Monday, 6 June 2011

National Geographic To Axe Bigot PZ Myers?

PZ Myers’ potty-mouth is at it once again. This time the bigot (PZ Myers) has been using his National Geographic-given platform to abuse religious people of all religious persuasions - especially Muslims, Jews and Christians.

Here is the National Geographic’s horror that is PZ Myers:

All of the Abrahamic religions
are patriarchal horrors.

(Oh, please. All of the Abrahamic religions are patriarchal horrors. RT @Antiislamophobe: @cathrynfraser There's no misogyny in Islam)

Just more bullshit from a muslim doofus.

(Nope. Just more bullshit from a muslim doofus. #wac11 RT @MuslimMatters Great refutation of God Delusion “@HATzortzis)

Batshit insane

Thanks for the laugh, @pzmyers. You call billions of people "batshit insane"; I ask whether or not your rhetorical style is >> AlanMairson

National Geographic pressurized to act on PZ Myers’ coarse behaviour

Alan Mairson writes:

Like you, we’re curious about PZ Myers’ arrangement with National Geographic, but John Fahey, NG’s CEO, won’t answer our questions.

If you believe the National Geographic Society — a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization — should encourage civil discourse about religion and be more transparent about its publicly subsidized operations, then please help us crowdsource our interview request by clicking Recommend, below. (Or: Click the Like button in the Dear John: Let’s Talk widget (at right). We’re anxious to bring up the PZ Myers issue (and many other concerns) with John ASAP.

Muslim is shocked by PZ Myers’ misuse of National Geographic resources:

In summary, things did not go well, but Hamza [Tzortzis] was expecting this. PZ Meyrs, a biologist famed for his indignant commentary on religion spewed hate at both Hamza, myself, and Islam on twitter. Furthermore a man by the name Alan Mairson, who appears to be an atheist himself, stumbled upon PZ Meyrs tweets and decided to blog them. It turns out Alan has been an employee for National Geographic for over 20+ years, while PZ Meyrs seems to be a recent addition to the staff. Alan also discovered that PZ Meyrs made some distasteful comments about Muslims and Islam on his blog. Get this: that blog he uses is OWNED by National Geographic. Take note of the expletives when you read over his blog, but NatGeo is oblivious to what he says there.


Become a Muslim if you love Jesus (p)

Sexism: Reason to change the Bible

Discover Islam

New Testament Discussed


sam1528 said...

a'kum wr wb ,

A good vid exploring the christian refusal to question the immoral behaviour of the zionist Israeli government.

Why Do Churches Refuse to Question Israel's Actions?

'..Jewish Psychologist Mark Braverman uses his upbringing and experience to create an understanding of why so many mainstream Christian churches refuse to question the racist and immoral behavior of Israel's Zionist government..'

Isaiah Matthews said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Antiislamophobe said...

Yahya, add to your blog post:

People from outside have caught on!

Anonymous said...


You do realize that if this man had said nothing about Islam or Muslims, but instead foccused his attacks on Christ you would have a "SCHOLARLY ARTICLE" from this man on your website.

Antiislamophobe said...

Br. Snow:

That needs to go on your blog too :)

Radical Moderate said...

For the love of God and all that is holy, please muslims please do not under any circumstances, try to prove the existence of God to a Atheist.

Really you shame us all when you do.

Just stop it, really just stop.

I cant watch any more truelly embarassing.

Radical Moderate said...

Oh no, for the love of God, please Muslims do not talk about siceince of the Quran to Scientist.

"How could a Desert nomad know these things... They used to beleive that Mountains held up the sky"

I guess no one told this Muslim that the Quran teaches Mountains are pegs to prevent earth quakes.

Oh this is a train wreck, I can not stop watching.

Radical Moderate said...


Radical Moderate said...


WOW, the Muslim gets totaly refurted that Bones do not form first, becasue these things form at the same time. Whats the Muslims response who has been arguing that Bones form first and then flesh around the bones.

"The Quran is right, becaue the word could also mean at the same time" lol

This atheist must really think you guys are total idiots.

Radical Moderate said...

I was afraid of this, Christians get lumped in with you fools.
Please just don't debate athiests, you embarres us all.

Antiislamophobe said...

May Allah (swt) have mercy on you Radical Moderate.

Yahya Snow said...


I bet you are a little relieved as the discussion on Trinitarianism has been interrupted. A welcomed respite, perhaps?

As for the Quranic description - if you did a little investigation you would know the foremost authority in the field of embryology had no qualms with the Quran on the matter.

Do you know the foremost Bible authorities believe there are irreconcilable contradiction within - some of which have been publicised by yours truly via Vermes et al.

Quite telling your boys were silenced...

However, you are welcome to add your info to the table in refuting the atheists/.

Brother WL Craig does a fine job if I say so myself.


Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another.

Peace and love

(try not to butcher a Muslim to deathbefore your next bout of anger, bye)

minoria said...

Wow Sam1528,
I agree the Israeli government has its faults,the Israelis themselves in their press say their opinion,but the worst group is the Muslim one,better said Hamas and Hezbullah?Correct?

Muslims think Christians are for the violation of human rights.There is that delusion.

I was reading a debate between Paul Williams and a Christian and Williams has read many books by scholars who say X books in the NT are forgeries,Jesus was a failed apocalyptic prophet,etc.

But reading his words it becomes obvious he does NOT know the technical reasons.I mean he believes JOHN is from 90-95,Mark from 70-75,etc.I havent read anything in what he writes that says it is because of the prophecy by Jesus about the Temple.

My impression is he knows the CONCLUSION but not the WHY those scholars believe it.That is serious,it is something basic.I think he probably knows nothing about the 40 years and the Babylonian Talmud,Jerusalem Talmud and even Josephus and signs that were interpreted as meaning the Temple would be destroyed.


Crossan says he discovered 50% of scholars think John copied from the synoptics so John is dated 90-95.But internal reasons make John be from 71 AD IF HE COPIED from the SYnoptics.
But if the other 50% are right and John did NOT copy from the Synoptics John's gospel dates from between 65-71.Peter was killed in 64.And John could be from 65 AD.

And considereing all I am with Israel,there are many good reasons to support Israel,even if I did NOT believe they were the Chosen People or that Christianity is true.

minoria said...

Regarding Sam's support of the Palestinians the issue is more complex because the their leader for decades became a n ally of Hitler.He was their HIGHEST RELIGIOUS athority and aslo their highest political one.He knew of the Holocaust and even after WW II he was still accepted by the Palestinians as one of their leaders TILL HIS DEATH.He killed some 19,000 Jews during WW II.Read,for alot more details:

minoria said...

