Thursday, 30 September 2010

Peter Lumpkins on James White's Obsession (Ergun Caner): A Muslim’s Perspective

A View on Peter Lumpkins' Mockery of James White

SBC Tomorrow’s Peter Lumpkins has been taking James White’s critical approach towards Ergun Caner to task. His latest post pushes the boundaries and is a pretty startling exhibition of mockery of James White; one which highlights the divide between the supporters of Ergun Caner and the critics of Ergun Caner. White has (somehow) propelled himself into pole position as far as the critics of Ergun Caner go – he seems to have gone further than Mohammad Khan.

Mohammad Khan (mokhan247) diligently highlighted the discrepancies in Caner’s claims but James White has not only latched onto Khan’s investigations but has managed to repackage his work as an effort to “clean up the ministries” and call Caner to “repentance”.

James White continues to focus on Ergun Caner despite Caner’s “punishment” of demotion at Liberty University. Quite simply, Ergun Caner has been investigated by Liberty University but White feels dissatisfied with the “justice” handed out by Liberty University. Here’s Peter Lumpkins priming us for his cartoon-mockery of James White:

I honestly thought Reformed apologist, James White, had finally realized the entire evangelical world does not agree with his weird obsession with all things Ergun Caner. But he's up to it again on his site.

Of course, Christian disunity is nothing new and James White has criticised quite a few other Christians in the past. Lumpkins lists the names of some Christians who have been at the end of White’s tongue-lashing on the past:

Well, let's see: over the past few months apologists Ergun Caner, Emir Caner, Norm Geisler, Bill Craig, and Josh McDowell have been taken to the high court before the indefatigable, Judge White, and their ministries have been found--shall we keep it clean--wanting.

Notice the name Geisler? Norman Geisler is a big fish in Christian circles – criticising him takes a lot of courage!

Who is Right?

Before going to Peter Lumpkin’s cartoon-mockery of James White, Tom Ascol and Turretinfan we should ask ourselves who is right

It is quite clear Ergun Caner’s pronouncements contain problems; it is thought these were borne out of Caner’s desire to embellish or “sex-up” his past life as an alleged former Muslim.

James White, on the surface of it, is actually operating from a higher moral surface. White reckons Caner should have been made an example of and public repentance should have been sought; he feels a “cover up” has taken place. Some of this is surreal…you’d think we were talking about the CIA and shifty politicians; we are not, we are talking about ministries and church leaders!

The problems James White faces

James White is not alone as Muslims also feel Ergun Caner was not “dealt with” appropriately. However, White’s continual pursuit of Caner appears to be an “obsession” and even a hounding of Ergun Caner.

Furthermore, White risks being labelled as “unchristian” as White’s approach lacks any charity to Ergun Caner. Regular folk will view this superficially and see Caner either having been punished or cleared of serious wrong-doing thus James White would be unintelligible and unjust in the mind of the average Joe – some of these average Joes are within the Caner camp.

The second problem James White faces is that of intention, is James White going to such lengths in order to “further” the church or is it merely a case of settling old scores and attention-seeking. A.M Mallet mentioned the insignificant nature of James White’s Alpha and Omega ministry:

It is fairly clear that the evangelical world doesn't hold the Sunday School teacher from the small church in Arizona to the same level of esteem as he holds himself. Liberty University pretty much ignored him. Dr. Caner certainly pays him no mind. Dr. Geisler doesn't even know he exists anymore.

Regular folk could well wind up viewing White as a bloke trying to grab some publicity for his ministry – much like the misguided pastor who recently courted publicity by declaring his scheme of burning copies of the Quran.

James White’s biggest obstacle in the Ergun Caner affair

Third problem, James White lacks consistency - this is the biggest problem (in the view of Muslims). White has got himself stuck between a rock and a hard place. Here’s the thing, if you are going to rebuke Ergun under the guise of honesty and integrity you have to have a consistent track record. White lacks this track record.

James White’s friend Sam Shamoun has been guilty of worse actions than Ergun Caner yet White has never bothered to rebuke him or ask him for public repentance. This is one of the reasons why White is struggling to garner support on the issue of Ergun Caner. Browse the Sam Shamoun section on this blog and you will notice for yourself the debauched activity of this chap – he even makes up his own Quranic Verse translations in order to convince people Islam allows bestiality!

Finding “White Muslims” :)

Fourth problem, James White has not got Muslims on side. White has a strange record of shoddy, inconsistent and unorthodox scholarship when it comes to discussing Islam. He has been found (publicly) to be using/espousing made up (erroneous) translations of the Quran in order to attack Islam, why would he refuse to use authorised translations of the Quran (some of which are by Christians) in favour of spurious unauthorised (made up by his friend) translations? See here and here for more information.


