Tuesday, 30 November 2010

ABN Sat Using Dead Iraqi Christians to Bash Islam

Let's dissect this bout of Christian fundamentalism on ABN's "Jesus or Muhammad" show. For those who are unaware, ABN is an internet/satellite TV show which works hard in demonizing Islam and Muslims. It comes complete with wacky "experts" as well.

The show we will look at is entitled: Persecution of Christians in Iraq

Analysis/correction of this video is below



Sad news

Dr Bassim Gorial begins with a sad story of Iraqi Christians being displaced from their homes due to persecution. Muslims have condemned this persecution. Iraqi Muslims do not support these horrendous acts and Muslims in general do not support such vile actions, see here:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/11/muslims-condemn-murder-of-iraqi.html

Islamophobia and Fundamentalist Christian Blood Wading

The baton is passed over to David Wood and it does not take long for him to run into his spiel of claiming Islam is responsible. This is a load of nonsense which our David Wood has been peddling for a good while now. Sadly our David just traduces the memory of those killed by using their blood as fuel to work his agenda of demonization assiduously. Mr Wood stop Wading in the blood of Christians to further your “career”…

Stop with the utter nonsense

Muslims and Non-Muslims should know the killing of Iraqi Christians is NOT Islamic. However, these fundamentalist Christians try to convince us it is (what’s knew?). For those who are interested in the truth the Prophet said:

“Verily whoever oppressed a Zemmey (a non-muslim under Muslim rule), took from his rights, or took from him unjustly, then I am his opponent on judgment day…” [ibn Hajar al Aslam, Muwafaqat al Khabar, Number 184/2]

In the same narration “verily whoever killed a Zemmey of Allah and His messenger then Paradise will be forbidden for him…”

I think that is sufficient to pour cold water on the show’s attempts at framing Islam for the atrocities in Iraq. Perhaps the show would like to show a little more respect to the dead rather than insensitively utilising them as pawns to bash Muslims and Islam with. Just a suggestion…

David Wood plus sex and more sex…

Yes, he was banging on about sex again. The sex hoaxer extraordinaire started talking about “sex with a nine year old” and made claims of “raping slave girls”. His usual nonsensical, oft-refuted rhetoric! This guy is like a broken record. However, let’s indulge his appetite for sex talk by reminding him of his demented sex hoax which he has STILL not recanted:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/11/pornographic-lies-on-abn-by-david-wood.html

NOTE: This blog has repeatedly addressed his attacks against Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (use the search facility) but we shall address the slave girl issue by the end of the week, God willing. Just waiting on a book.

More sex, Dave?

And if he wants to talk further sex he can always open up the Bible and reference the sexual immoralities which are levelled (wrongly in my view) at David and Lot. Or if he wants to indulge himself further then he could always open up Ezekiel 23 and read about the adulterous sisters. What’s the matter? Worried the donations will dry up?

William Montgommery Watt [paraphrased] did teach whomever attacks Islam with sexually charged critique says more about himself than Islam. David, care to explain…

Mary Jo Sharp

Mary Jo Sharp mentions an Assyrian Christian leader who taught the horrendous violence in Iraq has nothing to do with religion. Yes, the Christian leader is talking sense. Islam is NOT responsible for the killing of Christians in Iraq:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/11/muslims-condemn-murder-of-iraqi.html

Mary Jo was asking for the source of the violence. The answer is quite simple; politics and misguidance. It has nothing to do with religion. What was the source of Hitler’s brutality? Misguidance. Was the source of George Bush’s violence the Bible? Of course not. Christians, why the double standards?

In true Dr Naik style: I hope that answered the question..

Pastor Vance is bereft of Quranic knowledge

Pastor Vance does a bout of fear mongering, whilst asking for cash, by explicitly claiming the reason behind the violence is “ORTHODOX ISLAM”. Crikey, such ignorance!

He also cites S3:151 despite claiming it to be 3:15. An understandable mistake but then he goes onto to read the translation and intimates an ignorant exegesis of the Verse. Why is the bloke referring to such a Verse, was he at Uhud? It was about the POLYTHEISTS after the battle of Uhud. See Tafsir Jalalayn:

“after departing from Uhud they resolved to return in order to exterminate the Muslims, but they were terrified and did not return”

For those who are interested, here is the Pikthal translation of the Verse:

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.

