Saturday, 12 March 2011
Hamza Yusuf and Abdal Hakim Murad Meet a Christian in England, Woking Mosque
This seems like an excellent interfaith discussion. We can all learn from this type of approach our scholars are taking.
Interesting points
The Christian, Reverend Richard Cook, is trying to overcome fear and ignorance related to Islam and Muslims by teaching people about Islam. A good way to combat Islamophobia.
Abdal Hakim Murad (aka Dr Timothy Winter): In the 17th century there were 3 cases of Muslims being killed for not converting to Christianity in Britain
Hamza Yusuf never felt he was giving up Jesus when he converted to Islam (from Orthodox Christianity) - he saw it as an enhancement and an adoption of a unitarian understanding of Christianity.
Abdal Hakim Murad: There are no two religons which are more interlocking than Christianity and Islam
Hamza Yusuf highlights the tolerance the Prophet (p) and Umar (ra) extended towards Christians.
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69 comments:
But Hamza Yusuf did give up something about Jesus - He gave up belief in the Deity of Christ, the eternal Sonship of Christ (that He was the Word of God from all eternity; and became flesh in time and space - John 1:1-5; 1:14; 1:18; Luke 1:34-35; Phil. 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-20; Hebrews 1:3, 1:6; 1:8). He also had to surrender his faith in the crucifixion (because of Qur'an Surah 4:157) and resurrection, which just shows that he never really believed in Christ or Christianity really in his heart before he became a Muslim. Christianity has always been Monotheistic, but it has never been Unitarian Monotheism; rather it always was Trinitarian Monotheism.
To Ken;
Christianity has always been Monotheistic, but it has never been Unitarian Monotheism; rather it always was Trinitarian Monotheism.
I Recommand you to study the History of Christianity, and the branches that survived for a long time in Arabia. The first Christian who spoke about the Trinity is Tertullian, the Irony is that he is not a Trinitarian, he doesn't believe in Eternal Sonship. That doesn't make sense for him. SON means to have origin , Divine means to have no Origin. A Divine Son is like a Married Bachelor.
To 1moreMuslim:
Yes, I have studied the history of Christianity.
Tertullian is the first one to use the Latin word Trinitas; but he is not the first one to write about the Trinity, because the Scriptures came before that time, and the Scriptures communicate the concept. (for example Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14) Tertullian also used the word Unitas (oneness) with the word Trinitas (three-ness). And he coined the word because the bible already spoke of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. the eternal Sonship is communicated by the fact that the Son is also the Word from all eternity past. کلمه الله
John 1:1-5; John 1:14
The branches in Arabia?
Gnostics - heretics who did not believe Jesus had a real body.
This is hardly "Islamic" at all; as the Muslims believed in only the humanity of Jesus and that He certainly had a body and was only a human and only a prophet.
Gnostics taught Jesus was like a ghost or phantom; not real; only spiritual; a "spirit".
Yet, the Qur'an quotes from Gnostic sources. (Jesus speaking from the cradle and blowing into a clay bird and it flies away.)
Collyridians (worshiped Mary and offered cakes to her) - Part of the mis-understanding of the Trinity, probably.
But also seeing the orthodox and nominal Christians in Syria and palestine and N. Arabia and statues and prayers to Mary. That was bad and Protestants understand that the early church "left its first love" (Revelation 2:4-5) in drifting from pure worship and the study of Scripture, drifting from justification by faith alone ( Romans 3:28, Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; Romans 4:1-8; 4:16; 5:1-11)
Others?
Arians ? evidence they were in Arabia? They were heretics. they did not believe in John 1:1 that the word from un-created from all eternity past.
Ebionites ? - evidence they were in Arabia ?
They were heretics also.
Not in Arabia, but in Egypt, Syria, Armenia:
Mono-physites (or Mia-physites) - believed that the human nature of Jesus was swallowed up by the Divine nature. (coptic Church, Armenian church, Jacobite-Syrian church).
They believed in the Trinity - they just struggled to understand the 2 natures of Christ. (not the same thing)
They De-emphasizes the humanity of Jesus. Islam does the opposite - emphasizes the human nature of Jesus only - this could hardly be a branch of Christianity that influenced Muhammad and his visions.
In Persia (Mesopotamia - modern day Iraq) - Nestorians
Emphasized that Jesus was 2 persons with 2 natures, rather than one person with 2 natures. Nestorius himself objected to "the Mother of God" title for Mary. (that was a good thing) They still believed in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; they just struggled on how to understand the 2 natures of Jesus.
To Ken:
You should make the difference between what Scripture says, and what are the interpretation of it. If the Trinity was mentioned in the Bible, Michael Servitus would not deny it and be burned at the stake. John 1:1-5 doesn't say anything about Jesus being Eternal, Jesus is not even mentioned. It says the Word was there in the Beginning, eternity has no beginning.
If the Trinity was mentioned in the Bible, Christians would not need Councils to proclaim it.
Tertullian, Origen and many Others don't believe in an Eternal Son of God.
1mm said: "You should make the difference between what Scripture says, and what are the interpretation of it."
