Tuesday, 16 August 2011

The Truth About Jesus

Do you want to learn about Jesus (p) and the history of early Christianity? If yes, then this lecture by Adnan Rashid will be of great benefit.

God willing, if I get time I will add notes from the lecture to this blog post.

The Historical Jesus



Questions of consideration

Did Jesus ever claim to be God? What kind of nature did Jesus have? Was Jesus Christ really crucified ? Who is God and Jesus in the Bible?

The Speaker: Adnan Rashid

Brother Adnan Rashid is a public speaker, debater and activist.He is presently studying history at university of London.

Adnan is a senior researcher for the Hittin Institute and has received popularity through his debates with a number of Christian clergy. He is presently serving as a Khateeb at a West London mosque and has appeared on a number of radio programmes to represent Islam and Muslims.

He specializes in the history of Islamic civilization, Sciences, numismatics, ancient manuscript and antiques.He is a public speaker with an experience of delivering presentations on Islamic topics in a number of universities.Adnan Rashid comes from a family of renowned scholars of Islam: his great grandfarher ( Shiekh Minhajuddin Bin Sirajuddin ).

What every Christian should know about the Old Testament

Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

53 comments:

Radical Moderate said...

Snowman snowman snowman

Did you honeslty think you could hide from me by posting this nonsense.

Isnt it bad enough this guy was refuted by a Atheist on the streets in Irland and made to look like a complete fool.

Yahya Snow said...

@RadMod

Hide from you?

Oh OK.

Bartimaeus said...

Frosty

I listened to the "lecture". The dude needs a history lesson and a lession in Christian theology.

Bartimaeus said...

Frosty

do you honestly think adnan made any compelling argument? all he said was jesus was not god and jesus was not crucified - the quran says so - case closed.

1MoreMuslim said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Radical Moderate said...

I finaly finished watching the video.

Snowman do you dislike this guy or something?

Anonymous said...

Bartimaeus,

Frosty is not big on history lessons. He likes fairy tales. After all, he is Frosty the Snowman. A further irony presents itself in the fact that the Snowman likes straw man arguments. And since he is such a gossip and slanderer, it can also be said that he likes ad hominem arguments, i.e. arguments against the man. So, snowmen, straw men, and arguing against the man. fiction and logical fallacies are his bread and butter, not history (or logic).

Anonymous said...

It's funny to see how muslims are so busy to make a "muslim Jesus" that never existed in one way or another on one hand, but will never deal with historical issues concerning Muhammad, Mecca and early islam on the another hand.
I asked once a muslim to bring me some historical and documented proofs that Jesus and the Apostles were muslims like his quran states, he told me the Church destroyed all the proofs or were hiding them in some weird caves (lol), never heard of him again...
This Adnan Rashid needs to do some serious historical research on early "islam" encounter with Christianity (or reed Robert Hoyland's book as an introduction).
And he needs to learn the basics of Christian Theology as well, 'cause right now he is just another muslim thinking he is a so called doctor while telling a bunch of lies to an audience that came to hear what they wanted to, deception as usual...

Bartimaeus said...

Frosty

What is so absurd abiut Adnan's revisionist view of history is that Muslims would never accept the idea that Arius was a Muslim. Arius still believed that Jesus was divne and prexisted before Mohammed.

According to Arius the Muslim Jesus was Allah's first creation and therefore has preimminance over Mohammed.

OOOPs

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya

Yoi must really dislike Adan Rasheed. Why else would you post not one but two embarassing video's.

Everything he said, was just WRONG. And he is teaching Muslims what is WRONG.

Bartimaeus said...

Radical

Sense when has Frosty been concerned about facts and accurcy? As long as it sounds plausible he will post it.

Anonymous said...

Lots of ad hominems and attacks on this commentboard from christian people

Anonymous said...

Number 9: Pagan Influence.