Ibn Abbas’ Tafsir also indicates the Verse is referring to the “unbelievers of Mecca”.

Pastor Vance, please do some research before making pronouncements. If you continue down this line you will fast become as ill-reputed as the likes of Mr Wood.

David Wood sensationally selling himself

This man claims the channel will tell the “truth” about Islam and subsequently nobody will convert to Islam. Well, I’m still a Muslim and I have heard all of the contents of Wood’s bag of tricks, gags and heckles [kudos TGV].

Most of his charade is inconsistent (i.e. it condemns the Bible) and the rest is incorrect. He talks about “horrible” things Muhammad (p) did but forgets as a Christian violent acts do NOT negate Prophethood; Moses’ orders in Numbers 31 (17-20) testifies to this fact as well as David’s conquering of Jerusalem and defeat of the Philistines (see 2 Samuel 5). Even the much loved Abraham was involved in conflict (Genesis 14). Is Wood going to traduce them? Hypocrisy?

He claims he wants to give people answers. Crikey an arch-deceiver is presenting himself as some sort of guru. The man is an ignoramus and has a track record of blunder and deceit. When are these “Christian” missionaries going to develop some shame? Dave, EVERYBODY knows you make stuff up!

Theologically, disbelievers are BAD folk according to CHRISTIANS and Muslims (respectively)

The inconsistency is in full force here. These Christian fundamentalists believe Muslims are going to go to Hell. St Augustine believed unbaptized babies would go to Hell yet these Christians were making a big deal about a Quranic Verse (S98:6). The shear hypocrisy is staggering.

إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْ أَهْلِ ٱلْكِتَابِ وَٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَآ أَوْلَـٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ ٱلْبَرِيَّةِ }

Truly the disbelievers from among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters shall be in the fire of Hell, to abide therein (khālidīna: an implied circumstantial qualifier, in other words, it will be decreed for them by God, exalted be He, to abide therein) — those are the worst of creatures [from Tafsir Jalalayn].

The Verse (S98:6) refers to the disbelievers who are going to be in the fire (those who die upon disbelief). Obviously those who are to abide in the fire for eternity are going to be the worst of creation. For a religious person this Verse should be of NO concern as Christians believe the SAME about non-Christians.

They can spout “Jesus loves you” until they are blue in the face but at the end of the day we KNOW what Christian fundamentalists believe to be the final outcome of those who reject their trinity. Why the hypocrisy? Why did the Christians on this show throw their "Christianity" under the bus?

Terrorists and Islamophobic rhetoric over Surah 9:29

One of the best people to speak to regarding the terrorists and their misuse of the Quran in "justifying" their disgraceful actions is Sheik Abdal Hakim Murad. He considers the terrorists as individuals who are unlearned in Islamic sciences. In fact we also KNOW sheikh Bin-Baz, roughly 30 years ago, presented a fatwa (religious edict) AGAINST terrorism (ref Sheikh Walid Basyouni). Enough said.

I guess ABN shuns real scholarship in favour of people with track records of deception and blunder. If you want an expert to educate you on Surah 9 and Islam’s opposition to terrorism see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28uduv36OUE

Talking more about Surah 9:29

Let’s inject some more sense into proceedings. We have a short discussion on this Verse by Imam Shabir Ally. See here:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=248234931266550822&postID=1171107522631567371

Mary Jo Sharp on taking unbelievers as friends (5:51)

Muslims are taught to treat Non-Muslims with good etiquette. The Prophet even visited an ill NON-MUSLIM lady who used to throw rubbish on him as he walked passed her house. This is our example, thus we are to treat non-Muslims in a kind manner. This issue of not taking Non-Muslims as friends has been explained here by Mufti Muzammil Siddiqi:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar&cid=1119503543362

Callers

Myopic Arab Christian Zionist

Yep, an Arab Christian called in under a name which sounded like “Israel”. Hmm, I wonder if the fellow will be as accommodating if the real Israel began dropping bombs on his relatives in the Arab country which he hails from. Or does this bloke think the Israeli bombs will be “smart bombs” in only decimating Muslim bodies? I guess hatred leads to stupidity!

