not in the face... A man who is angry with his wife because she doesn't get it... If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly. He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child - slapping them right and left.

Six translations and one Saudi commentary, not one supports your version, all support teh idea that a man ANGRY with his wife has the right to beat her and humiliate her until she returns to obiedience... as long as he does not beat her as he would a CHILD by slapping them back and forth!!!
Where does your exorcism on the halfshell come in

Guy DeWhitney said...

Do you really think I am that ignorant?
How about a few translations of the Quran here:

Rodwell: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other...But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; ...scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them...


Dawood: "Men have authority over women... good women are the obedient... those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action...

Pickthall: "Men are in charge of women... good women are the obedient...admonish them... scourge them

Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another... admonish... eat them

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women... admonish them... beat them

Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... righteous women are devoutly obedient... on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct... (and last) beat them (lightly)... if they return to obedience, seek not against them

from a program with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on LBC TV

...while the man may use beating to discipline his wife, she sometimes uses her tears to discipline him. He gets what he wants by screaming, while she gets what she wants from him by crying... beatings should be light and not in the face... A man who is angry with his wife because she doesn't get it... If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly. He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child - slapping them right and left.

Six translations and one Saudi commentary, not one supports your version, all support teh idea that a man ANGRY with his wife has the right to beat her and humiliate her until she returns to obiedience... as long as he does not beat her as he would a CHILD by slapping them back and forth!!!
Where does your exorcism on the halfshell come in

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Do you really think I am that ignorant?
How about a few translations of the Quran here:

Rodwell: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other...But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; ...scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them...


Dawood: "Men have authority over women... good women are the obedient... those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action...

Pickthall: "Men are in charge of women... good women are the obedient...admonish them... scourge them

Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another... admonish... eat them

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women... admonish them... beat them

Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... righteous women are devoutly obedient... on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct... (and last) beat them (lightly)... if they return to obedience, seek not against them

from a program with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on LBC TV

...while the man may use beating to discipline his wife, she sometimes uses her tears to discipline him. He gets what he wants by screaming, while she gets what she wants from him by crying... beatings should be light and not in the face... A man who is angry with his wife because she doesn't get it... If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly. He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child - slapping them right and left.

Six translations and one Saudi commentary, not one supports your version, all support teh idea that a man ANGRY with his wife has the right to beat her and humiliate her until she returns to obedience... as long as he does not beat her as he would a CHILD by slapping them back and forth!!!
Where does your exorcism on the halfshell come in

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

Do you really think I am that ignorant?
How about a few translations of the Quran here:

Rodwell: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other...But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; ...scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them...


Dawood: "Men have authority over women... good women are the obedient... those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action...

Pickthall: "Men are in charge of women... good women are the obedient...admonish them... scourge them

Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another... admonish... eat them

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women... admonish them... beat them

Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... righteous women are devoutly obedient... on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct... (and last) beat them (lightly)... if they return to obedience, seek not against them

from a program with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on LBC TV

...while the man may use beating to discipline his wife, she sometimes uses her tears to discipline him. He gets what he wants by screaming, while she gets what she wants from him by crying... beatings should be light and not in the face... A man who is angry with his wife because she doesn't get it... If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly. He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child - slapping them right and left.

Six translations and one Saudi commentary, not one supports your version, all support teh idea that a man ANGRY with his wife has the right to beat her and humiliate her until she returns to obedience... as long as he does not beat her as he would a CHILD by slapping them back and forth!!!
Where does your exorcism on the halfshell come in

Guy DeWhitney said...

"I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some texts to support this rather novel new approach?
I have some real quotes:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman...

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: Of course... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her.


"Look, I've been minding my own business at work when my manager suddenly shoved me into the soda machine. I turned around, about to start yelling at him, when I realised that another coworker was walking past with a huge tray of food, and we hadn't seen each other. Him shoving me (which hurt, mind you) was the quickest way for him to get both of us out of danger. Did I sue him for abusing me? No, because THAT ONE TIME, the painful shove was warranted."

Really? You are far to credulous of your male collegues self-serving baloney!
If the "tray of food" (wow, sounds dangerous) was really so close that you could be "saved" only by being painfully shoved that would mean that your boss placed his center of gravity in the path of the tray (or pushed you ACROSS the path of the tray instead of pulling you the quickest way out of "danger") and would not have had time to get himself out of the way. Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with the mess and expense of a spilled tray and shoved your female tuchis out of the way and did not really care if you got hurt; after all, it seems that you will buy any excuse given by the men who abuse you.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some texts to support this rather novel new approach?
I have some real quotes:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman...

