Monday, 25 July 2011

Did The Prophet Know He Was Going to Heaven? The Qur'an Gives The Answer!

Time and again we've been faced with strange, inane claims made by Christian missionaries with clear intentions to defame Islam. Within the last year Nabeel Qureshi claimed that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was oblivious to whether he'd be granted entry into heaven or not. He alleges that there exists a dissatisfaction in comfort that comes with Islam, because one ultimately does not know his end, including the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).




Unfortunately Nabeel's babble comes to a direct halt when faced with one of the most beautiful Surah's in the Quran: Surah Al-Kauther (or Al-Kawther). We have taken the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir and reproduced it below from IslamBasics, which clearly indicate the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) will reside in heaven, no questions asked:

The Tafsir of Surat Al-Kawthar
(Chapter - 108)
Which was revealed in Al-Madinah and They also say in Makkah

[بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ ]
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
[إِنَّآ أَعْطَيْنَـكَ الْكَوْثَرَ - فَصَلِّ لِرَبِّكَ وَانْحَرْ - إِنَّ شَانِئَكَ هُوَ الاٌّبْتَرُ ]
(1. Verily, We have granted you Al-Kawthar.) (2. Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice.) (3. For he who hates you, he will be cut off.)

Muslim, Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i, all recorded from Anas[1] that he said, "While we were with the Messenger of Allah in the Masjid, he dozed off into a slumber. Then he lifted his head smiling. We said, `O Messenger of Allah! What has caused you to laugh' He said,
«لَقَدْ أُنْزِلَتْ عَلَيَّ آنِفًا سُورَة»
(Verily, a Surah was just revealed to me.)
Then he recited,
[إِنَّآ أَعْطَيْنَـكَ الْكَوْثَرَ - فَصَلِّ لِرَبِّكَ وَانْحَرْ - إِنَّ شَانِئَكَ هُوَ الاٌّبْتَرُ ]
(Verily, We have granted you Al-Kawthar. Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice. For he who hates you, he will be cut off.)
Then he said,
«أَتَدْرُونَ مَا الْكَوْثَرُ؟»
(Do you all know what is Al-Kawthar)

We said, `Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said,

«فَإِنَّهُ نَهَرٌ وَعَدَنِيهِ رَبِّي عَزَّ وَجَلَّ،عَلَيْهِ خَيْرٌ كَثِيرٌ، هُوَ حَوْضٌ تَرِدُ عَلَيْهِ أُمَّتِي يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ، آنِيَتُهُ عَدَدُ النُّجُومِ فِي السَّمَاءِ، فَيُخْتَلَجُ الْعَبْدُ مِنْهُمْ 
فَأَقُولُ: رَبِّ إِنَّهُ مِنْ أُمَّتِي، فَيَقُولُ: إِنَّكَ لَا تَدْرِي مَا أَحْدَثَ بَعْدَك»


(Verily, it is a river that my Lord, the Mighty and Majestic, has promised me and it has abundant goodness. It is a pond where my Ummah will be brought to on the Day of Judgement. Its containers are as numerous as the stars in the sky. Then a servant of Allah from among them will be (prevented from it) and I will say: "O Lord! Verily, he is from my Ummah (followers).'' Then He (Allah) will say: "Verily, you do not know what he introduced (or innovated) after you.)''[2]

This is the wording of Muslim. Ahmad recorded this Hadith from Muhammad bin Fudayl, who reported from Al-Mukhtar bin Fulful, who reported it from Anas bin Malik.[3]

 Imam Ahmad also recorded from Anas that the Messenger of Allah said,

«دَخَلْتُ الْجَنَّةَ فَإِذَا أَنَا بِنَهْرٍ حَافَتَاهُ خِيَامُ اللُّؤْلُؤِ، فَضَرَبْتُ بِيَدِي إِلَى مَا يَجْرِي فِيهِ الْمَاءُ، فَإِذَا مِسْكٌ أَذْفَرُ، قُلْتُ: مَاهَذَا يَا جِبْرِيلُ؟ قَالَ: هَذَا الْكَوْثَرُ الَّذِي أَعْطَاكَهُ اللهُ عَزَّ وَجَل»


(I entered Paradise and I came to a river whose banks had tents made of pearls. So I thrust my hand into its flowing water and found that it was the strongest (smell) of musk. So I asked, "O Jibril! What is this'' He replied, "This is Al-Kawthar which Allah, the Mighty and Majestic has given you.'')[4]


Al-Bukhari recorded this in his Sahih, and so did Muslim, on the authority of Anas bin Malik. In their version Anas said, "When the Prophet was taken up to the heaven, he said,

«أَتَيْتُ عَلَى نَهْرٍ حَافَتَاهُ قِبَابُ اللُّؤْلُؤِ الْمُجَوَّفِ فَقُلْتُ: مَا هَذَا يَا جِبْرِيلُ؟ قَالَ: هَذَا الْكَوْثَر»


(I came to a river whose banks had domes of hollowed pearl. I said: "O Jibril! What is this'' He replied: "This is Al-Kawthar.'')''[5] This is the wording of Al-Bukhari.

