Dr Laurence B. Brown presents his arguments against the Trinity on the DeenShow.
Key Points of this Video:
Introduction [start time 00:00]
The word trinity is not in the Bible [start time 03:16]
The Doctrine of Trinity is not found is not in the Bible [start time 03:24]
Where did this doctrine come from? [start time 04:24]
Trinity is an evolved doctrine [start time 05:24]
Harpers Bible Dictionary [start time 08:27]
The new catholic encyclopedia [start time 10:53]
Why I left Christianity [start time 13:54]
Did I have the holy spirit inside me? [start time 15:14]
No evidence that supports the Trinity [start time 16:57]
Conclusion [start time 26:41]
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128 comments:
Afghans mourn Bin Laden's death
Mohamed Azand is not a fighter, he doesn't even consider himself to be radical "Its a big loss for Muslims...He (Usama Bin Ladden) was a revered Muslim and he was a very good guy."
Another Muslim said...
"He was a Muslim leader and a pillar of Islam, now if a Muslim dies like this he will take those that kill him to hell."
Another Muslim said...
"He was a Islamic figure head and he stood for the sake of Islam, fighting for Islam"
Children raise their hands, to say he was a good Man, and he will become a Martyr.
Al Jazeera
Yahya Snow said...
"Firstly, Bin Laden was no sheikh. He certainly was not our sheikh."
Here is a video of Muslims in Jakarta Indonesia calling UBL just that, a SHIEK and a MARTYR in a prayer service.
Sheik UBL
anonymous is yet another clueless christian.
afghanistan and indonesia have low literacy and HIGH poverty.
caan you show me any scholar that felt sympathy for osama? didn't think so.
@Yahya Snow
I just could't resist sorry ANON lol.
First Snowman, how does a "ATHEIST" try really hard to be a Christian. LOL That was said a few times.
So let's take a look at a few the points.
First the standard argument the word Trinity does not appear in the bible. I'm shocked LOL. I even think that this alleged DR. was even embarrassed by that one, because he quickly wanted to move on.
Point number 9 and point number 5 are the very same points. LOL oh this guy is a real thinker lol.
But I think the best by far is point number 8. "The doctrine of the Trinity was dreamed up by Tertulian a lawyer 200 years after Christ"
Although I could use many quotes from various church fathers in the first second and third century AD I think the words of Justin Martyr are sufficient to destroy this foolish claim.
Justin Martyr in his First Apology
CHAPTER XIIL -- CHRISTIANS SERVE GOD RATIONALLY.
Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third,
There you have it, Jesus is worshiped in the second place and the prophetic spirit (the holy spirit)in the third place. That was written around 150 AD or so.
I will address one more point and It think that will be enough to expose this "Atheist\Muslim" as the fraud he is.
Pint number 6. Everybody knows Hans Koon "Quote MODES OF BEING" LOL well thats good since we do not believe in MODES OF BEING lol. We are trinitarians not Modelists. Obvious this guy does not know what he is talking about.
what a joke, how pathetic.
@Yahya Snow
One more thing, you do realize that this guy is reporting to be a DR of Divinity. A SCHOLAR as you Muslims like to say.
Well some of his points, some of these scholarly points Joshua Evans brought up in his "10 Reasons why Jesus Can not be God". WOW looks like this scholar got out scholared by Joshua Evans, whom I don't think even has a bachelors degree. LOL
Salamualaykum
Allah is the most High, the Greatest. None has the right to be worshipped but Him. Allah Sees everything and hears everything.He answeres the prayers and He is the Most Forgiving. My brother Yahya, why do the Christians try so hard to find proof for there idolworship? Do they really believe that Allah, the King of kings, the Allmighty has a mother (Mariam)? And a father and a child?
Isa (alayhi salam) Will reject these people on the day of judgement and declare him free from all worship beside Allah The Most High.
May Allah guide these Christians to the truth and May He make them brother who Will struggle for Islam and compete with us in good deeds amin.
O Allah, protect us from idolworship and its people.
Ya Allah, bless our brother Yahya in his works, forgive us our sins, join us in Paradise amin
And send peace and blessings on our beloved Rasul Muhammad.
Wa Salamualaykum Wa rahmatullah
@Yahya Snow
Over the past several months of exposing your lies and deception on this blog you have invited me to Islam many times saying it will make me "A better person".
Well my family owes you a debt of grattitude, since your reasons, and arguments for me to convert to Islam were just so pathetic. Because of your shoddy logic, lack of reasoning skills, dishonesty, and general will full ignorance, my family can sleep safe and sound, knowing I will not do to them what this Muslim revert did to his family because they refused to convert to Islam.
"A man who was angry that his family would not go along with his conversion to Islam was sentenced to life in prison Wednesday in the slayings of his mother, pregnant wife, infant son and two nieces in a rampage last year on the South Side...
"He was upset at his wife and their family — he felt disrespected that they would not join his religion," Assistant State's Attorney Jim McKay said. "It didn't matter if they were young or old, pregnant or not. He wanted them dead."
The massacre began in the early morning hours April 14, at the family home in the 7400 block of South Mozart Street. Larry first shot his mother, Leona Larry, 57, as she slept on a sofa in the living room. He then went systematically through three first-floor bedrooms, fatally shooting his wife, Twanda Thompson, 19; his 7-month-old son, Jihad; his 3-year-old niece, Keleasha Larry; and his 16-year-old niece, Keyshai Fields, who was pregnant."
Allah is Pleased
SSpeaking of high rates of illiteracy, I am beginning to belove radical not so moderate falls into that same category. Can you tell me where dr. Brown claims to be dr. Of div? To my knowledge he is an md and stated on Eddie's show.
Now mr radical. This is a wake up call to you. i say this with the utmost sincerity and firmness. I am from chicago. I work a few blocks from where jihad was chased down the street and killed. My wife works for an npo in that same neighborhood on uchicago Southside. My wifes organization personally met several times with the families of those slain. I myself talked shortly with the family and sent my condolences. They do do not blame islam or Muslims but rather our health system who does not make sure people impoverished people with mental health issues get the help they need. My point in stating the above info is this; you are not a person of God if you think picking this article off of google then posting it on yahyas website to get a rise out of people is a good idea. You are misguided. You have no evidence to the contrary, I highly recommend you wake up, evaluate yourself and start searching for meaning in your life. The way you acted opportinisticaly and used that article (which happened in someones life) to attack a group of people that have nothing to do with some guy hearing voices in his head and killing people is just atrocious. You have shown your true face and I don't know how you line with yourself, may Bid help and guide you. Please stop posting here. You are disgusting and an utter disgrace to people who try to follow the teachings of christ.
@Mike
At 2:30 into the video, they discuss his background, where it is said he has a Doctor of Divinity and PHD in Religious studies.
Mike I am a little it confused as to who or what you are talking about when you wrote this...
"I work a few blocks from where jihad was chased down the street and killed."
Who is "Jihad" and what are you talking about?
Are you talking about the article I posted?
Please clarify
Thank you
radical moderate ,
'bla-bla-bla yak-yak-yak' by you but in the end there is still no word nor concept of trinity in the bible as pointed out by dr brown. Its just a pathetic attempt of obfuscation by you.
Justin martyr first apology 'CHAPTER XIIL -- CHRISTIANS SERVE GOD RATIONALLY'- Where is the term 'trinity' in there? Isn't it true that tertullian was the one who coined up the word 'trinity'?
This caught my eye on a cursory glance of justin martyr first apology
Chapter 21. Analogies to the history of Christ
'..He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus..'
first apology
In other words , justin martyr agreed that the concept of jesus dying / being resurrected is of no difference to the pagan roman concept of their deity dying and being resurrected.
TQ , for the reference of justin martyr first apology. At least we are clear that the early church father admitted that the concept of biblical jesus dying / being resurrected is no different from the paganism of the romans.
At times I also wonder whose side you are on. TQ again for pointing us to justin martyr first apology.
@Sam1528
You said...
"bla-bla-bla yak-yak-yak' "
That has to be the first intelligent thing you have said.
Breath in Breath out, Truth goes into a Muslims mind, and Lies come out. LOL
radical moderate ,
Oops , try finishing the sentence ;
'..'bla-bla-bla yak-yak-yak' by you but in the end there is still no word nor concept of trinity in the bible as pointed out by dr brown. Its just a pathetic attempt of obfuscation by you..'
Out of the blue .... we muslims are lying. Hmmmm ...
its good arguments from dr brown. haters are being haters becaz they cant answer dr brown
Sam said:
Where is the term 'trinity' in there? Isn't it true that tertullian was the one who coined up the word 'trinity'?
I say,
I just learned that the English philosopher Henry More (1614–1687) coined the word monotheism. Does that mean Monotheism did not exist before he did this?
Come on guys think for a minute
If a Hindu talk show gave an interview with the key points like these
The word monotheism is not in the Quran
The Doctrine of monotheism is not found is not in the Quran
Where did this doctrine come from?
Monotheism is an evolved doctrine
Why I left Islam
etc
Would you say It contained good arguments or would you just roll your eyes at the juvenile schoolyard claptrap
Seriously you guys need to use a little logic. You can't really be this naive.
Peace
fifth monarchy now you're just being real silly. the word "trinity" cannot be compared to the monotheism word. do you want to give your head a shake?
Islam teaches ONE GOD and in ONE form not in 3 like yours. the opposite of monotheism is polyetheism which Islam is against.
its funny to me how christians still don't answer dr brown here. guess david wood won't challenge him to a debate either.
and how hinduism is related i dont know.
fifth monarchy man ,
I invite you to think with an open mind.
'Monotheism' is an english word loosely translated in arabic which is 'tawheed'. Its derived from the root word 'ahad' meaning '1' which can be found in Quran112. Therefore the word 'monotheism' and its concept has always been in the Quran which was revealed in arabic.
However as agreed by you trinity is a word that comes very much later. Neither trinity nor its root word (if any)is in the bible. In addition its concept is also not found in the bible as pointed out by dr brown.
This boils to the question by dr brown. Is the belief of trinity from revelation or evolution?
LOL OH I TRY TO RESIT I REALLY DO, THE SPIRIT IS WILLING BUT THE FLESH IS SO WEEK>
A proven lying slandering Muslim said...
"Monotheism' is an english word loosely translated in arabic which is 'tawheed'."
Challenge to any Muslim, show me the Surah and Aya that the actual word TAWHEED is in? Can you do that?
If not then quit smokin that TA WHEED.
Ali said:
Islam teaches ONE GOD and in ONE form not in 3 like yours.
I say:
Did you really just say that?
No Christian teaches ONE GOD in Three Forms.
That is a Heresy called Modalism that specifically denies the Trinity. Christians learn that God is not in three forms in Sunday school at about 6 years old.
How can you judge if Brown did a good job. You don’t even know what he is supposed to be arguing against.
The mind boggles.
Here is a suggestion. Spend a little time trying to actually understand the Trinity before you claim someone has made a good argument against it.
That way you might have a little more creditability
Peace
Fifth said...
"Did you really just say that?"
OH yes he did.
Fifth please just put down this MUSLIM and walk away just walk away now. :) Other wise you will be sucked down a never ending rabbit hole of self contradictory statements, out right lies, circular reasoning, every logical fallacy under the sun, and just out right aggravation.
So please brother for your own sanity just walk away from this guy. :)
radical moderate ,
From you '..A proven lying slandering Muslim said...
"Monotheism' is an english word loosely translated in arabic which is 'tawheed'."..'
Can you continue?
'..Its derived from the root word 'ahad' meaning '1' which can be found in Quran112. Therefore the word 'monotheism' and its concept has always been in the Quran which was revealed in arabic..'
Then you go up in arms about lying. Hmmm , what can I say. You have the luxury of 2cor12:16.
@Radical Moderate,
I really do not appreciate your childish and empty comments of "exposing lies".
Stop beating your chest and presenting yourself as doing something of any note.
Yes, I invite you to the worship of the god of Jesus (p). Why are you so opposed to worshipping the God of Jesus?
I invite you again. This time, please think over it and leave your emotional attachment to the idea of a dying and rising "god-man" at the door. Both Price and Ehrman can cite other such stories of other "godmen" doing the same. These are pagan ideas which you are still clinging on to.
It is high time you joing the Muslims and start worshipping the God that Jesus worshipped.
Search for the truth and it shall set you free...
Fifth,
Tawheed is simply belief in the Oneness of God.
We do not need the word tawheed to be in the Quran for us to believe in One God.
There is a Verse in Surah 112 which states Allah is One.
As for the trinity not being in the bible as a "word". It's a poor argument from the Muslims to use that. Hence why Dr Brown swiftly moved on to his next point.
However, the tripartite formula is not in the OT nor the NT.
The way our trinitarian Christian friends arrive at the trinity is by using a sytematic method - its indirect. Hence the reason why you have folk using the same Bible and disbelieving in the trinity - the Unitarians.
@Yahya Snow
Again no thanks, my family does thank you for being such a poor presenter of Islam. Oh wait there inst a Muslim alive or dead that could present Islam in any other way other then to be completely repulsive.
Come on Muslims, surely there is one of you that can show me the word TAWHEED IN THE QURAN.
@Yahya Snow
You wrote...
"We do not need the word tawheed to be in the Quran for us to believe in One God."
So if you Muslims do not need the word Tawheed to believe in your GOD, then does that mean that Christians do not need teh word trinity to believe in our GOD?
You also wrote...
"As for the trinity not being in the bible as a "word". It's a poor argument from the Muslims to use that. Hence why Dr Brown swiftly moved on to his next point."
So since it is such a poor argument, and since it kicked off Dr L Browns top ten, I guess that means that Dr L Brown uses POOR arguments. And I would agree with you.
You also wrote...
"However, the tripartite formula is not in the OT nor the NT."
yes the bible does not teach a "tripartite" formula, because that is not what we believe.
However the Bible does teach a Triune God. Two books I suggest you read. One is Dr Whites "The forgotten Trinity" and the other is a multi volume set "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus" by Dr Michael Brown.
@Radical,
What are you on about?
'The tripartite formula' is a term the scholarly giant, Metzger uses. Do you even know what it is?
You simply make yourself look foolish.
As for the word "trinity" not being in the Bible. Yes, it is a poor argument. For some reason you have dwelt on the first sentence uttered br Dr Brown and avoided pondering over the other points raised. That tactic may give the impression you have offered something of substance to those of a dim disposition but for the rest of us it is simply a smoke screen on your part.
Stop with this tomfoolery and start pondering over the substantive points.
Again, I invite you to the worship of the God of Jesus (p). Jesus worshipped God, just like Muslims do. Now it is your turn...
Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another.
@Yahya Snow
You wrote...
"The tripartite formula' is a term the scholarly giant, Metzger uses. Do you even know what it is?"
Please provide the quote and reference to that. I highly doubt that Bruce Metzger used "Tripartate" to refer to the trinity or the Nature of the one True Living God. And if he did, he would be wrong, just wrong. Sorry we Christians do not worship the "SCHOLARS" like you Muslims do.
Second
you wrote...
"For some reason you have dwelt on the first sentence uttered br Dr Brown and avoided pondering over the other points raised. "
Sir my very first post on this subject I pretty much skipped over point 10, and discussed a few other points. As you can see in my very first comment on this subject.
yahya said:
The way our trinitarian Christian friends arrive at the trinity is by using a sytematic method - its indirect.