James White’s co-host on ABNSat, Pastor Joseph, has been caught claiming Islam allows homosexuality…one of the pastor’s friends on the same show claimed Islam “encouraged” homosexuality. Come on…anybody who has researched Islam for a week knows James White’s colleagues are ignorant and/or liars


The featuring of Nabeel Qureshi’s faulty translation does not bode well for White’s public relations either.

In addition, Muslims are unlikely to actively support James White because his friend regularly abuses Muslims and has recently called Muslims a “cancer”. Come on, it’s like a bloke who is pals with Hitler asking Jews to support him!

Here is the cartoon mocking James White...decide for yourselves if it is unbecoming or not. I personally felt it was unwise

GoAnimate.com: J.Oakley White's Obsession with Ergun Caner by peterlumpkins

Like it? Create your own at GoAnimate.com. It's free and fun!

Being just to White, Turretinfan and Tom Ascol

The cartoon video mocking James White et al, in my view, was unjust. I feel the cartoon went too far. Why portray Turretinfan as a dog? Did Tom Ascol have to be in the cartoon, what exactly did he do wrong?

Furthermore, White (on the surface of it) appears to have the moral high ground – he is calling Ergun Caner to account. Obviously White has a bee in his bonnet about what he deems to be a “cover up”. Why mock him when you can email him or get somebody from Liberty University to explain the reasoning behind their decision and finally put the issue to bed, once and for all…

James White to have the last laugh?

If James White can somehow solve the problems outlined (see above) Ergun Caner would be in for a real roasting. At the moment the Canerites such as Peter Lumpkins are operating the oven and James is being burnt into submission.

Is James White a Doctor? Who cares!

Sorry, I know I have a tendency to yap on (no cartoon-related-pun intended) but his doctorate being allegedly unaccredited is not such a big deal. The insignificance of the question related to his doctorate is greater considering the White-Caner saga is one of integrity and honesty…NOT one of academia. Think about it, folks.

Who are James White’s “Islamic bedfellows”?

A.M Mallet wrote:

Even his old Islamic bedfellows have turned on him. He takes pretty pictures on his bike rides though.

As far as I know White has never had Muslim supporters. Perhaps this person confused the folks on ABNSat (an Arab Christian satellite station) as Muslims. I don’t know but would like to know who he/she was referring to. The plot thickens.

Teaching Islam

Neither Ergun Caner or James White should be teaching Islam - they are not qualified in the subject. White is reliant on dodgy missionary websites for his information and has the infamous Sam Shamoun as a teacher whilst Ergun Caner is also unlearned in the subject despite claiming to be a former Muslim. Here's a suggestion, how about you folk get a few Muslim Sheikhs into your classrooms to teach Islam (I'm sure they will be less costly than White, Caner or anybody else you had in mind)....failing that at least get a reliable Christian with some serious study and/or qualifications behind him/her.

Am I the only one who subscribes to this logic?

Now I get to sign off in true Peter Lumpkins fashion…

With that, I am
Yahya Snow
:)

FEEDBACK: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yahya

Thanks for taking the time to critique my satire. A couple of things.

First, of course it is mockery; but one would be hard pressed to find legitimate satire which lacks ridicule.  Some form of mockery remains within the core of this genre. Given that, the presence of other characters (Ascol and "Turrentinfan") should not surprise (Tom Ascol’s debut into this fiasco actually constituted the “opening shot” on EC via a twitter comment. Even more, the legendary “Turrentinfan” is a notoriously anonymous blogger colleague of JW).

Hence, it’s hardly worth asking, therefore, but I will: how could it be considered *unjust* to mock a phantom? An anonymous person?

Second, you offer one quote from my brief commentary on the satire and two quotes from the comment thread in your piece. While the first quote from my commentary is correctly attributed to me, neither from the comment thread is correctly attributed.Both were written by another.

All said, I appreciate your take on the matter and agree with much of what you’ve concluded.

Thanks again, Yahya.
With that, I am…

Peter

Mohammad Khan said...

Great Article!

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

This is all very disturbing. It however makes me realize something maybe we Muslims should not complain to much at the abuse that we take from these people.

After all look how Christians treat each other. The cartoon which has 'turetinfan' as the dog vomitting on the book (which most likely has Biblical notes on it) was very disturbing indeed.

Yet James is between a rock and a hard place how can he continue to associate with and endorse some very shoddy statements of Qureshi, Shamoun and Joseph without himself looking ridiculous.