Jesus would not support Israel but our Arab Christian zionist believes he knows better. The folly of the “Christian” Islamophobe!

Manu: “Don’t stigmatize Muslims”

This caller interjects with some sense and warns against stigmatizing Muslims as it results in conflict. Wood butts in and begins to trample upon the sensitivities in Egypt and Pakistan in order to promote his agenda. I guess he would be jobless if paranoia and hate-mongering was done away with. He also claims Muslims are taught to “kill” and “subjugate” non-Muslims. Talk about spin!

Dr Bassim, wrongly, calls the perpetrators of the crimes against the Iraqi Christians “true Muslims”. Dr Bassim, be fair! These criminals have ALREADY been denounced by MUSLIMS, see here:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/11/muslims-condemn-murder-of-iraqi.html

Manu adds an air of sensibility and balance to the show. Well done Manu!

Cursing 5 times a day?

A caller claimed Muslims curse Jews and Christians FIVE times a day through Surah al Fatiha. What nonsense! We pray 5 times a day and recite Surah al Fatiha (first chapter in Quran). This Surah has NO curse within it – check for yourself.

Satanic rhetoric

A caller claims Muhammad (p) was “Satan”. Balderdash! The Prophet taught AGAINST Satan. The Quran (2:168) teaches Satan to be an OPEN ENEMY of mankind:

O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and good on the earth, and follow not the footsteps of Shaitan (Satan). Verily, he is to you an open enemy. [Muhsin Khan Translation, 2:168]

Another caller believes Satan has put a “veil” over Muslims – the usual Christian fundamentalist spiel!

Allow me to throw a conundrum at these two callers; if Islam is so “satanic” why has it saved millions from the harms of alcohol whilst Christianity has NOT? Care to explain…

Ron the uninformed

He begins his call with “you will know them by their fruits”. Indeed. He then goes on to accuse Muhammad (p) of raping, adultery and theft! Wow Ron, just wow! Ever heard of doing a spot of research, Ron?

Muhammad never committed adultery, he never raped anybody either. He never stole anything either – war booty is not theft.

Talking about adultery perhaps our “Christian” friend would like to open his Bible and read its claims upon David. Perhaps the story of Lot’s alleged “incest” was what this fellow was referencing (note bene; I don’t believe these stories for one second but they are in the Bible). As for his theft spiel; what about the men of Moses killing and taking the young virgins for themselves (according to the Bible)?

Inconsistency is a sign of a failed argument. Ron, what was that about “knowing them by their fruits”?

Ilyas foaming at the mouth

This caller begins to work himself up into a crazed frenzy of nonsense and incoherency. Bassim Gorial soon gets rid of him.

A regular bigot: “FatMan”

Yes, this chap named himself “Fatman” for the call. Wow, just wow! This man (Fatman) has a history of abuse, ignorance and Islamophobia. I always wondered what this chap does when not abusing Islam and Muslims on internet comment boards. I guess I just found out. ABNSat is attracting clientele complete with Halloween outfits!

Oh, this was the comedy highlight of the show as our “Fatman” was misnamed “Fatima” by Bassim Gorial. I told “Fatman” his was a silly moniker. Vindication…

Conclusion

This show brought nothing new to the table; the same bag of tricks, gags and heckles [kudos TGV]. It was focussed on hate and fear-mongering against Muslims and misapplying Quranic Verses to fit their agendas of demonization. They seem bent on trying to portray the terrorists as true Muslims. Such folly!

The new man (Pastor Vance) seems to be lacking in sound knowledge too. I guess he will fit right in.

It was also interesting to see Dr Bassim Gorial referring to David Wood as though he was an authority. Crikey, talk about the blind (and deceitful) leading the blind!The overall themes were Muslims are anti-Christian, devilish, devious and (potential) terrorists.

To quote their regular (Mr Usama Dakdok): “if you are a Muslim you are a demon”.

Let’s cut through the hate

Would you like to learn about Islam for yourself rather than relying on a bunch of zealous “Christian” fundamentalists to teach you Islam is “terrorism” and “from the devil”? Would you like a key to spirituality? If yes then please see here:
http://www.ediscoverislam.com/

FEEDBACK: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

25 comments:

Ibn said...