The religion of Jesus the son of Mary, alayhi sallam, was the antithesis of paganism and idolatry. However during the first few centuries after Jesus, there was no consensus on such things as which texts to include in the Christian canon, the role of Mosaic law, or whether Jesus was a man, a man-god or God. As early Christians struggled to create an orthodox identity, politicians and other unscrupulous characters took advantage and shaped Christianity to secure their own places of power and influence. Pagan customs and idolatry were Christianized and became part of the orthodoxy. A religion claiming to speak for the one true God must be free from such influences.

Number 8: The Bible is Inconsistent.

There is nothing wrong with a book written over thousands of years to contain stylistic differences. However, if the source is the same unchanging and perfect God then we expect a consistent and coherent message throughout. The Bible suffers from drastic schizophrenic changes. God’s very nature gets turn upside-down. The changes are so great that it is impossible for someone to give an intelligent description of God’s nature based on the entire Bible.

Number 7: Jesus Rejects Christians.

The Jesus of the Bible rejects those that preached and taught in his name. He casts them aside and disassociates himself from them because their work was evil and they were evil.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23.

This rejection is for the Trinitarian who ascribes Jesus as a partner to God, because there is nothing more evil and disgusting than ascribing a partner to God.

Number 6: Jesus Isn’t God.

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Luke 18:19

Does anything more need to be said?

Number 5. Jesus is Unknown.

No Christian knows Jesus. He is a mystery figure. There are arguments about what he looked like, what language he spoke, whether or not he ever married and whether or not he was crucified. Even the authors of the Bible are confused about him. Did he cry tears of blood out of fear for his impending death? What were his last words before he died on the cross? Did he leave Palestine and travel to Egypt as a youth? Was he killed on the day before or after Passover? On all these things the Bible gives conflicting answers. How strange that Jesus is so central to Christian theology and yet they are so ignorant about him. It might be that the only thing Christians and the Bible can agree on is that he existed

Radical Moderate said...

Snowman on second thought

Listen to Anad Rasheed, he knows what he is talking about, seriously all you Muslims use his argumentation please.

The Eubonites were Muslim
Constitene forced Christians to become trinitarians

The Historian Eusbias was a Aarian lol

Radical Moderate said...
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Radical Moderate said...

Its pretty sad when a quick wiki search is all that is needed to refute the nonsense on this site .

I thought about writing a response, but then I thought why? I mean if you guys can not even search google or wiki to see that what was presented in this video is complete garbage then why even bother.

Everything he said could easily be refuted just by copy and paste from wiki. But I know that even if I used "scholarly" sources and completely refuted what was said. It wouldn't matter. The Muslims on this blog would just repeat the same nonsense over and over again.


THe reason is simple, your not looking for people who are willing to do research, even if all it involves a quick trip to google or wiki.

Your trolling for people that Christ has already driven away (john 6). And those people, its not that they don't believe in God, its that they will believe in anything else except God. And they will make up reasons to not believe, just like they make up and invent new ways of doing evil.

So feel free to scoop up those people, and continue to look like complete idiots and fools to the rest of us.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

hey RM

Perhaps you need a little encouragement

quote:

But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
(1 Peter 3:14-15)


Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.

God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(2 Timothy 2:23-26)

end quote:

There is always hope!!

besides

And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me." And he said, "Go, and say to this people: "'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
(Isaiah 6:8-10)


peace

Radical Moderate said...

FMM

Thanks for the encouragment. But I remember a few posts ago, you were giving biblicaly sound explinations on the trinity. And the only response to all your work at the end of the day was words to the effect of...

"You do not know your religion...

"I am done talking to you since you are just making up your relegion as you go alone"

And the best

"I much rather prefer Christians who just say the trinity is a mystery"

In other words the Muslims on this blog at least and those that listen to Anad Rasheed are looking for a certin kind of Christian. One that can not give a response, those are the victims they prey off of.

Radical Moderate said...

