Christian Voice is clearly demonstrating Christian fundamentalism is live and kicking in the UK. Christian Voice is encouraging Christians throughout the UK to monitor council websites for mosque planning permissions so their lawyer can use a ‘winning formula’ to defeat these planning permissions.
TFAI would like to recommend that Stephen Green and his Christian Voice recommend their Islamophobic brigade of Christians actually ‘keep a weather-eye’ for Bible manuscripts, perhaps those dull enough to devote hours on council websites in the hope of thwarting mosque planning permissions would have enough gumption to trek off to the rubbish heaps at Oxyrhynchus (Egypt) and re-search them for Bible fragments. Oh wait, Christian Voice would rather have them wasting their lives staring at council websites than hunting for more Bible forgeries. I wonder why…
Christian Voice: Moqsue Watch
Here are the Islamophobic designs of Christian Voice laid bare in their November issue (page 2):
One immediate task which any local group – or indeed any individual – can start on is to keep abreast of planning applications for mosques and Islamic study centres, community centres and suchlike. We are in touch with a planning lawyer who has a winning formula for defeating Islamic planning applications, such as those in Dudley and Maidenhead. But he needs to know early in the planning stage and that is where we come in.
If any of our members feel called to keep a weather-eye open for such applications by devoting an hour or two a week to various council websites, please let us know.
Looks like these Christian fundamentalists are strongly bent (no pun related to Christian Voice’s obsession in attacking gays) on preventing people from worshipping the God of Prophet Jesus. May Allah guide us all. Ameen.
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hello thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com-ers iv just registered ,, tinas
What are you doing talking about "The God of the Old Testament" and "The God of Jesus"? Aren't you the guy who talks a lot but is afraid to debate these issues with a willing and knowledgeable Christian?
Snowman thanks for the info, you wouldnt have any contact info for this group. I had no idea until you informed me of such a great opertunity to defeat Islamic oppression in the west.
I'd like to be on the record saying that I wish that England and the Islamic nations had a first amendment like the fundamentalist hotbed USA.
quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
end quote:
Perhaps we can all agree on something here what do you say Muslims?
no restrictions on the free exercise of religion anywhere in the world including the right to evangelize apostatize and blaspheme.
How about it?
peace
fifth monarchy man, almost every western country classifies it as hate speech if ones religion is insulted.
the problem with evangelism is christians lie, cheat and deceive to spread christ. they offer gifts and money too. sorry but thats just idiotic. last time i checked greece banned protelyzing.
Ali said,
almost every western country classifies it as hate speech if ones religion is insulted.
I say.
That does not make it right. In the USA we know what every 4 year old knows.
"sticks and stones can break bones but words can't hurt you"
You said,
the problem with evangelism is christians lie, cheat and deceive to spread christ. they offer gifts and money too. sorry but thats just idiotic.
I say,
I agree that would be idiotic but it's even more stupid to make the idoitoc illeagl.
If someone would risk their soul for an earthly gift they are not really a believer anyway. I would think you would welcome the quality control.
You say,
last time i checked greece banned protelyzing.
I say,
So what? the Greeks are not famous for their brilliant govermant policy. especially right now.
Come on Ali join the cause of Freedom
"Religious freedom for everyone"
You're not scared of a little competition are you?
quote:
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson
end quote:
peace
Ali said,
almost every western country classifies it as hate speech if ones religion is insulted.
I say.
That does not make it right. In the USA we know what every 4 year old knows.
"sticks and stones can break bones but words can't hurt you"
You said,
the problem with evangelism is christians lie, cheat and deceive to spread christ. they offer gifts and money too. sorry but thats just idiotic.
I say,
I agree that would be idiotic but it's even more stupid to make the idoitoc illeagl.
If someone would risk their soul for an earthly gift they are not really a believer anyway. I would think you would welcome the quality control.
You say,
last time i checked greece banned protelyzing.
I say,
So what? the Greeks are not famous for their brilliant govermant policy. especially right now.
Come on Ali join the cause of Freedom
"Religious freedom for everyone"
You're not scared of a little competition are you?
quote:
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson
end quote:
peace
fifth monarchy, can you show me a new testament verse that speaks on religious freedom?
when we're in kindergarten we're told to respect everyone's feelings and beliefs. If you insult a religion in class you get sent to the principals office. its all about respecting the other person, not ridiculing him. people should exchange views and opinions on religions, and do interfaith dialoguing but all in a friendly and professional manner.
Ali said,
its all about respecting the other person, not ridiculing him.
I say,
The problem here is who gets to define what ridicule is?
When Lobo says I’m a polytheist he is ridiculing my Lord and my faith.
When a Muslim denigrates Jesus by calling him a mere prophet he is insulting my Lord and my religion.
In fact I feel that the very existence of the Quran is nothing but an extended insult to my religion because it is based on the premise that Christ's work and message are not suffeceint.
the same can be said for Islam's claim that God is unable or unwilling to preserve his word to us.
Yet I would not want Muslims to be prohibited by law from the expression of these kinds of vile attacks.
If I prohibit your constant ridicule when I'm in charge how can I complain when you prohibit the legitimate expression of my faith or the proclamation of the truth about your false Prophet
You say,
people should exchange views and opinions on religions, and do interfaith dialoguing but all in a friendly and professional manner.
I say,
I agree, The difficulty arises when we allow goverments to define what friendly and professional dialouge are.
peace
Ali said,
can you show me a new testament verse that speaks on religious freedom?
You say,
I’m not sure what you are looking for but let's see
Here is one that shows that Jesus is a real King with a real kingdom yet the Kingdom of God is not to be confused with an earthly carnal government.
Quote:
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."
(John 18:36-37)
End quote:
Here is one that says that God is not at this time exercising his rule directly over nonbelievers.
Quote:
Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me." But he said to him, "Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?"
(Luke 12:13-14)
End quote:
Here is one that shows that God's people are to obey God and evangelize regardless of what the government says.
Quote:
And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, "We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us." But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
(Acts 5:27-29)
End quote:
Here is one that shows that God's people are not physcally force others to submit to their wishes
Quote:
But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
(Matthew 20:25-26)
End quote:
Here is one to show that earthly Governments are not to be confused with God’s kingdom
Quote:
Is it lawful for us to give tribute to Caesar, or not?" But he perceived their craftiness, and said to them, "Show me a denarius. Whose likeness and inscription does it have?" They said, "Caesar's." He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
(Luke 20:22-25)
End quote:
Here is one that shows that people of God are not to use physical force in matters of Faith.
Quote:
For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
(2 Corinthians 10:4-5)
End quote:
I can give you more if you like
Peace
Hello Ali:
You seem to imply you agree with insulting a religion as being hate speech,which would be legally punished.
I know Muhammad and the Koran get alot of insults in this part of the world but as long as it remains words then it is freedom of speech.
Muhammad is a deceased historical figure and Islam is simply a set of ideas,not a person.
Now I have been investigating about "Jesus in World Literature" and I have been astonished by how much he is mentioned in it.He is a literary figure in:
Voltaire,Bulgakov,Saramago,Norman Mailer,Dostoevsky,Alexander Blok,Nietzsche,etc.
You can check it out in this article in French,more will follow in the future,which has links to the preceding four articles about it.
It is in French,which you can translate using GOOGLE TRANSLATE
http://translate.google.com/
http://www.avraidire.com/2011/12/v-article-sur-jesus-dans-la-litteraturelentrevue-imaginaire-par-voltaire-ou-il-parle-a-jesus/
fifth monarchy man , radical moderate , minoria :
Wishing you and your family a very happy / merry / fruitful christmas
@Sam1528
Thank you for your Christmas wishes. However I must point out to you that what you did according to Islamic scholars wishing a Christian Merry Christimas is the worse sin. Worse then gambling, worse then drinking, worse then fornicating and yes even worse then MURDER.