I say,
You don’t hear the word Trinity bandied about by most Christians any more than you hear other theological words like monergism or eschatology or pneumatology or monotheism . Those sorts of words are shorthand for folks who like to think deeply and explore nuisances of discuss the implications of concepts in great detail.
Mostly Christians just believe the Bible.
The Bible directly and uneqivocally teaches that ……
1) God is one
2) The Father is God
3) The Son is God
4) The Spirit is God
5) The Father the Son and the Spirit are not the same Person
It is impossible to read the Bible not come away with these ideas. They are found everywhere in it’s pages.
If you don't believe that one of these five doctrines found in the scripture just say so and I can burry you in passages
you say:
Hence the reason why you have folk using the same Bible and disbelieving in the trinity - the Unitarians.
I say,
Ive never meet a unitatarian who Believed that the Bible was clear understandable and contained no errors. Mostly they spend their time trying to prove that it does not mean what it plainly says.
That’s why for the most part unitatarins accept authorities other than the Scriptures to be binding or devolve into squishy universalism
Show me someone who takes the Bible seriously to be what it claims to be, God's word to us and sufficient for our faith and practice and I’ll show you a trinitarian Christian. It’s really that simple
Peace
//No Christian teaches ONE GOD in Three Forms.//
yes thats what i said.
The countdown refutation continues. Part 1.
In my first post on this nonsense I refuted POINT 8, I also refuted Point 6 since Trinitarian Christians are not Modelists, we do not believe that God has "Modes of Being".
With Yahya Snows help, point 10 was easily refuted and does not require any further comment. Thanks Yahya for refuting your scholar for me as well as Sam1528. I love it when Muslims refute Muslims, its like using nature to kill nature.
So I will now foccus on Point 9 which is also point 6 lol.
Point 9 your scholar says "The Harpers Collins Encyclopedia of the Bible says the doctrine of the Trinity was not revealed in the Old or New Testment"
Don't know what Harper Collins Encyclopedia is, but I can tell you the doctrine of the trinity is revealed in the OLD TESTEMENT.
Lets take a look at the first book, the first chapter and the first 3 verse.
Gen 1-3 "In the(A) beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was(B) without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said,(C) "Let there be light," and there was light"
So here we have GOD (The Father), who is in his heavenly realm creating the universe, his spirit is hovering over the deep, and with his WORD (The Son) he creates Light.
Now what does John 1:1 say "In the begging was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD, and the WORD IS GOD"
So with the first THREE VERSES in the OT, and the First verse in the JOHN this point has been totally refuted.
I could stop here, but I will demonstrate a few more verses in part 2.
The countdown refutation continues. Part 2.
Now that I have established that God demonstrates his existence in three distinct persons in Gen 1: 1-3. Lets take a look at another verse in Gen 1. Verse 26 reads.
"Then God said,(O) "Let us make man[h] in our image,(P) after our likeness"
The word for God is אלהים 'elohiym. It is the plural of EL, a singular generic term for GOD. He then says "Let US make man in our Image".
Now I know Muslims make up some nonsense that this is a "MAJESTIC WE, a Plural of Majesty". Only one small problem there is no such concept in biblical Hebrew. Not only that, but the Jewish scribes had problems with this verse, and did not explain it away as a "Majestic WE".
Lets take a look how Targum Yonasan, and Midrash explain it.
"And God said to the ministering angels who had een created on teh second day of creation of the world "'Let us Make Man'"
When Mosses wrote the Torah and came to this verse (Let us make) which is in the pluarl and implies that there is more than one Creater he said: "Sovereign of the Universe! Why do youo thus furnish a pretext for the MIM (Heritics, Christians) to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?" "Write!" God replied. "Whoever wishes to err will err... Instead let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when he came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels" (Midrash)
First notice, that no "ROYAL WE" is used as a explination, and second look at the explanation. God takes council with his creation on what to create and in what image to create. He also likens his creation (angels) to himself, "LET US MAKE.. IN OUR IMAGE"
Obviously the scribes had a problem with this verse, but their explanation causes more problems then it solves.
The countdown refutation continues. Part 3.
Let's take a look at another "Trinitarian" verse Gen 3:8.
"And they heard the sound of the יהוה Yĕhovah (LORD) אלהים 'elohiym (God) walking in the garden in the cool [fn] of the day,"
A few things to notice, first the divine name is used YHWH, this is Gods name, it is his name, no one shares this name, he does not give this name to anyone. Also notice the word for God is also again in the Plural form.
But here we have YHWH walking in the garden in the cool of the day. Now Muslims will explain this as a "Figure of speech" but is that the way the Jewish scribes viewed it. Lets take a look.
The stones edition of the Tanak has "They heard the sound of HASHEM God MANIFESTING HIMSELF IN THE GARDEN. So according to the Stones Edition this is God manifesting himself in the Garden.
But lets take a look at a ancient source. The Aramaic Targums.
"Walking in the garden in the strength of the day......And the MEMRA (Word) of the Lord God called to Adam.
It is clear that this verse is not understood as "Symbolism" or a "Metaphor".
In part 4 I will address two last verse and put this all together.
The countdown refutation continues. Part 4.
For this part I will addresses two passages in Gen 18 and 19.
First Gen 18:1-2
And the יהוה Yĕhovah (LORD) appeared to him by the oaks [fn] of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day.
The Targum words it this way.
"AND the glory of the Lord was revealed to him in the valley of Mamre; and he, being ill from the pain of circumcision, sat at the door of the tabernacle in the fervour (or strength) of the day. And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, three angels in the resemblance of men were standing before him;"
Notice first the use of the Divine name YHWH second the use of the term "The glory of the LORD was revealed to Abrham".
So here Abram is in direct presence, he is in direct contact with the GLORY OF GOD.
The Rabbi's explain it this way. That although Abram was in the direct presence of GOD, in the Glory of God, he looks up and sees three men (strangers), and because he is known for his hospitality he has no choice but to run to their aid and tend to their needs.
Now I ask you Muslims does this make sense. That a man is in the direct presence of GOD, he is in HIS GLORY and he is distracted to look up to see the strangers. Also he puts God on hold to go and run and attend to the needs of these men. Honestly does that make any sense.
But the explanation gets worse.
After meeting with these 3 Men slash Angels, the angels leave and Abram is left alone talking to the YHWH
"Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way." Gen 18:16
So the Men leave, and the next verse The Lord speaks in Gen 18:16-21, asking the rhetorical question should he keep from Abraham what he is about to do, how he has Chosen Abraham to be a great nation etc... But then in verse 21 he says...
"I will go down to see whether they have done altogether [fn] according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know."
The countdown refutation continues. Part 4b. Gen 18-19 CONT.
In verse 22 we read...
"So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD."
So we have the LORD saying he is going to go down personaly to Sodom to see if they have indeed sinned in such away, and we have "THE MEN' heading down to Sodom, and we have Abraham left standing before the Lord.
Gen 18:23-32 has Abraham conversing with the LORD, bargaining with him on how many righteous will it take to save Sadom.
After Abraham talks God down to 10 righteous, the YHWH leaves Abraham. "And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place." Gen 18:33
So now we have the LORD saying he will to Sodom personaly, "The MEN' on there way to Sodom, and now the LORD has left Abraham who returns home.
Question: how many Men appeared to Abraham? Answer 3.
Question: How many men arrive at Sadom? The answer is in Gen 19.
"The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom." Gen 19:1
Whats that, "the men" leave for Sodom, and only two show up? What happened to the third Angel? Did he get distracted? Did he get lost? Was he two slow and couldn't keep up with the other two? Does he show up later?
Lets take a look.
Gen 19:2-23 has the story of Lot and the Two angels, Lot barging with the town men to take his daughters instead of defiling the men, the men striking the towns people blind, and the Men telling Lot to flee and not look back.
So we have a missing Man\angel,and a missing a YHWH. So where is YHHW? He said he was going to go their personally. Where is the third Man? Verse 24 has the answer.
Then the YHWH (LORD) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the YHWH (LORD) out of heaven.
There is your third Man, there is your the Missing LORD. He is there at Sodom, he is calling down fire from the YHWH in heaven.
The countdown refutation continues. Part 4c. Gen 18-19 CONT.
The Targums put it this way.
[JERUSALEM. 24. And the Word of the Lord Himself had made to descend upon the people of Sedom and Amorah showers of favour, that they might work repentance from their wicked works. But when they saw the showers of favour, they said, So, our wicked works are not manifest before Him. He turned (then), and caused to descend upon them bitumen and fire from before the Lord from the heavens.] And He overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and the herbage of the earth.
So the Memra the Word of YHWH is raining down fire and sulfar from heaven.
Well I think thats about it. As you can see the Doctrine of the Trinity is steeped in the Old Testament. So that part of Point 9 has been refuted.
Briefly to refute the second part that the doctrine of the trinity is not in the New Testament. I refer you to Jude 5-7.
"Now I want(M) to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that(N) Jesus, who saved[c] a people out of the land of Egypt,(O) afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6And(P) the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7just as(Q) Sodom and Gomorrah and(R) the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and(S) pursued unnatural desire,[d] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
In the OT, YHWH saves the people from Israel, in Jude it is Jesus, in the OT it is YHWH who destroys Sodom in Jude it is Jesus.
So point number 9 and even 5 has been refuted.
Oh Sam1528 please don't reply as I will not respond to you. I really do not want to climb down your rabbit whole.
radical moderate ,
I do want to respond. I find your attempt of obfuscation extremely pathetic.
Pssssst , can you show where did 'yahyasnow for refuting your scholar for me as well as Sam1528..'??
Any sane and rational thinking person would appeal to the the scholars of judaism / hebrew authority when addressing the OT. After all the original language of the OT is hebrew.
Part 1
Gen 1:3 And God said, 'Let there be light': and there was light. However you turn the whole issue to '..and with his WORD (The Son) he creates Light..' , cross refererence to joh1:1. Ha ha , biblical jesus appeared out of nowhere.
You interpolated (aka BS) the words "God said" into "word". The following best summarise the so called 'word' in hebrew scripture of the OT.
'.."The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided..'
'..In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divinepower, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity..'
Aramaic memra, meaning the creative word of God
1 of 2
radical moderate ,
2 of 2
Part 2
Lets ask rabbi tovia singer. His response regarding gen1:26.
'..This argument, however, is grievously flawed. In fact, a great number of Trinitarian Christian scholars have long abandoned the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead. Rather, Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court. Let’s read the comments of a number of preeminent Trinitarian Bible scholars on this subject. For example, the evangelical Christian author Gordon J. Wenham, who is no foe of the Trinity and authored a widely respected two-volume commentary on the Book of Genesis, writes on this verse,
Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.1 ..'
rabbi tovia singer on gen1:26
Part 3 & 4
Nothing much except 'bla-bla-bla yakatty-yak-yak' from you. Reproducing the explanation from the jewish encyclopedia again ;
'..In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divinepower, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity..'
It is interesting to note rabbi tovia singer's comment. '..In fact, a great number of Trinitarian Christian scholars have long abandoned the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead..'.
One can conclude such argument of trying to prove the 'trinity' in the OT is appealed to by people of less than average intelligence
Is this how it is going to go?
RM posts a text that according to the natural reading supports the Trinity then a Muslim responds by quoting a person with a antitrinatrian bias jumping through hoops trying to show that the text does not really mean what it clearly says.
We are only at the very beginning of the first book of a 66 book Bible and the mental gymnastics that the antitrintarians will have to engage in won’t get any easier.
The exercise of maintaining that this doctrine was invented in the third century and has no basis in schripture could get to be quite a chore.
Peace
Fifth said...
"Is this how it is going to go?"
Yup that's the way it goes around here. It's funny Muslims will appeal to anyone, atheists, agnostics, liberals, even the founder of the Church of Satan, Anton LeVay, and now ZIONIST anti missionary JEWS.
Nothing unites a rabid ZIONIST JEW,and rabid Jihadi Muslim, hell bent on the destruction of Israel, like attacking Christ, and the doctrine of the Trinity.
I believe what makes a scholar to Muslims, is anyone who attacks Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity.
//I believe what makes a scholar to Muslims, is anyone who attacks Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity.//
the same goes for your entire acts 17 crew
@Ali
yes the Scholars that Acts17 quotes are Islamic Schoalrs, like Ibn Kathir, the Two Jals, AL Qurtabi, Yassir Qaddi, etc...
All of them are anti trinitarian.
Glad you noticed, shows your paying attention.
And see that is the difference, when we tell the truth about Islam, we use your own scholars to do it.
Sorry you Muslims can not do the same when it comes to the true religion of Christ.
Happy Seven Day anniversary of President Obama (With the help of Seal team 6) Turnning Sheik Bin Ladden into Sheik Bin Dead.
I so can not wait for the video game. POW; HEAD SHOT!!!
fifth monarchy man ,
from you '..RM posts a text that according to the natural reading supports the Trinity then a Muslim responds by quoting a person with a antitrinatrian bias jumping through hoops trying to show that the text does not really mean what it clearly says..'
This is really funny. Why are you butchering a language to retrofit to your trinity dogma? The original language of the OT is hebrew and by all accounts it is strictly monotheistic.
You are not addressing the crux of the issue but skirting around it with empty rethorics in support of your 'brother in christ'. This is very poor.
radical moderate ,
From you '..And see that is the difference, when we tell the truth about Islam, we use your own scholars to do it..'
Hmmm , this is ironic. Didn't us muslims quote rabbi tovia singer , a scholar in the hebrew scripture (aka OT)?? Did you quote any scholar of judaism in your attempt of trying to prove the trinity in the OT?
sam said
Why are you butchering a language to retrofit to your trinity dogma?
I say,
example please
you say
The original language of the OT is hebrew and by all accounts it is strictly monotheistic.
I say
Of course it is but I don't understand your point. Trinitarian Christians are monotheistic by definition
peace
fifth monarchy man ,
Where in the context of the OT in its original language ever mention let alone support the concept of the triune god (aka trinity)?
Only christians define the trinity to be monotheistic. What about the components of trinity? Arethey not gods to christians?
The closest description that I can think of is that the trinity is akin to a private limited company with the father as chairman / president , the son as managing director / CEO and holy spirit as director / COO. Yeah , it is a company but what about its board of directors??
radical,
we've all witnessed david and nabeel lie. we've seen them try to fool us with their false made up hadiths and misinterpreted re-interpreted verses. and you call them scholars? LOL
Sam said,
Where in the context of the OT in its original language ever mention let alone support the concept of the triune god (aka trinity)?
I say,
Did you not read the posts by RM?
Pardon the pun but Genesis is only the beginning. You will find the individual truths that I mentioned supported by implication all through out the OT.
Because revelation is progressive doctrine is more explicitly reveled in the NT but you will find ample support for each of the truths through the Bible from beginning to end
you said
What about the components of trinity?
I say,
Christians don’t believe that God has components. God is simple as well as being personal.
you said,
Arethey not gods to christians?
I say,
no
The belief in multiple gods is trytheism not Trinitarianism
Did you not even read what I posted earlier ?