Of course Scripture and its interpretation can be distinguished, just as we can distinguish between what the Qur'an says and its interpretation. So if this was intended as a criticism, it must be understood that this is a reversible one. The real issue is whether the interpretation is consistent with and follows from what the Bible or the Qur'an says in a given text.
1mm said: "If the Trinity was mentioned in the Bible, Michael Servitus would not deny it and be burned at the stake."
Just like we saw above, this argument cuts both ways. To illustrate: If Allah is absolutely one, not made of parts, and not to be understood as an anthropomorphic being according to the Qur'an, then Salafis would not deny any of this. Or, if Muhammad was the final prophet according to the Qur'an, then Ahmadiyya's would not argue for the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam...
1mm said: "John 1:1-5 doesn't say anything about Jesus being Eternal, Jesus is not even mentioned. It says the Word was there in the Beginning, eternity has no beginning."
The grammar and syntax of John 1:1, as well as the context, make it clear that the Word is eternal and that the Word is Jesus. It takes a lot of effort to miss this, and if this kind of effort explains why you make a radical separation (rather than distinction) between what a text says and its interpretation, then I would agree with you that we need to separate in a major way what THE BIBLE says from YOUR interpretation of it.
According to John 1:1, whereas everything had a beginning, the Word already was. In fact, the Word is the source of everything. More than that, the Word was not only there already when the world came into existence, the Word was WITH God and the Word by nature was God. I would encourage you to read the passage again and, even if you don't agree with it, at least try to be honest with the text. I am sure you would appreciate at least as much from non-Muslims who read the Qur'an.
As for identifying the Word as Jesus, this is plain from numerous statements in the context, including but not limited to, the fact that John served as a forerunner for the Word, the Word being identified as having become flesh and tabernacling among us, and the Word explicitly being referred to as "monogenes" and "uios", i.e. one and only Son.
1mm said: "If the Trinity was mentioned in the Bible, Christians would not need Councils to proclaim it."
I've already answered this in principle above.
1mm said: "Tertullian, Origen and many Others don't believe in an Eternal Son of God."
There is no question that you can find heretics in church history; unfortunately, you didn't pick very good examples for people who professed to be Christians while denying the doctrine of Eternal Sonship. Both Tertullian and Origen taught the doctrine. This is well known. I am not sure where you got the idea that they did not.
And just to round things out, notice that this argument is, like all the others above, easily reversible. We can easily provide examples of people who professed to be Muslims in the early centuries of Islam who yet denied things that Muslims today would argue are taught in the Qur'an and Sunnah. In fact, the Mutazillite controversy in Islam mirrors in many significant ways the Trinitarian and Christological debates of the early Christian centuries.
Muslim and Islam in the News part 1
LAHORE, Pakistan – A Christian mother of seven here who last August was kidnapped, raped, sold into marriage and threatened with death if she did not convert to Islam was freed this week.
After she refused to convert and accept the marriage, human traffickers had threatened to kill Shaheen Bibi, 40, and throw her body into the Sindh River if her father, Manna Masih, did not pay a ransom of 100,000 rupees (US$1,170) by Saturday (March 5), the released woman told Compass.
Drugged into unconsciousness, Shaheen Bibi said that when she awoke in Sadiqabad, her captors told her she had been sold and given in marriage.
“I asked them who they were,” she said. “They said that they were Muslims, to which I told them that I was a married Christian woman with seven children, so it was impossible for me to marry someone, especially a Muslim.”
Giving her a prayer rug (musalla), her captors – Ahmed Baksh, Muhammad Amin and Jaam Ijaz – tried to force her to convert to Islam and told her to recite a Muslim prayer, she said.
“I took the musalla but prayed to Jesus Christ for help,” she said. “They realized that I should be returned to my family.”
A member of St. Joseph Catholic Church in Lahore, Shaheen Bibi said she was kidnapped in August 2010 after she met a woman named Parveen on a bus on her way to work. She said Parveen learned where she worked and later showed up there in a car with two men identified as Muhammad Zulfiqar and Shah. They offered her a job at double her salary and took her to nearby Thokar Niaz Baig.
There she was given tea with some drug in it, and she began to fall unconscious as the two men raped her, she said. Shaheen Bibi was unconscious when they put her in a vehicle, and they gave her sedation injections whenever she regained her senses, she said.
When she awoke in Sadiqabad, Baksh, Amin and Ijaz informed her that she had been sold into marriage with Baksh. They showed her legal documents in which she was given a Muslim name, Sughran Bibi daughter of Siddiq Ali. After Baksh had twice raped her, she said, his mother interjected that she was a “persistent Christian” and that therefore he should stay away from her.
Muslims and Islam in the News part 2
Shaheen Bibi, separated from an abusive husband who had left her for another woman, said that after Baksh’s mother intervened, her captors stopped hurting her but kept her in chains.
Her father, Masih, asked police to take action, but they did nothing as her captors had taken her to a remote area between the cities of Rahim Yar Khan and Sadiqabad, considered a “no-go” area ruled by dangerous criminals.