FMM

I mean really could you imagine sitting there at work, or in the cafetaria or in a resterant and listing to a Muslim spout the nonsense that came out of Anad Rasheeds mouth?

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

You say,

I mean really could you imagine sitting there at work, or in the cafetaria or in a resterant and listing to a Muslim spout the nonsense that came out of Anad Rasheeds mouth?

I say,


I agree It’s more like a parody than a history lesson.


It’s important to remember though that folks like this guy are nothing but a walking testament to the truth of Romans 1:21.

And it’s also important to remember that there but for the grace of God go you and I.

God only told us to testify to the truth.

It’s up to him if he wants to use this as a means to call his elect or as a means to condemn rebels.

quote:


But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?
(2 Corinthians 2:14-16)


End quote:

Peace

Radical Moderate said...

FFM

Brother again thanks for the encouragment. Believe me I understand exaclty what you are saying. I'm not going hyper on you.

And your right there living romans 1:21 and few other verses.

Its just that I realized, these people are going to hell, and its no longer fun to make fun of them.

And I was thinking how would I respond to meeting one of Anad Rasheeds students?

When I realized that to someone who would just accept what Anad Rasheed fed them, it would't matter how I responded. Becasue they have a target audiance.

Maybe I'm just getting burnt out or maybe I'm growing or maybe it is a combination of the two.

I do know this, that we are not responding to the Anad Rahseeds or Yahya Snows of the world but to the elect. That we give a response for those that are called. We scatter the seed and more often then not it falls along the path, or on stony ground, or among weeds and thorns and it is a rare thing that it falls in good soil whom the father has called.

What I am questioning, is if there fertile ground amoung the rocks and weeds along the path of this blog? Or is it a town that we need to shake the dust off of our feet and move on?

BTW FMM when we going to see you on PT, we need another horsemen :)

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

You say,

Or is it a town that we need to shake the dust off of our feet and move on?

I say,

I’ve asked myself the same question

It really comes down to who we are talking to. Are we talking to the mockers or are we talking to the lurkers who might never post here but who quietly read and absorb what is said?

you say,

when we going to see you on PT


I say,

It would take a lot for me to begin visiting another venue

The internet already consumes too much of my time.

A person needs to spend time with real people face to face and smell some flowers.

A little more time in the word would also be good.


Peace

Erik Fadli said...

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

Adnan Rashid open his lecture cited Q 5:72

Audzubi-llahi min-asyaitani r-rajīm.

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary"

وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُم

while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord."

I watched the video, my summary is that he is fair and not at all provocative. He delivered this lecture intended for muslim students from a historian perspective and in the light from passages from the Quran and the Bible.

Why ad hominem attack?

Professor James Dunn, a modern day Trinitarian scholar also draw the same conclusion that the first Christians did not worship Jesus and they were within the ranks of the unitarians in affirming a simple monotheistic theology.

There was a departure from the faith once delivered, and it is measurable once someone says Jesus is God, making two Gods, which violates Jesus’ creed, that God is one God (Mark 12:29).

It is the later Christians to develop such practices which stands condemned as promoting the serious sin of idolatry in its worship of Jesus as God for the past 2000 years…

Islam teaches that the worship of Jesus necessitates shirk and a denial of monotheism.

Islam offers an appropriate evaluation of Jesus as Messiah, prophet, messenger and Word from God without falling into the errors of ‘Jesus-olatry’ (Christianity) or a denial of the divine mission of Jesus of Nazareth (Judaism).

Wassalam

Radical Moderate said...

@Erik you wrote...

"I watched the video, my summary is that he is fair and not at all provocative. He delivered this lecture intended for muslim students from a historian perspective and in the light from passages from the Quran and the Bible. "

You as a Muslim, since this was delevered to Muslims should be outraged. THe reason why you should be out raged is becasue EVERYTHING he said was just wrong. Totatly wrong, I dont even know if he even got the date right for the council of Nicea. If he did then that was the only thing he got right.