The belief in only one God is one of the foundational truth’s that make up the doctrine the Trinity.
I’ll repost the them again here to make it easy for you
1) there is one God
2) The Father is God
3) The Son is God
4) The Spirit is God
5) The Father the Son and the Spirit are not the same Person
Please commit them to memory so that in the future you can address what Christians actually believe and avoid erecting a straw man
Peace
The closest description that I can think of is that the trinity is akin to a private limited company with the father as chairman / president , the son as managing director / CEO and holy spirit as director / COO. Yeah , it is a company but what about its board of directors??
sam said
The closest description that I can think of is that the trinity is akin to a private limited company
I say,
This would be trytheism not what Christians actually believe.
Any description that is rooted in your experience will necessarily fall short. God is higher than his creation by definition.
To try and imagine God by referencing his creation is Idolatry
peace.
@Fifth Monarchy Man
You asked Sam1528
"Did you not read the posts by RM?"
and
"Did you not even read what I posted earlier ?"
I think it is clear that even if Sam1528 does read what has been written, he does not comprehend it. I'm not joking or being mean he really does have a reading comprehension problem.
He once copied and pasted something I wrote, and then responded to it as if I agreed with him. I have forgotten what it actually was but below is a example.
Me "The Sky is Blue where I live"
Sam1528 copy's and pastes that and then responds "RM I'm glad you agree with me that the sky is yellow".
Take his nonsensical response to me in regards to me posting from Gen 1:3 "And God said..."
He replies "You interpolated (aka BS) the words "God said"
LOL that should tell you the level of his reading comprehension. Since I copied directly from the text on bible gateway. There was no interpolation. A quick look at the Hebrew from blueletter bible has
"אלהים 'elohiym אמר 'amar" Elohiym= GOD, amar= SAID.
Information goes into his brain, and then gets all jumbled up so what comes out is no where near the meaning that the information was trying to convey.
He then appeals to Rabbi Tovia Singer. He is a orthodox Rabbi, and all though he is of the political correct crowd that says Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi, he still deny's that Jesus is the Messiah, and any look at the Talmud will show you how the rabbi's really feel about Yeshua and the MIM.
What is even worse for our friend Sam1528 is that I addressed Rabbi Tovia singers objection in my original post.
From Part 2 of my post.
"First notice, that no "ROYAL WE" is used as a explination, and second look at the explanation. God takes council with his creation on what to create and in what image to create. He also likens his creation (angels) to himself, "LET US MAKE.. IN OUR IMAGE" "
@Fifth Monarchy Man
Sam1528 copy and paste of a argument from Rabbi Tovia Singer, a argument that I had addressed in Part 2 of my post demonstrates that Sam1528 does not comprehend what he reads if he does read it at all.
Really think about what this explanation is saying. That God first consulted his angles, second that he likens his angles to himself in the creation of Man. We are created in the image of God, not in the Image of God and angels.
He then goes on to quote the Jewish Encyclopedia and links to it regarding the Memra of the lord. He either did not read this part from the Jewish Encyclopaedia's or he did not comprehend it.
“In the ancient Church liturgy, adopted from the Synagogue, it is especially interesting to notice how often the term ‘Logos,’ in the sense of ‘the Word by which God made the world, or made His Law or Himself known to man,’ was changed into ‘Christ’ (see "Apostolic Constitutions," vii. 25-26, 34-38, et al.). Possibly on account of the Christian dogma, rabbinic theology, outside of the Targum literature, made little use of the term ‘Memra.’”
I believe Jesus had people like Sam1528 in mind when he said...
"Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you." Mathew 7:6
Well Fifth have fun, but as for me I am done with Sam1528 I return him to the pig pen that is Islam.
fifth monarchy man ,
Oh , you mean the diatribe by radical moderate regarding trinity in the OT? It is so easily refuted using references to actual scholarship and authority in hebrew bible. You appeal to such shoddy logic / argument? This is getting from bad to worse.
You still claim progressive revelation of trinity in the bible? Ok then , show us the so called progressive revelation.
From you :
......
The belief in only one God is one of the foundational truth’s that make up the doctrine the Trinity.
1) there is one God
2) The Father is God
3) The Son is God
4) The Spirit is God
5) The Father the Son and the Spirit are not the same Person
......
Lets deconstruct your definition :
(1) What is 'god' in your definition? If 'god' <> 'trinity' then you have 3 gods which are different persons. If you claim 'god' = 'trinity' then 'father'= 'trinity' , 'son' = 'trinity , 'holy spirit' = trinity' appearing in different 3 persons. Which is which?
(2) From your explanation , which you want me to commit to memory. - there is only 1 god manifested in 3 persons. In other words 1 god with 3 different personalities. Why are you worshiping the persons or personalities instead of god (the source of the so called manifestaton)?
(3) Its true then , the so called god which appeared in the person of biblical jesus died 3 days / 3 nights , god was dead - kaput. If that 1 so called god is dead the persons of 'father' / 'son' would also have died.
You have serious logical issues to explain.
This one grabs the top spot in illogical thinking :
'..To try and imagine God by referencing his creation is Idolatry..'
Hmm , biblical jesus came in human form. The holy spirit came in a form of a dove. Both creation of god. There is immediate mental imprint that your god already referenced itself to its creation. That means its idolatry , a by product of man's imagination.
radical moderate ,
TQ for hilighting the following :
'..“In the ancient Church liturgy, adopted from the Synagogue, it is especially interesting to notice how often the term ‘Logos,’ in the sense of ‘the Word by which God made the world, or made His Law or Himself known to man,’ was changed into ‘Christ’ (see "Apostolic Constitutions," vii. 25-26, 34-38, et al.). Possibly on account of the Christian dogma, rabbinic theology, outside of the Targum literature, made little use of the term ‘Memra.’”..'
This is evidence that the context of the hebrew bible (or OT in its original language - hebrew) has been butchered by trinitrian christians to retrofit their dogma of the 'trinity' and the divinity of biblical jesus.
Then you harp on your nonsensical argument about 'royal we' that god '..likens himself to his creation..'. The 'royal we' is always about the 'boss' addressing himself in the company of his 'subordinates'. Never the 'boss' equating himself to his 'subordinates'.
This is double confirmation that trying to prove the trinity in the hebrew bible (OT) is done by people of less than average intelligence. Proven right , the second time.
@Fifth Monarchy Man
Sam1528 latest response is a clear demonstration of his inability to comprehend what is being said to him.
As he said in another response to me.
Sam1528 wrote "Nothing much except 'bla-bla-bla yakatty-yak-yak' from you."
That's it, that some's up his understanding of anything that is being said to him.
Take his latest example of the fullness of what the Jewish Encyclopedia says on the MEMRA.
Sam1528 Wrote...
"This is evidence that the context of the hebrew bible (or OT in its original language - hebrew) has been butchered by trinitrian christians to retrofit their dogma of the 'trinity' and the divinity of biblical jesus."
He clearly does not undertand that first MEMRA is not Hebrew it is Aramaic and second the concept of the MEMRA of the YHWH, the word or logos of God is 100 percent Jewish. And he can not comprehend as Edersheim observed in, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah (Hendrickson Publishers, [ ], 1993), p. 32.
"Another source states, “In the pre-Christian Targums, there is a name for the Word of God, Memra, which recurs hundreds of times. But from the Talmud it has wholly disappeared. Evidently, to go on using it when Christians could point to its realization in a definite historical personage, would have been in the highest degree dangerous to Pharisaic orthodoxy,” Eliakim and Robert S. Little, The Living Age, vol. 197 (Boston: Littell and Co., 1893), p. 456.
Sam1528 just can not understand that Rabbinical Judaism developed as a argument against and a separation from the MIM, that the rabbinical Rabbi's scrubbed any reference of the MEMRA from there understanding of the TANAK. They did this as a argument against the MIM.
But what do you expect from a man who's best argument is "Nothing much except 'bla-bla-bla yakatty-yak-yak' from you."
radical moderate ,
You are going round in circles copying paste articles from answering islam as your defense.
Nobody is disputing that 'memra' is an aramaic term translated from hebrew 'dabar' denoting 'word of god'. Since biblical jesus spoke aramaic , therefore we make reference to 'memra'.
You tried to introduce the concept of 'word of god' becoming human (joh1) which is best summed up by William Barclay (Gospel of John, Saint Andrews Press, 1957, Vol. 1, 14).
'..“The Word,” said John, “became flesh.” We could put it in another way — “the Mind of God became a person.”
See how you butcher the language and its context to retrofit into the dogma of trinity.
"The doctrine of the Trinity as such is not revealed in either the Old Testament or the New Testament." (The Harper Collins Encyclopedia Of Catholicism - Page 1270).
Do you now agree that trying to prove trinity in the OT can only be done by people of lower than average intelligence?
You appeal to such shoddy logic / argument? This is getting from bad to worse.
No I appeal to the word of God.
Your response appealed to “shoddy” logic and argument this is how it always goes in these kinds of discussions the Christian points to the text the unbelieving critic tries to explain why the text does not mean what it says.
I invite open-minded folks to read the OT and see for themselves if I am correct. As for you can continue to look to the Zionist enemies of Christ for information about the nature of God if you choose.
You say:
If 'god' <> 'trinity' then you have 3 gods which are different persons
I say
No this is denied in the first truth I posted
You say
If you claim 'god' = 'trinity' then 'father'= 'trinity' , 'son' = 'trinity , 'holy spirit' = trinity' appearing in different 3 persons.
No this is Modalism the heresy that Ali mistook for Christian belief.
I think your confusion results in the mistaken belief that Christians worship “Trinity”. Trinity is just a word used to describe the personal nature of God
We don’t worship ”trinity” any more that you worship monopersonal unity.
This one grabs the top spot in illogical thinking :
'..To try and imagine God by referencing his creation is Idolatry..'
Hmm , biblical jesus came in human form. The holy spirit came in a form of a dove. Both creation of god.
Wow Do you not understand the difference between human imagination and divine revelation?
It seems you have might have deeper issues than just failure to grasp the concept of the Trinity.
Peace
@Fifth Monarchy Man
I think you said it best, when you wrote to Sam1528
"It seems you have might have deeper issues than just failure to grasp the concept of the Trinity. "
fifth monarchy man ,
If one read the OT with an open mind , one will not understand why christians like you seem to think that the concept of trinity is there despite what the text say together with attestation of christian scholars (and scholars of judaism).
From you '..As for you can continue to look to the Zionist enemies of Christ for information about the nature of God if you choose..'
Is the 'The Harper Collins Encyclopedia Of Catholicism' a zionist source of anti trinity?? I doubt it.
Refer to your explanation of the doctrine of trinity (which you requested me to commit to memory) :
1) there is one God
2) The Father is God
3) The Son is God
4) The Spirit is God
5) The Father the Son and the Spirit are not the same Person
My questions related to the context of your explanation :
(1) is 'god' = 'trinity'?
- your answer = No
(2) is 'god' <> 'trinity'
- your answer = No
- What is 'god' in the context of your explanation??
From your explanation that there is only 1 god in persons of father , son , holy spirit. This mean god died when biblical jesus died on the cross as there is only 1 god with the personality of biblical jesus.
Hmm , where did I say you worship the trinity? My exact words '..there is only 1 god manifested in 3 persons. In other words 1 god with 3 different personalities. Why are you worshiping the persons or personalities instead of god (the source of the so called manifestaton)?..'
This is getting better. From you '..Wow Do you not understand the difference between human imagination and divine revelation?..'
Nobody is questioning divine revelation. However you have already set the parameters of idolatry to be '..To try and imagine God by referencing his creation is Idolatry..'
Biblical jesus , a human being , a creation of god , who is being worshipped as god by trinitarian christians. Isn't this idolatry? Come on , you are going around in circles. Either you are 'imagining god as a human being' or 'a human being as god'.
Then you claim we muslims have issues??
radical moderate ,
From you '..It seems you have might have deeper issues than just failure to grasp the concept of the Trinity..'
We look forward for your explanation of the doctrine of trinity.
Fifth Monarchy Man
It looks like the sam1528 train will not slow down.
Notice how he demostrates once again a total lack of understanding of what he is doing when he quotes Rabinical Jewish Scholars.
Rabbi Tovia singer who he appeals to, believes that Jesus is not the Christ based on his interpretation of the Bible. But it get's worse, he beleives that the suffering servant passage in Isiaah is really about Israel.
So Israel has done NO VIOLENCE, BECAUSE OF ISRAEL's WOUNDS WE ARE HEALED and "THERE IS NO DECEIT IN HIS MOUTH. Sam1528 doesn't realize the implications of this.
So he appeals to a Rabbinical Jewish interpretation of the Tanak, to say that these passages are not about Gods Multi personal relationship. But he will scoff and deny this same Rabbinical Jew when he interprets the Messianic passages to be speaking of Israel.
I guess Sam1528 believes that Israel really is not doing any violence to the Palestinians, and that they are really healing the Palestinians, and of course ISRAEL DOES NOT LIE.
Then as if this is not enough he uses "The Harper Collins Encyclopedia Of Catholicism" to appeal to Protestant Christians.
He doesn't see the problem in using a "Encyclopedia" from a religion that is just as repulsive to Protestants as Islam.
A religion that disregards scripture and declares itself to be the supreme authority.
And finally he demonstrates his lack of reading comprehension skills.
He copies and pastes a quote that I quoted FROM YOU, and reads it as if I had written it.
"The train will not stop going, no way to slow down"
Well as for me I'm getting off this train since he ran out of track a long time ago.
Peace
sam said,
What is 'god' in the context of your explanation??
quote:
The Lord our God is but one God, whose subsistence is in Himself; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light, which no man can approach unto; who is in Himself most holy, every way infinite, in greatness, wisdom, power, love, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth; who giveth being, moving, and preservation to all creatures.
In this divine and infinite Being there is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; each having the whole divine Essence, yet the Essence undivided; all infinite without any beginning, therefore but one God; who is not to be divided in nature, and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties.
end quote:
1644 Baptist confession
peace
radical moderate ,
Another 'gem from the gutter' by radical moderate.
From you '..Then as if this is not enough he uses "The Harper Collins Encyclopedia Of Catholicism" to appeal to Protestant Christians.
He doesn't see the problem in using a "Encyclopedia" from a religion that is just as repulsive to Protestants as Islam..'
"The Harper Collins Encyclopedia Of Catholicism" is used by me to comment on the doctrine of trinity. Now you are telling me that protestants like you believe in a different doctrine of trinity compared to catholics? Do explain what is the difference in the doctrine of trinity embraced by protestants against catholicism.
You should tell that to robert spencer , in his face , that he is a repulsive catholic.
I just cannot stop laughing.
fifth monarchy man ,
TQ for the delightful insights of '1644 Baptist confession'.
Now you equipped to answer my questions. Your explanation of the doctrine of trinity is referred.
What is 'god' in the context of your explanation? You attested that
(1) 'god' <> 'trinity - No
(2) 'god' = 'trinity - No
(neither here nor there). I am not disputing with the '1644 baptist confession'.
'1644 baptist confession' unequivocally state that '..In this divine and infinite Being there is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; each having the whole divine Essence, yet the Essence undivided; all infinite without any beginning, therefore but one God..'.