Masih then sought legal assistance from the Community Development Initiative (CDI), a human rights affiliate of the European Center for Law & Justice. With the kidnappers giving Saturday (March 5) as a deadline for payment of the ransom, CDI attorneys brought the issue to the notice of high police officials in Lahore and on March 4 obtained urgent legal orders from Model Town Superintendent of Police Haidar Ashraf to recover Shaheen, according to a CDI source.
The order ultimately went to Assistant Sub-Inspector (ASI) Asghar Jutt of the Nashtar police station. Police accompanied by a CDI field officer raided the home of a contact person for the captors in Lahore, Naheed Bibi, the CDI source said, and officers arrested her in Awami Colony, Lahore.
With Naheed Bibi along, CDI Field Officer Haroon Tazeem and Masih accompanied five policemen, including ASI Jutt, on March 5 to Khan Baila, near Rahim Yar Khan – a journey of 370 miles, arriving that evening. Area police were not willing to cooperate and accompany them, telling them that Khan Baila was a “no-go area” they did not enter even during daytime, much less at night.
Muslims and Islam in the News part 3
Jutt told area police that he had orders from high officials to recover Shaheen Bibi, and that he and Tazeem would lead the raid, the CDI source said. With Nashtar police also daring them to help, five local policemen decided to go with them for the operation, he said.
At midnight on Sunday (March 6), after some encounters and raids in a jungle area where houses are miles apart, the rescue team managed to get hold of Shaheen Bibi, the CDI source said. The captors handed over Shaheen Bibi on the condition that they would not be the targets of further legal action, the CDI source said.
Sensing that their foray into the danger zone had gone on long enough, Tazeem and Jutt decided to leave but told them that those who had sold Shaheen Bibi in Lahore would be brought to justice.
Fatigued and fragile when she arrived in Lahore on Monday (March 7), Shaheen Bibi told CDN through her attorneys that she would pursue legal action against those who sold her fraudulently into slavery and humiliation.
She said that she had been chained to a tree outside a house, where she prayed continually that God would help her out of the seemingly impossible situation. After the kidnappers gave her father the March 5 deadline last week, Shaheen Bibi said, at one point she lifted her eyes in prayer, saw a cross in the sky and was comforted that God’s mighty hand would release her even though her father had no money to pay ransom.
On four previous occasions, she said, her captors had decided to kill her and had changed their mind.
Shaheen Bibi said there were about 10 other women in captivity with her, some whose hands or legs were broken because they had refused to be forcibly given in marriage. Among the women was one from Bangladesh who had abandoned hope of ever returning home as she had reached her 60s in captivity.
Masih told CDN that he had prayed that God would send help, as he had no money to pay the ransom. The day before the deadline for paying the ransom, he said, he had 100 rupees (less than US$2) in his pocket.
Source
1moreMuslim says...
"You should make the difference between what Scripture says, and what are the interpretation of it."
He then goes on to give us his bizarre interpretation of John 1:1
"John 1:1-5 doesn't say anything about Jesus being Eternal, Jesus is not even mentioned. It says the Word was there in the Beginning, eternity has no beginning."
So "In the begging, was the word and the word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
Now means "Eternity has no begging, and the word is not Jesus".
1moremuslim you should take your own advice and distinguish from what scripture says and your OWN bizarre interpretation. Actually on second thought please don't interpret the bible anymore your embarrassing your self.
1moreMuslim said...
"I Recommand you to study the History of Christianity, and the branches that survived for a long time in Arabia. The first Christian who spoke about the Trinity is Tertullian"
Sir I sugjest you study Christian History.
Let's take a look at what a few Christians wrote.
Justin Martyr
"Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third"
Chapter XIIL First Apology
Justin Also writes
" who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin
Chapter LXlll First Apology
He also says...
"but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.
He also writes
"Permit me, further, to show you from the book of Exodus how this same One, who is both Angel, and God, and Lord, and man, and who appeared in human form to Abraham and Isaac, appeared in a flame of fire from the bush, and conversed with Moses"
PolyCarp writes
"on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that
raised him from the dead." PolyCarp 12:2
Ignatius writes to the Ephisians...
“Being the followers of God, and Stirring up yourselves by the blood of God”
and...
"“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible even Jesus Christ our Lord.”
and still...
"For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the
womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.”
So there you have it 1moreMuslim, the early Christians believed in the doctrine of the trinity before the word Trinity was coined.
To Radical Moderate and the Anonymous:
Let's put our interpretation aside, and suppose that the Trinitarians were right about John 1:1.
So the word is Jesus and Jesus is God. This is the result:
In the beginning was GOD, and GOD was with God, and GOD was God.
Now ask anyone with a brain, is that monotheism or what? I don't need to add my bizarre interpretation, the text is bizarre.
To Anonymous:
Muslims don't disagree about what is essential to the faith and what is mentioned in the Quran. There is no mention of Allah being made of parts, and that doesn't matter as long as you believe allah is One and he created all things alone.
About Ahmadis, their deviation is not about interpretation of the Quran, but about DENYING the prophetic traditions. I was talking about different interpretations of the same text. Ahmadya changed the Word " Final" to "Best".
Can you show me a group of Muslims who, based on their interpretation of the Text, left the orthodox Islam?