Yahya: This man claims the channel will tell the “truth” about Islam and subsequently nobody will convert to Islam.

Lol! Wasn't that exactly what Abu Lahab was doing? He used to go around telling people to avoid Muhammad(saw) and call him all sorts of names. Did that stop the spread of Islam?

If these Islamophobic Christian bigots had spent more time doing productive things instead of always getting caught in gay sex scandals or swindling money or espousing lies about Islam, the world would have been a better place.

Anonymous said...

Two good lectures by Abdul Hakim Murad that I believe are more than relevent to this discussion.

Christians - if you can sit through hours of ABN then perhaps, for the sake of balance, you would consider listening to this learned scholar:

Islam and Violence Part 1/9

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtIaQt_26s0

(Christians - take note of the FBI stats in part 1...care to comment?)

Dr. Timothy Winter - Extreme Evangelical Christians 1/4

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW6xlMjBjOY

Anonymous said...

(Christians - take note of the FBI stats in part 1...care to comment?)

"The threat of terrorism is expected to continue from both international and domestic sources. Internationally, at least two operational trends are evident in the militant Islamic jihad movement. First is a preference for high-casualty, high-profile attacks directed against lower-risk, unofficial, so-called “soft” targets, as traditional military and diplomatic targets become increasingly hardened. - Taken from the fbi terrorist statistic website.

I think that is a far cry from the Earth liberation front or the Animal liberation front setting things on fire, spraypainting building, causing vandalism, or spiking trees.

Go to the FBI website and notice the nature of those other attacks and compare them to the Islamic attacks, and also notice what they "classify" as a terrorist attack (i didint know bank robbery was a terrorist attack).

here is the website: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05

Ibn said...

Yawn. Already covered

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/

Ibn said...

Also

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

Anonymous said...

Indeed I would encourage anyone interested to go take a look:

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05#terror_05if

And then scroll down towards the bottom of the page to:

Chronological Summary of Terrorist Incidents in the United States 1980-2005

Makes for interesting reading I think. Does proper scrutiny of this info actually marry with what this anonymous (I'm assuming Christian) commentator has just said?

Apparently, as insinuated by his post, everyone else except the Muslims are merely vandalising public property and spray-painting slogans on the sides of buildings.

Go check it out and decide for yourself

minoria said...

I have to state that there is a great difference between Moses killing his enemies and Muhammad.
In the case of Moses the people in NUMBERS who went to war against him knew as a fact(according to the Bible)about miracles n Egypt,water departing,etc.In the case of Muhammad his enemies,pagans and Jews,had not seen such things.So the enemies of Moses were guilty.This is the whole story:

IDOLATRY BY THE JEWS WITH WOMEN

NUMB 25:1-3:

"While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel yoked themselves to the BAAL OF PEOR. And the LORD’s anger burned against them."

THEY ARE PUNISHED:24,000 die by the plague:

NUMB 25:5:
"So Moses said to Israel’s judges, “Each of you must put to death those of your people who have yoked themselves to the BAAL OF PEOR"

NUMB 25:8-9:"Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000."

THEN:

NUMB 25:17-18:

“Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them. 18 They treated you as enemies when they DECEIVED YOU IN THE PEOR INCIDENT involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of that incident.”
THE BATTLE IS WON AND PNISHMENT DONE:

Already all the men were killed in the battle in NUMB 31:7.

NUMB 31:15-17:
“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the PEOR INCIDENT, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

KILL EVERY WOMAN WHO HAS SLEPT WITH A MAN
In the context it means those women who were guilty of the idolatry incident.We know because there is a list of the people and things that remained and we have:

NUMB 31:35:
"and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man"
AND ALSO 16,000 extra people(by the context it was women who were not virgins but had not participated in the PEOR INCIDENT):
NUMB 31:40:
"16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32."
NUMB 31:46-47:
"and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle."

ABOUT THE BOYS KILLED
according to Christian theology God created life and can take it away(by disease,accident,natural disaster,or in some few cases,through a human agent).We know:

1.Those children went to heaven.
2.The mothers of those children,knowing the power of Yahweh,would have known and been told their children were in a better place.