Therefore when god in the personality of biblical jesus died on the cross - its the end of god - no more god - kaput. Why are you worshiping a dead god?
alternatively ;
Why are you worshiping the personalities of god (ie. father , son , holy spirit)? You should worship god not its personalities.
Are you capable of providing a logical response?
sam:
"The Harper Collins Encyclopedia Of Catholicism" is used by me to comment on the doctrine of trinity. Now you are telling me that protestants like you believe in a different doctrine of trinity compared to catholics?
me:
Suppose you were having a discussion with a polytheist about monotheism in the Quran and he posted an article from the Ahmadi encyclopedia or the Bahá'í encyclopedia claiming that monotheism was not found in scripture would you take it seriously?
peace
hey all it's FMM
sam:
jesus died on the cross - its the end of god
me:
I don't think Muslims believe death is the end. I know Christians don't
sam
Why are you worshiping a dead god?
me
Jesus is not dead. That is a core belief of Christianity
sam
Why are you worshiping the personalities of god (ie. father , son , holy spirit)? You should worship god not its personalities.
me:
I don't worship the personalities of Yahweh any more that you worship the personality of Allah.
now tell me how you can think of allah and not think about the personality.
sam
Are you capable of providing a logical response?
me
I think so. are you capable of asking a relevant question?
peace
radical moderate ,
Ha ha , now you are questioning rabbi tovia singer's understanding of the hebrew bible which is his mother tongue. Majority of rational persons will tend to appeal to him rather than the likes of fundies like you , who butcher the language to retrofit it to the dogma of trinity.
This is 'gem from the gutter' from you - '..Then as if this is not enough he uses "The Harper Collins Encyclopedia Of Catholicism" to appeal to Protestant Christians.
He doesn't see the problem in using a "Encyclopedia" from a religion that is just as repulsive to Protestants as Islam..'
Do explain to us what is the difference in the doctrine of trinity embraced by protestants opposed to catholics.
Oh yeah , you should now say it in the face of robert spencer that he is a a repulsive catholic. Do you also find hindus , taoist , buddhist repulsive? You are a bigot , the grand wizard of bigotry.
fifth monarchy man ,
TQ for the delightful insights to 1644 baptist confession which is reproduced here :
'..The Lord our God is but one God, whose subsistence is in Himself; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light, which no man can approach unto; who is in Himself most holy, every way infinite, in greatness, wisdom, power, love, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth; who giveth being, moving, and preservation to all creatures.
In this divine and infinite Being there is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; each having the whole divine Essence, yet the Essence undivided; all infinite without any beginning, therefore but one God; who is not to be divided in nature, and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties..'
Your explanation of trinity (which you requested me to commit to memory) is referred. My questions
(1) In reference to 1644 baptist confession and your explanation of trinity - what is 'god' in your explanation because you attested the following :
(a) is 'god' = 'trinity' - from you 'No'
(b) is 'god' <> 'trinity - from you 'No'
Is 'god' neither here nor there in the trinity??
(2) since there is only one 'god' manifested in 3 persons (or personalities) and you believe biblical jesus died. Therefore 'god' died. How did a dead 'god' bring itself back to life? Your theology affirm that biblical jesus was brought back to life by 'god'. 'god' died but brought back to life by 'god'??
alternatively ;
If 'god' is dead why do you worship a dead 'god'.
(3) Why do you worship the persons or personalities (ie 'father' , 'son' - 'god' manifested in 'son' died but brought back to life by 'god' , 'holy spirit')? They are only manifestation of 'god'. Do you agree you should worship 'god' the source of the manifestation?
Try to be a bit logical in your response.
Hey Sam
It seems like you are rambling I apologize if I miss something of import in your comment
Sam
Is 'god' neither here nor there in the trinity??
Me
This question makes no sense
Again "trinity" is only a word to describe God’s being thats all.
If I asked you where is Allah in the mono-unity you would scratch you head. That is what I’m doing now
Sam
you believe biblical jesus died. Therefore 'god' died.
Me
quoting William Lane Craig
Christ could not die with respect to his divine nature but he could die with respect to his human nature. What is human death? It is the separation of the soul from the body when the body ceases to be a living organism. The soul survives the body and will someday be re-united with it in a resurrected form. That's what happened to Christ. His soul was separated from his body and his body ceased to be alive. He became temporarily a disembodied person.
end quote:
hope that helps
sam
Why do you worship the persons or personalities (ie 'father' , 'son' - 'god' manifested in 'son' died but brought back to life by 'god' , 'holy spirit')? They are only manifestation of 'god'.
me:
The Father Son and Spirit are who God is they are not manifestations of God any more than the personhood of Allah is a manifestation of Allah.
sam
Do you agree you should worship 'god' the source of the manifestation?
me:
Now you are back to attacking the strawman of Modelism.
We Christians worship God and not manifestations.
sam
Try to be a bit logical in your response.
me:
I will but you need to ask intellegent relevant questions so far they just been one incoherency after another.
Might I sugest you spend some time trying to understand what Christians actually believe before you attempt to refute it.
Jousting with strawmen only makes you look ignorant and I know that is not the impression you want to give.
peace
Fifth Monarch Man said to SAM1528
"It seems like you are rambling I apologize if I miss something of import in your comment "
Fifth I don't see any need to apologizes for missing anything important in his rambling. Since he has nothing important to say in the first place.
Fifth Monarch Man said...
"This question makes no sense"
Fifth none of his questions or statements make any sense. Just take a look at his appeal to Rabbi Tovia Singer.
Sam1528 said...
"now you are questioning rabbi tovia singer's understanding of the hebrew bible which is his mother tongue. Majority of rational persons will tend to appeal to him rather than the likes of fundies like you"
In a debate that Rabbi Tovia Singer had with Dr Michael brown he said begging at 2:40 Question "Rabbi are you a biblical Zionist? By that I mean the PHYSICAL JEW, is entitled to teh PHYSICAL land of Israel. unconditionaly for ever.
Rabbi Tovia Singers Answer "...Then of corse the Torah has told us, the Torah has made a promise to Abraham all the way back in the book of Genesis saying that this land will be for you, not just Televiv but Hebron. I don't want to get political but of corse the land of Israel was put there for the Jewish People"
Rabbi Tovia Singer v's Dr Michael Brown
Now as a Muslim Sam1528 should be repulsed by this Rabbi's interpretation of the Torah, which is written in his mother toungue. So does Sam believe this Rabbi?
Rabbi Singer also says in the debate that Isiah 53 and the suffering servent is about Israel. So Israel has "done no violence... Israel has told no lies... and by Israel's wounds we are healed" As I said before the Palastinians must really be over joyed with that interpretation lol.
Fifth Monarchy said to Sam1528
"Try to be a bit logical in your response."
I think it is clear that, that is a impossibility for Sam1528.
fifth monarchy man ,
Somehow I get this feeling that you are evasive in your answers.
(1) Its just a simple question yet you have trouble answering. If the trinity is a doctrine of belief , therefore per your explanation of trinity ; 'god' <> 'trinity'. Thats all the confirmation I want from you.
However this is where the confusion arise. The 'father' is fully god , the 'son' is fully god and 'holy spirit' is fully god and at the same time the 'father' <> 'son' <> 'holy spirit'.
Its like saying I am human , you are human and in truth I am not you. However the doctrine of trinity states that there is only 1 god. Fitting it to the analogy of humans - I am not you but there is only 1 human. This can only be true if both of us are part of the same human. However for the case of trinity , this is denied as all members of the godhead must be fully god and not part of god. Its a huge contradiction as this is not logically possible.
(2) You quote Dr Craig's explanation that only the human nature died (and the divine nature could not die). Biblical jesus was 100% human and 100% god? That makes 200% 'human - god' in a body which is 100% human and the 2 natures don't mix.
Therefore 'god' did not die for your sins. Only the human or human nature died. The question here is that who took on the sins and died for it - the human or god? How can 1 body have 2 different natures? Surely the divine ('godly') nature will overwhelm the human nature.
(3) Bad example. Quran112 provides the explanation of Allah. Nothing resembles Allah. Going back to your explanation of trinity '..there is 1 god..'. How can one not conclude that the so called 'god' comes in the form or manifest itself in 3 persons or personalities? However you reject it on the basis of modalism. In reality you are worshiping the distinct persons or personalities being the 'father' , 'son' , 'holey spirit' which you regard being 'god' , 'god' , 'god' but only 1 'god'. No logic can wrap itself around this.
(4) Ok , I won't touch on 'manifestation'. You say 'father' = 'god' , 'son' = god , 'holy spirit' = god but its only 1 god. Logic dictates that you should worship god (the only 1 god / the divine 'substance) and not its different persons.
What strawman did I attacked? I am following your explanation and logic. So far you have not provided a logical answer. Hiding behind the excuse of 'attacking strawman' is another way of saying you don't have an answer.
radical moderate ,
Zionist christians like you don't seem to be able to think clearly.
Your latest in desperation - quoting rabbi tovia singer , '..Then of corse the Torah has told us, the Torah has made a promise to Abraham all the way back in the book of Genesis saying that this land will be for you,..'
Prophet Ishmael(as) is the son of Prophet Ibrahim(as) in the Quran , hebrew bible , OT. Therefore per the torah , his descendents have equal right to the land. If you know your history , the jews were living peacefully with the muslims before zionist like you committed genocide , drove them out and claim that the land belong to the isrealites based on what the biblical god promised biblical abraham but conveniently forgotten that biblical ishmael was also his son.
Hmmm , do you understand your own bible? In supporting such , you have broken your promise with your biblical god. I would say , zionist christians like you are now godless.
sam:
If the trinity is a doctrine of belief , therefore per your explanation of trinity ; 'god' <> 'trinity'. Thats all the confirmation I want from you.
me:
What does that even mean? As I’ve repeatedly said "Trinity" is simply a shorthand word to describe God nothing more nothing less.
sam:
Fitting it to the analogy of humans - I am not you but there is only 1 human. This can only be true if both of us are part of the same human.
sam
"Fitting" God to analogy of created things is the core of Idolatry. That is your problem you limit God to what is analogous to his creation.
sam
Therefore 'god' did not die for your sins.
me:
Christ existed prior to his incarnation, he was a divine person before taking on a human nature.
In the incarnation this divine person assumes a human nature as well, but there is no other person in Christ than the second person of the Trinity.
The man Jesus was 1 person with 2 natures on the cross that one person died. So yes in that sense God did die for my sins.
However the divine nature did not cease to exist it only became (temporarily) a disembodied person. This is exactly what happens at everyone’s death.
This is profoundly deep but not too difficult to understand.
Sam:
How can 1 body have 2 different natures? Surely the divine ('godly') nature will overwhelm the human nature.
Me
How can God create a universe including time out of nothing?
How can Divine sovereignty and freewill coexist?
How can God be all loving and all just at the same time?
How can an all loving omnipotent God and evil exist simultaneously?
here is how
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
(Romans 11:33-36)
Nuff said
sam:
In reality you are worshiping the distinct persons or personalities being the 'father' , 'son' , 'holey spirit' which you regard being 'god' , 'god' , 'god' but only 1 'god'. No logic can wrap itself around this.
me
No in reality I worship one God existing in three persons. No logic wrapping required. Just believe God’s revelation and don’t try and “fit” him to the analogy of creation.
Sam:
What strawman did I attacked?
Me:
You have yet to critique what I actually believe and have instead repeatedly attacked the God of modalism claimed worship "Trinity" and speak of Jesus as if he had two persons living in one body.
Peace
@Sam1528,
So you disagree with Rabbi Tovia Singers Interpreation of Scripture?
Since no where does he mention, and he does not imply, nor does he mean that the Ishmalites, Hagarites, or Saracens were to inherit the land of Israel.
fifth monarchy man ,
Your evasiveness is noted.
(1) Its fair from you that 'trinity' is a 'shorthand method' to describe god. The description is where the confusion arises.
'father is fully god , son is fully god , holy spirit is fully god ; not 3 gods but only 1 god'. Is this possible?
I am not attaching 'god' to its creation when I used the analogy of humans. I am addressing your description. If you peeved by 'humans' we will use marbles. 'blue' marble is fully marble , 'red' marble is fully marble , 'yellow' marble is fully marble ; not 3 marbles but 1 marble.
Where is the logic in such?
(2) I am not questioning biblical jesus existance prior to his incarnation nor him being the second person of trinity. We agree that biblical jesus is 100% of a human body and 200% 'man - god' (100% man and 100% god).
Now you say '..yes in that sense God did die for my sins..' with an explanation of '..divine nature did not cease to exist it only became (temporarily) a disembodied..'
Therefore god did not die (cease to exist) and cannot die (cease to exist) but the human died (cease to exist). Then your so called belief of god coming and dying for your sins is nothing but an empty claim. I daresay you are still tainted by the original sin.
(3) Extremely bad examples along with the verse of Romans 11:33-36. You are talking about the characteristic of god existing by itself.
I am talking about the nature of god (or god) and he nature of human (or human) co-existing in a 100% human body. Which one will the the dominant nature?
I did not critic anything? I would say you have been extremely evasive in your response.
How can one avoid 'modalism' when talking about the trinity? 1 divine substance in 3 coexistant 'persons'. The mental loops you need to jump thru justify trinity is , hmmm , amazing.
I did not say 2 persons in biblical jesus. I said 200% 'man-god' (100% human and 100% god) in a 100% human.
radical moderate ,
I am just going by his interpretation of scripture. Whether I agree or not its a different matter.
Quoting you in you quoting Rabbi Tovia Singer , '..Then of corse the Torah has told us, the Torah has made a promise to Abraham all the way back in the book of Genesis saying that this land will be for you, not just Televiv but Hebron. I don't want to get political but of corse the land of Israel was put there for the Jewish People..'
You now say '..Since no where does he mention, and he does not imply, nor does he mean that the Ishmalites, Hagarites, or Saracens were to inherit the land of Israel..'
He said that god made a promise to Abraham. However Abraham was neither an israelite nor an arab.
The jewish people for Israel was his political opinion not his interpretation of scripture.
Hmmm , how did you manage to screw up something sooooo simple?
sam
If you peeved by 'humans' we will use marbles.
me:
Marbles are also created things. An Idol is an Idol.
sam:
Therefore god did not die (cease to exist) and cannot die (cease to exist) but the human died (cease to exist).
me:
When you Muslims die you don't cease to exist. Now do you?
also note how you once again talk as if Jesus was two persons (God and the human) in one body
note
sam:
I did not critic anything?
me;
could have fooled me
sam:
How can one avoid 'modalism' when talking about the trinity?
me;
We Christians have been doing it for 2,000 years.
It might help if you got your information from the Bible and not from the Quran, a text that shows no knowledge of the doctrine in question.
sam
I did not say 2 persons in biblical jesus.
me:
Sure you did you keep asking who died God or human when Jesus died.
To even ask that question is to reveal that you don't understand the incarnation.
peace
@Sam1528
WOW you really do not have any reading comprehension skills do you.
The Question is "THE PHYSICAL JEW"
Rabbi Tovia Singer responds with ..."land of Israel was put there for the Jewish People
Are Arabs JEWS? Remember the long discussion I had with others on Arabs are descendent's of ISHMAEL.