@1moremuslim
I find it interesting that Muslims accuse Christians of corrupting our scripture. We don't have to, you Muslims do the Job yourself.
Your re wording of the text of John 1:1 is not what the text says.
IN the begging was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD IS GOD, he was with GOD from the BEGGING.
Now please deal with what the text says.
To Radical Moderate:
Now you are denying the identification of "the word" with God?
But it's a good thing to realize the problem of having a God with God in the beginning.
You have to assume your interpretation of John 1:1 until the end. I didn't corrupt anything, I replaced "the Word" with "God" , that is your claim, not mine. After all they are the same, not?
Jesus is yahweh,
The father is Yahweh,
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh,
There is only one yahweh.
If you believe in the above, don't dare talk to me about what is bizarre.
1moremuslim
you said...
Jesus is yahweh,
The father is Yahweh,
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh,
There is only one yahweh.
well you finally got it right there is only one Yahwey, he is unique one of a kind no other God like him.
Hey 1 more muslim,
you said,
Jesus is yahweh,
The father is Yahweh,
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh,
There is only one yahweh.
I say,
See you just came to an understanding of the trinity from the text alone with out using the word and with out the help of a council. Just like Christians have been doing from the beginning.
I’m glad that has been cleared up
You said,
If you believe in the above, don't dare talk to me about what is bizarre.
I say,
I’ll remind you once again that it’s your duty to believe and accept God’s message even if you find it difficult to understand.
As far as the Trinity being bizaare, Have you ever studied quantum mechanics? Schrödinger's cat, and protons that are both a points and a waves at the same time...... now that’s bazaare
peace
Peace
To the Fifth Monarchy Man,
Christians always make false analogies to the Doctrine of the Trinity. Light being particles and waves at the same time, is no way similar to saying X+X+X=X. Theories about quantum mechanics are based on the excellency of the human mind, the Trinity is the suppressing of it.
Even James White in his Book " the forgotten Trinity" seem to say clearly that we should not confuse the terms being and person, to define the Trinity. He implicitly recognizes that saying God is three beings in one being is a contradiction. That is why we should say that God is 3 Persons in ONE being. To be consistent, saying God is three Yahweh in One Yahweh is also a contradiction, and I believe so.
1moremuslim
You are so close, but then you quickly digress into suppressing the knowledge of GOD. What a shame. But either way I think you have learned what happens when you don't tinker with the text, change it's meaning or just plain out mis represent what it says.
Amazing how you came up with
"Jesus is yahweh,
The father is Yahweh,
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh,
There is only one yahweh."
all by yourself, with out butchering the text, or taking it outside of it's context. Imagine how much more you would understand of God's word if you did the same to the rest of the bible.
I encourage you to keep doing the same. Myself, Fith, the various Anons, and others are here to help you know God so you may come to a real loving relationship with God. Not a slave\master relationship but a Loving Father\son, or bridegroom\bride relationship.
There is nothing to be afraid of, because the one true living God is not at your throat, instead he wants to be in your heart.
1MoreMuslim
Just one more thing.
Notice you started out by attacking the history of Christianity, you tried to say that the doctrine of the trinity was made up by Tertulian. Ken pointed out that while it was Tertulian who coined the phrase, how ever he was not the first to write about it since the bible clearly teaches it.
I pointed out how the early Christian fathers, Justin Martyr, Ignatious, and Polycarp all wrote about the diety of Christ. Justin Martyr actually says we worship the Father and, "Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third"
You then try to say that it is our interpretation and not what the bible says.
You then go to give some bizzar interpretation of John 1:1-5. When that is pointed out to be false, you then change the words of John1:1. When that doest work you come up with the doctrine of the trinity.
WOW. Amazing.
1moremuslim
Sorry "Doctrine of the trinity" should be "description of the trinity"
Where is Yahay, he has gone dark all of a sudden. I hope the Jinn didn't get him
@anon
Thanks for the concern. Those jinn have not seen me off :)
I shall not compare myself to Jesus battling the devil in the Gospels. However, it is interesting to ponder about that account as it proves Jesus was not God. I mean, God does not need to ballte the devil in the wilderness and God is certainly not going to be tempted by devil.
Further proof the Muslims are spot on - Jesus is a Prophet of God rather rather than the "second person in the trinity".
God willing I will try to upload (and look at the comments in greater detail)something tonight/tomorrow - aside from the post on the recent Dearborn gay event - which is scheduled to appear later on in the week.
Peace
@Yahya
you said...
"aside from the post on the recent Dearborn gay event"
What are you on about?
@anon
Are you seriously indicating to me that you don't know? Or is it "Christian taqiya" - that's what you folk would say to me if I asked a q of a similar nature.
It's good thing that I'm a Muslim, I will not accuse you of "decpetion" or "playing dumb". I will leave that to your co-religionists.
I invite you to Islam.
Snowman
At the time I asked you what you were on about I honestly did not know what you were talking about. Momosexuality is not something I keep up on.
However I did look it up, and it appears there was some kind of Gay and Lesbian comedy show in Dearborn MI. From the lack of hits and information that came up in my search it looks like it was a non event.
So I assume that is what you are going to be posting on.