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: Of course... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her.


"Look, I've been minding my own business at work when my manager suddenly shoved me into the soda machine. I turned around, about to start yelling at him, when I realised that another coworker was walking past with a huge tray of food, and we hadn't seen each other. Him shoving me (which hurt, mind you) was the quickest way for him to get both of us out of danger. Did I sue him for abusing me? No, because THAT ONE TIME, the painful shove was warranted."

Really? You are far to credulous of your male collegues self-serving baloney!
If the "tray of food" (wow, sounds dangerous) was really so close that you could be "saved" only by being painfully shoved that would mean that your boss placed his center of gravity in the path of the tray (or pushed you ACROSS the path of the tray instead of pulling you the quickest way out of "danger") and would not have had time to get himself out of the way. Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with the mess and expense of a spilled tray and shoved your female tuchis out of the way and did not really care if you got hurt; after all, it seems that you will buy any excuse given by the men who abuse you.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some texts to support this rather novel new approach?
I have some real quotes:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman...

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: Of course... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her.


"Look, I've been minding my own business at work when my manager suddenly shoved me into the soda machine. I turned around, about to start yelling at him, when I realised that another coworker was walking past with a huge tray of food, and we hadn't seen each other. Him shoving me (which hurt, mind you) was the quickest way for him to get both of us out of danger. Did I sue him for abusing me? No, because THAT ONE TIME, the painful shove was warranted."

Really? You are far to credulous of your male collegues self-serving baloney!
If the "tray of food" (wow, sounds dangerous) was really so close that you could be "saved" only by being painfully shoved that would mean that your boss placed his center of gravity in the path of the tray (or pushed you ACROSS the path of the tray instead of pulling you the quickest way out of "danger") and would not have had time to get himself out of the way. Or maybe he just didn't want to deal with the mess and expense of a spilled tray and shoved your female tuchis out of the way and did not really care if you got hurt; after all, it seems that you will buy any excuse given by the men who abuse you.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

Guy DeWhitney said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

GuyDeWhitney said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"No, I'm not. I'm saying that in the case of spiritual straying, when the man has the spiritual power to get rid of the wrongness with touch, and it's WARRANTED, THEN it's permissible. That's not beating someone out of anger, or because you feel like it."

Where are you getting this stuff? Care to give some QUOTES?

Like this:

President of Al-Azhar University and former Mufti of Egypt, Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, which aired on Nile News TV on May 25, 2007

Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: With regard to wife beating... In a nutshell, it appeared as part of a program to reform the wife...
Interviewer: I think we must stress that this pertains to a rebellious woman... This method appeared as part of the treatment of a rebellious wife. I am faced with two options - either the family will be destroyed by divorce, or I can use means that may bring my wife, the mother of my children, back to her senses... By Allah, even if only one woman out of a million can be reformed by light beatings... It's not really beating, it's more like punching... It's like shoving or poking her. That's what it is."

Or this gem!
"Dr. Ghazi Al-Shimari, a Saudi expert on family affairs"

Ghazi Al-Shimari: Beating is undoubtedly one of the methods to reform [wives]... the Prophet said: "Any woman whose husband is pleased with her when she dies enters Paradise."... If abandonment doesn't work, we move to beating...
Ghazi Al-Shimari: Yes. According to a hadith, Umm Zar' said to 'Aisha: "My husband is the epitomy of stupidity and impotence. He is afflicted with every possible defect. Either he wounds me, or breaks my bones, or both." ... So the Prophet decided: "Don't beat the women who serve Allah." Then Omar came and said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, the women have become insolent. We cannot take it anymore. You said not to beat women who serve Allah, so what should we do with them?" So the Prophet [re]approved [beatings], but said that those who beat "are not the best among you." ... The Prophet said: "If I were to order anybody to bow before anyone, I would order the wife to bow before her husband."... according to a reliable Hadith, a woman said: "Oh Prophet of Allah, I will not marry before you tell me what my husband's rights from me are." The Prophet said: "Do you really want to know?" She said: "Yes." He said: "If pus or blood comes out of your husband's nose and you lick is up, you still will not have observed all his rights." The rights of the husband are great, and you must observe them.

shoaib_70 said...

I've been reading this article and I must admit two points are missing out of this whole issue.

1. The reporting is from Aisha she is narrating the story so why don't you believe her other views of the same man? Aisha has reported him to be a prophet, a walking Quran so why not beleive that too?

2. Someone methioned that the West cannot see it that way. It's not up to us to show you the way it's clarifying the issue. If you believe or not believe is something we cannot make you do.