I'll try and find it but I remember another Christian bringing up to White (on twitter nonetheless) another example of a 'supposed Muslim convert to Christianity' and all James could do was reply 'Sigh'.

This is why for White this has more to do about intra-Christian rivalry Calvinism-Arminian divide than it has to do with Caner and the truth this will be seen readily by people who see White for his inconsistencies.

Yahya Snow said...

@Peter

I appreciate your mature and balanced take on it. For what it is worth you seem to respond to critique better than your opposite number in Arizona.

Fair play to you.

I have not noticed a response by White or TF. Perhaps they saw it in good nature.

Yes, you are absolutely correct, the last two comments are not from you but from a certain AM Mallet. I have rectified the problem. It can be a little difficult to discern the author of each comment.

There was no intent behind it. Apologies to you. All fixed now.

Thanks

I bid you good night.

May Allah guide us all. Ameen

Yahya Snow said...

@Mohammad Khan

Thanks


@ TGV19

You said:

I'll try and find it but I remember another Christian bringing up to White (on twitter nonetheless) another example of a 'supposed Muslim convert to Christianity' and all James could do was reply 'Sigh'.

This is why for White this has more to do about intra-Christian rivalry Calvinism-Arminian divide than it has to do with Caner and the truth this will be seen readily by people who see White for his inconsistencies

If you can show his apathetic response then you have a smoking gun...

I wonder what TF makes of all this.

Peace

Take Care

May Allah guide us all. ameen

1moremuslim said...

I completely agree with TGV, if James White was acting on moral standards, defending the pulpit like he is saying, he would rebuke also Walid Shoebat, Kamal Saleem and other fake Ex-Muslims who are in the same category of Ergun Caner.

Anonymous said...

Greetings Yahya--

On my reading, Shamoun is guilty, at best, of past instances of obvious vulgarity, and at worst, of some possible instances of chicanery.

I'd prefer to disbelieve the second possibility, but, surely, it seems, some account of the very open allegations leveled against Shamoun should be made by someone allied with him in this regard. That certainly seems reasonable.

As to the lack of charity supposedly demonstrated by James White towards Caner, I would point you to the email exchange documenting the attempt to come to an agreement between White/Ascol and Ergun/Emir regarding a never-realized debate between the two sides on the issue of what is called "Calvinism."

You can find it here: http://www.aomin.org/Caner2.pdf

I provide the link to demonstrate a simple point: the Caner brothers, despite repeated calls for an answer, utterly refused to affirm that they considered White a Christian brother. They apparently do not.

Evidence of disunity in American Christianity? Without a doubt. Evidence of an arrogant lack of charity on the Caners' part? Certainly.

But, to highlight the manifest disunity among professed believers in Christ in America, while at the same time implicitly suggesting (it seems to me) that your own faith tradition is utterly bereft of internal conflicts, dissenting viewpoints, disdain for fellow believers with differing views on a host of issues, and outright contradictions among its adherents strikes me, well, as quite disingenuous.

Note well. I'm not saying: You folks are just as bad as us, so stop nitpicking. Rather, I'm saying that we should examine ourselves and our own faith traditions before condemning others for broad-based faults we may share in common.

As for Peter Lumpkins. I don't believe he's a witting co-conspirator in Caner's lies. But, let's not mince words: Caner is a lying liar who lies and then lies about lying. That much is manifestly clear to anyone viewing the debacle objectively.

Rather, I'd surmise that Lumpkins is merely and only a useful idiot. Not just willing, but absolutely giddy, at the prospect of defending an exposed liar while getting in potshots at White.

All is not well in Lumpkin's Southern Babel Convention (SBC).

maratsafin said...

im suprised that the holy spirit did not guide one christian in to seeing through the lies of mr ergun caner. Every muslim knew this guy was lying about islam,i can even remember a few years back when muslims were criticing him on youtube. The only reason mr james white has jumped on the bandwagon is because of pride and wants to show how much more knowledgeble he is than ergun caner on everything.mr james white is a ego maniac,the problem with him is,he truly believes only a select few scholars,mainly within the reformed tradition,truly understands the doctrines of christianity. he likes to show of his knowledge of greek and hewbrew although how fluent he is in both i do not truly know he only teaches them in sub par seminaries.
Even the athiests keep away from him and his likes. the guy has just to much pride,i think because everyone he critiques has a proper doctorate apart him who has one from a seminary who's building looks like a broken down ghetto flat.

Anonymous said...