Hey 1moremuslim:
You say,
Christians always make false analogies to the Doctrine of the Trinity.
I say,
I was not presenting an analogy. I was only illustrating that sometimes seemingly contradictory statements are in fact true.
It’s you who seem to think that the being of God must be analogous to the human person.
You say,
Theories about quantum mechanics are based on the excellency of the human mind, the Trinity is the suppressing of it.
I say,
Not suppressing the mind just destroying lofty opinions raised against the knowledge of God and shameing those "wiseguys" who reject the message of the Prophets.
Quote:
We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
(2 Corinthians 10:5)
The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?
(Jeremiah 8:9)
End quote:
You said,
He implicitly recognizes that saying God is three beings in one being is a contradiction.
I say,
Of course it’s a contradiction and no knowledgeable Christian would describe God in that way.
Since you did not say that three persons in one being is a contradiction I assume you realize the Christian position is not.
You say,
To be consistent, saying God is three Yahweh in One Yahweh is also a contradiction, and I believe so.
I say,
I find it you interesting that you feel you must change the phrasing of your original comment in order to argue against it.
Perhaps deep down you realize there is no contradiction in the orthodox formulation.
maybe there is hope for you.
Peace
@Fith Monarch Man
you said...
"It’s you who seem to think that the being of God must be analogous to the human person."
WOW, you hit the nail on the head with that one. That is exactly what Muslims do.
It's funny Muslims accuse Christians of saying God is a Man when thats not what we believe, yet at the same time they deny the magisty of God by comparing the Triune God to a human being.
What has happened to Britain? Where are the hundreds of Muslims in Churches? Who are these men with collars?
Another Isolated Incident.
Yahya how many Isolated incidents do you need before it's no longer isolated? What is your threshold.
BBC--A 30-year-old man has appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court in connection with a suicide bombing in Sweden.
Ezedden Khalid Ahmed Al Khaledi, described as a Kuwaiti national, faces three charges under the Terrorism Act and five others under immigration laws and banking regulations.
He made no plea or declaration and was remanded into custody.
Two people were hurt in two explosions in Stockholm in December. A man with an explosive device was later found dead.
The Stockholm bomber was named as 28-year-old Iraqi-born Taimour Abdulwahab al-Abdaly.
He had settled in Luton with his wife Mona, with whom he had three young children - two girls and a boy.
He previously attended the University of Bedfordshire.
The attack was believed to be the first suicide bombing in Sweden's history.
Detectives have been investigating whether Abdaly was supported by others or acted as a lone attacker.
Mr Khaledi was arrested following a police raid on the 19th floor of a block of flats in the Whiteinch area of Glasgow on Tuesday 8 March.
A convoy, flanked by armed officers and watched from a police helicopter, escorted him to the private hearing in Glasgow Sheriff Court.
Proceeding were translated into Arabic for him.
The first charge against him alleges he provided money for Abdaly.
He is also accused of possessing money and bank cards which could have been used for terrorism, and with entering into an arrangement to provide money for terrorist purposes.
Mr Khaledi also faces a charge that he falsely claimed to be a Kuwaiti national so he could claim asylum and benefits in the UK and of fraudulently opening bank accounts.
Source
To Radical Moderate and Fifth Monarchy Man:
Amazing how you came up with
"Jesus is yahweh,
The father is Yahweh,
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh,
There is only one yahweh."
Chill out boys, I didn't came up with anything, that is your belief. Can you please assume what you believe? Which statement of the above misrepresents the Christian belief?
About John 1:1 , I didn't change anything , I just replaced the WORD with God, why should I not? Aren't they Identical? How is it that the WORD is Identical to GOD but you cannot replace it in the text?
I didn't say that God is analogous to human person.
Understand the reasoning:
If God is 3 persons, yet one person is a contradiction then it follows that God is 3 Yahweh in 1 Yahweh should be a contradiction. But of course, you need to have something called consistency, which lacks to every Trinitarian believer, since Christianity is based on a very inconsistent Gospels and message.
To the Radical Moderate:
Our concept of Servant/Master is more consistent the concept of Hell. And it's also consistent with the fact that many millions of Christians who are dying with diseases and natural disasters.
But again, you should lear consistency
To Anonymous:
This a response for all your "isolated" Cases:
Over 50 million American
Christians Support unconditionally the occupation of Muslim lands. Many other million Americans don't recognize the right of Palestinians to live in their lands. Now, you can continue to count how many Bad Muslims are there in the world.
Another Isolated Incident for Yahya Snow
KANO, Nigeria — Gunmen shot and killed a Muslim cleric highly critical of a hardline Islamist sect, in an attack outside his home in Maiduguri, northeast Nigeria, witnesses said.
The attackers, who were in a sports utility vehicle, gunned down Ibrahim Abdullahi Bolori outside his house, which is just next to a mosque, neighbours said.
"The sheikh came out of his house around 8:00 pm (1900 GMT) and sat outside. An unmarked jeep slowed down and gunmen shot him... five times before speeding off," said a neighbour Awwalu Ishaq.
Bolori had been an outspoken critic of the radical Islamist group known as Boko Haram, which in 2009 launched an uprising in Maiduguri, the provincial capital of Borno state.