Merry Christmas worse then Murder
Hey Sam,
Thank you for the greeting.
I pray that someday God will show the mercy that will allow you to understand the full implications of that special birth in Bethlehem.
Quote:
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God with us).
(Isaiah 7:14)
and
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news (Gospel) of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
(Luke 2:10-11)
end quote:
In closing I'd like to again join the Angels in praying for Peace.
"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!"
(Luke 2:14)
Sam1528
Do you realize that wishing me and FMM a Merry and productive Christmas according to Islamic scholars is a worse sin then this...
Muslims bomb 5 churches in Nigera Killing dozens on Christmas
fifth monarchy man , radical moderate ;
Its very shallow of you radical moderate as christians have been the forerunner in killings and murders. All the other religions put together are still playing catchup.
It is haram if I congratulate you based on your idolatry. I am just wishing you for your day.
Fifth monarchy man , why do you celebrate winter solstice and substitute it for the birth of biblical jesus which was not dec 25 in anyway? Anyway you look at it , its just a pagan celebration with idolatry involved.
Sam1528
you wished us Kuffar a Marry Christmas, according to Islamic scholars you commited SHIRK. YOu need to repent to your GOD or you will go to the hell fire.
You also wrote...
"Fifth monarchy man , why do you celebrate winter solstice and substitute it for the birth of biblical jesus which was not dec 25 in anyway? Anyway you look at it , its just a pagan celebration with idolatry involved."
First winter solstice is on DECEMBER 21st NOT Decemember 25th.
Second I find it ironic that Muslims accuse christians of celebrating a pagan holiday when Islam is so chalked full of Pagan celebrations. Hajj, Ramadan, kissing the black stone... all these things and more were done by the Arab pagans.
Sam said,
why do you celebrate winter solstice and substitute it for the birth of biblical jesus which was not dec 25 in anyway?
I say,
1) Who said I only celebrate the birth of Christ on december 25?
2) How do you know when Jesus was born?
3) Is it a requirement in your culture that one must celebrate birth’s on the exact calendar date they occur on?
I don’t see any problem with choosing any or all dates to celebrate the Birth of my Savior in fact for me every day is Christmas?
Did you know that we in America celebrate Martin Luther King’s Birth date on the third Monday of January each year regardless of the calendar date?
The same thing goes for the birth’s dates of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (the third Monday of February)the actual calendar date has little to do with when we actually celebrate the birth’s of these men.
In these cases the celebrations are held when they are to take advantage of times when folks are already enjoying a break from the normal routine in this case creating long weekends
I don’t see anything wrong with choosing a time when everyone is off work and in a festive mood to celebrate the moment in time when the Word became flesh.
Do you?
It's not important when he arrived only that he came
Peace
sam said,
Its very shallow of you radical moderate as christians have been the forerunner in killings and murders. All the other religions put together are still playing catchup.
I say,
Do you have any facts to back up what you say?
Religions don't kill people people kill people.
On the other hand religious teachings might inspire people to kill.
We are all aware of the Islamic injunctions that these folks use to justify their actions.
Do you know of any teaching of Christianity that would inspire people to kill other people?
peace
sam said,
Anyway you look at it , its just a pagan celebration with idolatry involved.
I say,
We are weird at my house. When all the closet pagans in the neighborhood are dressing up like monsters or handing out candy in honer of holloween we wish folks a happy reformation day to call to mind the time that great revival that began on October 31 1517.
The fact that the local pagans are celebrating holloween at the same time I'm remembering God's faithfullness to his Gospel is not my concern is it?
Same goes for december 25 and the birth of Immanuel.
Hope that Helps
peace
The goal of Muslim Massacre, which can be downloaded for free on the internet, is to “ensure that no Muslim man or woman is left alive”, according to the game’s creator.
Players control an “American Hero” armed with a machine gun and rocket launcher who is parachuted into the Middle East.
By slaughtering all the Arabs that appear on screen – some dressed as terrorists, some apparently civilians - players progress to later levels where they take on Osama bin Laden, Mohammed and finally Allah.
The game’s creator, a freelance programmer known as Sigvatr, described the game as “fun and funny” and some players have interpreted the game as a critical commentary - albeit a crude one - of US foreign policy.
But Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of The Ramadhan Foundation, Britain’s leading Muslim youth organisation, said that the game glamorised violence against Muslims whether or not it was satirical.
“Encouraging children and young people in a game to kill Muslims is unacceptable, tasteless and deeply offensive,” he said.
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , looks like I have hit a raw nerve. Ok then , if you say so , I will repent and Allah is merciful that Allah forgives when his slaves begs for repentance. Are you happy now?? This is sooo shallow of you.
Different from you christians. You god needs to commit suicide for your salvation. Phew .... a god that commits suicide??? Reminds you of some pagan ritual ... doesn't it. Can you tell me which pagan ritual is such?? Did you have a merry winter solstice. Doesn't matter if its 21 or 25. Anything for a party ... right...
Who said hajj , ramadan , kissing the black stone is pagan?? Oops , must be your high priest of shamonian. Bet you don't know who was the person who introduced idols to mekkah. Are you now going to argue on the so called moon god??
fifth monarchy man ,
I think you need to educate your buddy in christ , radical moderate , of the following : '..Religions don't kill people people kill people..'
Tell me , how many people have christians kill in their bloody history compared to muslims?? You will be hard pressed. Even the US with every christian president , have been in some sort of war just about every year for the last 214 yrs (from 1776).
Why choose dec25 to celebrate biblical jesus birthday? I think you know why .... christmas originated from a pagan festival and you are too embarrassed to admit.
I can give you several verses that command to kill in the bible but I believe you will know better. The one that really stand out :
joh15:6 '..If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned..'
Killing of apostates. However radical moderate 'claims to the death' that it is being done by angels. Phew .... what mental gymnastics ... yeah ...
Sam says,
Tell me , how many people have christians kill in their bloody history compared to muslims??
I say,
I have no idea how many people christians have killed compared to muslims. one would expect more simply because there are more people who claim to be christian than who claim to be muslim.
However we know that claiming to be a christian is not the same thing as being one.
The real question to ask is which religion condones killing of people and which one does not. The answer to that one is odvious.
you said,
joh15:6 '..If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned..'
I say,
What?????
Do you beleive this is a command for an inanimate branch to burn other branches?
Think about it that is not even possible?
Come on man use your head in this story the only one who does the burning is the Gardener
A person would have to be insane to use this parable as a justification for killing another human being and to my knowledge no one ever has.
Is that the best you can come up with?
When you contrast a parable about God’s judgment with the many explicit commands in the Quran for people to kill their enemies and it you make my point for me
peace
Sam says,
Why choose dec25 to celebrate biblical jesus birthday?
I say,
I can think of lots of reasons
1) folks have some spare time
2) The days are beginning to get longer
3) It’s far enough away from Easter so as to not interfere with that celebration
4) It's close enough to new years Hanukkah to make a "holiday season"
5) There are often good football games on TV to watch with the family
etc etc etc
You say,
I think you know why .... christmas originated from a pagan festival and you are too embarrassed to admit.
I say,
I don't understand what you are saying Christmas is just a celebration of the birth of Jesus.
Are you saying that the birth of Jesus “originated from a pagan festival”? I’m not sure how as a Muslim you can make that claim
If are you just saying that December 25th was originally chosen because it was close to the time when the surrounding culture was already celebrating a festival,
I would just say what in the world could possibly be wrong with that???
Peace
@Sam1528
You wrote….
"Ha ha , looks like I have hit a raw nerve. Ok then , if you say so , I will repent and Allah is merciful that Allah forgives when his slaves begs for repentance. Are you happy now?? This is sooo shallow of you."