So quit running and quit hiding, Rabbi Tovia Singer in no way implies, or means that the Land of Israel is for the Ishmaelites. He says it is for the "JEWISH PEOPLE"
Now unless you are going to say that Ishamalites are JEWS lol I would to hear you say that one.
Deal with his real authentic interpretation, that the "LAND OF ISRAEL IS FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE"
Do you agree with that interpretation or NOT? YES OR NO?
fifth monarchy man ,
Your evasiveness is getting hilarious.
Nobody is saying trinitarian christians worship marbles or equating marbles to the triune godhead. I am questioning the description of trinity (as explained by you which you requested me to commit to memory) using the analogy of marbles. Can you explain how 3 'fully gods' are not 3 gods but only 1 god?
When we die (not only muslims) , we cease to exist. The question : can god die? You believe that god died for your sins. Until now you cannot provide the evidence that god actually died for your sins. This is made worse by you quoting Dr Lane in him explaining that only the human nature died. Human nature (human) is not god nature (god). Per your explanation , you are still tainted by the original sin.
You only fool yourself in your attempts of evasion.
It doesn't matter if you have been believing the trinity for 2000 years. The description of trinity is modalism whether you like it or not. You are just exercising mental gymnastics in denying such.
I stated 200% 'man-god' (100% man and 100% god) in a 100% human body. If you interpret it as 2 persons , its still ok by me. You yourself admitted that biblical jesus had a human and god nature. That is already 2 persons or personalities or nature.
Trinitarian christians are the ones claiming god died (for your sins)but have so far failed to provide such evidence. You have had 2000 yrs but still come up empty handed.
Can you explain the concept of incarnation and how it relate to god dying?
Can you show me where is the concept of trinity in the bible so that I can learn from the source itself?
radical moderate ,
Actually you are the one running around in circles. Nobody is hiding.
Quoting Rabbi Tovia Singer as quoted by you '..'..Then of corse the Torah has told us, the Torah has made a promise to Abraham all the way back in the book of Genesis saying that this land will be for you, not just Televiv but Hebron. I don't want to get political but of corse the land of Israel was put there for the Jewish People..'
The rabbi's points
(1) Based on the torah , god promised abraham the land of israel
(2) His political opinion (not interpretation) israel is there for the jews based on the promise that god made to abraham.
My issue
(1) Abraham was neither a jew nor an arab. The promise was between abraham and god (not isaac nor ishmael with god)
(2) If the rabbi claim israel is for the jews (based on god's promise to abraham) by virtue of them being descendents of abraham via isaac then he has conveniently left out the descendents of ishmael.
Nobody is claimig that the arabs are jews or likewise. You once again demonstrate your uncanny ability to screw up even with the most simple of explanation. Political opinion is not interpretation of the torah.
Its confirmed , you (a zionist christian) and rabbi tovia singer in support of israel for jews only have abused god's promise to abraham. Now you are godless. Too bad sooo sad.
@Sam1528 I'm going to start calling you FEZZ
You said...
" His political opinion (not interpretation) israel is there for the jews based on the promise that god made to abraham."
Fezz are you really this dense and dimwitted. He said I don't want to get political when he was talking about how much land is Israel. He said "NOT ONLY TELEVEV BUT HEBRON I DON"T WANT TO GET POLITICAL" really man are you this demwitted.
Sam said,
Your evasiveness is getting hilarious.
I say,
I don’t intend to be evasive perhaps you could give an example
Sam said:
I am questioning the description of trinity (as explained by you which you requested me to commit to memory) using the analogy of marbles.
I said:
That is the whole problem. You can’t look to creation to try and understand God be it marbles or monarchs.
God is wholly unique.To say God is like his creation is idolatry
Sam
Can you explain how 3 'fully gods' are not 3 gods but only 1 god?
Me
I don’t believe in "3 fully Gods" I believe in one God existing in three persons.
Sam:
When we die (not only muslims) , we cease to exist.
Me
How is a person judged if he does not exist? Christians believe there will be a Judgment I thought this was a belief of Islam as well. Am I mistaken?
Sam:
Until now you cannot provide the evidence that god actually died for your sins.
Me:
Quote:
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
(Revelation 1:17-18)
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Revelation 5:8-14)
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
(Philippians 2:5-8)
End quote:
need more evidence?
Sam:
The description of trinity is modalism whether you like it or not.
Me:
Modelism is explicitly excluded in the fifth of the five truths. Did you not even read them?
Sam:
You yourself admitted that biblical jesus had a human and god nature. That is already 2 persons or personalities or nature.
Me:
Do you not understand the difference between nature and person?
Sam:
Can you explain the concept of incarnation and how it relate to god dying?
Me
You need to be more specific. What part don’t you understand? Do you not understand how God can enter into his creation or how Jesus could die?
Sam:
Can you show me where is the concept of trinity in the bible so that I can learn from the source itself?
Me:
I thought you’d never ask.
Which of the five truths would you like to start with? I can give you an extensive list of Scripture passages that prove each one beyond any doubt. Just say the word
Peace
radical moderate ,
At times I really pity your parents. They work so hard to bring you up but you seem to have this ability to screw up in anything and everything. You are going around in circles chasing your own backside.
Rabbi Tovia Singer didn't want to get into a political discussion but he gave his political opinion regarding jews only for israel. That is the context of his response.
A personal question. Did you ever make thru high school?
Since you are 120% in support of jews only for israel , you are now godless as you have abused god's promise to abraham.
fifth monarchy man ,
Ooh , you 'don't intend to be evasive'. Somehow or rather you seem to be extremely uncomfortable regarding questions about the trinity.
(1) Biblical jesus in human form was already in a form of a creation of god. However you are telling me that one cannot look at creation when thinking about god. You are contradicting yourself.
We are talking about the description of the triune godhead , the 3 but 1 god. If you are uncomfortable and have no answers regarding the trinity , just say so. The issue is how can 3 is not 3 but only 1? You have been skirting around this issue with no answers.
From you '..I believe in one God existing in three persons..'. Is the 'father' fully god? Is 'the son' fully god? Is 'the holy spirit' fully god? How many 'fully god' do we have? If they are not 'fully god' that means they are 'sharing god' which you deny. What is it now?
(2) Why are you talking about judgement? Judgement in Allah's court is when we will be resurrected. The issue here is that 'god' (the 100% god in the 100% human body of biblical jesus) did not die. Its neither incarnation nor resurrection. One of your core belief is that 'god died for your sins'. You quoting Dr William Craig that 'only the human nature died' is in support of the fact god did not die. Therefore you are still tainted by the original sin. You are going all over the place but not addressing the issue that 'god didn't die'.
Anything in Rev1:17-18 stating that biblical jesus died for your sins? No. By the way , rev1:13 '..and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man..'. He wasn't even sure (in his vision) it was the son of man.
Rev5:8-14 makes reference to the lamb , ie. biblical jesus. No mention that the god nature (or god) died for your sins.
Phil2:5-8 specifically mention '..being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form..'. Its human / human form not god that died.
You actually have nothing. Interestingly joh17:4 '..I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do..'. Biblical jesus's job is finished. Dying for your sins is not in his job scope.
(3) Your explanation of the trinity is modalism - 1 god in 3 persons. You said initally said that '..No Christian teaches ONE GOD in Three Forms..'. Isn't 'the father' one form , 'the son' one form , 'the holy spirit' one form? 1 form = 1 person.
(4) You believe biblical jesus was a person with 2 natures (god / human). I know how jesus as a human can die but I don't know how god can die. Until now you have not manage to provide the explanation and proof.
(5) Ok then , show me the trinity in the bible.
sam
Biblical jesus in human form was already in a form of a creation of god. However you are telling me that one cannot look at creation when thinking about god. You are contradicting yourself.
me
Do you not understand the difference between Divine revelation and human reasoning?
sam
You have been skirting around this issue with no answers.
me
What? explain please. What question have you asked about the actual doctrine that I have dodged?
sam
Is the 'father' fully god? Is 'the son' fully god? Is 'the holy spirit' fully god? How many 'fully god' do we have?
me
Again 1 God existing in three persons
sam
Why are you talking about judgement?
me
because Judgment requires existence. You however claim to believe that existence ceases at death. Therefore judgment is logically impossible
sam
Judgement in Allah's court is when we will be resurrected.
me
Will Allah create you again? If so how can this new person be held responsible for sins that another person committed?
Sam:
Anything in Rev1:17-18 stating that biblical jesus died for your sins?
Me:
Only that God died. that is what you asked.
Sam
Rev5:8-14 makes reference to the lamb , ie. biblical jesus. No mention that the god nature (or god) died for your sins
Me
Sorry but it clearly says that God (the object of worship in this passage) died
Sam:
Phil2:5-8 specifically mention '..being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form..'. Its human / human form not god that died.
Me
No it’s he who existed in the form of God that died.
Sam
You said initally said that '..No Christian teaches ONE GOD in Three Forms..'. Isn't 'the father' one form , 'the son' one form , 'the holy spirit' one form? 1 form = 1 person.
Me
No
Father 1 person who is God
Son 1 person who is God
Spirit 1 person who is God
1 God
sam
4) You believe biblical jesus was a person with 2 natures (god / human). I know how jesus as a human can die but I don't know how god can die. Until now you have not manage to provide the explanation and proof.
me
So is you issue with How Jesus could die or how Jesus is God? It’s a simple question
sam:
Ok then , show me the trinity in the bible.
Me
Cool which of the 5 truths would you like to see in in the scripture?
Be specific please
peace
FEZZ said...
"Rabbi Tovia Singer didn't want to get into a political discussion but he gave his political opinion regarding jews only for israel. That is the context of his response."
Yeah ok, only in your world could someone come to that conclusion.
@Fifth Monarch Man
Sam1528 said that at death you cease to exist lol.
I guess Sam1528 aka Fezz doesn't believe in the Islamic doctrine of the Torment of the Grave lol.
See with what ease in his zeal to attack God, his people, and his word he quickly attacks his own religion.
fifth monarchy man ,
Your mental gymnastics have the potential for gold this coming olympics.
(1) Divine revelation vs human reasoning? Didn't biblical jesus come in human form? If he came in a human form , how does that human form became a god form? Analogy of what you are trying to tell me is that '.. that is an apple but its blasphemy to think of it as an apple..'. This is the reasoning of people who are incapable of reasoning. God is not the author of confusion.
The question still remain : how can 'the father' fully god , 'the son' fully god , 'the holy spirit' fully god are not 3 gods but only 1 god? You have so far avoided explaining the issue. I gave analogies of humans / marbles but you keep on insisting idolatry in your attempt to avoid answering. I am questioning the description not your god.
Your repeated answer '..1 god existing in 3 persons..'. Each of the persons 'fully god'?
(2) Nobody is denying in the day of judgement requires existence. However we are talking about death which means cease to exist. Can god die? If your so called god in biblical jesus cannot die , poooof!! there goes the concept of god dying for your sins.
Resurrection is not a new creation. Where do you get that understanding?
TQ , you hit the nail on its head , '..how can this new person be held responsible for sins that another person committed?..'. Going with that , how can biblical jesus , a new person die for the sins of others?
(3) Your response to rev1:17-18 : '..Only that God died. that is what you asked..'. Ha ha , where in rev1:17-18 stated 'god died' or in context 'god died'? Biblical jesus never said (nor in context) that he is god in rev 1.
Rev5:8-14? Can you pinpoint where the lamb or biblical jesus died a god? BTW , is that how biblical jesus look like in the day of judgement , a lamb (an animal) with 7 horns and 7 eyes? He transmute from a human to a grotesque animal.
phil2:5-8? From you '..he who existed in a form of god that died..'. Interestingly in verse 6 , it states that he did not consider equality with god. Verse 8 states that him in the appearance of a man died on the cross. If biblical jesus thinks himself as a lesser god , the trinity is kaput. Its man in appearance died on the cross , not god.
From you :
'..Father 1 person who is God
Son 1 person who is God
Spirit 1 person who is God..'
Is 'god' in your explanation 'fully god' or 'partial and sharing god'? If its 'fully god' how can it be 1 god instead of 3?
(4) From you '..So is you issue with How Jesus could die or how Jesus is God? It’s a simple question..'
The question
(a) is jesus human or god?
(b) if jesus is god , how can god die?
You claim to be able to provide proof of trinity (and / or its doctrine) from the bible. Where is it?
radical moderate ,
At last you are able to logically understand what rabbi tovia singer stated being his (1) interpretation of the torah (2) political opinion
I just don't get it. How is it soooo difficult for you to deconstruct and understand what the rabbi said? Its sooooo simple.
You are really one screwed up person. The fun part , when cornered , out comes the name calling. Fundies in the like of you never fail in this aspect.
Ha ha , what is it? FEZZ ...
radical moderate ,
From you : '..Sam1528 said that at death you cease to exist lol.
I guess Sam1528 aka Fezz doesn't believe in the Islamic doctrine of the Torment of the Grave lol..'
Definitely you cease to exist when you die. Do you see dead people walking among us? I dunno about you , I don't.
Torment in the grave is a different matter. That is a different environment. You cannot even differentiate the worldly and 'after life' enviroment.
From you :'..See with what ease in his zeal to attack God, his people, and his word he quickly attacks his own religion..'
This is utter desperation. Did I say there is no after life? Oops sorry. Knowing your ability to screw up anything and everything ... I kind of expect this.
This is good reading for you :
torment and blessing in the grave
Try to educate yourself
Hey Sam:
You said:
Divine revelation vs human reasoning? Didn't biblical jesus come in human form?
Yes
So it is acceptable to learn about what God is like by looking at Jesus that is divine relation. It would be Idolatry to learn about God by looking at a rock or Justin Beber.
This is not mental gymnastics it’s just common sense
Sam:
God is not the author of confusion.
Me
Right
The Trinity is not confusing.
Sam:
The question still remain : how can 'the father' fully god , 'the son' fully god , 'the holy spirit' fully god are not 3 gods but only 1 god?
Me:
I’ve given you the answer over and over……..
One God existing in three persons.
The reason you are not hearing me is because you believe something like this
The father is a being like sam
The son is a being like sam
The holy spirit is being like sam
God is also like being like sam
Therefore there are more than being like sam
This is idolatry pure and simple. God is not like sam or anything else in his creation.
sam
Nobody is denying in the day of judgement requires existence. However we are talking about death which means cease to exist.
Me:
So according to your own words judgment is impossible after death.
Please think about this. Either you need to change your mind about judgment or you need to change your mind about what happens at death.
You can’t logically hold that
1) Sam will not exist after his death
2) Sam will be judged after his death
These statements are mutually exclusive
Now on to the passages
I’m not going to argue about the plain meaning of scripture. Anyone with eyes can see that person that died
1) Has the attributes of God
2) Has the position of God
3) Is given the deference reserved to God alone
If the persons in these texts is not God why is he worshiped?
Sam:
The question
(a) is jesus human or god?
(b) if jesus is god , how can god die?
Me
A) Jesus is one person with two natures one human one divine
B) The person Jesus died when his heart stopped.
Persons are different than natures
Sam:
You claim to be able to provide proof of trinity (and / or its doctrine) from the bible. Where is it?