Yahya

Thanks for updating your entry. Also, I'd like to think I am open to critical evaluation of what I attempt to communicate, though like all fallible, sinful creatures, I am not immune to being overly defensive about certain things I write.

TGV,

You wrote, "The cartoon which has 'turetinfan' as the dog vomitting on the book (which most likely has Biblical notes on it) was very disturbing indeed." I could not help laughing out loud. I never thought about it much, but I guess it is "disturbing" to see a man's head on a dog's body. Perhaps I've watched far too many Stephen King flicks :^)

One interpretative note: the book did *not* have "Biblical notes" on it. Though it is perhaps impossible to make out, the words on the book are simply, "Ergun Caner" or "The Works of Ergun Caner" if I recall properly. This is important because I would *never* have had "TurrentinFan" vomiting on the Bible or biblical notes. Such an image would neither be truthful nor helpful to the point of the cartoon.

It would be untruthful because, even though I disagree wholeheartedly with so much of what "TurrentinFan" both writes and believes, I could not portray him (or her or 'it', who knows?) dishonoring Scripture with an act of vomiting on it even if it was only in a cartoon. From all I can gather, he (or she or 'it', who knows?) rightly proclaims to embrace the Bible as God's Word.

It would be unhelpful because vomiting on "biblical notes" would not assist the point of the spoof, which is, of course, despising all things Ergun Caner. However, the dog vomiting on the works of Ergun Caner does indeed portray--in my view anyways--the mindless obsession James White (along with his trusty little companion, "turrentinfan, the wonderdog") wreaks toward Ergun Caner.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, again Yahya. You certainly have been a gracious host, allowing me to comment on this issue here, something I failed to do with your friends at my site several months back.

May the true and Living God grant you wisdom, grace, and peace in the face of Jesus Christ.

With that, I am...
Peter

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

To Peter, well than I retract my reservations in light of what you said. I guess it does look ridiculous that you would portray anyone (no matter how much you disagree with them) as vomitting on the scripture(s).

So for that I offer an apology.

I did try and e-mail you and Tim Guthrie a few months back during the whole Caner fiasco on some of White's inconsistencies.

As Marafatsin said you think people in today's Christianity would be a little more discerning.

Marafatsin hit the nail on the head, White wants to be the 'go to guy' on everything that has to do with Islam and Christian relations.

Even as a Muslim I am a bit taken a back by his recent attacks on William Lane Craig, Josh McDowell and basically anything that is not his reflection in the mirror.

I understand the importance of being 'saved' from damnation and eternal hell fire but I really do think this concept of being 'elect' causes allot of pride.

I have seen it among our own people in Islam those of us who walk around claiming to be the 'saved sect' -which is a very Christian notion indeed.

But these people want live it down anyone who does not see the world through their narrow lenses.

Btw @ Peter I am a Wildcats fan! Kentuckiana is home to me.

Anonymousing said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Yahya Snow said...

@anonymousing

Your comment was removed.

If you are going to make outrageous allegations then SHOW PROOF

Otherwise don't throw allegations

In England we call it common sense

Thanks

Anonymousing said...

In England I call it a disturbing mix of far leftist liberalist appeasement and sharia dominated ideals.

Proof of your consistency in misstatements would be evident to anyone who reads over your "articles" consistently.

I will refrain from presenting any evidence or mentioning any instances wherein you altered or covered your misstatement. For now.

But Thank You Johnny Censor Sno.

Yahya Snow said...

Anonymousing..

You always fall at the final hurdle. You make this blanket claim and once pressed to provide EVIDENCE you are ultimately found wanting.

Now now, arguing against censorship is what a leftist liberal would do in the UK... pot, kettle and black

For what it is worth you are this site's biggest troll

:)

Feel free to email to discuss the underlying reasons behind your sheer opposition. If you are upset because the site does a number on fundamentalist Christians who are deceiving people about Islam etc then you need to ask yourself why you are so opposed to the truth.

Peace

Till next time.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord....

acommonword.net is up brother Yahya insh'Allah we are getting it together.

Keep up the excellent work to you 1moreMuslim, marafatsin, ali, jibreek and all you brothers and sisters!

Islam Stand Up!

Anonymous ing said...

Yahya why in the world would i keep evidence of your mistake?

the only evidence i have on you so far is the screen capture of you vehemently altering and censoring comments. although i was personal witness to a few secret alterations and misstatement corrections, i did not record those instances. i will be on the lookout with my screen capture program ready. thanks yahya, never can take a chance on this blog can we?

Anonymousing said...

yahya, where is my comment from yesterday?

is it just lag or did you censor me again?