Thank you for demonstrating the shallowness of your god and just how un holy he is. I find it amazing how Muslims can sin so callously, even committing a greater sin then Murder, a greater sin then the Muslims who blew up the five churches in Nigeria and then just say so flippantly " I will repent and Allah is merciful that Allah forgives when his slaves begs for repentance. "
But what do you expect from a god who is so un holy, that he created man to sin, and if Man would not sin he would destroy man and replace him with another creature that would sin.
Sahih Muslim 6621
"Abu Ayyub Ansari reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: If you were not to commit sins, Allah would have swept you out of existence and would have replaced you by another people who have committed sin, and then asked forgiveness from Allah, and He would have granted them pardon.
Pasted from
Sahih Muslim 6622
"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them. "
Pasted from
What a god you have there Sam1528 a god that destroys the sinless and rewards the sinner.
You also wrote….
"Different from you christians. You god needs to commit suicide for your salvation. Phew .... a god that commits suicide??? Reminds you of some pagan ritual ... doesn't it. Can you tell me which pagan ritual is such??
Putting aside the miss representation of the atoning sacrifice as a suicide. Can you tell me what "Pagan Ritual" that reminds you of?
You then continue to demonstrate that Muslims don't let pesky things like "FACTS" get in the way of attacking the true living God when you wrote…
"Did you have a merry winter solstice. Doesn't matter if its 21 or 25. Anything for a party ... right…"
It does matter if the winter solstice is on the 21st and Christmas is on the 25th. It’s the difference of 4 days and 6.4 million miles relative to the Sun.
But be that as it may, I find it interesting that Muslims so willing commit suicide for their GOD so their God can save them but are repulsed by the true living God making atonement for the Sins of man out of his mercy and love for them. You see Sam1528 the true living God is HOLY he requires payment for Sin, he can not just ignore the sins of his creature.
You then demonstrate you ignorance when you write…
"Who said hajj , Ramadan , kissing the black stone is pagan?? "
IT wasn't Sam Shamoun it was TABARI who told me that pagans practiced all the things that Muslims practice, long before Mohamed came to town.
But hey you keep sinning Sam1528 don’t stop or Allah will destroy you. Just please repent and come to the true living God and accept the sacrifice that Christ made, before you commit suicide so your un holy GOD can save you.
fifth monarchy man ,
from you :
'..However we know that claiming to be a christian is not the same thing as being one.
The real question to ask is which religion condones killing of people and which one does not. The answer to that one is odvious...'
I too can play the same game. People kill not Islam. Which religion condones killing?? You should know by now there are more explicit verses in the bible of such. Attempting mental gymnastics??
Whoops!! Joh15:6 is about a gardener?? So now biblical jesus is the gardener?? Ha ha , the length you christians go thru in order to justify your lovey dovey man god is really funny. A good historical example : servetus was burnt at the stake for being a perceived heretic by the 'christian church'. Looks like a leaf taken from joh15:6 , agree??
fifth monarchy man ,
from you :
'..If are you just saying that December 25th was originally chosen because it was close to the time when the surrounding culture was already celebrating a festival,..'
TQ , the surrounding culture was pagan. Therefore christmas was / is an offshoot of a pagan celebration. It is just a continuation of a pagan celebration and not the birth of your man god in biblical jesus ...
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , the difference is that we muslims repent directly to Allah in faith / truthfulness we are confident Allah will forgive us. However you christians have this pagan concept of a human sacrifice not mentioning a man god committing suicide for your salvation. Hollow is not the word. Its craziness.
Ha ha , so now you agree that the roots of christmas is just a pagan festival ... who cares ... any excuse for a party ... right??
Your true living god requires payment for sins and not forgive? Then your true living god is a shylock. He is just like an illegal money lender.
So what about sahih muslim 6621/22?? It doesn't mean the righteous were wiped out. The context mean that Allah forgives. Pssst , it not like the shylock god of yours ... holey (not holy) spirit maybe ...
Whoops!! Tabari said so?? Ha ha , but he did such for his hajj. Ha ha , looks like you are barking at the wrong tree as usual. Can you now justify to me your claims of
(1) hajj
(2) ramadan
(3) kissing the black stone (is it a form of worship??)
was pagan?? BTW , was biblical jesus pagan as he fasted for 40 days / nights.
Ha ha , everybody sins but Allah forgives with truthful repentance but the shylock god of you christians need blood for payment. The best part he forces his son to commit suicide for the sins of others and you call it justice.
I say,
Which religion condones killing?? You should know by now there are more explicit verses in the bible of such.
You say,
I’d sure like to see one. So far you’ve provided a parable about the final judgment and claimed it was about killing people.
You say,
Whoops!! Joh15:6 is about a gardener??
I say,
Yes this parable is about a gardener who prunes a vine. Can you not read?
You say,
So now biblical jesus is the gardener??
I say,
No God is the gardener and Jesus is a vine in this parable. You can read it for yourself if you like .
Come on Sam. You are better than this
You say,
A good historical example : servetus was burnt at the stake for being a perceived heretic by the 'christian church'.
I say,
Actually Servetus was wrongly executed 450 years ago by the government not the Church.
His punishment was directly contrary to the Bible’s teaching that the punishment for such things is only excommunication (1st Corinthians chapter 5).
quote:
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
(1 Corinthians 5:11-13)
end quote:
Contrast that with Yousef Nadarkhani who is under the sentence of death right now in 2012 in an Islamic country for the crime of merely accepting the genuine revelation of God in the Bible.
Can you show me a passage from the Quran that shows this punishment to be wrong?
Peace
Sam says,
everybody sins but Allah forgives with truthful repentance
I say,
can you define "truthfull repentance"?
I can't see how a person that is selfish by nature can truthfully repent.
Would not our repentance always be tainted with a selfish desire to escape the punishment that God’s holiness demands and our conduct deserves?
peace
Sam says,
TQ , the surrounding culture was pagan. Therefore christmas was / is an offshoot of a pagan celebration. It is just a continuation of a pagan celebration and not the birth of your man god in biblical jesus ...
I say,
Lets apply your logic consistently and see what we get......
A requirement to celebrate the festival of Hanukah is not found in the Hebrew scriptures and the modern celebration only arose in America in the last 150 years or so.
Does that mean that Hanukah is just a “continuation of a pagan celebration” and not commeration of the miracle where the oil for the menorah in the Temple lasted for eight days?
Do you really want to claim that the celebration of Hanukah has nothing to do with remembering the accomplishments of the Maccabees? but is just a "continuation of the pagan celebration of Christmas"
Come on Sam, use consistant logic for once.
Peace
fifth monarchy man ,
from you :
'..Yes this parable is about a gardener who prunes a vine. Can you not read?..'
A parable is a story / verse which has instructive principles. Therefore joh15:6 is a parable for dealing with people who have decided not to be with biblical jesus , ie. apostates. There is no other way to interpret the said parable.
'..Nonetheless, Michael was tried for heresy, this time by a Protestant city council. He continued in an attitude of superior knowledge and called John Calvin "Simon Magus" an "impostor," and more..'
'..The Geneva Council voted to condemn Servetus for heresy and called for his execution. The Swiss churches of Berne, Zurich, Basle, and Schaffhausen encouraged this move..'
church history
Its pretty clear isn't it? Servetus was executed according to biblical laws by the council in judging him being a heretic and the said judgement had the full support of the then church.
Who was the author of 1Corinthians 5:11-13?? If you read carefully ,
(1) the author is the one giving the edict and not once stating such edict is from god
(2) nothing about apostasy
(3) 'purge' has a wide meaning can also mean to kill as a means to 'purge'
Has this so called Yousef Nadarkhani been executed?? BTW from 'Morhabat News' , an iranian christian newspaper , he was charged with apostasy. Interestingly :
'..Yousef Nadarkhani, a 35 year old non-Trinitarian cult member..'
'..known as "Branhamists", because of their denial of the doctrine of Trinity..'