Me
Again Trinity is simply shorthand for the five truths I posted.
Which one(s) do you need me to show you in scripture
Repeating yourself is not helpful. youve got to be specific
Peace
fifth monarchy man ,
I keep repeating myself because
(a) you are very evasive in answering
(b) you have not fulfill what you committed (biblical verses of trinity or doctrine of trinity)
Extremely poor isn't it?
(1) You tell me. Biblical jesus was human and had human characteristics. You now say that he was / is divine revelation and he was / is god. What is so godly about him? Nobody says that you learn of god by looking at the rock or justin beiber. The problem here you equate someone having human characteristics to be god. Is that common sense?
(2) Bzzzt!! Wrong. No answers from you with regards to the trinity. For the 6th time ; 'the father' fully god , 'the son' fully god , 'the holy spirit' fully god. Common sense dictates that there are 3 fully gods. What common sense do you employ that it is only 1 fully god?
No issues about you saying '..One God existing in three persons..'. My question : 'each person' fully god?
From you : '..Thee reason you are not hearing me is because you believe something like this
The father is a being like sam
The son is a being like sam
The holy spirit is being like sam
God is also like being like sam.."
That is not what I think nor believe. Substitue 'is being like sam' to 'fully sam'. Think and think hard - is it possible? This is the issue that you have been extremely evasive in commenting.
(3) Ha ha , now is about existence? When you die , you cease to exist in that particular environment. However that doesn't mean denial of the next realm of existence. In fact the Quran is so clear about the 'day of judgement' , Quran69 , Quran75 , Quran82.
There is also mention of 'barzakh' or 'interleaving stage' or 'life in the grave' , Quran23:100.
(4) You have problems with regards to rev1:17-18 , rev5:8-14 , phi2:5-8. There is no explicit statement of
(1) biblical jesus was / is god
(2) he died for your sins
You are reading the verses with the assumption that biblical jesus was / is god and he died for your sins. You are not allowing the text to speak for itself.
(5) From you '..
A) Jesus is one person with two natures one human one divine
B) The person Jesus died when his heart stopped..'
From me :
(a) Can a 100% human body have 200% 'man god' nature (100% man and 100% god)?
(b) Jesus , in the 100% human body , died when his heart stopped meaning the 'human nature' died thus contradicting your belief that god died for your sins. Therefore you are still tainted by the original sin.
(6) You claim to know of the biblical verses with regards to the trinity and its doctrine. Where is it? You were so enthusiastic and cock sure that you commented '..i'd thought you never ask..'.
I am now asking ...
hey Sam
I was almost ready to give up on you but now you have given me a little hope
sam said:
When you die , you cease to exist in that particular environment. However that doesn't mean denial of the next realm of existence.
Me
Amen and halleluiah. Exactly right
We have just made a break though. Please think through the implications of what you have just said
When the person of Jesus died the third person of the Trinity did not cease to exist.
He simply left the realm of creation and returned the realm where he was before the incarnation.
quote:
I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
(John 17:4-5)
end quote
It's that simple
sam said:
You claim to know of the biblical verses with regards to the trinity and its doctrine. Where is it?
I say
Ok the Doctrine of the Trinity is simply shorthand for the five truths I posted since you have again refused to be specific we will need to cover each of the five truths.
Lets start with the first
1) There is only one God
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
(Deuteronomy 6:4)
To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
(Deuteronomy 4:35)
that they may know that you alone, whose name is the LORD, are the Most High over all the earth.
(Psalms 83:18)
I can give you more if you like.
Do you accept that the first truth is found in scripture? If so we can move foward
Peace
fifth monarchy man ,
TQ again for your evasiveness in answering the questions. Your twisting and turning is a lot better than Luis Suarez in the Man U penalty box (Liverpool 3 - Man U 0).
(1) The third person of trinity didn't cease to exist?
You believe there is only 1 fully god (aka trinity) with part description - the second person of trinity , biblical jesus , fully god. The person in biblical jesus , fully god , died. Trinity is technically kaput.
The third person of trinity - part description , the 'holy spirit' , fully god , not cease to exist is therefore another fully god. That is the logical deduction. I really don't know how more than 1 fully gods can become 1 fully god in the trinity.
(2) Are you reincarnated in the next realm of existence? I don't think so. After the 'barzakh' stage you will be resurrected come judgement day.
You have a big problem with your attempted explanation of '..When the person of Jesus died the third person of the Trinity did not cease to exist..'. Pooof!! There goes the trinity - the 2nd person of trinity died.
The doctrine of trinity and atonement goes side by side entwined while contradicting each other. Any attempt to explain one will compromise the other. You have just demonstrated the effect. This is proof that trinity is not revelation but evolution of thought by the early church fathers.
joh17:4-5 is not anywhere near biblical jesus admission of him being god. He merely requested god to glorify or honour him as he had completed his task. He did not ask god to glorify him the way he glorified god. You need to make that distinction of the 2 so called glorification or honouring.
(3) God is 1. That is a fact. Do keep in mind mark12:29 '.."The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one..'
What next??
Sam:
The third person of trinity didn't cease to exist?
Me:
Thanks for catching that. Of course I meant to Type “one third of the Trinity” and instead typed “Third person of the Trinity”. I was in a hurry and excited about the possibility of your beginning to understand.
Please understand that I'm just a man and sometimes I make mistakes.
Sam:
You believe there is only 1 fully god (aka trinity) with part description - the second person of trinity , biblical jesus , fully god. The person in biblical jesus , fully god , died. Trinity is technically kaput.
Me
Why?
We’ve already agreed death only means the departure from this realm and not “cease to exist“? The Trinity is still the Trinity even if The Word is not flesh.
Sam:
I really don't know how more than 1 fully gods can become 1 fully god in the trinity.
Me:
The three persons don’t become one God they are one God from eternity.
Sam:
Are you reincarnated in the next realm of existence? I don't think so. After the 'barzakh' stage you will be resurrected come judgement day.
Me:
I don’t know a lot about Islamic doctrine but in Christianity when a person dies he enters an intermediate disembodied state to wait for resurrection and judgement. “Barzakh” sounds similar to that.
If so we are in agreement that the Person of Jesus did not cease to exist.
Instead the person of Jesus died underwent judgment and after three days received a glorified body as the first fruits of the Resurrection. the Trinity was still the Trinity
Sam:
There goes the trinity - the 2nd person of trinity died.
Me
Please explain why. As I see it you have
the Word existing at the beginning
The Word becoming flesh to act as our covenant head and be judged in our place
The Word temporarily shedding his flesh when it’s heart stoped just like happens for all mankind.
The Word taking on a Glorified body because it alone has been judged worthy to do so.
the Trinity is still the Trinity
sam:
The doctrine of trinity and atonement goes side by side entwined while contradicting each other. Any attempt to explain one will compromise the other. You have just demonstrated the effect.
Me:
Please explain how? I don't understand what you are claiming
Sam:
joh17:4-5 is not anywhere near biblical jesus admission of him being god.
Me:
You are missing the point I posted that passage to just show you what happen when Jesus died.
We can discuss the divinity of Jesus when we get to that one of the five truths
peace
Sam:
God is 1. That is a fact. Do keep in mind mark12:29 '.."The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one..'
Me:
Great!!! now we are getting somewhere
I want you make sure that you understand the implications of this Biblical truth that all Christians affirm.
The doctrine of the Trinity demands that we believe in only one God.. Not three
When your fellow Muslims say that Christians believe in three Gods I expect you to correct them.
When you are tempted to say that the doctrine of the Trinity entails the belief in three Gods I expect you to remember that on the contrary it has Monotheism at it’s core.
If your human mind can’t grasp how the doctrine of the Trinity only allows for one God I expect you to submit you puny feeble human understanding to this truth recorded in scripture that all Christians believe.
You are commanded to believe this truth even if you don’t understand it.
Sam:
What next??
Since you seem to have such trouble with modalism lets now go to the 5th truth
The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not the same person.
I could show you many passages proving this truth I'll start with this famous one
And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
(Matthew 3:16-17)
Notice Jesus saw the Spirit resting on him and heard a voice coming from heaven .......Three persons
Here are a couple more
In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me."
(John 8:17-18)
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
(John 3:35)
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
(John 16:13-15)
Again three persons not one.
I can give you many more scripture if you like. But I need to see where you are at
Do you agree that Scripture teaches
1) There is one God
2) the Father the Son and the Spirit are not the same person
Let me know
Peace
fifth monarchy man ,
No worries , everybody makes mistakes. However your explanation raises confusion rather than clarification.
(1) Ok , now you mean to say '..one third of the Trinity..'. Therefore you attest that
- god is shared between the entities of trinity (a third each)
or
- There are 3 'fully gods' each contribute a third.
Indirectly as in (a) is modalism which you deny.
(2) Definitely death is departure from the 'realm of living'. However you need to understand , once dead , the person cease to exist as 'a living person'. There is a change in the person's state. You have this problem
(a) If you claim the 'fully god' biblical jesus did not die , you are still tainted by the original sin
(b) If you claim the 'fully god' died , the trinity is kaput as the 'fully god' biblical jesus has changed (don't know to what) , however absurd the notion of god died.
(3) From you '..three persons don’t become one God they are one God from eternity..'. The question here
(a) the person 'the father' fully god?
(b) the person 'the son' fully god?
(c) the person 'the holy spirit' fully god?
If yes , you have 3 fully gods as 'each persons' are distinct from each other. How can 3 distinct fully gods become 1 fully god?
(4) If the person of jesus died , his soul has left the body and the body will be rotting. The person of 'the son' is kaput.
From you '..the person of Jesus died underwent judgment and after three days received a glorified body as the first fruits of the Resurrection. the Trinity was still the Trinity..'
This contradict the christian belief of resurrection and judgement. Correct me if I am wrong. You will be resurrected first then judged come judgement day. However the person of biblical jesus underwent judgement then resurrected. Topsy turvy , isn't it? For the 3 days , its binity not trinity.
I quote the athanasian creed
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ
Do you agree / believe in the statements? If yes , we are talking about 'the son' in flesh , not 'word' or 'god foreknowledge'.
(5) Do you agree that the doctrine of trinity and atonement go side by side , entwining yet contradict each other? Refer to (2) and (5).
(6) Your understanding is that with the statement that '..the word become flesh..' , you take it as god become man. Highly likely it also could mean that a messenger of god (human) came bringing god's word. We have talked about this wrt 'memra'. I think joh17:4-5 is when biblical jesus was / is alive. Nothing to do with what happened with him when he died.
fifth monarchy man ,
I fully understand that the doctrine of trinity command you to believe in 1 god and not 3. My issue is that how can 3 fully gods each distinct persons (distinct fully gods) can become 1 fully god? Nobody can comprehend such. How do you fit monotheism into such statement of belief?
How do you expect me to correct other muslims when we say 3 gods in trinity. You cannot even provide a good explanation. I notice that you shy away from the term 'fully god'.
I am not questioning that 'the father' , 'the son' , 'the holy spirit' are different persons.
You quote mat3:16-17 , joh8:17-18 , joh3:35 , joh16:13-15 , all stating 3 distinct persons. Fair enough. These 3 , each 'fully god'? If yes , how many 'fully gods' we have?
Interestingly joh16:7 '..Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate* will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you..'
If the advocate is the holy spirit , it is already a contradiction to the verses you quoted. Biblical jesus need to go away first before the emergence of the holy spirit.
How do one wrap his logic around this?
From you '..
1) There is one God
2) the Father the Son and the Spirit are not the same person..'
Is 'the father' fully god etc? If not the the same persons (not the same 'fully gods') , how many gods do we now have?
Sam:
Ok , now you mean to say '..one third of the Trinity..'. Therefore you attest that
- god is shared between the entities of trinity (a third each)
Me
No I was only trying to correct an error on your part I don’t believe that anyone ceased to exist at Jesus death.
Sam:
However you need to understand , once dead , the person cease to exist as 'a living person'. There is a change in the person's state. ……..and
(b) If you claim the 'fully god' died , the trinity is kaput as the 'fully god' biblical jesus has changed (don't know to what) , however absurd the notion of god died.
Me
A change in a person's state is not a change in the person. On my wedding day I went from being single to being married my “state” changed but I was still the same person.
The Christian God is unchanging in his being, perfections, purposes, and promises, but he does change.
He creates he answers prayer he saves his people he punishes sin etc etc etc.
A God that never changes in any way is merely a non-personal force not the God of the Bible.
Sam:
How can 3 distinct fully gods become 1 fully god?
Me
There are not “3 distinct fully gods”
There is one God existing in three persons with each person possessing the fullness of deity.
Sam:
Correct me if I am wrong. You will be resurrected first then judged come judgement day.
me:
Ok I will. You are wrong. Judgment and resurrection are part of the same event.
quote:
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Daniel 12:2)
Sam:
For the 3 days , its binity not trinity.
Me:
No for three days it’s the Word with no flesh but still existing as one of the persons of the Trinity
Sam
Do you agree that the doctrine of trinity and atonement go side by side , entwining yet contradict each other?
No
I see absolutely no contradiction.
The only way there would be a contradiction is if the Word ceased to exist or if the Word did not die. Neither of these things happened.
peace
Sam:
I notice that you shy away from the term 'fully god'.
Me
Not at all. I do however try and use Biblical language when possible and the Bible says
quote
For in him (Jesus) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
(Colossians 2:9)
For in him (Jesus) all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
(Colossians 1:19)
Sam says
I fully understand that the doctrine of trinity command you to believe in 1 god and not 3
and
Fair enough. These 3 , each 'fully god'? If yes , how many 'fully gods' we have?
Me:
One!!!! I thought we settled that Why do you countinue to ask?
Don’t forget that you already acknowledged that the bible teachs and the doctrine of the trinity teaches that there is only one God
Why can’t you just submit your mind to scripture.
If scripture says one God and if the doctrine of the Trinity agrees with the Bible why do you insist on claiming that there are more?
Is it because you are unwilling to submit to God’s revelation and instead seek to substitute you own reason?
Are you wiser than God?
quote:
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."
(1 Corinthians 3:18-20)
Peace
fifth monarchy man ,
From you '..I don’t believe that anyone ceased to exist at Jesus death..'
??. What are you trying to say? Any of biblical jesus disciples still existing? They are dead thus ceased to exist. You will cease to exist when you die. What is your 'existence' frame of reference?
What happens if you die (god forbid) after your wedding? Is there a change of state in you and your life?
From you '..The Christian God is unchanging in his being, perfections, purposes, and promises, but he does change..'
Hmm , the christian god 'is unchanging in his being' but 'he does change'. This is a self contradicting statement.
A god that changes 'in his being' is not the absolute god but a god borne out from the imagination of man.
From you '..There is one God existing in three persons with each person possessing the fullness of deity..'
Is '3 persons each possessing fullness of deity' = 3 fully gods?
How do you explain 3 persons 'having fullness of deity' or 'fully gods' suddenly become 1 'having fullness of deity' or 'fully god'?
alternatively
From you '..one God existing in three persons..'. Then you should worship the one god not the 3 persons. You are worshiping the persons or personalities of that 1 god.