I think the brothers and sisters have done their best. We could have easily taken this Hadith out to make the orientalist happy but sorry the records stay the way it is. Unlike other books where they have chopped and changed so much that today it's become a joke rather than a word of God.


Good work and thanks to people who have asked sincere questions and got the answers.

shoaib_70 said...

Some of the things I wanted to point out from this article.

The story is being narrated by Aisha the Prophet's wife who also says that he is the Prophet of Allah and Islam is the true religion and he was the best man. Why is it so hard to believe those statements too?

Someone mentioned that the West does not see it this way. Does that peson know the history of the West and the treatement of women in the West?

How many other wives did Muhammad hit and how many times? Was it intentional or accidental? So the intention is very important. If he was a wife beater then he had 11 wives and all would have complaints against him.

If Muslims wanted to lie about this then all we had to do was not to put the records startight. We could have omitted it completely and made him look like a Saint. He was a Messenger of Allah and he did make mistakes and he corrected his mistakes too.

However this is not his mistake this was his method to remove doubt from his wife. Look at the wordings compared to the actions. And for those who think Aisha was a scared girl I think you better read her biography cause she was a lionness.

That's all I had to say.

honestlySpeaking said...

I like the explanation but don't believe it. Too many things are explained away as "bad translations" these days... as muslims as need to be honest with ourselves and accept the fact in Islam it is ok to strike your wife if she misbehaves. All early literature / scholars agree on this (I'm talking about verse 4:34 of course) and therefore the prophet striking his wife should not come as a shock.

I am not berating the prophet or trying to understand why he did what he did, but just saying as muslims we need to stop apologising to what the west calls 'human rights' and take an honest look at islamic rights, which are plain and explained 1400 years ago, which include you can under certain conditions strike your wife.

Abdullah said...

It is amazing that the haters of the Blessed Prophet Muhammed pick and choose a single line from the hadith and build up an entirely false case with no solid grounding to it. If we analyze the whole hadith, we see that on the night when it was Sayyidah Aaisha's turn, the Prophet left her house and visited the graveyard to pray for those believers who had already left this world. On returning, the Prophet realized that Aaisha had followed him. He asked her and she affirmed and he pushed her in the chest.The reason behind this was that the Prophet was the guardian of his family. He obviously did not like his wife Aaisha leaving the house following him during the night time. He cared so much for her that he pushed/struck her mildly in the chest which caused her some pain. The amazing thing is the last part of the hadith. After this, Aaisha asks the Prophet to teach her the prayer for the forgiveness of the dead. The conversation between them continued after the “push” and Aaisha, instead of getting offended, is asking the Prophet to teach her the prayer so that she could also pray for the dead believers. This whole issue does not even resemble a friction between husband and wife, let alone the hypothetical wife-beating situation concocted by these haters. The Prophet was so caring that when he was ordered by Allah to visit the graveyard and seek forgiveness for the dead, he did not wake her up lest her sleep be disturbed or she got frightened. I remember that as a child, when I did some silly things, my mother would twist my ear or hit me and I felt some pain but I would still laugh at it. While crossing the road, she would clasp my hand so hard that I would feel pain but behind all her actions, I knew that there was this element of overflowing love and care. Similarly, the Blessed Prophet also felt uneasy when he heard that Aaisha followed him during the night time and so pushed her mildly as a reminder. After that, the conversation continued between the loving couple and the Prophet taught this beautiful prayer to the curious-natured Aaisha and she in turn, taught it to her students relating along with it this interesting incident.

shrit110 said...

salaam alaikum brother,

did you read the quran434 research paper. after a detailed research this is the translation they have come up with.

The men are supporters/maintainers of the women with what God bestowed on some of them over others and with what they spent of their money, so the righteous women are dutiful; guardians to the unseen with what God guarded. And as for those women you fear their disloyalty, then: (first) you shall advise them, and (second) abandon them in the bed, and (lastly) cite them (to the authority). If they obeyed you, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great. [4:34]

still it's not close to original Arabic but it seems a good attmpt.

and the verse 4:35

And if you (authority) feared a rift between them two, then appoint a judge from his family and a judge from hers. If they both want to reconcile, then God will bring agreement between them. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. [4:35]

what do you think

ramadan kareem to every one

shrit110
http://www.youtube.com/user/shrit110

Zaibu said...

Jazak Allah khair for explaining this. I needed that. As for those who don't get it, their ego is their problem. They don't come to seek knowledge. They come to criticise for the sake of criticizing. Don't mind them. I for one have learned what I came to learn.