'..These individuals are the followers of an American preacher, William Marion Branham, who is claimed by his followers to be the last of God's prophets on this planet..'
morhabat news
Are they christians from your POV being a trinitrian christian?? If not , according to your bible these people are apostates and need to be executed by being burning them on the stake. I have not even brought up the verses from the OT with regards to apostasy.
fifth monarchy man ,
A 'truthful repentance' is when one repents and do not repeat and will not repeat his / her sins. 'InsyAllah' we will be forgiven by Allah as Allah is all merciful. However in the christian theology , another , an innocent , needs to die for the sins of others. The so called 'son of god' has been forced to commit suicide (as he went willingly) by his so called 'father'. This is a pagan concept of blood atonement.
Hanukah has been claimed to originate from 1 / 2 maccabees. If it does not have any origins from the jewish bible , then its an innovation similar to christmas. The one being logically inconsistent is you. The hajj , ramadan is in the Quran / sunnah whereas christmas is not mentioned in the bible. What say you??
Sam1528 you wrote...
"A 'truthful repentance' is when one repents and do not repeat and will not repeat his / her sins. 'InsyAllah' we will be forgiven by Allah as Allah is all merciful."
So what if a Muslim repeats his sins so then that is not true repentence?
You then continue with your misrepresntation of the ONLY MEANS you have for salvation, when you wrote...
However in the christian theology , another , an innocent , needs to die for the sins of others. The so called 'son of god' has been forced to commit suicide (as he went willingly) by his so called 'father'."
So when Jesus said "it is my life to lay down, it is my life to pick up again" that means he was forced to you?
Also you do know htat it is Islamic Doctrine that Muslims will be replaced in hell with Christians and Jews. Arent we inocnet of your filthy sins?
So how come we are paying twice in hell once for our sins and a second time for the filthy sins of Muslims.
and then finaly you make the demonstration of your ignorance complete when you wrote...
"This is a pagan concept of blood atonement."
Show me where Pagans had such a concept as Blood Atonment I can show you in the TANAK.
Sam said,
A 'truthful repentance' is when one repents and do not repeat and will not repeat his / her sins.
I say,
So if drug lord kills all his rivals and has no need to do it again that counts as a “true repentance”?
what about an adulterer who gives his wife AIDS and then decides that he does not enjoy fooling around after all?
What about sorrow for offending a Holy God and real remorse for the pain caused?
It seems to me that you have a very low standard of what repentance is.
you said,
If it does not have any origins from the jewish bible , then its an innovation similar to christmas.
I say,
So now the pagan influence stretches to disqualify Hanukah as well.
Do you also think that new years and the fourth of July are pagan festivals?
Sam says,
What say you??
I say,
I think it might be a good idea to lighten up and relax.
Judging other peoples choice of Holidays is a sure way to increase your stress leval for no good reason.
Besides If God has no problem with it why should you?
quote:
Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
(Romans 14:4-6)
end quote:
peace
Sam said,
Therefore joh15:6 is a parable for dealing with people who have decided not to be with biblical jesus , ie. apostates.
I say,
No argument there. The problem is that you seem to believe that the abiding branches in the parable are to destroy the offending branch.
That just makes no sense.
It’s the Vine dresser /Gardner who destroys the pruned branches to say otherwise is just plain nonsensical.
You say,
The Geneva Council voted to condemn Servetus for heresy and called for his execution
I say,
Again I agree the Geneva Council was not a Church it was a government. That is exactly what I said before. You on the other hand incorrectly said he was executed by the church. Do you wish to apologize?
You say,
Its pretty clear isn't it? Servetus was executed according to biblical laws
I say,
Please provide the Biblical law you are referring to. Surely you don’t mean a parable about the last judgment(John 15).
You say,
Who was the author of 1Corinthians 5:11-13??
I say,
God that is why we call it scripture. Please try and keep up
You say,
(1) the author is the one giving the edict and not once stating such edict is from god
(2) nothing about apostasy
(3) 'purge' has a wide meaning can also mean to kill as a means to 'purge'
I say
1) what part of “With the power of the Lord Jesus” and “God judges those outside” are you confused about
2) since Jesus is God apostasy is Idolatry (verse 11) by definition
3) purge (greek exairō) is used 5 time in the NT. It means to lift up or take away out of a place or to remove never to kill.
To even suggest that it could mean kill butchers the language and it shows careless disregard to context.
You say,
Are they christians from your POV being a trinitrian christian??
I say,
I’ve never met Yousef so I don’t know what he believes. I know that folks often believe things that their sect does not approve. This is especially the case in places where persecution is rampant.
Besides I don't care if he is a follower of the flying spaghetti monster he should be not be killed for his faith.
You say
If not , according to your bible these people are apostates and need to be executed by being burning them on the stake.
I say,
If you are going to make an outrageous charge like that I expect you to back it up. Give me chapter and verse or every one here will know you are being dishonest.
Is such dishonesty about what the Bible teaches condoned in Islam?
While we are at it please answer the question I asked.
Give me a verse from the quran that says that this man should not be killed for what he believes.
Thanks in advance
Peace
radical moderate ,
from you :
'..So what if a Muslim repeats his sins so then that is not true repentence?..'
Then it wouldn't be repentance ... would it??
According to christians like you , biblical jesus went willingly to his death thus he committed suicide.
Christians like you will not replace muslims in hell as you will go to hell as you have already committed shyrik with your polytheism. However the christians / jews who were true muslims have been guaranteed heaven.
Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good – they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve [on the day of judgement]‘. [5.69]
Isn't human sacrifice a pagan concept? Isn't biblical jesus so called death on the cross a human sacrifice? Therefore the concept of salvation in christianity is paganism. Why are you trying to twist the issue by repeating the question of pagans in their blood atonement??
fifth monarchy man ,
Since when can a drug lord by killing his rivals be repentance??
If the husband who transmitted AIDs to his wife repents , Allah will forgive him but the said husband still needs to pay for his wrongdoing to his wife. There are 2 facets here (1) sins against Allah (2) sinning against community , ie. wife.
The funny part , in christianity .... no problems with the drug lord killing nor the AIDs transmission to wife as biblical jesus already paid for such sins ...right?? Accept jesus ... you are ok ...
Ha ha , why are you diverting to hanukah , 4th of july?? We are talking about christmas , its pagan roots and continuation of the pagan celebration which has nothing to do with the birth of biblical jesus.
Sam says,
The funny part , in christianity .... no problems with the drug lord killing nor the AIDs transmission to wife as biblical jesus already paid for such sins ...right?? Accept jesus ... you are ok ...
I say,
Sam you seem to have an incorrect idea about God's forgiveness.
For the Christian salvation requires true Faith genuine repentance and submission to the Lordship of Christ.
The problem is no one is able to do any of these things because of our overwelming selfishness.
I love myself to much to surrender my entire existence to God unless I think I’ll get something in return.
The problem as I see it is how does a sinful selfish rebel truly and selflessly repent believe and submit to Jesus as Lord.
So far you are too busy with the ad homin and straw men to explain how this is possible in your system
I’m waiting
peace
fifth monarchy man ,
So now we agree that joh15:6 is parable about punishment for apostates. The bit part of the said verse '..such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned..'. This is to rid of the said branches. The method is by burning the said branches. The parable does not state that biblical jesus will do it but an instruction to burn such 'branches'.
You want me to apologize for what?? The church supported such sentence on servetus. At that time in europe , the councils members were probably church members and guided by the bible. Back tracing ... it still boils down to the edict of the bible. There is no 2 ways about it.
You are being very vague. Who was the author of 1Cor5:11-13?? Bit part of that verse '..But now I am writing to you..'. It is the author's judgement , not god.
(1) where is it in the said verse that states '..With the power of the Lord Jesus..'? '..God judges those outside..' means that your god not you will judge non christians. What point are you trying to make??
(2) the start of verse 11 '..now I am writing to you..'. It is the opinion of the author of 1cor5 , not the words of biblical jesus. Why are you assuming '..since jesus is lord..' in the context of the said verse??