Definitely 'judgement and resurrection' are part of the same event. Which one comes first? Judgement or resurrection? I believe its resurrection. Else its going to be 'judgement in absentia'. How can biblical jesus be judged then resurrected as claimed by you. It does not make biblical sense.
dan12:2 is in support of ressurection first then judgement.
Do you agree with the athanasian creed?
The athanasian creed , the source of the doctrine of the trinity :
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
athanasian creed
It states about 'the son' , biblical jesus , god and man (incarnated). There is no mention of him being the word.
Going strictly by the athanasian creed , when biblical jesus died , its binity not trinity.
The problem we have here is that you are falling back on 'the word' as a means to justify the trinity. However the athanasian creed only state of biblical jesus incarnated god man.
What is 'the word' in the context of your explanation? Is it the foreknowledge of god? If yes , how can the foreknowledge of god become god? If no , what is it? Where is the biblical proof that when biblical jesus died he reverted back to 'the word' then judged then resurrected.
There will be contradiction as biblical jesus died but denied by you that god died therefore compromising the doctrine of atonement. However if biblical jesus , the god died , trinity is kaput.
fifth monarchy man ,
Is 'fullness of deity' = fully god? Is 'fully god' not biblical language?
I continue to ask why '3 fully gods' can suddenly become '1 fully god' is because until now you have not provided any explanation. Just statements stating 1 god in 3 persons but each of the persons 'fully god' / 'having fullness in deity'. This is wholesale contradiction.
I said I have no problems with the 3 persons, each being fully god. I did not say I acknowledge that the bible teaches the doctrine of trinity. I keep on asking for the verses. So far the failure is from you. The verses you provided is 'god is 1' not 'god is 1 existing in 3 persons' and the 3 persons are fully god. There is no such verse. Is there?
Why do you say I am wiser than god? I am trying to understand your understanding of god. Submit to the biblical scripture? Where does it state '1 god existing in 3 persons and the 3 persons are fully gods'?
By the looks of it , you are the one modifying the biblical scripture to retrofit it into your trinitaian beliefs.
Sam
It looks like I’m going to be busy for a while so this probably will be my last response for now.
You said:
What happens if you die (god forbid) after your wedding? Is there a change of state in you and your life?
I respond
All that happens is my soul (me) becomes detached from my body and I await the resurrection.
I’m still me I do become a different person and I do not cease to exist
Sam said:
Hmm , the christian god 'is unchanging in his being' but 'he does change'. This is a self contradicting statement.
I respond
When I move my fingers to type this message I change (the position of my fingers is altered)
But my being remains the same
I’m still me
This is not rocket science.
When God forgives my sin he changes (His inclination toward me goes from wrath to mercy)
But his being remains the same
He is still God.
If God never changes he never acts.
Such a god is not a person he is nothing more than a force like gravity.
sam:
How do you explain 3 persons 'having fullness of deity' or 'fully gods' suddenly become 1 'having fullness of deity' or 'fully god'?
Me
again
The Father the Word and the Spirit don’t suddenly become one God they are one God existing in three persons from eternity.
And I don’t try to explain God such a thing would be blasphemy and idolatry. I simply worship and obey God as he has revealed himself in Scripture.
Sam:
Definitely 'judgement and resurrection' are part of the same event. Which one comes first?
Me:
They come at the same time that is what it means to be part of the same event.
Sam;
Do you agree with the athanasian creed?
Me
In as much as it agrees with Scripture
Sam:
It states about 'the son' , biblical jesus , god and man (incarnated). There is no mention of him being the word.
Me:
See what happens when you get your information about God from sources other that Scripture.
John 1 makes it clear that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God.
Sam:
The problem we have here is that you are falling back on 'the word' as a means to justify the trinity. However the athanasian creed only state of biblical jesus incarnated god man.
Me:
If you have a problem with a particular creed you might want to take it up with someone else. My faith is based on the Bible.
The doctrine of the Trinity is not derived from a creed it is derived from scripture
It is simply short hand for 5 simple biblical truths two of which you are already on record as affirming.
You’ve agreed that Scripture says that there is one God and you’ve agreed that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are different persons.
How you reconcile those two truths in your head is really not my problem.
You are commanded to believe them even if you never understand them.
If you would like to discuss the scriptural support for the other three truths I will be happy to.
But I really don’t have time to waste going over ground we have already covered
Let me know
peace
To save time help you along in your quest to see the trinity in the Bible.
let me give you some scriptural warrant for believing another one of the 5 truths.
……….The Father is God……….
Quote:
and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(Revelation 1:6)
To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
(Jude 1:1b)
from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love.
(2 John 1:3b)
For when he received honor and glory from God the Father,
(2 Peter 1:17a)
End quote.
I can give you more passages but I suspect that you will affirm that the Bible teaches that the Father is God
It’s been a long slog but that is three down and only two to go.
I won’t go forward with the other two until I know you agree that I have demonstrated the Bible teaches the three truths we’ve talked about so far
Let me know
Peace
test
fifth monarchy man ,
Don't worry , I am no pressing for an immediate response.
When your soul gets detached from your body (aka death) you are not you anymore. Your state have been changed. When compered to the frame of reference of being alive having physical body / soul , you have changed and ceased to exist being a living person.
Bzzzt!! Bad example in using your fingers when typing. Try getting the fingers removed (ie. fingers ceased to exist). Are you still your wholesome self? Can you type?
How can god , that cannot be imagined by man , suddenly changed and became man - die - resurrected (by what?). Its plain and simple antromorphism. A human with limitation like biblical jesus was / is not god. How can god with no limitation changed into its creation and have limitation? No sane / rational mind can accept such.
From you '..Father the Word and the Spirit don’t suddenly become one God they are one God existing in three persons from eternity..'
This is the issue that I have been questioning you. You say there is only 1 god but existing in 3 persons. Why worship the 3 persons or the 3 personalities? Its the 1 god that you should worship not the 3 persons.
Refer to rev 4:3 '..the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby..' ; god is described having the appearance of jasper / ruby. That is in your scripture. Technically according to you , you should also worship jasper / ruby being god or incarnation of god. Its a 4th addion to the trinity.
From you '..When God forgives my sin he changes..'. Why can't god forgive you without changing? God is not a shape / essence shifter that in order to forgive god needs to change.
Resurrection and judgement is not the same event. Resurrection is an event and judgement is another. One follows the other.
You admit that you do not follow / believe in the athanasian creed? Isn't the athanasian creed the basis for the doctrine of trinity? Now it seems that there is so much variation in the belief of the trinity. Which one is correct or all have the possibility of being wrong?
Trinity nor its doctrine is never in the bible. If you say you only believe in scripture then you should not believe in the trinity.
'word' = god and you quote joh1:1? Lets substitute 'word' with 'god' in joh1:1 '..In the beginning was the god(Word), and the god(Word) was with God, and the god(Word) was God. Does it make sense?
Do you or do you not believe / support the athanasian creed? It is the basis for the doctrine of trinity. If you don't support it , what is your justification?
I have no issue with with the verses you provided stating god is 1. However there is no verse explicitly stating god is 1 but existing in 3 persons (father , son , holy spirit). That is what I have been asking you and so far you have failed in providing the said biblical verses.
fifth monarchy man ,
The basis of our disagreement. From you '..god is 1 existing in 3 persons..'
Lets compare your attestation of the trinity to the verses you quoted :
(1) and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(Revelation 1:6)
(2) To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
(Jude 1:1b)
(3) from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love.
(2 John 1:3b)
(4) For when he received honor and glory from God the Father,
(2 Peter 1:17a)
You are right , the verses only affirm that 'the father' is god.
I don't think you can go any further anyway. You have just argued against yourself.
Hey sam.
I hope you are well
Ive got an unexpected free second
Sam:
When your soul gets detached from your body (aka death) you are not you anymore.
Me:
What? Who am I if I’m not me? If I’m not me after death how can I be judged? You really need to think this through.
Sam:
Try getting the fingers removed (ie. fingers ceased to exist). Are you still your wholesome self?
Me:
Of course I’m still myself. People get fingers amputated all the time they are still the same person.
Think man
Sam:
Can you type?
ME:
I was me before I could type and I would still be me if I lost that ability. I can’t believe this is even an issue for you.
You are confusing body with person. I am not my body.
Sam:
How can god with no limitation changed into its creation and have limitation? No sane / rational mind can accept such.
Me:
This is the nub of the difference between us. You believe that God is limited in that he can not enter his creation.
I believe he is omnipotent. He can do whatever he wants to.
Sam:
Technically according to you , you should also worship jasper / ruby being god or incarnation of god. Its a 4th addion to the trinity.
Me:
You are back to attacking the straw man of modelism
God has the appearance of jasper and ruby.
God …IS… One God existing in three persons. If you still can’t see the difference in these two statements I can’t help you
Sam
Why can't god forgive you without changing?
Me
Because to To behave or think differently about something is to change by definition. This is basic metaphysics.
Sam
God is not a shape / essence shifter that in order to forgive god needs to change.
Me
I never said that God changed his shape or essence.
When the word became flesh he did not change his essence or shape. When the Son died he did not change his shape or essence.
When I got married I did not change my shape or essence but I did change.
Sam:
Isn't the athanasian creed the basis for the doctrine of trinity?
Me
God’s self revelation in scripture is the basis for the doctrine of the trinity. Creeds are merely human attempts to summarize the Bible’s teaching on particular subjects.
sam:
Now it seems that there is so much variation in the belief of the trinity. Which one is correct or all have the possibility of being wrong?
me
There is no variation in the doctrine only in human summaries of the doctrine. All human endeavors have the possibility of error only God’s word is inerrant.
Sam
Trinity nor its doctrine is never in the bible. If you say you only believe in scripture then you should not believe in the trinity.
Me:
I’m beginning to feel like a broken record
Again the doctrine of the trinity is just short hand for five truths.
You have already affirmed three of them are found in Scripture and I haven’t even begun to make my case as to the other two.
Sam:
'word' = god and you quote joh1:1? Lets substitute 'word' with 'god' in joh1:1 '..In the beginning was the god(Word), and the god(Word) was with God, and the god(Word) was God. Does it make sense?
Me:
Yes but even if it did not you still would be obliged to believe it.
You need to repent of this tendency of yours to make demands that you must understand God’s revelation before you accept it.
Did Marry understand exactly how she as a virgin would be with child? No she just believed and submitted to God
quote:
[the angel said] For nothing will be impossible with God." And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word."
(Luke 1:37-38a)
peace
Sam:
Do you or do you not believe / support the athanasian creed? It is the basis for the doctrine of trinity. If you don't support it , what is your justification?
Me
Again I support it is as much as it agrees with Scripture. I would say the same with any creed or confession.
My faith is not based on any human document.
You:
I have no issue with with the verses you provided stating god is 1. However there is no verse explicitly stating god is 1 but existing in 3 persons
Me:
(You affirm) There are verses that explicitly say there is one God
(You affirm) There are verses that explicitly say that the father and the Son and the Spirit are not the same person
(You affirm) There are verses that explicitly say the Father is God
All that is left is for me to show that there are verses explicitly showing that the Son and the Spirit are also God.
I show you those next time
peace
Sam
You have agreed that the Bible teaches the first three of the five truths that make up the Trinity
It’s time to present the a little of the Biblical warrant for number four…..
Jesus is God…..
Before we begin It’s important to remember that I’m not trying to convince you of the divinity of Christ nor do I care if you understand how the incarnation is possible.
I’m only going to demonstrate to you that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God.
I will not argue with you about the plain meaning of the texts I use.
From the beginning of time the enemies of God have shown that when all else fails they will resort to saying something similar to “Did God actually say?” (Genesis 3:1).
I refuse to play that game with you. The word of God speaks for itself.
I could do the same thing I did with the other 3 truths and quote a couple of verses but since I expect this to be the truth that you make your anti-Trinity stand on I will instead give you several to chew on.
I owe Van Lees credit for compiling this summary of some of the New Testament scriptures that prove the truth in question
Quote:
The New Testament abounds with proof for the deity of Jesus Christ. In eight passages, Jesus is described by the Greek word Theos (God): John 1:1-3; 1:18; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; 1 John 5:20. Divine attributes, such as eternality (Isa. 9:6; John 1:1,2; Rev. 1:8; 22:13), omnipresence (Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13), omniscience (John 2:24,25; 21:17; Rev. 2:23), omnipotence (Isa. 9:6; Phil. 3:21; Rev. 1:8), immutability (Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8), and in general, every attribute of the Father is ascribed to the Son (Col. 2:9).
The New Testament also depicts Jesus as exercising Divine prerogatives and works: creation (John 1:3,10; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2,10), providence (Luke 10:22; John 3:35; 17:2; Eph. 1:22; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3), the forgiveness of sins (Matt. 9:2-7; Mark 2:7-10; Col. 3:13), resurrection and judgment (Matt. 25:31,32; John 5:19-29; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Phil. 3:21; 2 Tim. 4:1), and the final dissolution and renewal of all things (Eph. 1:10; Heb. 1:10-12; Phil. 3:21; Rev. 21:5) (see: Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof, p. 94, 95).
The New Testament also affirms the deity of Jesus in calling him Yahweh. Old Testament prophecies concerning Yahweh are quoted in the New Testament as being references to Jesus (compare Mal. 3:1 and Luke 1:76; Joel 2:32 and Rom. 10:13; Isa. 45:23 and Rom. 14:10). (Buswell, p. 104, 105).
These examples are adequate to demonstrate that the New Testament contains a myriad of proof for the deity of Jesus Christ.
End Quote:
This is just the tip of the iceberg I can also give you evidence from the Old Testament as well more from the New but this is sufficient to prove my claim to anyone that has eyes to see.
Keep in mind that the Muslim idea that Christ is merely a prophet is unheard of among those who accept that the Bible is the word of God.
Those few heretics who accept the Bible and deny the Trinity usually believe that Christ is some sort of lesser subordinate deity .
I’m sure you don’t want to go that route.
When you acknowledge that the Bible teaches the divinity of Christ we can cover the last Truth and My work will be done
Peace
fifth monarchy man ,
Come on guy , I expect you to be able to recognise the difference between the living and the dead.
Just how are you exactly you after you die? Can you eat , etc? If no , then your state have been changed.
Can people with amputated fingers type , per your example? If no then you are not wholesome anymore. The person with amputated fingers cannot do what people with fingers can do. There is a change in such person's state.
This age old argument about limitation of god is getting stale. Being blasphemous is about believing that the unlimited god can be limited (ie. being its creation). You are degrading god to be of your stature. According to you , your christian god is omnipotent , ie. can be whatever it wants to. Fair enough , anywhere god admitted that it was in a human form of biblical jesus?
Ha ha , now its word smitting. According to you god exist in biblical jesus. Ok , doesn't god has the appearance of biblical jesus? Same concept of god appearing like jasper / ruby. The christian god should exist in the stones thus appearance of such. Hey , this is from your scripture.
Seriously I don't think you know what is the meaning of modalism.
Metaphysics? Now you ascribe to your god having the need to go with the guideline of metaphysics? This is getting from bad to worse.
Huh?? When 'the word' become flesh there is no change in essence or shape? When biblical jesus was not in the flesh , how was his essence or shape? Can you explain. Was the flesh / bones floating around somewhere?