If you as a Muslim or any of these Muslim students where to repeat what they learned from this guy, you and they would and are being laughed at.

Just a few things that he got wrong.

1. The Christian historian ESUBIAS was not a ARIAN.

2. Esubias counted 220 total Bishops in attendence, there was not 200 bishops in support of Arius.

3. There was only 28 or 38 bishops in support of Arius.

4. Constantine did not force any thing on the council of Nicea that is just beyond absured.

5. Jerome did not write I repeat DID NOT WRITE "I am shocked to find the whole world arian" in protest he wrote "
the whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian".

6. He called the Ebeonites "MUSLIM" well if a Muslim can believe that Christ was crucified and died on the cross, and that he was not born of a virgin then I guess anyone can be a Muslim.

Speaking of which although Arian did not believe that the Son and the Father where of the same essensce and that there was a time when the son was not, inspite of clear teachings of scripture. He did believe that Christ was the first born of creation and the entire universe was created through him and by him. He also believed that Christ was created as a lesser God.

If this is what a Muslim historian teaches then is there any wonder that Muslims trail behind the west in EVERYTHING.

Sad so very sad. But what is even sadder, is the fact that a simple google search is all that is needed to completly refute morons like you who believe this crap. Really man get a clue. YOU WERE LIED TO BY THIS MAN.

Erik Fadli said...

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

Radfundie, what a character. You must show yourself restraint in calling other people. You act like a moron yourself.

I cant say much about accuracy of what Adnan Rashid have presented wrt the development of Trinity doctrin. Historian use written text and written eyewitness accounts to validate history.

I suspect there is also bias. All historians are people, most if not all people are biased.

Googling tho check your lists the result can vary.

As for what is considered Arian or ebiniotes etc. this lso the word may be up for interpretation as the definition can be relative.


But in essence I dont think he lies to his audience when speaking about Trinity.

The Bible, in both Old and New Testaments, is very emphatic about the absolute oneness of God. When asked which is the first commandment of all?"

Jesus (p) answered (Mark 12:29) -

"The first of all the commandments is; Hear, O Israel, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD."


He was quoting from the words of Moses in Deut. 6:4. This is the consistent story of the Bible.

There is not a word about three gods in it from beginning to end.


"Christendom" today has degenerated to a belief in three gods.

Some parts of Christendom have four gods, as the Roman Catholic Church, which has added a "Mother of God" who is in their system of belief the supreme deity beside a host of demi-gods.


The propositions constitutive of the dogma of the Trinity - the propositions in the Nicene creed were not drawn directly from the New Testament, and could not be expressed in New Testament terms. They were the products of reason speculating on a revelation to faith.

They were only formed through centuries of effort, only elaborated by the aid of the conceptions and formulated in the terms of Greek and Roman philosophy.


Wassalam

Radical Moderate said...

@Erik

Thank you for proving my point

Radical Moderate said...

@Eric

One more thing, you wrote..

"But in essence I dont think he lies to his audience when speaking about Trinity."

Then I gues you didnt listen to him, becasue if he had acuretly represented the doctrine of the Trinity you would of never typed this nonsense.

""Christendom" today has degenerated to a belief in three gods."

Or even this...
"Some parts of Christendom have four gods, as the Roman Catholic Church, which has added a "Mother of God" who is in their system of belief the supreme deity beside a host of demi-gods. "


Just to let you know here is the first sentence from the Nicean Creed.

"We believe in ONE God...."

Roman Catholics do not and have never beleived that Mary is a GOD. See that Allah lied to you.

Well have a nice day.

Erik Fadli said...

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

"..Just to let you know here is the first sentence from the Nicean Creed.

*We believe in ONE God* ..."


Alhamdulillah. So please detest those who say Jesus (p) is God.


"...Roman Catholics do not and have never beleived that Mary is a GOD. See that Allah lied to you..."