(3) I am not sure about your contextualization of purge. Your buddy , radical moderate , claims that the bible interprets itself. If I connect joh15:6 with 1cor5:11-13 , purge will mean 'kill' or specifically 'burn them'.
You are now backpedaling. To put it bluntly , the certain folks which I can safely assume you are one of them consider people like yousef nadarkhani apostates or heretics.
You should know better of such verses. deut13:12-16 , this verse can be linked with joh15:6. Pls don't come back and say , the OT don't count.
The question still remain. Has this person been executed? If you had followed the case , the supreme court has thrown out this case on the grounds of it being incomplete.
My question to you , where in the Quran that states death for apostasy?? There is a completely opposite verse : '..there is no compulsion in religion..'(2:256)
sam says,
why are you diverting to hanukah , 4th of july?? We are talking about christmas
I say,
It's called asking for consistancy.
If you are going to disparage Christmas and are consistent you will also belittle hanukah and the 4th of July.
Since you don't do that I know that you are just flinging mud at anything claiming to be Christian to see if you can make some of it stick.
I find your obsession to be fascinating
peace
fifth monarchy man ,
From you :
'..For the Christian salvation requires true Faith genuine repentance and submission to the Lordship of Christ..'
That is where you have contradicted yourself. What happens if the so called drug lord / AIDs of a husband genuinely repent. According to the bible they will be forgiven for their sins against god. Why do they need any blood atonement?? Biblical jesus never talked about blood atonement.
In Islam , if these people repent , 'insyAllah' , Allah will forgive them. That is their sins against Allah. However they still owe the society for the damage they have caused and it has to be addressed.
Why are you asking the same question? Are you expecting a different answer??
fifth monarchy man ,
I think the obsession is all yours. I am addressing christmas but you are hell bent in your diversion. Now you are talking about hanukah / 4th of july. Why do you do that??
Isn't it a fact that christmas is a continuation of a pagan festival?? It has got nothing to do with the birth of biblical jesus.
Sam said,
The parable does not state that biblical jesus will do it but an instruction to burn such 'branches'.
I say,
Come on man use your head.
How can an inanimate branch do any thing? Branches don’t kill other branches. The fact that you are trying to twist a parable saying what God will do at the Judgment into instructions for the murder of apostates contrary to the clear commands of scripture only shows to desperation of you position.
You say,
You are being very vague. Who was the author of 1Cor5:11-13??
I say,
I'll Let the word of God clarify it for you
Quote:
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
(2 Timothy 3:16)
And
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(2 Peter 1:20-21)
End quote:
The author of Schripture is God I'm not sure how much clear I can make it.
you say,
Pls don't come back and say , the OT don't count.
I say,
the comands of the OT were made to the theocratic kingdom of Israel not to the Church. It would be sin for me to follow a command that was not made to me.
Think about it just because God told Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son does not mean that I should do the same.
use your head man
You say,
My question to you , where in the Quran that states death for apostasy??
I say,
Are you saying that It is not permissible in Islam to kill apostates???
Are Iran and all other islamic nations acting in an unislamic way when they punish apostates.
I would love it if this was true
maybe we can make some news here
Hey Muslims do you agree with Sam?
Do you condem this action in the name of Islam?
Now is your chance to make a difference stand up for freedom!!!
peace
You say,
In Islam , if these people repent , 'insyAllah' , Allah will forgive them.
I say,
What do you mean by repent?
That is what I'm asking
I understood you before to say somthing like "not do it again" is that what you mean?
You say,
Why are you asking the same question? Are you expecting a different answer??
I say,
because I don't understand what you mean by repentance.
I can't see how it is possible for a selfish person to change their nature.
If I stop sining for selfish reasons that is not true repentance.
come on Sam lets have a real discussion and not get bogged down with the trivial or strawmen.
peace
you say,
Isn't it a fact that christmas is a continuation of a pagan festival??
I say,
no.
You say,
It has got nothing to do with the birth of biblical jesus.
I say,
I disagee, For me it's all about the birth of Jesus. I read the story with my family we sing songs about the event we pray and thank God for his unspeakable gift.
Unless you have somthing more than december 25 is close to the time of a pagan festival can you please give it a rest.
peace
The early Christians and Pagans shared many rituals and practices. It is easy to spot pagan influences copied by Christians.
During the 3rd century CE, Mithraism and Christianity were the main competitors for the religious affiliation the citizens of Romans.
- Many early Christians celebrated Jesus' birthday on JAN-6. Armenian Christians still do. In Alexandria, in what is now Egypt, the birthday of their god-man, Aion, was also celebrated on JAN-6.
- According to an ancient Christian tradition, Christ died on MAR-23 and resurrected on MAR-25. These dates agree precisely with the death and resurrection of Attis.
- Baptism was a principal ritual; it washed away a person's sins. In some rituals, Baptism was performed by sprinkling holy water on the believer; in others, the person was totally immersed.
- The most important sacrament was a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize the god-man's body and blood. His followers were accused of engaging in cannibalism.
- Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.
- Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica. Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.
- At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.
- An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." 1 In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)
- The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.
- In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.
There were many additional points of similarity between Mithraism and Christianity. 2 St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did:
- Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.
- Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.
- Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.
Hey Didache,
How do you know that Christians borrowed these things from the Mystery religions?
Why not the other way around?
I find it to be especially interesting that you think that baptism was borrowed from the pagans. Are you not aware of the Jewish ritual bathing?
Do you really believe that Christians learned of Animal sacrifice from Attis instead of Leviticus?
Surely you know that the date for easter comes from the Jewish passover that predates the Attis cult by hundreds of years.
are you really trying to say that Christians got the idea to share a meal from Mithraism instead of the passover celebration as well.
You do know that Jews have been shareing bread ritually long before a mystery cult took up the practice don't you.
If Christians really got these things from the mystery religions and they just happen to correspond to the far older Jewish practice then instead of being evidence against Christianity it would be powerful evidence for it’s divine origin.
We all know that what is going on here.
What you have done is copy and paste from a atheist website which in turn just surveyed writings about pagan practices looking for anything that sounded even remotely similar to Christian practice and then fashioned the tiny snipits of narrative to sound as much like Christianity as they possibly could leaving out all context and providing no supporting documentation from original sources.
This sort of thing is so 1970’s.
Peace
peace
@Sam1528
You wrote...
"Christians like you will not replace muslims in hell as you will go to hell as you have already committed shyrik with your polytheism. However the christians / jews who were true muslims have been guaranteed heaven. "
Really man go and learn about your own theology before you start making false allegations about the True living GOD.
For you...
"Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)"
"Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)"
"Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)"
" Narrated Abu Musa: Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.
(This Hadith IS SOUND and mentioned in Mustadrak of Hakim). (110 Hadith Qudsi (Sacred Hadith), translated by Syed Masood-ul-Hasan, revision and commentaries by Ibrahim m. Kunna [Darussalam Publishers and Distributors], pp. 19-20; capital and underline emphasis ours)"
I can already hear your response...
1. You got that from Sam Shamoun.
Answser NO I didnt but even if I did so what.
2. That is a week hadeeth.
My Answer "Ok prove it."
3. That hadeeth is corrupt it was invented by the jews.
My Answer "LOL yeah those jews are every where, they are so powerfull they can corrupt your scripture.
4. NO resposne at all, instead you will just rant on with your false accusations.
fifth monarchy man ,
from you :
'..It's called asking for consistancy.
If you are going to disparage Christmas and are consistent you will also belittle hanukah and the 4th of July..'
I differ as it is evidence of inconsistency from you. We are arguing about christmas and now you are trying to divert the issue to hanukah and 4th july. Why should I belittle hanukah and 4th july with you. You are a christian , you are not bothered with hanukah / 4 july (no doubt it is a day for americans). Can you focus on christmas which is a christian religious festival??
fifth monarchy man ,
from you :
'..How can an inanimate branch do any thing? Branches don’t kill other branches. The fact that you are trying to twist a parable saying what God will do at the Judgment into instructions for the murder of apostates contrary to the clear commands of scripture only shows to desperation of you position..'