When you get married you are still a living being. Can you marry a living person when you are dead? Your being / essence has changed.
Ok , the athanasian creed is human attempt to explain / summarise the scripture. My questions again
(1) is the athanasian creed the basis of the doctrine of trinity?
(2) do you agree / believe in the athanasian creed?
If you don't believe / agree with the athanasian creed , you have just demonstrated that there is already a variation in such beliefs. What is that in the athanasian creed that you disagree with?
Of course you sound like a broken record. I keep on asking for 'trinity' / doctrine of trinity in the bible ..... so far nothing from you. All you have is the so called 5 truths which you only completed 3 but so far no hint nor clue of trinity / doctrine of trinity in the bible.
Do tell me whether you believe the verse of joh1:1 , assuming 'word' = 'god'?
joh1:1 '...In the beginning was the god(Word), and the god(Word) was with God, and the god(Word) was God..'.
Does it make sense?
No one subscribe to blind faith. We have been provided with the intellectual capacity to recognise and acknowledge Allah majesty.
Quran41:53 '..Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?
fifth monarchy man ,
Ok then , which part of the athanasian creed that you disagree with? Why?
The athanasian creed never mention of 'the word' which you constantly use to argue in support of the trinity / doctrine of trinity. Can I say that there is already a variation of beliefs?
I am still waiting for the so called trinity / doctrine of trinity from the bible.
fifth monarchy man ,
What game are we playing? If you say somebody or something is god , you better have an admission of him with proof that he is god with godly characteristics.
Gee whizz , all you have are people exclaiming this and that about biblical jesus. Not once the man himself admitted he was / is god. This is very poor. Your god need to be consistent.
Exercising divine prerogative is nothing out of ordinary. It can come from authority bestowed upon god (god's prophets).
When I compare biblical jesus with yhwh (from the OT) , I see a vast difference. Biblical jesus was a human - a weakling. There is just no comparison.
Tip of iceberg? There has been no iceberg to begin with.
I am still waiting for scriptural proof that biblical jesus was / is god. If you have eyes and not blind , you will realise the list you provided is nothing in trying to prove that biblical jesus was / is god.
Hey Sam
Why is it that everything has to be the hard way for you? God has spoken and you are still not satisfied.
Sam:
Do tell me whether you believe the verse of joh1:1 , assuming 'word' = 'god'?
joh1:1 '...In the beginning was the god(Word), and the god(Word) was with God, and the god(Word) was God..'.
Does it make sense?
Me:
I already said it makes sense but just for you I will try and explain further………..
Does this sentence make sense to you?
In the garden was adam, and adam was with adam, and adam was adam.
It should. It is a perfectly truthful and grammatically as well as logically correct.
The key to understanding is the fact that in hebrew adam is sometimes used as a proper noun and sometimes used as a common noun meaning “mankind“.
Take a look at this verse
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
(Genesis 1:27)
The Hebrew word for man in this sentence is 'âdâm . So according to this passage its logically and factually correct to say
Eve was with adam and eve was 'âdâm.
In exactly the same way in Greek theos is a noun that is sometimes proper and sometimes common depending on the context. So
Jesus can be theos (common noun) and with theos (proper noun) at the same time.
It makes perfect sense to anyone not hell-bent to cast aspersions on God’s revelation
I hope that helps.
Sam:
Ok then , which part of the athanasian creed that you disagree with? Why?
Me:
I’ve never studied the athanasian creed so I could not tell you my opinion one way or the other. I can’t remember even ever reading it.
My faith stands on the Bible alone
peace
Sam:
Not once the man himself admitted he was / is god. This is very poor. Your god need to be consistent.
Me:
Sure he does in places like
(John 14:8-9) and (Rev 1:8/ 22:13) and John 8:58.
Your objection sounds exactly like the serpent in the garden "Did God actually say” I already told you I won’t play that game. The Bible speaks for itself.
You can take up your demands that God should have used sam approved terminology with him when you face him at the judgment.
Sam:
Exercising divine prerogative is nothing out of ordinary. It can come from authority bestowed upon god (god's prophets).
me
Put you money where your mouth is. Please show me from the scripture a prophet who has Omnipresence omniscience omnipotence and immutability. Who forgives sins and creates as well as judges creation.
As it is you are treading very close to blasphemy.
Quote:
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
(Isaiah 48:11)
End quote:
That is a blanket statement from Yahweh and “another” includes the prophets.
Peace
sam:
Just how are you exactly you after you die? Can you eat , etc? If no , then your state have been changed.
Me:
I'm still me. There are times even in this life when a person can not eat. While he is sleeping or unconscious for example are you saying that at such times he becomes a different person?
Use your head man
sam
Now you ascribe to your god having the need to go with the guideline of metaphysics?
me:
When did I say that?
Metaphysics is simply the way that God thinks. God follows the laws of logic because that’s his nature not because logic is somehow above God.
sam
When 'the word' become flesh there is no change in essence or shape? When biblical jesus was not in the flesh , how was his essence or shape? Can you explain. Was the flesh / bones floating around somewhere?
me:
Souls have no shape ……..Persons are not their bodies.
When Jesus died he temporarily cast aside his physical body the same as everyone does at death. He did not become a different person and he did not cease to exist.
This is not rocket science.
Why is this so hard to understand for you.
I almost get the feeling you are afraid to acknowledge the obvious that is right before your face for some reason.
why is that?
Peace
Hey Sam:
I posted on this topic earlier and it disappeared into cyberspace. I apologize If it shows up and this is repeated information.
Sam said
Do tell me whether you believe the verse of joh1:1 , assuming 'word' = 'god'?
joh1:1 '...In the beginning was the god(Word), and the god(Word) was with God, and the god(Word) was God..'.
Does it make sense?
I say,
I already said that it makes perfect sense but I will elaborate so that you will not be able to say that I did not go the extra mile to answer your questions.
First take a look at this verse
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
(Genesis 1:27)
The word “man” in this verse is adam in Hebrew. It can be either a proper noun meaning the first man or a common noun meaning nonspecific “mankind” depending on the context.
If we were to read Genesis 1:27 in the original language it would look something like this
So God created adam in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
At first glance this seems a little confusing but the sentence makes perfect sense once you understand that adam is being used as a common instead of a proper noun here. (also check out genesis 2:5, 6:5, and any other OT verse that mentions man or mankind 390 verses to be exact)
If we wanted to we could even say the following
(Eve was with Adam and eve was Adam.)
This sentence is perfectly correct logically and grammatically.
In the same way the Greek word theos (God) is sometimes a proper noun referring to one of the three persons somtimes a common noun referring to nonspecific divinity depending on the context.
Now take another look at John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (proper noun), and the Word was God (common noun). He was in the beginning with God (proper noun).
(John 1:1-2)
As you can see the verse makes perfect sense grammatically and logically.
If we wanted to we could even say.......
In the beginning was God (proper noun meaning the Word),......
and God (proper noun meaning the Word)
was with God (proper noun meaning the Father),..........
and God (proper noun meaning the Word)
was God (common noun)......
He was in the beginning with God (proper noun meaning the Father)......
Do you understand now???
Peace
fifth monarchy man ,
Biblical jesus admitted he was / is god in
(a) joh14:8-9? The context does not even state biblical jesus was / is god. The actions / miracles of biblical jesus is proof of the existence of god
(b) rev1:8 / 22:13? rev1:4-5 provides the context of who is the alpha / omega. rev22:13 is the words of the angel paraphrased. It makes a distinction between god and biblical jesus. Alpha / omega is certainly not biblical jesus
(c) joh8:58? Come on guy , there are numerous 'i am' in the NT. In fact you can also claim that you already existed in god's foreknowledge before biblical abraham.
Once again , what game are we playing? You have 'the word of god' with everyone who had not met biblical jesus supposedly calling him god (nothing explicit) but no admission from the man himself. Rather poor isn't it?
mat28:18 '..Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..'
Imagine if god gives you (fifth monarchy man) such authority as in mat28:18. You can also forgive sins , create and judge by god's permission / bestowed authority.
What is the issue? Since when / where was biblical jesus in his ministry omnipresent , omniscience and omnipotent? How was he immutable? Care to explain.
Of course , god's glory will not be given to another. That is why biblical jesus never claim himself to be god and demanded worship.
Its very clear in the bible.
fifth monarchy man ,
Hmmm , 'using the head'? Lets look at the example about eating again. The need to eat exist in a living person. Is it the same for a dead person? If no then there is a change in the state between a living / dead person. Simple isn't it?
Ok , god follows the law of logic. Tell me , is it logical for god to become a human being , got beaten up / crucified and died / resurrected to forgive the sins of his creation? Why can't god just forgive? That is a lot more logical isn't it.
Definitely its not rocket science. By your admission '..When Jesus died he temporarily cast aside his physical body..'. Isn't it a change of state? You also stated that the flesh / bones of biblical jesus did not exist before his birth. There is again a change of state when biblical jesus was born in flesh / blood.
How can you understand something that contradict human logic? A god that died? This is about the most illogical thing (apart from being blasphemous) ever thought of by man.
I have been asking you such and so far you have failed in providing a reasonable answer.
Sam
I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to defend my faith. It has been a pleasure.
It looks like we have reached an impasse that we will not be able to get past unless God chooses to show you mercy.
Before I present the biblical case for the divinity of the Holy Spirit in what will be my last post in this thread I like to review the enormous progress we have made in bridging the gulf between our understandings.
1) You began by asserting that the Trinity is found nowhere in the Bible and you now affirm that three of the five truths are there. This is a huge thing. I can now say that you are 3/5 Trinitarian.
All that is keeping you from accepting the biblical foundations of this doctrine is your refusal to grant that the Bible teaches the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit.
This fact is very striking given that scripture is arguably more explicit in it’s presenting of these truths than with the ones you already do affirm.
For example:
Christ is explicitly called God at least 8 times and I can think of no place that explicitly says that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are different persons (that truth is arrived at by inference).
And you can’t get any more explicit than passages like this one concerning the divinity of the Spirit
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…………………………. You have not lied to men but to God."
(Acts 5:3-4)
2) you went from asserting that the doctrine of the atonement meant that Christians believed that somehow God ceased to exist and the Trinity was “kaput” to now claiming merely that Word had some kind of mysterious change in state that you are unable to define.
3) You are now in the unfortunate position of claiming that I should not believe in the Trinity because in your opinion it is not logical (without demonstrating any logical fallacy in the Doctrine)
And at the same time violating the law of non-contradiction by asserting that God can forgive sins (i.e. change his mind) with out changing.
Like I said the progress has been huge. Whether you realize it or not
Peace
Sam said,
What is the issue? Since when / where was biblical jesus in his ministry omnipresent , omniscience and omnipotent? How was he immutable? Care to explain.
I say,
This is just the sort of game I was talking about.
I presented verses that say that the Son is omnipotent and omniscient and you now demand I show you verses where he expressed those attributes in a particular time and place. amazing
Talk about asking…..“Did God actually say?”.
To avoid this kind of thing when it comes to the last truth I will just point you to a webpage with dozens of scriptures proving the divinity of the Spirit and let the Bible speak for itself. Here you go
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/spiritgod.html
My work here is done
Peace
fifth monarchy man ,
We muslims always provide the opportunity for the other faiths to express their beliefs.
I don't believe we have reached any impasse as so far you have not manage to explain the trinity / its doctrine adequately.
1) You tried to present the 5 truths but still no trinity in the bible. By you saying I am supposedly 3/5 trinitarian means that you have broken up the trinity to parts which you deny in the first place. How do you grant biblical jesus / holy spirit deity if there is no explicit statement from them claiming deity , for starters.
You have this huge problem. You keep on repeating of others calling biblical jesus god. 'god' can also in context mean a messenger or a holy man. Is the christian god so bashful and shy?
2) I am still asking what has 'word' got to do with the doctrine of trinity. There is no mention of 'word' in the athanasian creed. Its like saying 'the mind of god' became human which is absurd. This was amply demonstrated by substituting 'word' with 'god' in joh1:1.
3) I don't know. From my standpoint you are in the unfortunate position of believing or trying to believe in something as absurd as the trinity / doctrine of trinity. You have 2 cornerstone of belief that contradict each other.
(a) doctrine of trinity
(b) god died for your sins
What is the justification that god need to change in order to forgive sins?
I leave you with the statement from st augustine :
“Whoever denies the Trinity is in danger of losing his salvation; whoever tries understanding the Trinity is in danger of losing his mind.”
Any logic in such? Its blind faith , isn't it?
fifth monarchy man ,
What game are we playing? There are no verses in the bible that states of the omniscience and omnipotence of biblical jesus. You are just playing with words. I want the biblical proof.
If biblical jesus was
(i) omniscient : how come he didn't know when is the last hour?
(ii) omnipotent : how come he was cared for by his mother when he was a newborn and years later got beaten up and put on a cross?
These are questions that you have failed to provide any meaningful answers.
Bismillah
Salamualaykum Wa rahmatullah
I thought i could share with you a short explanation of the first point in kitab ut Tawhid by Allamah al Sa'di.
The shaykh says:
"Know that in the absolute sense tawhid refers to the knowledge and recognition that the Lord solely possesses the most perfect attributes, acknowledging Him to be the sole possessor of the greatest and most majestic attributes, and singling Him out alone for worship.
The Three Categories Of Tawhid
1. Tawhid al-asma wa l-sifat
It is the belief that the Lord alone -magnificent is His majesty- is the sole possessor of ultimate perfection in every sense, by the magnificent, majestic, and beautiful characteristics, which none shares with Him in any way whatsoever.
This belief is accomplished by affirming what Allah affirmed for Himself, or what was affirmed about Him by His Messenger (peace be upon him), regarding every name and attribute, those mentioned in the Book and the Sunnah befitting His majesty and greatness - without negating anything from them nor denying them, distorting them, or likening them to the characteristics of the creation. One must also negate what He negated for Himself, or whatever His Messenger (peace be upon him) negated of deficiencies and faults and all that would negate His perfection.
2. Tawhid al-Rububiyah
The worshipper is to believe that Allah is the sole Lord of creating, providing, originating, the One who nurtures all creation with its bounty, and nurtures some of His creation - they being the prophets and their followers - with correct creed, beautiful morals, knowledge that provides benefit, and righteous deeds. This is the nurturing that gives benefit to the hearts and souls, producing endless bliss.
3. Tawhid al-Uluhiyah
It is the knowledge and recognition that Allah is the lone possessor of uluhiyah and ubudiyah over all of His creatures, singeling Him out solely for all worship, making the religion for Allah alone."
I say,
According to this affirmation, all other supposed gods or deities like Jesus (peace be upon him), the holy spirit, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Krishna or Buddah are neither gods nor manifestations of the One True God, Allah the most High.
All Gods prophets including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be upon them) came with this belief. None of them spoke of what you Christians speak of, and no prophet has explained Allah in the way you Christians try to explain Allah. Be sincere and love the truth before it is to late!
May Allah All Mighty bless all the brothers that are struggling with the Christians on this blogg amin. O Allah, bless Yahya and increase us in knowledge amin.
May Allah's Peace and blessings be on our beloved rasul, his family, companions and all who follow them.
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