The revolt was put down by a brutal military assault, but since 2010, attacks attributed to the group have left dozens dead, most of them policemen.
Another cleric who spoke against the sect was gunned down in the same city October last year at his house while giving a theology lesson to a student.
The sect, whose name means "education is a sin" has been blamed for killings targeting police officers, local community leaders, clerics and politicians in recent months.
Source
1moremuslim said:
Over 50 million American
Christians Support unconditionally the occupation of Muslim lands.
I say;
what exactly makes a "land" Muslim?
Does it recite shahadah?
peace
@1moreMuslim
Since Fifth took care of the 50 million American satement I thought I would address this kanard of yours.
"many other million Americans don't recognize the right of Palestinians to live in their lands."
Actually most Americans support a two state solution, Israel and Palestine. It is Muslims who don't recognize Israel's right to exit, want Israel wiped off the face of he map, oh and lets not forget look forward to day when the rocks and trees will call out "O Muslim there is Jew hiding behind me come and kill him"
To Radical Moderate:
Then you have to explain to me why, every year, USA and Israel abort the UN resolution of 2 state solution?
No one would recognize a neighbor country with NO BORDERS, which is on continuous expansion. You want to force people into accepting something that you won't accept for yourself. Is that Loving your neighbor as yourself?
Looks like 1moremuslim is desperately out of logical responses, and has retreated to a position of "bad Jooz"....why am I not surprised? :)
1moremuslim said...
"Then you have to explain to me why, every year, USA and Israel abort the UN resolution of 2 state solution?"
you mean like the arab states walked away in 1947 for a two state solution. After it was passed and the UN recognized Israel the Arabs invaded Israel.
:)
Said...
Looks like 1moremuslim is desperately out of logical responses, and has retreated to a position of "bad Jooz"....why am I not surprised? :)
Yup thats there fall back position blame the jews.
Daily Mail--Al-Qaeda has launched a women's magazine that mixes beauty and fashion tips with advice on suicide bombings.
Dubbed 'Jihad Cosmo', the glossy magazine's front cover features the barrel of a sub-machine gun next to a picture a woman in a veil.
There are exclusive interviews with martyrs' wives, who praise their husbands' decisions to die in suicide attacks.
The slick, 31-page Al-Shamikha magazine - meaning The Majestic Woman - has advice for singletons on 'marrying a mujahideen'.
Readers are told it is their duty to raise children to be mujahideen ready for jihad.
And the 'beauty column' instructs women to stay indoors with their faces covered to keep a 'clear complexion'.
They should 'not go out except when necessary' and wear a niqab for 'rewards by complying with the command of Allah Almighty'.
A woman called Umm Muhanad hails her husband for his bravery after his suicide bombing in Afghanistan.
And another article urges readers to give their lives for the Islamist cause.
It advises: 'From martyrdom, the believer will gain security, safety and happiness.'
More traditional content for a women's magazine includes features on the merits of honey facemasks, etiquette, first aid and why readers should avoid 'towelling too forcibly'.
A trailer for the next issue promises tips on skin care - and how to wage electronic jihad. (Read more.)
did a snowbody on this site not promise to reply to the scholar anthony rogers? this is snow joke. did the snowbody melt or is he busy or is he running?
To Radical Moderate about logical response
Question:
Why, every year, USA and Israel abort the UN resolution of 2 state solution?
Radical Moderate's logical Answer:
you mean like the arab states walked away in 1947 for a two state solution.
@Yahya Snow
I'm still waiting for you to give us a guided tour of the Gay scene in Dearborn MI.
1moremuslim
I could bring up 1967, 1974, the first and second intifada's, homicide bombings, kidnappings, rocket attacks, etc...
The only people who do not want a Palestinian state are Muslims.
1moremuslim
Its funny, you claim the US and Israel deny ever year a two state solution mandated by the UN, when from the very begging of the UN mandating a 2 state solution Muslims have denied this on themselves. In 1948 they didn't want Israel. After 1967 they wanted to go back to the borders mandated by the UN. Then after 1973 they want to go back to the borders of 1967.
The question is WHY should the Israeli's give up any land? After they fought hard to get it after ARAB armies either invaded or where about to as was the case of the 1967 war.
Radical Moderate:
Actually most Americans support a two state solution, Israel and Palestine.
The question is WHY should the Israeli's give up any land?
I think you are 2 persons in one being.
One more muslim said,
I think you are 2 persons in one being.
I say,
You say multiple persons in one being is a contradiction in terms yet you accuse someone that you are having a conversation with just that.
Does this not seem inconsistent to you?
Seriously though I have an honest question. I’ve heard that Muslims reject the Prophetic revelation that man was created in the image of God. Is this true?
peace
1moreMuslim said...
"I think you are 2 persons in one being."
Now that's just stupid, everyone knows that you can not be two persons in the same being.
So you never answered my question, why should the Israeli's give up any land that they fought so hard fighting off Naked Islamic aggression? Barren land that once they possessed they worked hard at developing it to make it produce a bounty for the world.