Regarding 1,2,and 3 John,they are very similar to each other.Scholars tend to think they were by the same man.They are similar to JOHN.Or that several people wrote in the same style,the Johannine school(Raymond Brown's opinion).JOHN 1-20 is very similar to JOHN 21 ,which is by another author.

ACTS says John and Peter were illiterate.Then with 90% illiteracy it was common to use scribes.The same man who wrote JOHN 21 could have written for another man JOHN 1-20 and then added his contribution(John 21),That's why they have the same style.And the same scribe could have written for the apostle 1,2 and 3 John.

JOHN 21 says the "beloved disciple" who appears in JOHN 1-20 at the last supper,crucifixion and empty tomb was the one who wrote JOHN 1-20.

And JOHN 21 says the beloved disciple saw the resurrected Jesus.Ireneus says Polycarp told him that that gospel was by John,his teacher.

1 John 1:1 says he was an eyewitness.And it would be by the same author as 2,3 John and John 1-20.

The reason mainstream scholars like Geza Vermes,Ehrman,Dunn,Sanders,Ludemann,Paula Fredrikson,ect reject JOHN was by a disciple of Jesus is because they dont believe the HISTORICAL JESUS said he was GOD,and JOHN has Jesus saying it.So it is a forgery of the Johannine school.

That is the presupposition,the TECHNICAL reason,the HISTORICAL Jesus didnt say it.And if he did?Then the arguments by Shabir Ally and Paul Williams that "scholars have shown John did not write that gospel" are wrong.For better details:


It is in John 21:18 or 19:

"Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted;

but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.

Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God."

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Do you read history? What do you mean by the worst group? Hamas / Hezbullah came to being due to the atrocities of the Israelis particularly their militias / IDF. Violence begets violence. This is repeated again and again in the history of the world.

The problem with christians and the church is that you lot are sorry for gassing the jews but don't want to be responsible for your actions. That is why the support for Israel as you just turn a blind eye for the atrocities by the Israelis onto the Palestinians.

Why do you bring in Bro Paul in this discussion?

TQ for saying you are with Israel. This means that 'loving thy neighbour' is just empty rhetoric from you christians. You are in full support of a brutal , racist regime whom by the way were 'murderers of your so called god'. Hmmm , I wonder what would your god in biblical jesus think of you christians in cahoots with people that went against just about every teaching of his.

What do you think ??

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

You are behaving like a 12 year old kid. You are pointing fingers claiming your support of Israel is because of the mufti of palestine supported hitler. You are just trying to even out the problem that the vatican / christians were in full support of the nazis in suppressing the jews.

This came about because of the balfour agreement in 1917 that the palestinian properties were confiscated by the then zionist british for the zionist jews. By the way , not all jews are rabid zionist. Surely the aggrieved party , the palestinians , will support the enemy of the british. This is a no brainer.

Is there a good reason why you support Israel? By the way the zionist jews consider you to be sub human anyway.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Why do you insist in trying to provide flimsy proofs of the preservation / transmission of the bible?

Do you have the 'isnads' of each and every one?

This is going from bad to worse. Christians don't have anything as an objective means of authentication that you guys need to look into writing styles as a means of authentication.

Scholarship attest that the author for the 'gospel according to john' was anonymous. If polycarp really knew who was the author , it would not be anonymous .... would it?

minoria said...

Hello Sam,

As I said before the Israeli government has its faults,it is no saint.You are right that Hamas and Hezbollah are from 80's.


Hundreds of Israelis were killed by Muslim attacks from 1949-1967,about HALF were innocent men,women and children,NOT armed soldiers,and it was done on purpose.

Those attacks were NOT in the NAME of Islam but they were TERRORIST attacks.

Did the Israelis engage in that?

About Paul Williams I mentioned him because in his writings he gives those reasons for rejecting the NT.The problem is he is closed to allowing for modification.

Suppose I were against Israel because of human rights abuses in some cases.And I sincerely thought:"Israel started it all".

THEN somebody told ME about the FEDAYEEN attacks,TERRORIST attacks,from BEFORE 1967 then if I am REALLY open-minded I would say:"This NEW information shows there was PROVOCATION from the Muslims,they were not the saints I had thought they were before."

minoria said...

Hello Sam,
Most people have never heard of those terrorist fedayeen attacks but they happened.

Sam,this is probably new to you but the POPE CONDEMNED NAZISM as an IDEOLOGY in 1937 in a famous papal bull.The NAZIS certainly understood it as condemning them and they were FURIOUS.Read the story here.

minoria said...

Luke in his intorduction in Luke 1:4 says he is writing so people would have the CERTITUDE that what he says is true.He wants to CONVINCE.

Then WHY didn't he just add a few lines in the end:"And to end,James was killed as a martyr in Jerusalem,it is PROOF he was SINCERE,Peter and Paul also in Rome by Neron,that is PROFF they were NOT LIARS.

Then,dear Theophilus,Jerusalem and it Temple were destroyed by the Romans as prophesized by Jesus,that is PROOF he was not a false prophet.So Theophilus think of that evidence that shows Jesus resurrected from the dead."

Luke didnt,it ends in 61 AD with Paul still alive,that is called internal evidence.If you want you can even apply BAYES THEOREM for calculating PROBABILITIES and see how probable Luke (if he was writing IN 80-85 AD and NOT in 61 AD) would have NEGLECTED to add such information in his book as PROOF.He would have added it.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Fedayeen attacks on Israelis was between 1949 - 1967?

I am surprise that you even brought this up in trying to 'even out' the atrocities by the Isareli militias / IDF. The Balfour Agreement was in 1917 (way before 1949) which paved the way for the atrocities on the Palestinians in the land grab by the zionists.

Starting 1947 the Israeli militias intensified their land grab while committing atrocities. Do you expect the Palestinians to just 'turn the other cheek'?

If you have an issue with Bro Paul , take it up with him.

My simple question. What would biblical jesus think of you , a christian , in cahoots with the zionist who went / go against each and every of his teachings? Probably biblical jesus has got this to say to you during judgement day ; mat7:23 '..I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers..'