RAPE OF THE VIRGINS?
It is often stated but the fact is that RAPE was PROHIBITED in MOSAIC LAW,so was sex before marriage.God would not order something that would contradict himself.

HOW DID MOSES KNOW WHAT WOMEN WERE GUILTY OR NOT?

It was humanly impossible.The text does not say but the logical conclusion is there was help from God.

Anonymous said...

@minoria

It's incredible what Christians will try to justify in order to defend their scripture but yet they find the episodes of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) defending himself and the Muslims community against a hostile enemy that, effectively, wanted to ethnically cleanse them from the face of the earth morally reprehensible.

Unbelievable!!!

Ibn said...

minoria: I have to state that there is a great difference between Moses killing his enemies and Muhammad.
In the case of Moses the people in NUMBERS who went to war against him knew as a fact(according to the Bible)about miracles n Egypt,water departing,etc.In the case of Muhammad his enemies,pagans and Jews,had not seen such things.So the enemies of Moses were guilty.This is the whole story:

You do realize that you have justified the killing of non-believers, don't you? So much for "Thou shall not Kill".

minoria said...

To Ibn:
The Hebrew word means "You will not murder" not you will not kill.Murder is to kill without reason,a crime.In the OT there are passages that state that Yahweh,after he has made a decision to punish somebody(like in the case of the enemies of Moses,and of God for that matter)would change his decision if there was repentance.If the people who fought Moses had decided to make peace with Yahweh (and they knew he had power)and Moses then the whole thing would hae been avoided.

For example:

"Have I ANY PLEASURE in the DEATH OF THE WICKED, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that HE SHOULD AWAY FROM HIS WAY AND LIVE?" Ezekiel 18:20-23

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ANYONE, declares the Lord GOD; SO TURN AND LIVE.".

Ezekiel 18:30-32

"I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED, but that THE WICKED TURN FROM HIS WAY AND LIVE; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:7-11

Anonymous said...

@Yahya

About the whole cursing thing , it actually shows christian hypocrisy to the best ! and how lame most of their arguments are.

This is sura 1:7

"the path of those whom Thou hast favored. Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. "

in some tafsirs , it is mentioned that the path that angers God is Judaism (the jews) , and those who went astray are the Christians , this is all based on a hadith.

from this point islamophobes make the ridiculous claim that Muslims are being brainwashed by Sura 1 5 times a day , tought cursing and tought hate....etc , believe me yahya I've seen some very absurd arguments being made from this verse.

The answer is simple , first of all what is Sura 1 ? it's basically a humble sura used in prayer we Muslims use to reach out to God (and given to us by God through the Quran) , so it's from our point of view as God wants it to be.

2nd , what is that verse talking about ? The Muslim when reciting Sura 1 is asking God to keep him on the straight path , meaning the correct theology , from our point of view Judaism and Christianity and both false , I dont see any curse or hate teaching here.

So what is wrong with asking God not to let me follow the path of Christianity or Judaism (since from my point of view they are false) ? I dont see anything wrong with that , only islamophobes can .

This is how I usually answer this stupid objection , yahya if you have another answer I would love to hear it for my education.

Note : In other tafsirs , there are other explanations to whom is mentioned in Sura 1:7

Anonymous said...

minoria: Murder is to kill without reason,a crime.

If murder is to kill without a reason, then you would not consider honor killing as murder since it involves killing to preserve honor?

maratsafin said...

hahahahaha minoria is going round in circles. they just dont know how to justify the brutality in the OT and revelation so they just make it up as they go along. i used to love it when minoria (aka robert and muslim hater belives we are worse than athiest according to one thread over at AM)used to comeover at pauls blog and try to debate, but his method is preaching and reinterpreting the bible but debating he never did. . i mean when i read his explanation forthe killings by moses i really did lolololol because the bible like most christians claims dosent back it up. seriously minoria this is why christianity is declining so many closet liberals like you who hate what the old testament God does but cannot really say it so you come up with the most absurd justifications.and your wishy washy usage of the golden rule ( a rule that is in every religion) is the very definition of a liberal. this is why you have gay marriages,abortion,prostitution every immorality in the christian west is because christianity is a wishy washy religion that contradicts itself on every page.also minoria you say the boys went to heaven!!! what a liar you are,augustine of hippo probably the greatest theologian in christianity respected by both protestants ,catholics,eastern orthodox,copts etc stated that unbaptised babies go to hell.this view is still held by many protestants,thomas aquinas stated he hoped they go to a neutral place meaning he wasnt sure. so how on earth without reference can you say thoseboys are in heaven when they were so brutally killed when the God of Augustine,calvin,hobb et al see's no problem damning babies to eternity of hell??? you my friend are a complete waste of time,i really dont know why i respond to you.