That is why the said verse is a parable. The said verse complements the verses in the OT with regards to killing of apostates. You on one hand admit that its a parable but then turn around and say '..Branches don’t kill other branches..'. First its a parable then it become literal .... inconsistency again.
For the 3rd time - who is author for 1Cor5:11-13?? The said verses stated clearly that it is the author's judgement ... not god.
If you claim that the author of 1cor5:11-13 is god therefore biblical jesus was just a man as he never claim himself to be god and peter in acts2 claimed that biblical jesus was man accredited by god. Your god has spoken ...
Can you now give me a name of a peaceful apostate from Islam who has been executed by the state for apostasy in 1400 yrs of Islam?? History will speak for itself.
Pastor Nadarkhani under biblical laws would have been burnt on the stake - no questions asked as he is deemed a heretic by trinitarians like you. Historical facts have shown that during the time when the church was in power , killing of apostates / heretics were very common.
What is there to condemn as the person has not been executed.
fifth monarchy man ,
Repentance in Islam : '..Repentance is to repent from the heart, to train the heart into obedi ence and to make a firm resolution never to commit the sin again..'
repentance in islam
What is your issue now? We muslims do not need a man god to commit suicide on our behalf.
-----------------
Of course to you christians , christmas on 25 dec is about the birth of biblical jesus. However the problem is that biblical jesus was not born on 25 dec. Its is just a spill over of a pagan festival. I don't mind giving it a rest but you are the one twisting and turning defending the issue like crazy.
radical moderate ,
Poor you!! You have taken a leaf out of your high priest of shamonian argument about the so called substitutionary atonement. As usual you have got it wrong :
This has been answered countless times and I will just copy paste a response from the MDI website :
'..The hadiths mentioned from Sahih Muslim basically mean: for every Muslim that is saved from hell BY ALLAH’s FORGIVENESS, there is a truth-rejecting Christian or Jew that will go to hell. There is no mention of atonement or substitution, merely a statement of proportionality..'
'..if there exists any Sahih hadith (a narration whose narrators appear reliable) and whose interpretation is clear, but is not reconcilable with the Quran, the Islamic Scholars have agreed that it is thrown out of consideration. This is because the Islamic scholars of knowledge have consistently taught “Khabr ul Ahad la yufid ul ilm” – single chain narrations do not benefit [certain] knowledge..'
so called substitutionary atonement
This has been addressed so many times. You are just rehashing already refuted arguments.
BTW , there is no man god committing suicide to take on the sins of others in the islamic theology. Such concept is just plain paganism.
@Sam1528
You wrote...
"The hadiths mentioned from Sahih Muslim basically mean: for every Muslim that is saved from hell BY ALLAH’s FORGIVENESS, there is a truth-rejecting Christian or Jew that will go to hell. There is no mention of atonement or substitution, merely a statement of proportionality"
So these words in the hadeeth
" Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire."
and
"No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. "
"There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians."
"They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy."
So the words "DELIVER, RESQUE, ADMIT IN HIS STEAD, PLACE IN THEIR STEAD, and UNLOAD THE SINS, and PUT THE SAME OVER TEH JEWS AND CHRISTIANS"
Really means that there will be a equal amount of jews and christains who go to hell to the number of muslims who escape hell.
That response is as pathetic as your god.
It must be really sad to have such a relegion that you have to make up oppostie meaning for clear teahings.
I invite you Sam1528 to repent and turn from your pathetic god, and embrace the True living God who is the only God that is worthy of your worship. Repent pick up your Cross and Follow Christ.
I ask you just like Christ told the rich young ruler to go and sell your faith in your false God and follow Christ the only one that can save you, and you will have eternal life.
@Sam1528
Let me demonstrate how patheitc that response was.
Sam1528 holds a pepsi in his hand radical moderate "unloads the pepsis" from Sam1528 and "puts" in his hand a coke in its "Stead"
Sam1528 is drowning in a pool, Radicalmoderate "Delivers" a life jacket to Sam1528 and says "This is your resque from" drowning in the lake.
Sam1528 wants to enter resterant but the owner "ADMITS IN HIS STEAD" someone else.
So sam tell me, in the above examples am I sayin that
1. For every pepsi you hold in your hand I am giving you a coke?
2. If you are drowning in a swimming pool is there a equal amount of life vests that are drowning in that swimming pool?
3. If you are prevented from entering a resterant a equal amount of someone else is let into the resterant?
or am I saying that
1. I have poured out your pepsi and replaced it with a coke instead.
2. I have given you a life vest to save your life.
3. The reserant owner has prevented you from entering teh resterant and instead has let someone else in your place.
Sam says,
Can you now give me a name of a peaceful apostate from Islam who has been executed by the state for apostasy in 1400 yrs of Islam??
I say
In about 5 min I came up with
Hossein Soodmand who was charged with apostasy and sentenced to death by hanging Iran - December 3, 1990
And Leocritia George, Aurelius Natalia, Felix and Liliosa and the other Martyrs of Cordoba
Servetus was not executed for apostasy but for blasphemy. I know of no one who was ever executed for apostasy from Christianity. The reason you know about him is because his death was so controversial at the time.
On the other hand right now death for apostasy is the law of the land in Iran and Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia and I see no demonstrations in the streets protesting this even in 2011.
One can only assume that there was even less controversy in the past .
I have no way of knowing or verifying how many martyrdoms are carried out by the state and how many are done by individuals with state permission or sanction. For the martyr it makes no difference who actually does the killing.
The real question is does Islam condone this kind of punishment and it seems to me the answer is clear
Quote:
"Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17
and
"Whoever changed his (Islamic) religion, then kill him" Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57
End quote
I would love to be proven wrong on this one how about it Muslims. Will you take a stand for freedom againist Bukhari ?
You say
What is there to condemn as the person has not been executed.
I say,
The man is in prison right now under the sentence of death simply for what he believes and you don’t see anything to condemn.
That says it all.
Peace
sam said,
Repentance is to repent from the heart,
I say,
what does this mean??????
If I repent for selfish reasons does it count????
For repentance to be genuine Christians believe ones entire perspective must change from selfish rebellion to selfless submission. Do you agree???
The Bible calls this sort of radical transformation like being "born again".
For us it's not just "a firm resolution never to commit the sin again..'"
That is why I brought up the examples I did
Come on Sam please engage me in a real discussion instead of just cutting and pasting definitions and constructing straw men.
peace
Sam says,
You on one hand admit that its a parable but then turn around and say '..Branches don’t kill other branches..'. First its a parable then it become literal .... inconsistency again.
I say,
It’s not about parable verses literal it’s about parable verses nonsensical.
Parables are simple stories that relate profound truths they are not lumps of clay that can be molded to mean what ever you want them to mean.
Lets do a little simple exegesis shall we
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
(John 15:1)
In this parable Jesus is the vine and the Father is the one who prunes the vine and cleans up afterward (the vinedresser)
Vines provide nourishment to branches and branches bear fruit because of the nourishment of the vine and pruning by the vinedresser.
Vines don’t prune themselves and branches don’t clean up afterward. Any rational person can see this if you are so blind as to somehow misunderstand
There is this
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
(John 15:5)
There you Jesus plainly says
"You can do nothing"
As would be expected branches bear fruit. Since they are branches they can do nothing but that.
They don’t clean up the garden they don’t prune other branches
They are completely passive in this story they only bear fruit.
The work is done by the vine who provides the nutrients and the vinedresser who prunes and cleans up the garden.
A four year old could easily understand this
I am done explaining such a simple story if you can’t see the obvious I give up.
peace
@Sam1528
I just noticed this. You wrote...