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

The Pope condemned nazism? For your info , the Pope at that time was PiusXII

Yad Vashem affixes the following captions to two pictures of Pius XII in both English and Hebrew,
'..In 1933, when he was Secretary of the Vatican State, he was active in obtaining a Concordat with the German regime to preserve the Church's rights in Germany, even if this meant recognizing the Nazi racist regime. When he was elected Pope in 1939, he shelved a letter against racism and anti-Semitism that his predecessor had prepared. Even when reports about the murder of Jews reached the Vatican, the Pope did not protest either verbally or in writing. In December 1942, he abstained from signing the Allied declaration condemning the extermination of the Jews. When Jews were deported from Rome to Auschwitz, the Pope did not intervene. The Pope maintained his neutral position throughout the war, with the exception of appeals to the rulers of Hungary and Slovakia towards its end. His silence and the absence of guidelines obliged Churchmen throughout Europe to decide on their own how to react..'

Yad Vashem caption

Christians are probably ashamed that they directly and indirectly had a hand in the holocaust. However they don't want to be responsible for their actions. Hence the blind support for Israel.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Proof that the anonymous author of 'the gospel according luke' was sincere? Hey ... no issues regarding this.

The question is that you keep on claiming the authorship of 'gospel according to john' was / is known. If yes .... who is the person? Almost all mainstream scholarship agree that the author was an unknown.

Its about time you admit to facts. Does it make you a less christian? I don't think so. However you do look funny , committing your faith into a gospel by an unknown author.

minoria said...

Hello Sam:

Since you mentioned Pius XII we know that BEFORE he became Pope he had CONDEMNED NAZISM in some 40 speeches.

I want to go back to JOHN's Gospel.Sanders,Dunn,Paula Fredrikson,Brown,Ehrman,Vermes,Crossin,Robert Price,etc,this includes a whole different group of people(atheists,Jews(Paula Fredrikson,Vermes),Catholic priest(Brown's case),agnostic(Ehrman),etc) reject John as being by John for another reason.


They all think it was invented,so John is from 90-95 since if he copied from the Synoptics,as 50% of NT scholars believe,then it can't be earlier.


90-95 is TOO LATE,a person writing a book then would be SECOND GENERATION Christian,the HISTORICAL JOHN was DEAD by then.That is the technical reason they say no way 100% can the book be by the historical John,and the "beloved dsiciple" who is in the last supper,crucifixion,at the empty tomb and who sees the resurrected Jesus is an INVENTION.

That is why I little by little talked of the 40 year detail in the 2 Talmuds,something similar in Josephus(a contemporary) and the Midrashic repetition of number 40 in the Bible and 30AD+40=70 AD.

Plus that Luke-Acts ends in 61 AD.The evidence is Jesus did say the prophecy in 30AD so JOHN would be from 71 AD or even 65 AD(if,as 50% of NT scholars believe,he did NOT copy from the SYnoptics) which makes the HISTORICAL JOHN still ALIVE then.

minoria said...

Now you talked of chains of transmission.It is very good really.

Paul founded a church in Philippia.Philippians is considered AUTHENTIC by all scholars.

It has the CARMEN CHRISTI,an early creed(not by Paul but repeated by him) that 3X says Jesus was God.For Paul Jesus was God.

POLYCARP wrote a Letter to the Philippians,same church,different letter,PRAISING Paul.So Polycarp believed Jesus was God

He refers to Psalm 4:5 and Ephesians 4:26(which he believed to be by Paul) in his letter in the same sentence as Scripture, and in another place as "Sacred Scripture" (Poly. Phil XII).

minoria said...

Polycarp died as a martyr.The martyrdom of Polycarp was written 1 year after his death.

IGNATIUS in his letters says Jesus was God and he praises Polycarp in his "Letter to Polycarp"

IRENEUS was a pupil of Polycarp and Ireneus believed Jesus was God and says Polycarp told him John wrote John and Polycarp was his disicple.

CLEMENT was the 3rd Pope of Rome and in his 1 Clement says PAUL and PETER were "pillars of the church".Ireneus wrote Clement wrote a letter and approves of him.The Roman Church has always believed Jesus=God.

TERTULLIAN lived in the late 180's but said there were REGISTERS in his time showing apostolic succession,what leader succeeded what apostle.He said CLEMENT was a disciple of PETER,he would have verified with the register.

We have a copy 90% complete of JOHN from around 200 AD which is close to when Ireneus wrote(180 AD) showing Ireneus read the same gospel we have.

We have therefore various INDEPENDENT attestations that the first disciples believed Jesus was God.

The TECHNICAL reason mainstream scholars reject Ireneus' claim the historical John wrote John is because they say the Temple prophecy is an invention so that puts John at 90-95.

Here is the whole thing with better structure,it can be translated with Google Translate:

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Pope Pius XII condemned nazism but did not lift a finger to oppose the holocaust. Don't know about you , to me he was a hypocrite.

History repeats itself. Israel has become a racist state practicing apartheid. You , a christian , support them 150%. This makes you a hypocrite - yes?

Ha ha , now you claim that the gospel according to john was written en circa 70CE. Since we are talking about ages of the writers , lets just confine ourselves to the 'age' argument.

Lets assume john's age when biblical jesus died ~ 30yrs old. That makes him ~ 70 yrs old when he supposedly wrote the gospel according to john.

A quick check on the life expectancy obtained from an Egyptian census during the Roman occupation shows that only 7% were in the age group of 60 or higher.
census returns found in Egypt and dateable to the first three centuries AD (11/12 AD - 257/258 AD)

The stats is against you in your argument of using age of 'john was still alive' in trying to justify that it was john who wrote the gospel according to john in 70CE.

According to the numbers , highly likely you are wrong. Your 'age' argument is based on a 'long shot'.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Your so called chain of narrators for the gospel according to john are : polycarp , irenaeus , ignatius , clement , tertullian (not in any order).

Your justification of saying biblical jesus was god was the letter of polycarp praising paul therefore supposedly polycarp believed that biblical jesus was god. What has polycarp in praising paul got to do with him believing that biblical jesus was god? Paul have never met biblical jesus.

Let say polycarp believed that it was actually john who wrote the gospel according to john. Where is the isnad in such narration of john? For example
(1) was john around when the high priest questioned biblical jesus?
(2) was john around when pilate questioned biblical jesus?
If john was not there , who relayed the events to him?

minoria said...

Hello sam,
I will have to go by parts.First,Israel.


The British were open to the idea of not dividing Palestine.They asked for the Muslims to guarantee that in an undivided Palestine with a Muslim majority they would respect the Jews' human rights.They refused,so the English opted for a division.

minoria said...


India was divided into 2 to PREVENT Hindu-Muslim killing.Yet 1 million died.That was 3 months BEFORE the UN voted on whether to have a divided Palestine or not.An undivided Palestine would have opened the way for massacres of Jews,like what happened to the Armenians and Assyrians by the Turks.


After that war Israel accepted the UN idea of returning all it had conquered for peace,the Muslim states rejected it.

minoria said...