Yahya Snow said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yahya Snow said...

@anonymous (the one whom addressed me)

Yes, I have a similar understanding - thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.

To be fair they too did mention the last verse being in reference to the Jews and Christians. So the ghairil maqdoobi alaihim is concerning the Jews whilst the waladdaalleen is regarding the christians.

But as you mention that is no curse either.

The first anonymous sent over a link to Shk Abdul Hakim's lecture. Last night I listened to it whilst failing to combine all 4 parts into one. God willing I will try that again at and reupload the lecture in one piece.

Sorry, I digress...in his lecture he mentions the fundamentalist Christians believing we (the Muslims) are going to be smitten by Jesus at the end times.

Now, they have this theology BUT object to us believing they are astray and our prayer to God to save us from the misguidance our christian brothers are in.

What's wrong with that...absolutely nothing - as you say.

I wonder if anybody was befooled by their "lame" argumentation...

The Christians need to understand their version of monotheism is not pure monotheism. They seem to be playing games here in presenting a loophole type of argument to keep their trinity. Despite all their protestations the Jews would claim their trinity to be incompatible with the Shemar and Muslims would denounce it as shirk.

They have added a prophet and an angel to God and claimed all three to be one. Sneaky BUT NOT agreeable with GOD!!!

Christians...please think

minoria said...

It was stated by anonymous:

"If murder is to kill without a reason, then you would not consider honor killing as murder since it involves killing to preserve honor"

So preserving honor is more important than a human life?Of course not.

To Maratsafin:

You say I am going in circles.It means I began at A then went to B and ended up in A.That is a CIRCULAR ARGUMENT.

When I commented of Paul's blog I gave the details why the OT says the Messiah would be Yahweh in the flesh.The reasons.I knew later on there would be "the Christians copied from the pagans,or Jesus as God was invented,a legend,he never claimed it,etc"
They were never argued against by Paul,they can't be.That was why there was no debate.
To preach is to say:"X is true".
To debate is to say"X is true for reasons A,B,C."

minoria said...

Hello Marat:

You say I try to justify that Moses killed many.So then for you it was wrong,ok,no problem.The text says clearly those killed(and 24,000 were Jews):

1.Offended God(no reinterpretation here,the text is clear)
2.They knew for a certainty about authentic miracles that Yahweh was real(no reinterpretation here)
2.Other passages in the OT(I quoted some of them)say God wants the WICKED to repent.(no reinterpretation here,the text is clear)
4.So for you God punishing the wicked who offended him and did not repent on time(accepting you condemnation)is bad.

minoria said...

Hello Marat:

You quoted Augustine who said children were sent to hell.Aquinas,who speculated on limbo for unbaptized children.

THE OT SAYS CHILDREN DONT KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG(no reinterpretation here,text is clear)

ISAIAH 7:16:

"for BEFORE the boy KNOWS ENOUGH to reject the WRONG and choose the RIGHT, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste"

PSALM 16:10-11 TAKS OF A BETTER PLACE FOR THE GOOD(NO REINTERPETATION HERE)

" because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
nor will you let your FAITHFUL ONE see decay.
11 You make known to me the path of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence,
with eternal pleasures at your right hand."

THE FAITHFUL ONE

By the context it mean a HOLY PERSON.One who has repented of his sins(or never sinned,like CHILDREN).No reinterpretation here,what we have is...ONE PASSAGE gives us more details about ANOTHER PASSAGE on a SIMILAR THEME

minoria said...