On the matter of the dogma of veneration of Mary, the Mother of God, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

"Called in the Gospels 'the mother of Jesus,' Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as 'the mother of my Lord.' In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly 'Mother of God' (Theotokos)" [C.C.C. # 495]

The term "Theotokos" is yet another theological mess to support the trinity.

Wassalam

Radical Moderate said...

Eric said...

"Alhamdulillah. So please detest those who say Jesus (p) is God."

Why would I do that, since Jesus is GOD. I detest people like you who mis represent, what Christians believe and then attack that miss representation. I destest people like you who deny that Jesus is GOD.

You then quote the catholic Catechism when it comes to Mary. So where exaclty in that Catechism do Catholics make Mary a GOD?

Anonymous said...

@ Erik Fadli

The communication of idioms should give the answers to your stupid claims or else you can step into a catholic church an repeat your foolishness but don't be surprised if everyone laughs at you.

1MoreMuslim said...

Ridicule Moderate:
Learn from your scholars:
CAtholics don't worship Mary!

Radical Moderate said...

1Milimeter

I never said Catholics did not worship Mary, I said Catholics do not call Mary a GOD, nor do they believe that the Trintiy is THREE GODS and Mary is a Fourth GOD.

1MoreMuslim said...

Ridicule Mod
Make sure I will not catch you saying that Jesus is God because he was worshiped ( like mary). Or Jesus is God because he forgives sin ( like Mary).

Radical Moderate said...

1milimeter

Jesus is rightfully worshiped as GOd becasue he is GOD. He is not God becasue we worship him.

Jesus can forgive sins becasue he is GOD, not becasue he can forgives sins.

In other words he is God becasue he is GOD, not because of anything we do or do not do.

Jesus is God because he has always been he is, and always will be God. He is eternaly begotten of the father and not created. He has a eternal relationship with the father as the Son, he was not created as the Son.

Radical Moderate said...

1milimeter

Something for you to contemplate.

Can someone worship someone or something that is NOT GOD? And by worshiping that someone or something do they make them or it GOD?

1MoreMuslim said...

Ridicule Moderate is now denying that Christians use the argument of "being worship" to prove that he is God. Ironically , James White against this same Adnan Rasheed, was arguing that Jesus is God because people bow to him ( just like Catholics bow to Mary)

Radical Moderate said...

1milimeter

Are you really this dense?


Amazing you do not even understand the argument that was being laid out.

James white did not argue that Jesus Christ is God because people worship him.

If I recall correctly the argument was put forward becasue of the lame muslim argument "Where did Jesus ever say he was GOd?".

So James White and others points out that he accepted WORSHIP and that CHRISTIANS from the very onset worshiped him. This was not something that makes him GOD. WE worship him BECAUSE HE IS GOD.

Now answer my question can someone worship something or someone who is NOT GOD? And if they do does that make what they are worshiping GOD?

Erik Fadli said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
1MoreMuslim said...

Ridicule Mod , you are in a state of denial 24/7.

Erik Fadli said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Erik Fadli said...

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

Although the Quran has special chapter dedicated to Mary, muslims never fell into Mariolatry.

Early christianity record Mariamites, Collyridian which consider Mary as God.

You may say they are heretical and current trinitarian Christianity as the orthodox view true of trinitarian dogma but since evolution of this doctrine itself is very late development then the Quran is right in rejecting Jesusolatry as wll as Mariolatry.


*Mother of God*

What do you make of that Mr. RadMod?

Wassalam

Radical Moderate said...

@1moremuslim

Ridicule Mod , you are in a state of denial 24/7.

So is that your response to my question?

If so then I can move on and leave your in your state of total ignorance.

Radical Moderate said...

@Erick you wrote...

"Early christianity record Mariamites, Collyridian which consider Mary as God."

Not sure on the Marimites or even if they are the same group as Coloridians.

However the little that is known about the Coloridians is that they were PAGAN to begine with and just included Mary into their Patheon.
THEY WHERE NOT CHRISTIAN.