You wrote:

"Pope Pius XII condemned nazism but did not lift a finger to oppose the holocaust. Don't know about you , to me he was a hypocrite."

In Hungary,Slovakia and Romania,where the rulers had real autonomy the Pope used his influence to stop or slow deportations to the death camps.

400,000 Jews were still alive by 1945 due to the slowing down of the deportations and even temporary halt in large part due to Catholic pressure by the Pope's reps (due to direct orders of the Pope).


It happened once by the Catholci bishops in Holland in 1942,and the result was 4,000 Jews in Catholic who had converted to Catholicism were rounded up and deported to the death camps,


"New research has found that Pope Pius XII may have facilitated the exodus of about 200,000 Jews from Germany shortly after Kristallnacht"

minoria said...

The Terry Jones Case

There is freedom of speech and that is the debate now,not whether you have the right or not to burn a book but whether you are RESPONSIBLE for the DEATHS of innocent Christian people in Muslim countries who kill if you burn a Koran in the West.

There are those who say YES because you are dealing with psycopaths like the Nazis.The Nazis would not have hesitated to kill even more Jews(as they did in Holland,where Jews who had converted to Cayholicism were EXEMPTED from deportation) if the Pope had spoken out even more.

minoria said...


You said:

"According to the numbers , highly likely you are wrong. Your 'age' argument is based on a 'long shot'."

We dont know how old JOHN was in 30,maybe 30,maybe 20,but JOHN 21 IMPLIES he lived to be SO OLD some thought he WOULD NEVER DIE.

JOHN 21:22-24:

"Jesus replied, “If I want him(Note:beloved disciple,John) to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? As for you, follow me.” 23

So the rumor spread among the community of believers[g] that this disciple wouldn’t die.

But that isn’t what Jesus said at all. He only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

24 This disciple is the one who testifies to these events and has recorded them here. And we know that his account of these things is accurate."

Since JOHN 21 says PETER was dead it is at earliest from 65 AD.JOHN 1-20 mentiones PETER are having cut off the ear,unlike th synoptics,it would be from 65 AD at earliest.

Some Christians thought JOHN would NEVER die,and it is mathematically highly probably the 2 reasons for it are:

1.Having misunderstood what Jesus meant.

2.That the historical John kept on living for many years that many said:"He is still alive,it is as Jesus said:"He will not die."

minoria said...

You asked about a chain of transmission.In the link I gave Tertullian,who was a convert from paganism and a Church leader says there were a registry of who succeeded who.He wrote:

"Polycarp was ordained by John,and Clement was ordianed by Peter".


It was Paul's church,it believed Jesus was God.If it were a GNOSTIC Church and that Jesus was never killed because he was never a human and its founder was X do you think POLYCARP would call X's writing SCRIPTURE?

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

The Peel Commission was after the fact. The Palestinians were the victims of the vicious land grab by the zionist (British and Jews)after 1917. Come 1936 , 19 years of ongoing land grab , this motley crew wanted to have a 'table talk' to address an issue that they created sensing war was about to break and they wanted all the help they could get. Hypocrisy at it best.

You still have not answered me. Are you a hypocrite in your 150% support of Israel , the only country in this world world practicing apartheid? What would jesus think of you?

The contention here is that Pope Pius XII / the Vatican did not raise a finger to oppose the holocaust. The church in the other parts of Europe were left to make the decisions themselves. Of course you will have some , with conscience , helping the jews.

The weblink you provided just state that there might be evidence that Pius XII helped the Jews from the gas chambers. Nothing conclusive.

Out of thin air , you bring up India. What has India got to do with Israel? One funny guy you are.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Why do you bring up Yosemite Sam aka Pastor Terry Jones? This nutcase keep on saying Islam is of the Devil but could not justify his allegation. He burnt and will burn the Quran but have never read it. Do you agree that there is something wrong with him?

How come you only bring up Christians killed by Muslims but not Muslims killed by Christians?

The problem with you christians is that your theology is weak compared to Islam. That is why you need to feed your weakness / frenzy on issues like 'muslims killing christians' while ignoring 'christians killing muslims'. The latter greatly outnumber the former.

The problem here is that deep down christians despise the jews for them being killers of your god. Its the christian triumphalism over the jews that led to the holocaust but then feeling guilty about it but not wanting to take responsibility for it. Hey , Israel is in the ME. It doesn't matter if a couple of arab christians bear the brunt as long as its away from christian Europe / Americas.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Biblical jesus said '..“If I want him(Note:beloved disciple,John) to remain alive until I return, what is that to you..'. Do you know why christians thought that john wouldn't die?

Simple , it is because biblical jesus informed everybody that the end of days will be in the same generation , mark13. That generation has long gone , biblical jesus goofed up big time.

We are just speculating about john's age. Going by stats , you have a problem. The probability is only 0.07 that he wrote 'his gospel' at 70CE assuming he was 70 yrs old. By the way , he was a fisherman. That time and age - was he literate?

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

I asked for the chain of transmission of events / stories in the 'gospel according to john'.

Nobody asked for the chain of narrators of the early church fathers thinking biblical jesus was / is god by citing polycarp who supposedly thought biblical jesus was god by simply praising paul (as you put it).

For example , was john present when
(1) the high priest questioned biblical jesus?
(2) pilate questioned biblical jesus?
If he was absent , who related those events to him? That particular person will be the narrator in the 'isnad'. How many independent narrators were there? Who were these people?

minoria said...

Hello Sam:

"Do you know why christians thought that john wouldn't die?

Simple , it is because biblical jesus informed everybody that the end of days will be in the same generation , mark13. That generation has long gone , biblical jesus goofed up big time."

"This generation" in 30 AD would have referred to Jesus' generation or the new one that was still a GROUP OF CHILDREN in 30 AD but in 70 AD would be 40,45 years old.

THAT generation say the destruction of the temple.

minoria said...


It is that the JEWS of JERUSALEM ACCEPT Jesus as the MESSIAH:

Luke 13:34-35:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

"Look, your house is left to you desolate

(Note:YOUR HOUSE=house of Jerusalem=Temple,it will be destroyed)

I tell you, you(Note:people of Jerusalem) will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

minoria said...

It is repeated in MATTHEW 23:37-39.


Those 2 sayings are in Q.Check here next to "Jerusalem Indicted":


All scholars agree Q are 50 sayings WRITTEN AROUND 50 AD. In other words you have the PROPHECY about the destruction of the Temple in 50 AD.People already knew the condition.

minoria said...


It is a parallel prophecy obviously,metaphorical and literal.