"from you :
'..So what if a Muslim repeats his sins so then that is not true repentence?..'
Then it wouldn't be repentance ... would it??"
This is interesting because of the famous story I have heard repeated time and time again.
The story goes that a man who had murdered 99 people felt sorry for all those he had murdered. So he went to see some kind of relegious leader a scholar or priest etc...
The murder asked the priest or scholar if there was anything he could do to repent of the 99 murders. The scholar or priest replied "No there is nothing you cvan do"
So this repentent murder responded by killing the preist or scholar.
So he went to another town and found another preist or scholar and asked him if their was anything he could do to repent of the now 100 murders he had commited. This preist or scholar was obviously more wiser then the first one becasue he responded with ... "Go to such and such a town and ask them and they will tell you what you need to do to repent"
So the man road out and before he could get to that town he died.
So the question is by your standard was this man truely repentent of the 99 murders that he had comitted since he killed the 100th man after he was told that there was nothing he could do to repent of the previous 99 murders?
I almost forgot
sam says,
If you claim that the author of 1cor5:11-13 is god therefore biblical jesus was just a man as he never claim himself to be god and peter in acts2 claimed that biblical jesus was man accredited by god.
I say,
No Christian ever denied that Jesus is a man. Where did you ever get the idea that we did? If Jesus was not a man he could not provide atonemnt for us and we whold have no hope.
The problem arises when you say contary to the revelation of God in the Bible that he was "just a man".
That is not what the Bible says that is what those who deney the schripture say.
peace
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
Hi FMM,
You really have a lot of time in the internet.
Im starting to suspects this "FMM" account are just a group of evangelicals nutters in self delusion mission to convert muslims and destroy Islam.
Im asking you again, do you have a name?
You dont seem to enjoy this holiday season.
Btw, have you stopped eating pork yet??
We must obey God's order
Wassalam
@Erik you wrote...
"Btw, have you stopped eating pork yet??
We must obey God's order"
Have you stopped eating shell fish, have you stopped eating camel.
Why don't you obey Gods orders?
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , poor you again. You are basically arguing blind.
From you :
'.." Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire."..'
Why can't the RESCUE be forgiveness from Allah??
From you :
'.."No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. "..'
Why can't the admission of IN HIS STEAD be the kaffirs filling up the vacancy left by the RESCUED muslim??
Reconciling the 2 : Its forgiveness of Allah that rescue the muslim from hell and the vacancy left behind will be filled up with people like you. The big question : where is the so called substitutionary atonement that you have argued sooo far?? Again barking up the wrong tree .... the story of your life.
I have already copy pasted the response refuting your really pathetic argument. It comes from the Quranic verse that no one is responsible for the sins of others. Here is another from bro bassam zawadi :
'..Volume 9, Book 93, Number 542:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "Some people who will be scorched by Hell (Fire) as a punishment for sins they have committed, and then Allah will admit them into Paradise by the grant of His Mercy. These people will be called, 'Al-JahannamiyyLin' (the people of Hell)."..'
hell to heaven by Allah mercy
Oops .... got you again ...
In fact you are intellectually dishonest to claim coming up with the argument yourself as its just an argument taken from your high priest of shamonian.
Conceptually there will be an equal number of kaffirs filling up the vacancy in hell left by the RESCUED muslims. Isn't it a 1 to 1 filling in?? Such a simple concept and you screwed up sooo badly.
From you :
'..So the words "DELIVER, RESQUE, ADMIT IN HIS STEAD, PLACE IN THEIR STEAD, and UNLOAD THE SINS, and PUT THE SAME OVER TEH JEWS AND CHRISTIANS"..'
DELIVER / RESCUE / UNLOAD THE SINS : forgiveness from Allah
ADMIT IN HIS STEAD / PLACE IN THEIR STEAD / PUT THE SAME OVER TEH JEWS AND CHRISTIANS : the jews and christians filling up the vacancy left by the RESCUED / DELIVERED / UNLOAD THE SINS muslims
What is soooo difficult to understand?? The Quranic verse of 35:18 have refuted you.
Arguing blind with pathetic rhetoric of pepsi / coke / swimming pool / drowning won't get you anywhere but it is evidence of the hollow / shallow theology of christianity.
You want to invite me to 'the true living god'?? Biblical jesus never in any one time admitted that he was / is god. Are you dreaming?? Why should I being a muslim embrace paganism (aka christianity)
fifth monarchy man ,
Since you want to be technical about it , Hossein Soodmand was executed due to apostasy and proselytising. We all know the underhand tactics of christian proselytising is well documented from phoney aid for the poor / hungry in exchange for conversion to christianity to kidnapping orphans from disaster struck areas.
What about the martyrs of cordoba , they were christian monks not muslims. You can call them martyrs but they disparaged Islam. At that time , if you disparage christianity , the church will take the same action.
Ha ha , servetus was executed on the grounds of blasphemy?? Do you now at that time changing from one denomination to another is already considered apostasy??
I repeat my question : who was a peaceful apostate that has been executed by an Islamic state?? Soodmand was executed due to apostasy and proselytising.
Ha ha , now you give hadiths about the so called death sentence for apostasy?? Such is easily refuted by this article from loon watch (a non muslim site)
apostasy in islam and christianity
The background of hadiths you mentioned - its during war.
Interestingly : Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 92, Number 424t:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah As-Salami:
A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance for embracing Islam to Allah's Apostle, and then he got an attack of fever in Medina and came to Allah's Apostle: and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my pledge." Allah's Apostle refused to do so. The bedouin came to him again and said, "Cancel my pledge," but he refused again, and then again, the bedouin came to him and said, "Cancel my pledge," and Allah's Apostle refused. The bedouin finally went away, and Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace), it expels its impurities while it brightens and clears its good.'
Any execution??
Its about time you admit that its only in christianity / bible that have an injunction to kill peaceful apostates.
fifth monarchy man ,
If one repent for selfish reason , it wouldn't be repentance from the heart ... would it?? This is crazy.
What discussion are you looking for with regards to repentance? Ha ha , accepting biblical jesus death means born again and genuine repentance?? No sane mind can accept this. Repentance is a promise that one will never repeat one's sin and one is sorry. You asked for such definition , it has been provided.
The big question : why should the death or another erase the sin of another?? This is a pagan concept. Repentance is between god and the person ... nothing to do with the supposed suicide of a so called man god to erase one's sin.
fifth monarchy man ,
Do you know the definition of a parable??
Why are jumping from a parable to literal? Simple , it is because you are dishonest in your argument.
joh15:1-3 is just the will of god , who being saved and condemned. joh15:5-6 clearly states that 'you' are the branches. By not remaining in him (biblical jesus) the said branch is picked up , thrown and burned. Isn't that an instruction to burn the said branch or in other words , burn the apostates??
Come on , the very least exhibit some intellectual honesty.
--------------------
If no christian ever claim that biblical jesus was a man , why did peter in acts2 claim as such?? acts2:22 '..Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him..'
The context of it : peter claimed that biblical jesus was a man , he performed miracles , an act of god thru him (biblical jesus). Is peter christian?? Was he speaking for himself or it was god speaking thru him?? Even the disciples of biblical jesus admitted that he was / is just a man.
radical moderate ,
The question now : has the man repented? If he had , he wouldn't have killed the first wise man ... would he??
There are 2 things here
(1) has the man repented to Allah??
(2) repentance to Allah is one thing , however he needs to atone for his wrongdoing to the community and seek their forgiveness as pointed out by the second wise man.
Reversing the challenge :
How will be his repentance be in christianity? He accepts christ and suddenly everything is good for him? Accepting christ and repenting are 2 different things. What about his crimes to the community??
How is the concept that biblical jesus suicide atone for his sins? Biblical jesus did not do of such. How is the mechanism of the so called sin transfer or sin erasure?
What happens if he is already a christian?? Biblical jesus need to commit suicide for the 2nd time??