If you consider these people as Christian then the Amadiens and Bahai's and "Schizmatics" and that group that Abu Bakr wiped out after your prophets death for not paying Zikat, and the group that is in control of Syria and many others are MUSLIM.

But the point remains, ROMAN CATHOLICS DO NOT CONSIDER MARY A GOD, nor DO THEY HAVE THREE OTHER GODS.

Your ALlah Ibn Mohamed got it WRONG.

Erik Fadli said...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

You dont get it do you rad?

The Quran consider ALL form of human worship is wrong. Shirk.
It dont care whether it is your form of trinitarian Christianity or the mary worship.

People worship to something they consider Divine. Unless they are nut of course.

Apparently Collyridian church survives to this day:

http://eternalfeminine.wikispaces.com/Collyridian+Ecumenical+Episcopal+Convocation

It is considered Ecumenical chruch by the way.

Wassalam

1MoreMuslim said...

Ridicule Mderate:

In the Islamic ( and Universal) system, if one worships something , he is making it God. In the bizarre and messy Biblical system, to worship a man means nothing: you have people who are worshiped without being considered as God.

Radical Moderate said...

@1milimeter you wrote...

Ridicule Mderate:

"In the Islamic ( and Universal) system, if one worships something , he is making it God."

Really you sure you want to go with that?


You then wrote...

"In the bizarre and messy Biblical system, to worship a man means nothing:"

First if you are refering to Christians worshiping Jesus, we worship Jesus becasue he is God who enter into flesh. So that means everything. Second to worship that which is not God is blasphemy. But since Jesus is GOD we "Rightfully worship him". I invite you Muslims to become true Muslims and worship your creator Jesus Christ being the second person whith the father as the first and holy spirit as the third.

You then wrote...

"you have people who are worshiped without being considered as God."

No I don't because I am not a Catholic. But more to the point yes they worship that which is not God, and they say it is NOT GOD.

So thank you for proving that YOUR QURAN IS WRONG.

minoria said...

RadMod is right,Catholics don't consider Mary as a goddess or deity.They don't say she is divine at all.

They pray to her and that is idolatry but they never think of her as a goddess.

The title "Mother of God" is merely honorific and METAPHORICAL.I don't agree with it prefering "Mother of Jesus" but in a METAPHORICAL way,since the eternal spirit of God the Son decided to enter into creation,unite with flesh,then in a purely metaphorical way she is called Mother of God.

Erik Fadli said...

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm


"..They pray to her and that is idolatry but they never think of her as a goddess.

The title "Mother of God" is merely honorific and METAPHORICAL.I don't agree with it prefering "Mother of Jesus" but in a METAPHORICAL way,since the eternal spirit of God the Son decided to enter into creation,unite with flesh,then in a purely metaphorical way she is called Mother of God..."


Now, if you were to state that Jesus was the Son of God, or Jesus is God

Why dont you say the same thing that the title "Son of God" or "God" is merely honorific and METAPHORICAL.

I doubt that by those words you are not stating that Jesus is Divine no less so than the Father etc.

The many times in which Mary is referred to as the divine Mother by Catholics, we will see that they have indeed elevated her to a God position and the cathechism also states at times that Mary is materially indistinguishable from God.

Have you ever read the devotion works by catholic saints such as St. Louis-Marie Grignion De Montfort, St. Alphonsus De Liguori

There are references there to suggest that from the omnipotent Son *the Mother was made omnipotent*.

Sincere people will find that Mary is being in a position of divinity, with omnipotence, supreme power and authority.

Only play of words from Calvinists Catholic defender which deny it.

Why don't we as God fearing people detest these things and proclaim God as ONE (Q 112:1)

Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deut 6:4)

Wassalam

Erik Fadli said...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحي

Rad,

Why let's us worship God, the one and true Lord of the Universe.