DAVID in a passage hints of going to a another place(heaven?)where his DEAD CHILD is:

2 SAMUEL 12:23

"But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I WILL GO TO HIM(note:the dead child), but he will not return to me.”

JONAH AND GOD TELLING HIM HE CARED ABOUT NON-JEWS

JONAH 3:10(about the people of Nineveh,capital of Assyrian empire)

"When God saw what they did and how they TURNED AWAY FROM THEIR EVIL WAYS, he RELENTED and did not bring on them the DESTRUCTION HE HAD THREATENED "

No reinterpretation here,the text is clear.In the case of Moses' enemies,it's true the order was to fight and kill them,but based on this passage one sees if they had made peace with Yahweh,it would have been suspended.

LATER:

JONAH 4:1-10:

"But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, “Isn’t this what I said, LORD, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”
4 But the LORD replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”

5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a leafy plant[a] and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “It would be better for me to die than to live.”

9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?”

“It is,” he said. “And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.”

10 But the LORD said, “You have been concerned about this PLANT, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I NOT HAVE CONCERN for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who CANNOT TELL THEIR RIGHT HAND FROM THEIR LEFT —and also many animals?”

minoria said...

DAVID in a passage hints of going to a another place(heaven?)where his DEAD CHILD is:

2 SAMUEL 12:23

"But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I WILL GO TO HIM(note:the dead child), but he will not return to me.”

JONAH AND GOD TELLING HIM HE CARED ABOUT NON-JEWS

JONAH 3:10(about the people of Nineveh,capital of Assyrian empire)

"When God saw what they did and how they TURNED AWAY FROM THEIR EVIL WAYS, he RELENTED and did not bring on them the DESTRUCTION HE HAD THREATENED "

No reinterpretation here,the text is clear.In the case of Moses' enemies,it's true the order was to fight and kill them,but based on this passage one sees if they had made peace with Yahweh,it would have been suspended.

LATER:

JONAH 4:1-10:

"But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, “Isn’t this what I said, LORD, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”
4 But the LORD replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”

5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a leafy plant[a] and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “It would be better for me to die than to live.”

9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?”

“It is,” he said. “And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.”

10 But the LORD said, “You have been concerned about this PLANT, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I NOT HAVE CONCERN for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who CANNOT TELL THEIR RIGHT HAND FROM THEIR LEFT —and also many animals?”

maratsafin said...

yes minoria i know declare you a christian heretic, i mean you are no catholic so dismissing aqaunis is no problem for you but to dismiss augustine and the protestants reformers,its a goodthing you over on this blog making your unbiblical assumptions, assumptions which go against the teaching of the original sin which was concieved by paul and eleborated on to much greater degree by augustine when he was trying to refute pelagius's denial of it. your quotations are the reason why the new testament and OT are not in harmony,why there is no reason for the sacrifice of jesus, why God dosent need blood for forgiveness. You without knwing have just refuted your religion, I have hopes for you still. Regarding your lame defense of Moses it dosent warrant a respoonse.

minoria said...

Hello Marat:
I don't know why you call me a heretic.Ok,why should I reject Augustine?

I quoted from the OT,for us JESUS was GOD,God giving us info.

WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT CHILDREN AND HEAVEN

Certainly AUGUSTINE read this:
MARK 10:13-15(also in MATT 19:13-14/LUKE 18:15-17)

"People were bringing LITTLE CHILDREN to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them.

14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the KINDOM OF GOD BELONGS TO SUCH AS THESE. 15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a LITTLE CHILD WILL NEVER ENTER IT.”

So yes,Jesus(God)said children go to heaven.

REVELATION

You implied it was violent.Yes,it is,but it's NOT like Moses killing his enemies in a very important sense.Revelation is DESCRIPTIVE(even in many details METAPHORICAL-SYMBOLICAL),and NOT PRESCRIPTIVE.

What do I mean by "descriptive".I mean it says "such a thing will happen,etc".It is not prescriptive since it does NOT SAY:

1."Kill the enemies of Christ."
2."Kill the freinds of the Antichrist."

minoria said...

ON CONSISTENCY

I understand the argument leveled against David by talking about Moses killing his enemies.David's argument would be inconsistent if BOTH Mohammed's and Moses'situation were the same.That is:

1.Moses did NO miracles at all,Muhammad did none.