Jesus would have come even at 70 AD is the Jews of Jerusalem had accepted him and they would have literally seen him coming in the clouds and many supernatural events.

They didnt but when they do it will happen.

At the same time the apocalyptic language can also be metaphorical(it is a parallel prophecy after all) and "you will see me coming in the clouds" is a metaphor for "you will see EVIDENCE" I was the Messiah.

minoria said...


Q has one evidence,that the Temple would be destroyed,then in 3 gospels it has the word GENERATION,in Bible terms a generation is 40 years,so 30 AD +40=70 AD.

minoria said...


It was not my idea that JOHN 21 suggests John lived to be VERY OLD and because of it people thought he would not die.I read it,I am practically sure,in a book by RAYMOND BROWN(the expert on John and his idea of the Johannine school).The same guy who is always cited by Shabir Ally in his debates.

minoria said...

You said:

"Out of thin air , you bring up India. What has India got to do with Israel? One funny guy you are."

3 MONTHS before the UN decided to split or not Palestine India was prevent people getting killed.Yet 1 million died.

So that made many decide to partition prevent massacres.

If Hindus and Muslims:

1.Who had lived for 100 years in peace under British rule with no inter-religious massacres

2.And on top of that,the country was divided between mostly Muslim Pakistan and mostly Hindu India to PREVENT massacres.

3.If THAT did NOT stop massacres then forcing the Jews and Muslims to live together in 1 state was not the solution.They decided to partition for preventing inter-ethnic-religious killings.

minoria said...

You said:

"or example , was john present when
(1) the high priest questioned biblical jesus?
(2) pilate questioned biblical jesus?
If he was absent , who related those events to him? That particular person will be the narrator in the 'isnad'. How many independent narrators were there? Who were these people?"

You do know that the text says Jesus appeared and taught the disciples after his resurrection,it would have been him who would have given the information

minoria said...

You said:

"You still have not answered me. Are you a hypocrite in your 150% support of Israel , the only country in this world world practicing apartheid? What would jesus think of you?"

Israel left Gaza and southern Lebanon as a peace gesture,it was unilateral,yet it got thousands of rockets and so war again.

minoria said...


Let us call it that,all the rigid control,checkpoints,ID verifications,etc.


Before they were the WEST BANK and GAZA.But they left GAZA,no more apartheid,the Gazeans could decide their political system,it was their problem.

They chose a totalitarian system under Hamas,anti-human rights,no problem but they were for continuing the war against Israel.A great stupidity.

They ALSO took out all the Jewish settlers,I think it was 30,000 or 20,000.


Thre are many who say:"If Israel leaves the West Bank and the 500,000 settlers leave that would SOLVE the problem,finally PEACE."

It did not work in Gaza,unless the people abandon Islam it wont work in the West Bank.

minoria said...

See the video and read the article as to WHY the SECULAR Israeli government supports 500,000 settlers,not for religious reasons but due to GEOGRAPHY AND SECURITY REASONS:

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Whether its the same generation or the one after that , according to mark 13 , biblical jesus claimed that the end of days would occur (in the same generation). More than 35 generation / 2000 yrs passed , this did not happen. Biblical jesus goofed up. Plain and simple.

You are only addressing the destruction of the temple. What about 'end of days'?

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

You choose the argument of 'the age of john' in trying to convince me that it was really john who wrote the 'gospel according to john' probably in 70CE against 90CE (which most scholars agree upon).

The census data we have (assume its accurate) shows that even in 70CE , your argument is based on a longshot with a probability of 0.07.

Its about time you discard your aimless fundamentalism belief of the bible and admit to it having such flaws. Like I said , you won't be a lesser christian but you sure appear funny committing your faith in a book written by an unknown.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Ha ha , you now claim it was jesus who after his so called resurrection told john what happened during him being questioned by
(1) the priests
(2) pilate

Wow , that is a big assumption. Where does it state of such?

Alternatively you can be honest and admit there were / are no 'isnads' of the said events.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Israel left gaza / lebanon as a peace gesture? They sure did after their 'scorch earth policy'. Its an indirect way of provoking trouble.

You are still dodging the question. How would you answer to your so called god , biblical jesus , of your 150% support of Israel , the only country in this world practicing apartheid?

What do you mean there is no more apartheid after the so called 'leaving gaza / west bank'? Who controls the basic amenities like water / electricity? You should know better than that.

Whether its 500k or 30k or 20k settlers leaving such territories , the problem will not be solved. Such places have already become the largest concentration camps in the world.

Islam is not the issue nor at fault. Before 1916 , the balfour agreement , the muslims were living peacefully with the jews. It all changed with the zionist imperialism via their vicious land grab. This is further fuelled by zionist christians (like you / radical moredate) blind unilateral support for zionist Israel.

What is the change factor? The zionist jews and christians. In you trying to blame Islam is ample evidence that you christians do not want to take responsibility for the trouble you have caused.

I repeat ; what will you say to your god , biblical jesus , of you in your 150% support of the racist regime of Israel? Will you just be quiet and try to dodge him during judgement day?

Its a simple question. However you are having difficulties in answering.

minoria said...

Hello Sam:

"The census data we have (assume its accurate) shows that even in 70CE , your argument is based on a longshot with a probability of 0.07."

Yes,it was not highly probable,for example John Dominic Crossan cites a book by another scholar who says in the eastern part of the empire then 90% of people died by age 46.

Yet we know Peter and Paul and James(Jesus' half-brother)lived to be 60 or more.


So it is speculated,the great majority lived to be 50,yet we know of many famous people then who lived to be over 60 like Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) and Sinan(99 years).


He himself tells us he was in a hospital talking to a man who said he was 100 years old,when all of a sudden he died.
He secretly made an autopsy to find out the reason,it is in his notebooks.
On top of that we dont know when John was born exactly,you assume it was 1 AD.

minoria said...

You said:

"Alternatively you can be honest and admit there were / are no 'isnads' of the said events."

If the claim is correct they say 2,000 hadiths were said by Aisha,the last wife of Muhammad.

Why believe her?You would say because she was honest.

Then someone who had seen Jesus died and then alive again is going to lie in his biography of Jesus?

minoria said...


It is a Jewish phrase,I think you mean Matt 24:3"end of the world/end of the age".

The disciples didnt meant the end of the world FOREVER since they believe in the resurrection of the dead and a "new world".

The Hebrew word is YOM and Jesus would have used the Aramaic word in the same biblical sense,where YOM= day and time period.

End of Time Period=end of yom

minoria said...