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
RM,
Do not eat pork!
Thats God's order.
Shellfish, there is no specific references in the Quran
There are scholars who classify crabs and prawns as fish regard it as permissible to eat.
However, there are many Ulama who do not classify them as fish, hence it is better to abstain.
I personally are abstain from it.
No eating camel?
Is this the Gospel of George W. Bush are you preaching again?? pathetic.
Wassalam
@Erik you wrote...
"RM,
Do not eat pork!
Thats God's order."
I say
Do not eat Camel or Shell Fish!
Its God's order.
"“Yet of those that chew the cud or have the hoof cloven you shall not eat these: the camel, the hare, and the rock badger, because they chew the cud but do not part the hoof, are unclean for you." Deut 14:7
"And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: 11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination." Leviticus 11:10-11
sam said,
If no christian ever claim that biblical jesus was a man , why did peter in acts2 claim as such??
I say,
no I know your problem you cant read. What I said was
No Christian ever denied that Jesus is a man.
LOL
No wonder you are having trouble with John 15.
peace
hey eric,
you said,
You really have a lot of time in the internet.
I say,
I'm on vacation this week.
you say,
Im starting to suspects this "FMM" account are just a group of evangelicals.
I say,
Just me and the Holy Spirit.
You say,
Im asking you again, do you have a name?
I say,
I do but I would just assume not share it in a forum like this to protect my family.
Ive been threatened in the past and it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to my loved ones.
If you lived near me I would be happy to have you over for lemonade but as it is I don't expect us to be chums.
You say,
You dont seem to enjoy this holiday season.
I say,
I'm a Puritan when it comes to all holidays I think for most folks they are just and excuse to party. but that's just me
You say,
Btw, have you stopped eating pork yet??
We must obey God's order
I say,
I agree and when it comes to food in the New covenant God explicitly says
In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." But Peter said, "By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has made clean, do not call common."
(Acts 10:12-15)
and
And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
(Mark 7:18-19)
Who am I to prohibit what God does not prohibit?
peace
sam said,
The question now : has the man repented? If he had , he wouldn't have killed the first wise man ... would he??
I say,
Again please explain what repentance is.
The haddith says he repented now you say he did not. I'm confused
Is repentance just not doing it again? Then most murderers have repented since they only do it once.
please explain. What does "true" repentance entail in Islam?
Is it the same as Christian repentance? Is it changing selfish rebelion for selfless submition to God?
Is it like being born again???
peace
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
FMM on against God's prohibition of eating pork:
"..
Acts 10:12-15
Mark 7:18-19
.."
Can you please be more honest?
Context please.
The vision does not say that at all.
Here is Peter’s understanding of what the vision was all about:
He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that **I should not call anyone impure or unclean**. (NIV Acts 10:28)
My take on Mark 7:18-19 is to do with false disciple Paul evangelization among the Pagans.
Paul knew that there were first Christians who were objecting to those who "eat anything" (Romans 14).
The pro pauline scribes then introduces their own political agenda to createa a divison to those who are stilll keeping the dietary laws and those who are not by their editorial addition in Mark 7:19, "Thus he declared all foods clean"
Allow all that is forbidden, to be acceptable.
Great way to get those Pagans to become Christian.
Wassalam
@Sam1528
You asked
"Why can't the RESCUE be forgiveness from Allah??
and
Why can't the admission of IN HIS STEAD be the kaffirs filling up the vacancy left by the RESCUED muslim??"
The simple answer WORDS HAVE MEANING.
Hey while your making stuff up then why not just say that the when your allah says
Do not eat pork or drink alchhol it really means that you are to drink alchol and eat pork.
Now as far as your first question.
It is RESCUE from allah the rescue is a JEW or Christain being placed in hell INTSTEAD of a Muslim.
TO answer your second question...
Filling up the vacancy's lol
Oh man so then Christians only go to hell when there is room.
Come on man its just pathetic this resposne of yours.
I invite you again to pick up your CROSS, BEND YOUR KNEE and Save yourself from the corrupt and wicked generation.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
RM,
Thanks for the Deut 14:7.
I must apologize I never know that there is specific Camel prohibition in book of Deuteronomy.
My short answer is I don't follow it because the Qur'an or authentic ahadith never says so (although I never eat Camel meat in my life :D))
Interesting thing is I just learn that in a hadith it is said that eating Camel meat nullify the wudu, there must be something unclean about it.
Wallahu 'alim
Wassalam
fifth monarchy man ,
You are going around in circles. Since you claim that the bible is the word of your god therefore
(1) Nowhere in the bible at any one time biblical jesus ever claimed to be god
(2) His disciples claimed of him to be a man not god or man god
Therefore biblical jesus was / is a man not god or man god. How come christians like you regard biblical jesus to be god or man god??
The problem you have with joh15 is that christians have this shallow claim about not killing apostates and they are extremely embarrassed with biblical verses that in any way implies killing of apostates.
--------------------
You asked for the definition of repentance , it has been provided. Why are you still asking what is true repentance?? The issue is that if the person had repented , he should have not killed the 'first' wise man. In context , he could have repented somewhere between killing the first wise man and meeting with the second wise man. This is logical .... isn't it?? Can you do the following :
(1) go back to the site I provided and list the points of repentance
(2) list your christian understanding of repentance
Compare them. Can you do that??
Why do you need biblical jesus to die for your sins if you have the avenue to repent? It is already a contradiction.
radical moderate ,
Then you are playing with words as usual. Everyone else understand context. The quranic verse has been provided that states no one bears the sins of another and a hadith stating that the muslim will be rescued from hell by Allah mercy (ie. forgiveness). Reconciling the Quran / Hadith with the hadiths you mentioned
(1) the said muslim gets rescued from hell by Allah mercy (ie. forgiveness)
(2) the vacancy left by the said muslim gets filled up with christians (like you)
Where is the so called substitutionary atonement that you so argued like crazy??
Which part of it that you don't understand? This shows that you are a shallow person who is embarrassed by the christian theology of substitutionary atonement. Yet you are inviting us muslims to christianity of which christians like you have changed to a religion with pagan undertone.
Sam1528 you wrote....
"Then you are playing with words as usual. The only one who is playing with words is you sir.
You also wrote...
"Everyone else understand context. And by everyone you obvioulsy mean everyone but you.
You wrote..
"The quranic verse has been provided that states no one bears the sins of another and a hadith stating that the muslim will be rescued from hell by Allah mercy (ie. forgiveness)."
Yes it is allahs mercy that he places a Jew or Christian in hell INSTEAD of a MUSLIM.
Sam1528 seriously how can anyone expect for you to deal with honeslty with the text of Chritians and Jews when you can not even deal honestly with what your own texts teach.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
RM,
See here your clerics scuffling at the place where Jesus supposedly born.
What a display of peace and harmony.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LhDMCRlFAxs
If your learned men right in your holiest place do this kinna stuff no wonder your religion have been champion in large scale mass murder.
Happy brawling new year
Wassalam
radical moderate ,
from you :
'..Yes it is allahs mercy that he places a Jew or Christian in hell INSTEAD of a MUSLIM.
Sam1528 seriously how can anyone expect for you to deal with honeslty with the text of Chritians and Jews when you can not even deal honestly with what your own texts teach..'
Why not Allah place trinitrians (aka shamonians) like you in hell?? Even the god man that you worship admitted that god is one but you in your stubborn ignorance insist 3 in 1. I believe people like you deserve such punishment by Allah unless you repent.
What text are you still ranting about?? I quoted from the highest authority that is the Quran. Therefore the hadiths you quoted (and abused) need to be reconciled with the Quran , not the other way around.
By the way , you are twisting your words again. No where in the said hadiths you quoted stated or in context : '..it is allahs mercy that he places a Jew or Christian in hell INSTEAD of a MUSLIM..'.
This again is evidence of your inconsistency and dishonesty.
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