2.Moses killed people and so did Muhammad.

3.David criticized Muhammed for killing,he doesn't do the same for Moses=inconsistency.

WHAT DOES THE KORAN SAY?

It says MOSES did MIRACLES(it even talks of Allah drowning the Pharaoh and his army).The OT says the same.

minoria said...

AN EXAMPLE OF HOW END-TIMES PASSAGES CAN BE USED TO PREDICT THINGS(deduction method)

JOEL ROSENBERG (Jewish and Christian,his latest novelis "The 12th Imam"about the appearence of the 12th Imamin Iran) wrote his first novel THE LAST JIHAD before 9/11.He used his imagination plus EZEKIEL.In the novel a plane is hijacked by terrorists in the name of Islam.The US goes to war against SADAM HUSSEIN because he was supporting them,Saddam is overthrowned and the US occupies IRAK.Again,he simply used his imagination.

EZEKIEL 38:1-9
It talks of an invasion of Israel by several nations,including Persia.ROSENBERG noticed EGYPT (a Muslim nation)was NOT mentioned.It didn't surprise him too much,Egypt had made peace with Israel in 1979.But to his amazament IRAK was NOT included among the invaders of ISRAEL(at the time SADAM was in power.)
He asked himself WHY was IRAk(or BABYLON as it was called in the Bible) was NOT among the invaders.

Ok,Sadam had been OVERTHROWN or died of natural causes and had been replaced,but surely if he was replaced by ANOTHER MUSLIM ruler then the new ruler would be forced by the people or would do it willingly,to participate in attacking Israel.

UNLESS there was a really good reason like maybe IRAK had been INVADED and OCCUPIED by the US.Why would the US invade Irak at all?Rosenberg thought because of oil?Yes,but that would not convince the American people too much.But if a BIG TERRORIST ATTACK that killed MANY that the US government linked to being helped by Sadam happened then the public would support the war.As I said he used his imagination plus Ezekiel and it coincided.If that's not enough EZEKIEL 38 says PERSIA is going to be involved in attacking Israel,and in 2005 AHMADINEJAD got into power.

minoria said...

To finish with the theme,so that Muslims won't think David Wood was being inconsistent,I said he(and I)have the opinion that Muhammad did not do miracles.In my case it is because it literally appears like 9X in the Koran.I wrote an article quoting every single case:

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/10/a-plusieurs-reprises-le-coran-dit-que-mahomet-etait-incapable-de-faire-un-miracle/

LET US SAY HE DID DO MIRACLES

David's case would STILL BE consistent.I will explain.A Muslim in avraidire.com told Muhammad did do miracles:
1.The Koran.
2.Splitting the Moon(in the Koran).
(based on authentic hadiths)

No problem so Moses did miracles and so did Muhammad.Moses killed,Muhammed also.David condemns Muhammad but not Moses=INCONSISTENCY

THE CHRISTIAN SITUATION

In Judaism and Protestantism the Devil can also do miracles.Muhammad instituted,in the name of God,a religious ceremony where a person kisses a black stone.Again,one accepts Muhammad did real miracles(like Moses)but that part of the ceremony is for us non-Biblical.So ok,Muhammad did miracles but God would not have told him to do something non-Biblical.
So we have 2 miracle-workers(Moses and Muham.)but David would still be consistent in complaining about Muhammed and killing enemies since for him the miracles were not from God.

RUMORS OF THE 12TH IMAM

There are these rumors that Ahmadinejad is secretly talking with the 12th imam.They could be:

1.Invented by the enemies of Ahmadinejad to ridicule him.(Machiavelli strategy)
2.Invented by Ahmadinejad and his people to give him prestige(Machiavelli strategy)
3.A convincing CHARLATAN can be tricking Ahmadinejad(but no real miracles)
4.A real miracle-worker has appeared and claims to be the 12th imam.

JOEL ROSENBERG says such a scenario might happen,not that it will,it might.So in his novel there is a real miracle-worker who says he is the 12th imam,and convinces the Iranian leaders.In the OT and NT there are passages that pseudo prophets can and WILL DO miracles.I hope this answers any questions as to why I think David was not using deception.