You said:

"What do you mean there is no more apartheid after the so called 'leaving gaza / west bank'? Who controls the basic amenities like water / electricity? You should know better than that."

The naval blockade of the coast began one year later because Hamas was elected and began throwing rockets.


You do know Gaza can get supplies and electrical connections,etc from Egypt.


I have spoken to Cubans out of curiosity.They have told me they lived in a TOTALITARIAN system where there are spies everywhere.

Publicly in Cuba people will say they support the government.


Most Cubans are AGAISNT their system,most Gazans have an anti-Jew culture.Nobody there,even those who are against Hamas,is going to say(or they would be killed):

"Most of the time we have enough food,nobody has ever really starved".

"I know for certain that X civilians killed where actively helping Hamas soldiers in attacking the Israelis."

"There is 70% unemployment,but before Hamas began attacking Israel it was less,they have ruined the economy."

minoria said...


In a TOTALITARIAN system the information you get from people who live there is LESS RELIABLE than say in BRAZIL or ITALY,an OPEN SOCIETY where nobody is going to get killed for speaking against the government.

minoria said...

Here are what are supposed aerial photos of Gaza(2011),and it looks better than one imagined,I was surprised:

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

It is highly probable 'the gospel according to John' was not written by him when he was 70 yrs old in 70CE. Referring again to the census data , even if we assume John wrote the gospel (in 70CE) when he was in the age group of 50 yrs old and above , the probability is only 0.14. Its still a long shot. In addition he was a fisherman. I can safely assume (~50CE) he was probably illiterate.

I have no issues with the 'proven ages' of Peter / Paul / James as they could be in the top 7 percentile.

You can't compare the life expectancy of people living in ~ 100CE with those in ~1400CE. The living conditions were different.

The facts are against you that John was the one who wrote 'the gospel according to John'. Sure , you can be stubborn and insist that 'the gospel according to john' was actually written by john. However you are doing that in blind faith. Are you afraid to confront something that might shatter your faith? Like I said , you won't be a lesser christian but you do appear funny , having faith in a book written by an anonymous person.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

The argument is about whether there are 'isnads' to the narration in the bible , 'the gospel according to john' for the purpose of our argument.

Historically Aishah(ra) existed , married Prophet Muhammad(saw) and was a narrator of hadiths.

However until now you cannot provide any proof , historical or otherwise the 'isnads' for the events in the bible. You can refer to the examples in my previous post.

We are not talking about the reliability of the narrators. We are talking about the existence of 'isnads' for the events in the bible. So far there is none.

One can conclude that the bible does not even fulfill the most basic criteria for Hadiths , let alone Quran (as it was documented immediately and memorised).

The million dollar question. Why place your faith in a book (the bible)that has failed (in every which way) the authentication of events per its documentation?

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

I don't think its about 'end of period'. Mark 13 and mat24 are quite specific. The sun / moon will darken , stars will fall etc. This is explaining about 'end of days'.

Has the above said events occurred? If no , we can safely say your so called god , biblical jesus , goofed up big time.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Supplies from Egypt are smuggled via tunnels. These are basics like milk etc. Tell me how do you supply electricity from Egypt to Gaza? You have underground cables? Do you know the cost of constructing such infrastructure? The construction of the tunnels will be a lot more sophisticated. Not the rudimentary tunnels we have at the moment. Water is a commodity controlled by the zionist regime.

What do call a regime that tightly controls basic amenities like water / electricity to a group of people under their authority?

The naval blockade has been there all the time. Can you recall the incident where the 'elite IDF commandos' boarded the Turkish aid ship and shot the Turkish aid volunteer in his head without provocation? He had a knife , the IDF claimed. Tell me who has the bigger stick , a person who supposedly had a knife or the one with an assault rifle?

Out of thin air .... Cuba comes into the picture. Why are you jumping from India to Cuba? You point is a totalitarian system? Israel is practicing apartheid. It is several notches above totalitarianism.

What would biblical jesus , your god , think of you? You are in 150% support of a racist regime who by the way are suppressing biblical jesus own cousins , descendents of biblical abraham.

minoria said...

Hello Sam:

If you think the chain of transmission for John's gospel or isnad as you call it is not good then so be it.

As for John being illiterate ACTS says it,and also for PETER but people used scribes for writing.


First I showed you Q(50 AD) has Jesus putting a CONDITION for his second coming.Since the condition was not met then Jesus did not come and he didn't,was he going to contradict himself?

The use of METAPHORICAL language of an APOCALYPTIC nature is ACCEPTED by scholars as a technique of Biblical writers.

minoria said...


Ehrman in Jesus,Interrupted says so himself.He cites Mark as saying that when Jesus died "the CURTAIN OF THE TEMPLE broke in two".

He says scholars have accepted it as not historical but as a metaphor for saying the old alliance was ended,etc.


It could be Mark meant it literally or maybe not.The curtain was one that separated the room called the "holy of holies" from the rest of the Temple.

Once a year in Yom Kippur(day of atonement) the high priest went in and offered a sacrifice for the sins of the Jewish people.

minoria said...

Yom Kippur is the holiest day in Judaism.According to the 2 Talmuds for 40 years the sacrifice was rejected(30-70 AD).


It was his style so "coming in the clouds of heaven" can have a metaphorical as well as literal meaning.Read Jesus' use of metaphors here (cut off you hands and take out your eyes,hate your family,with faith you can move a mountain,etc).

You can translate with Google Translate:

minoria said...


There are the undisputed letters,then Ephesians-Colossians(written in a different style) and the PASTORAL letters(Titus,1 and 2 Timothy)

Ehrman and other sources say MOST scholars believe the Pastorals are by the SAME author.


Ok,1 TIMOTHY 5:18 cites LUKE and call him SCRIPTURE.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 says all scripture is God-inspired.

2 TIMOTHY 4:6-8 Paul says he will DIE soon:

Young's Literal translation:

"for I am already being poured out (Note:I am declining)

, and the time of my release (Note:death,that is how it is understood)hath arrived;

7the good strife I have striven, the course I have finished, the faith I have kept,

8henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of the righteousness that the Lord -- the Righteous Judge -- shall give to me in that day, and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation."

minoria said...


He read LUKE 13:34-35 where Jesus puts as a CONDITION for his SECOND COMING that JERUSALEM accept him as Messiah.

In 2 TIM he says he will be released soon and get his heavenly reward,he is being poured out


It is the MOST disputed of the letters,50% of scholars say it is by Paul another 50% say it is not.