Why should they give any of it up, why should they even want a two state solution when Muslims rejected it at first, still reject it in principal?
i see readical moderates grasp of the israeli agrression of the palestinians is as bad as his grasp of american politics,i still cant believe he is hardcore 5 point calvinist but still endorsed obama for president, a president all calvinists think is not christian,watch mr whites video the day after the election for this view,but mr moderate in his now missing blog says who ever thinks that obama is not a christian is a fool. hm another argument against the holy spirit one aplogist condeming him (the president ) to hell for not being christian and a internet troll who says who ever think this is a fool and so he condems himself to hell according to matthew 5:22.
the problem with the likes of radical moderate is that he is a zionist christian so israel comes before everything i mean according to his belief his God might have a cousin or a distant relative somewhere in there. the fact that so many christians support this terror state is proof that they are not being giuded by one third of thier god that this spirit is anything but holy.
@ken your answer to yahya question about why christians come to such different theological conclusions about thier beliefs when they are supposedly being guided by a being dwelling within them is laughble because you didnt even try to answer it just a gave a veiw quotes from the bible and pretended like you did but i do see why it is such a tough question for christians because there is no answer because if there was such a being dwelling inside each christian there wuldnt be so many sects all claiming that they are saved and everyone else condemned.
back to mr moderate you gave a interesting quote from justin martyr which in fact is a strong argument against the trinity of the christian understanding but does confirm thosewho say the trinity is polythiesm,you read is dialougue with the jew typho and it becomes more clear that justin expressed views that made God the father totally separate from the logos and the spirit the trinity as expressed by christians is polythiesm.
To Fifth Monarchy Man
You say multiple persons in one being is a contradiction in terms yet you accuse someone that you are having a conversation with just that.
Does this not seem inconsistent to you?
-- Where did I say that ? --
2 Persons in one Being is a sickness called dissociative identity disorder or split personality.
Radical Moderate, like his nickname, has a split personality, on one hand he is for 2 state solution, on the other hand he is against Israel giving back occupied territories. There are people who won't recognize wrong, until someone comes and take his own house, and be condemned to life as a refugee.
@1moremuslim
you said...
"Radical Moderate, like his nickname, has a split personality, on one hand he is for 2 state solution,"
I said no such thing. I said most Americans are for a two state solution while most Muslims are for the destruction of Israel.
As for me, my thoughts are clear. If there is to be a "two state solution" then the Pali's get what they get. Which is the way it is now, no more and no less.
No right of return for the Pali's who fled, no Jerusalem, that is Israel's capital, no dismantling of any settlements, you get what you get.
If they wanted more should of accepted it back in 1947 and on.
Beggars can not be choosers.
Now I would and do support a solution. A buy out of the Pali's. Buy them out and relocate them in the west. Let them live there lives, grow there children free of hate. But you Muslims will not support such a thing, because you do not care about these people, you want them to suffer.
radical moderate ,
From you '..Now I would and do support a solution. A buy out of the Pali's. Buy them out and relocate them in the west..'
Why don't we take it one step further. It was the christians who gassed the jews during WW2 in Europe. Why not carve out israel in Europe and relocate everybody there?
From you '..No right of return for the Pali's who fled, no Jerusalem..'. Double standards , why then the right of return for jews who fled from jerusalem all those hundreds of years before?
The problem with zionist christian of your like is that Israel / jews are just pawns in you trying to fulfill the nonsensical prophecies leading up to the 'rapture' / end of world. You don't actually care about the well being of the jews. You believe that your so called god , biblical jesus , will come and go on a merry slaughter of non christians (jews included) and you will join in and slaughter non christians in front of your so called god per luk19:27.
You are a hypocrite.
hey all,
I haven’t given this a lot of thought but personally I favor a one state solution based on federalism with a constitution guaranteeing majority rule and very strong minority rights and a divided executive branch.
This would be on the condition that all countries in the neighborhood establish by international treaty the separation of Church /mosque/ synagogue and state and robust religious freedom including the freedom to blaspheme and apostatize.
I solved the Mideast problem in two paragraphs does that make me illegible for a Nobel Prize? ;-)
peace
Fifth Monarchy Man
I solved the Mideast problem in two paragraphs does that make me illegible for a Nobel Prize? ;-)
Good idea, however what are we going to do with all the Muslims?
Sam1528
Pali's butcher family, and then celebrate by handing out sweets.
Thats why Pali's can not and will not be allowed to return.
To Fifth Monarchy Man:
The One state Solution was proposed by Ahmadinejad, he was blamed for calling to the destruction of Israel.
Israel refuse to keep the Children who were BORN in Israel, they deport them within 24 Hours, only to keep the Jewishness of the state. Let alone to let the Palestinians vote in Israel. People still deny that Israel is an Apartheid state.
1moreMuslim
you said...
"Israel refuse to keep the Children who were BORN in Israel, they deport them within 24 HR"
Yes and did you know that Jews also kill Christian children and use their blood to make matza.
They also kill Pali's and steal their organs.
@1moreMuslim
I forgot, did you also know those Jews caused the Earth Quake and Indonesian Tsunami?
I be they also caused the one in Japan with there earthquake weapon.