Scripture is always explicit concerning God that the Lord our God is one Lord' (Deuteronomy 6:6, Mark 12:29) never describing God as 'three in one'.

- Al Masih declared that it is eternal life to
knowthe Father as the only true God
(John 17:3 )

- The apostles repeatedly taught that
God is one, not the second, the third etc. 1 Corinthians 8:6

-God is shown as one person, not three
Exodus 24, Ezekiel 1, Daniel 7, Acts 7, and Revelation 4-5.

Wassalam

minoria said...

Hello Erik,

I really do not think any responsible Catholic intellectual,secular or religious, holds the position Mary is divine.But for argument's sake let's say it is true,even as early as the time of the Italian saint Liguori(1696-1787)

What about the 600's AD?

At that time:

1.The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church were still together.They separated in 1054

2.The doctrine of purgatory was still practically unknown,certainly not proclaimed by the Orthodox-Catholic church.

3.The high degree of Marian esteem was not yet what it is now,not comparable to the time of Liguori

Erik Fadli said...

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

Minoria,

The Qur'an never condemn your version of "true' Trinity.
Nowhere in the says that the Trinity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit or Mary (p) or whoever His creation is..

In fact, the Qur'an itself condemns all sorts of shirk, i.e., associating partners with Allah.
It would not matter if the Trinity was composed of any permutations and combinations of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or the Mary or even Calvin or Joseph Smith. It would still be considered as associating partners with Allah.

If you look at the verses in the Qur'an which say about of Trinity it is verse 4:171

..walā taqūlū thalāthatun..

(...وَلَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ...)

..And (do) not Say Three..

The imperfect verb ثَلَاثَةٌ is in the present continuous tense fi'il mudhāri' (فعل مضارع).

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=171#(4:171:1)

God forbid people to fall into Trinitarian mentality in the past now and in the future.

It is equally clear even in the Old Testament & The New Testament that the God is one God without any partners

Wassalam

Erik Fadli said...

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

Minoria,

The Qur'an never condemn your version of "true' Trinity.
Nowhere in the says that the Trinity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit or Mary (p) or whoever His creation is..

In fact, the Qur'an itself condemns all sorts of shirk, i.e., associating partners with Allah.
It would not matter if the Trinity was composed of any permutations and combinations of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or the Mary or even Calvin or Joseph Smith. It would still be considered as associating partners with Allah.

If you look at the verses in the Qur'an which say about of Trinity it is verse 4:171

..walā taqūlū thalāthatun..

(...وَلَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ...)

..And (do) not Say Three..

The imperfect verb ثَلَاثَةٌ is in the present continuous tense fi'il mudhāri' (فعل مضارع).

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=171#(4:171:1)

God forbid people to fall into Trinitarian mentality in the past now and in the future.

Minoria, let us whorship the One and True God. The Almighty God Who created Jesus (p) as it is still equally clear in the Old Testament & The New Testament that the God is one God without any partners.

Wassalam

Erik Fadli said...

Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

Minoria,

The Qur'an never condemn your version of "true' Trinity.
Nowhere in the says that the Trinity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit or Mary (p) or whoever His creation is..

In fact, the Qur'an itself condemns all sorts of shirk, i.e., associating partners with Allah.
It would not matter if the Trinity was composed of any permutations and combinations of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or the Mary or even Calvin or Joseph Smith. It would still be considered as associating partners with Allah.

If you look at the verses in the Qur'an which say about of Trinity it is verse 4:171

..walā taqūlū thalāthatun..

(...وَلَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ...)

..And (do) not Say Three..

The imperfect verb ثَلَاثَةٌ is in the present continuous tense fi'il mudhāri' (فعل مضارع).

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=171#(4:171:1)

God forbid people to fall into Trinitarian mentality in the past now and in the future.

Minoria, let us whorship the One and True God. The Almighty God Who created Jesus (p) as it is still equally clear in the Old Testament & The New Testament that the God is one God without any partners.

Wassalam