2 Thess 2:1-12 says that BEFORE the SECOND COMING of Jesus an evil man(the Antichrist) will appear.

Paul was given that prophecy by God.He was apparently told by God Jerusalem would not accept Jesus in the generation of 40 years and so in 2 TIM talks of his coming death.

minoria said...

Since most say Titus,1 and 2 Tim are by the same author and I argued it is from 61 AD or before since Luke-Acts ends in 61 AD with Paul still alive.


The Pastorals are different.That is one technical reason they say it is a FORGERY.


He could have given one the main ideas,the scribe would have written it is his style,Paul would read it and approve it.


It may well be that he was very ill,had an illness that took his strength.

In the UNDISPUTED letter of 2 COR we have:

2 COR 12:7-10:

"even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.

8 Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away

. 9 Each time he said, “My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness.” So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. 10 That’s why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

minoria said...


They say the Pastorals are fakes because they talk of a HIERARCHY of ELDERS(also translated as BISHOPS) and DEACONS.They say THAT did NOT exist in Paul's time.



" This letter is from Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus.
I am writing to all of God’s holy people in Philippi who belong to Christ Jesus, including the elders[a] and deacons."


"I left you on the island of Crete so you could complete our work there and appoint elders in each town as I instructed you. 6 An elder must live a blameless life. He must be faithful to his wife,[b] and his children must be believers who don’t have a reputation for being wild or rebellious. 7 For an elder[c] must live a blameless life. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered; he must not be a heavy drinker,[d] violent, or dishonest with money."

minoria said...

Hello Sam:

Getting back to Israel you said:

"Out of thin air .... Cuba comes into the picture. Why are you jumping from India to Cuba? You point is a totalitarian system? Israel is practicing apartheid. It is several notches above totalitarianism.

What would biblical jesus , your god , think of you? You are in 150% support of a racist regime who by the way are suppressing biblical jesus own cousins , descendents of biblical abraham."

Let's put Israel as semi-totalitarian.SHLOMO SAND recently wrote a book (Invention of the Jewish People)in Hebrew where he says:

1.The great majority of Jews descend from converts and have no or little Jewish blood.

2.The Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Hebrews,though mixed with other groups.

3.There was never an explusion of the Jews from Palestine by the Romans 2,000 years ago,it is a myth.

See him saying it here:


He can say THAT in Israel and not get killed.In a Muslim country a professor can not write a book saying:

"The great majority of Palestinians descend from Arabs who came in the 1850's from Syria and Egypt".

minoria said...


It is different from the Synoptics in style,Jesus gives 3 SPEECHES using a MYSTICAL style.

Other parts are short,Jesus talking almost exactly like in the Synoptics.


All 4 gospels have this that scholars believe are by Jesus or probably by him:

1.SON OF MAN SAYINGS:50 in all,they are:

In Q,Mark,John,and the Lucan material and the Matthean material

2.KINGDOM OF GOD sayings:scholars are practically unanimous they are from Jesus.

3.I SAY TO YOU sayings:almost from Jesus,or at least most are from him,in all 4 gospels.


It talks of the Father-Son relation and is exactly like what you find in John.Q is from 50 AD.

So John is not pure invention,Jesus did on occasion talk like that.

minoria said...


Matthew 11:25-27/Luke 10:21-22


The Essenes who existed till 70 AD had a style similar to John's,mystical.That proves such a STYLE EXISTED in Jesus' time in Palestine.

"I AM" SAYINGS(here they are)

One argument is that John has invented sayings of Jesus.The I AM sayings:

"I am the bread of life"
"I am the light of the world"
"I am the gate"
"I am the good shepherd"
"I am the resurrection and the life"
"I am the way and the truth and life"
"I am the vine"


"Before Abraham was I AM"

minoria said...


Really,that shows Jesus in the earliest book uses the I AM.

It is in MARK 6:45-52("Dont be afraid,I AM (ego eimi)"

Repeated in MATT 14:22-33 and JOHN 6:16-20.


There are "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" and "Son of Man has the power to forgive sins."

minoria said...


So you will know the exact situation,if you ever hear a debate and X says:"Jesus in John has I AM sayings which are ABSENT from the earlier gospels.that shows they are inventions"

then you now know it is not correct.Or:

"John is TOTALLY different from the Synoptics"

Yet John has Son of Man sayings,Kingdom of God and I say to You sayings just like the other 3.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

From you '..If you think the chain of transmission for John's gospel or isnad as you call it is not good then so be it..'.

I did not say the 'isnad' for 'the gospel according to john' is not good. There is no 'isnad' to begin with. Now you are telling me regardless of whether there is any 'isnad' or not , you are committed to your belief in the gospels because of your blind faith. What has happened to your reasoning?

If you claim that John / Peter used scribes as they were illiterate , who were their scribes? We muslims know who were the scribes for Prophet Muhammad(saw).

The condition for biblical jesus as in luk13:34-35 being '..It is that the JEWS of JERUSALEM ACCEPT Jesus as the MESSIAH:..'. Looks like John Gill disagree with you.

'..on occasion of Christ's having mentioned the perishing of a prophet in Jerusalem; where many had been killed and put to death, in one way or another, and particularly in the following: ..'
John Gill Luk13:34

John Gill also propose another interpretation to luk13:35 ; '..that when Christ shall come a second time, and every eye shall see him, these Jews, among the rest, shall behold him, whom they have pierced, and mourn; and wish themselves among those, that shall receive him..'
John Gill Luk13:35

The alternate makes more sense. However it still does not explain that biblical jesus , your god , goofed up in his so called prediction of the end of days in the same generation

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Israel is a regime practicing apartheid. Such practice is several notches worse than totalitarianism.

I am curious to know the reason of your 150% unilateral support of the racist regime. Is it because of guilt but not wanting to be responsible? I am very sure biblical jesus , your so called god , will curse the zionist jews / christians as they just go against each and every one of his teachings.

You are going around in circles. The current problem is due to
(1) The racist practice of the Israeli regime
(2) The land grab by the zionist jews with the zionist christians providing 150% support.

Muslims were never the problem as we were coexisting peacefully with the jews prior to 1916.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Can you explain how 'I AM' can mean biblical jesus was / is god? I have never been convinced of this argument. 'I AM' ... so what??

If he says 'I AM' son of man. That means he was / is human.

The mental gymnastics you christians have to employ to try to console yourselves that biblical jesus was / is god is simply amazing.

minoria said...

Hello Sam:
Just reading the text it is very clear:

Luke 13:35:" you(Jerusalem) will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’"


Even non-Christian scholars,skeptics say that the I AM sayings are about Jesus claiming Deity.