You said,
The One state Solution was proposed by Ahmadinejad, he was blamed for calling to the destruction of Israel.
I say,
To advocate a one state solution with out conditions similar to the ones I laid out would be the equivalent to calling for the destruction of Israel.
The same way that calling for universal suffrage in the Kansas territory before the US civil war was the equivalent of giving a green light for the terrible destruction that followed in that region.
The same as establishing “one state” in the territory of the old soviet union with out strict conditions would mean the destruction of Kazakhstan.
This is not rocket science
You say,
Israel refuse to keep the Children who were BORN in Israel, they deport them within 24 Hours, only to keep the Jewishness of the state
I say,
I don’t care to place blame one way or the other in the middle of a negotiation. It's not productive
The only way for the Fifth monarchy man accord to work is if we look forward not back.
What ever the future “one state” decided to do about the right of return would be up to them. Since my plan would call for strong federalism and a divided executive It would be difficult for either side to make this kind of decision with out consulting with the other parties involved and coming up with a compromise.
That is how politics works.
On the other hand firing rockets and sending suicide bombers only guarantees that Israel will dig in there heals until those Palestinians displaced by war are all dead due to old age.
peace
Fifth said...
"Israel will dig in there heals until those Palestinians displaced by war are all dead due to old age"
I guess you didnt know. The Pali's have permanent perpetual refugee status. It goes to their children, and children's children and children's children etc... etc... etc...
See normally refugee status only goes from those that are refugee's and any direct children they may have. That is how it is in any other refugee crises. But the Muslims ohh those Muslims, first they reject a two state solution. Then they invade Israel creating the refugee problem, then the keep the pali's in perpetual refugee status.
So even if the original refugee's died off, and their children died off, it doesn't matter because the pali's are permanent refugee's.
Also the Arab Muslim countries who caused this mess to begin with, keep those same pali's they told to leave and would be allowed to return to take the Jewish booty. Well they keep them locked up in Refugee camps. Yeah allah and the Muslims are really merciful to each other.
There arab muslim bretheren really did a number on them.
To Radical Moderate:
Your comment on deportation of Children of foreign workers in Israel, shows that you are not aware of what is happening in Israel.
Read and learn:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-begins-long-fought-deportation-of-foreign-workers-kids-on-yishai-s-orders-1.349220
1moreMuslim
You said...
"Your comment on deportation of Children of foreign workers in Israel,"
Typical Muslim bait and switch move the goal post. Your did not mention anything about foreign workers. You made it sound that as soon as a Pali was born they were deported. Nice try.
Israel is no the United States, just becasue your born in Israel does not make you a Israeli, so Israel does have the right to deport anyone who is a foreigner it is there right as a nation.
Secondly I believe the US is the only country in the world that makes the only requirement on citizenship that you be born in the United States.
Radical Moderate:
Secondly I believe the US is the only country in the world that makes the only requirement on citizenship that you be born in the United States.
I would add my country Canada, UK, Ireland and many others.
The Question is how many countries in the world, that deport schooled Children of legal foreign workers, because of race/religion?
radical moderate ,
From you : '..(Pali's) butcher family, and then celebrate by handing out sweets.
Thats why (Pali's) can not and will not be allowed to return..'
Try substituting in the brackets with
(a) israeli
(b) christian
(c) lord resistance army
(d) red neck
1moreMuslim
I stand correct English Speaking Western countries you become a citizen at birth. But no Islamic, Muslim Arab countries have that. Interesting. So just becasue your born in KSA, or Jordon, Or Egypt, or Syria or where ever does not make you citizen of that country. It goes by your Racial Background. HMM SOUNDS RACIST TO ME.
Secondly it is the Israel right to deport any foreign non Israel citizen from their country if they so choose to. They are a sovereign state. Which I think is the thing you hate the most.
sam1528
I thought I gave you to Uncle Tom, lol
can you demonstrate to me where any of those groups entered into a pali's home and stabbed and hacked to death a Palestinian family and then the Israeli's or Americans celebrated by handing out candy?
radical moderate ,
TQ , I find uncletrvlingjim an engaging person with fair / objective opinions. Far cry from you - a red neck who probably never ventured out of your hometown and highly likely living under the armpits of your mom.
I will give one better.
(1) Priest impregnated nun
(2) Priest forced nun to have abortion (killing baby) and nun
(3) Priest officiated her requiem mass.
'..Among the abuses detailed is the case of a nun being forced to have an abortion by the priest who impregnated her. She later died and he officiated at her requiem mass..' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1234268.stm
You still have not answered:
Israel / jews are just pawns for you zionist christians to fulfill the nonsensical biblical prophecy of 'rapture' / 'end of days'??
To Radical Moderate:
Where did I say not giving citizenship by birth, is racist. I was just talking about DEPORTING foreign workers' children. Where do you see Muslim countries deporting children born on their soil because because they are not Muslims?
A child born in Israel doesn't get citizenship, FINE. Why a jewish man, born in New York, never saw the land of Jesus, can get citizenship? Sounds like naked racism. Can you show me in the democratic world, a government who gives citizenship based on race/religion?
Muslims countries don't give citizenship to foreigners, Muslims and non-Muslim alike.
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