I AM is one of the 2 names of God,it is in EXODUS 3:13-15.Bart Ehrman,I think it is in his Misquoting Jesus says "Before Abraham was I AM" means Jesus said he was God.

minoria said...

I agree with you some of the I AM saying do not mean divinity like:

"I am the bread of life"
"I am the light of the world"
"I am the gate"
"I am the good shepherd"
"I am the vine"


"Before Abraham was I AM"
"I am the resurrection and the life"
"I am the way and the truth and life"

Certainly do.
Also I mentioned Jesus walking on water and saying"Do not be afraid I AM" in John,Matthew and Mark.

The ORIGINAL Greek is Ego eimi,I AM but thye translate it as "It is I,it is me".

minoria said...


In MARK in his trial Jesus is asked to identified himself.He says EGO EIMI-I AM.

In LUKE it is:"You said it I AM".

MATHHEW did not like to say God,though he sometimes does and every time you have the words KINGDOM OF GOD he changed it to KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.


MATT read Mark he changed the answer of I AM to simple "You said it".That shows he understood it to mean a claim to being God.

minoria said...


In Jeremiah it says so.Jews then and today NEVER called their children ELI-YAHWEH or ZAKARI-YAHWEH but used only a portion of God's names like in ELijah or Zachariyah.

minoria said...

To say a man or woman is Yahweh this or Yahweh that is to say he is God.


You do know that all those controls in the West Bank are to prevent terrorist attacks.

In SOUTH AFRICA the controls were done for racist reasons,not because black people were blowing themselves up killing white people.



It was the covert evacuation of Ethiopian Jews (known as the "Beta Israel" community or "Falashas") from Sudan during a famine in 1984. The operation, named after the biblical figure Moses, was a cooperative effort between the Israel Defense Forces, the Central Intelligence Agency, the United States embassy in Khartoum, mercenaries, and Sudanese state security forces.
Beginning November 21, 1984, it involved the air transport 8,000 Ethiopian Jews from Sudan directly to Israel, ending January 5, 1985. Thousands of Beta Israel had fled Ethiopia on foot for refugee camps in Sudan. It is estimated as many as 4,000 died during the trek. Sudan secretly allowed Israel to evacuate the refugees. Operation Moses stopped on Friday January 5, 1985 after then-PM Shimon Peres held a press conference confirming the airlift while asking people not to talk about it. Sudan killed the airlift moments after Peres stopped speaking. Once the story broke in the media, Arab countries pressured Sudan to stop the airlift. Some 1,000 Ethiopian Jews were left behind. Many were evacuated later in the U.S.-led Operation Joshua.

minoria said...


Operation Solomon was a 1991 covert Israeli military operation to take Ethiopian Jews to Israel.
Several Jewish organizations, including the state of Israel, were concerned about the well-being of the sizable population of Ethiopian Jews, known as Beta Israel, residing in Ethiopia.
In 36 hours, non-stop flights of 34 Israeli aircraftransported 14,325 Ethiopian Jews to Israel.

minoria said...


The most radical NT group is the Jesus Seminar but even THEY accept the HISTORICAL Jesus did SOMETHING that people took to be miraculous.

The Jesus Seminar does not for a minute accept that Jesus did real miracles but that he had the ability to help people with suggestion.Here in the avraidire article you have about it and Rasputin,Elizabeth barret-Browning,Josephus,placebo,etc.
It can be translated with GOOGLE TRANSLATE.The article details what the Jesus Seminar refers to exactly:

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

You have not answered my question. We have now established that the bible , per our discussion 'the gospel according to john' has no signature .... written by an unknown with no 'isnads'. How do you commit your faith to such book? Is it because your forefathers were christians and you are just keeping to the tradition? The Quran has a description for people like you ; Quran43:23 '..Just in the same way, whenever We sent a Warner before thee to any people, the wealthy ones among them said: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we will certainly follow in their footsteps."..'

I am really curious of why you are committing your faith in books written by unknown authors / people who don't know biblical jesus in person. There are no 'isnads' in such documentation.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

Fair enough you disagree with 'John Gill commentary' of luk13:35.I have no issues with that but you need to keep in mind that there is a alternate interpretation to luk13:35.

Your argument of '..Jesus would have come even at 70 AD is the Jews of Jerusalem had accepted him and they would have literally seen him coming in the clouds and many supernatural events..' ... is very shaky.

Are you trying to tell me after the departure of biblical jesus not even one jew in jerusalem accepted biblical jesus per the teaching of his apostles? I find it hard to believe. Acts 2 provides the narration of biblical peter addressing the crowd in jerusalem. Don't tell me not one among the crowd accepted the teachings of the apostles.

With that fact , it is clear biblical jesus , your god , goof up big time in mark13 about the end of days in the same generation. For your interest , >35 generations / >2000 yrs have come and gone ..... still nothing.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

It is only your understanding as a fundamental christian that 'I AM' means biblical jesus confessing himself to be god.

'Before Abraham was I AM'? Biblical jesus in god's foreknowledge is a much more accurate interpretation. This is supported by the following verses ;
acts2:23 '..This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge..'
1pet1:20 '..He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake..'
It clearly states of biblical jesus in god's foreknowledge.

"I am the resurrection and the life"
"I am the way and the truth and life"
None of the above 2 quotes even come close to biblical jesus claiming deity / god. He was / is the messiah , its is through his 'sunnah' such is obtained.

The jewish priest(s) had an axe to grind with biblical jesus. The only way they could get rid of him was to pin him down with an allegation that biblical jesus claimed deity when he said 'I AM'. Thats all. You need to look into the context of their argument and intention.

Biblical jesus walked on water - proof he was / is god? If he lived in the time of biblical moses , he need not do that. Biblical moses would have parted the water for him. Each messenger of god has their own unique miracles that they performed with god's permission.

sam1528 said...

minoria ,

You still have not answered my question. What is the reason for your 150% unilateral support for the racist regime of Israel? The zionist jews / christians broke just about each and every teaching of your supposedly god in biblical jesus. I believe if biblical jesus is around this time , all of them would have gotten a tight slap in addition to him cursing them.

What do you mean terrorist attacks? These were / are reprisals for the Israeli terrorist attacks which by the way have been going on since 1916.

Operation Solomon / Moses? Its just the Israeli regime airlifting the ethiopian jews to Israel. This again reveal their racist nature. Why can't they just help the starving ethiopians?

Wonder how are the ethiopian jews treated in Israel? Wonder if the following is true?
Racist birth control? Claims Israel culling Ethiopian Jews
In the end , the skin colour has the final say .... nevertheless they are jews .... 3rd class jews perhaps?