Ahmad recorded from Anas that a man said, "O Messenger of Allah! What is Al-Kawthar'' He replied,


«هُوَ نَهْرٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ أَعْطَانِيهِ رَبِّي، لَهُوَ أَشَدُّ بَيَاضًا مِنَ اللَّبَنِ، وَأَحْلَى مِنَ الْعَسَلِ، فِيهِ طُيُورٌ أَعْنَاقُهَا كَأَعْنَاقِ الْجُزُر»


(It is a river in Paradise which my Lord has given me. It is whiter than milk and sweeter than honey. There are birds in it whose necks are (long) like carrots.)

`Umar said, "O Messenger of Allah! Verily, they (the birds) will be beautiful.'' The Prophet replied,


«آكِلُهَا أَنْعَمُ مِنْهَا يَا عُمَر»


(The one who eats them (i.e., the people of Paradise) will be more beautiful than them, O `Umar.)[6]

Al-Bukhari recorded from Sa`id bin Jubayr that Ibn `Abbas said about Al-Kawthar, "It is the good which Allah gave to him (the Prophet).'' Abu Bishr said, "I said to Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Verily, people are claiming that it is a river in Paradise.''' Sa`id replied, `The river which is in Paradise is part of the goodness which Allah gave him.'''[7]


Al-Bukhari also recorded from Sa`id bin Jubayr that Ibn `Abbas said, "Al-Kawthar is the abundant goodness.'' This explanation includes the river and other things as well. Because the word Al-Kawthar comes from the word Kathrah (abundance) and it (Al-Kawthar) linguistically means an abundance of goodness. So from this goodness is the river (in Paradise).
Imam Ahmad recorded from Ibn `Umar that the Messenger of Allah said,
«الْكَوْثَرُ نَهْرٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ حَافَتَاهُ مِنْ ذَهَبٍ، وَالْمَاءُ يَجْرِي عَلَى اللُّؤْلُؤِ، وَمَاؤُهُ أَشَدُّ بَيَاضًا مِنَ اللَّبَنِ، وَأَحْلَى مِنَ الْعَسَل»
(Al-Kawthar is a river in Paradise whose banks are of gold and it runs over pearls. Its water is whiter than milk and sweeter than honey.)[8]
This Hadith was recorded in this manner by At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir. At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih.''[9]
Then Allah says,
[فَصَلِّ لِرَبِّكَ وَانْحَرْ ]
(Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice.)
meaning, `just as We have given you the abundant goodness in this life and the Hereafter -- and from that is the river that has been described previously -- then make your obligatory and optional prayer, and your sacrifice (of animals) solely and sincerely for your Lord. Woship Him alone and do not associate any partner with him. And sacrifice pronouncing His Name alone, without ascribing any partner to Him.' This is as Allah says,

[قُلْ إِنَّ صَلاَتِى وَنُسُكِى وَمَحْيَاىَ وَمَمَاتِى للَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ - لاَ شَرِيكَ لَهُ وَبِذَلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ ]


(Say: "Verily, my Salah, my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of all that exists. He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims.'') (6:162-163)

Ibn `Abbas, `Ata,' Mujahid, `Ikrimah and Al-Hasan all said, "This means with this the Budn should be sacrificed.''[10] Qatadah, Muhammad bin Ka`b Al-Qurazi, Ad-Dahhak, Ar-Rabi`, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, Al-Hakam, Isma`il bin Abi Khalid and others from the Salaf have all said the same. [11]This is the opposite of the way of the idolators, prostrating to other than Allah and sacrificing in other than His Name. Allah says,

[وَلاَ تَأْكُلُواْ مِمَّا لَمْ يُذْكَرِ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَفِسْقٌ]


(And do not eat from what Allah's Name has not been pronounced over, indeed that is Fisq.) (6:121)

[1] Muslim 1:300, Abu Dawud 5:110, and An-Nasai in Al-Kubra 6:533.
[2] Muslim 1:300.
[3] Ahmad 3:102.
[4] Ahmad 3:103.
[5] Al-Bukhari no. 4946.
[6] Ahmad 3:220.
[7] Fath Al-Bari 8:603.
[8] Ahmad 2:67. See Al-Bukhari 4965.
[9] Tuhfat Al-Ahwadhi 9:294, Ibn Majah 2:1450, and At-Tabari 24:660.
[10] At-Tabari 24:653.
[11] At-Tabari 24:654.

39 comments:

Nakdimon said...

Again, the zeal of Refutingacts17 gets the best of him, just as it does with Yahya Snow time and time again.

We have two scenarios here:

1 One Quran verse seems to say that Muhammad knew what destiny Allah had for Muhammad. This is supported by Hadith literature.

2 One Quran verse seems to say that Muhammad did NOT know what destiny Allah had for Muhammad. This is also supported by Hadith literature.

This just shows that the Islamic sources are hopelessly unreliable, because the sources don't add up. Because according to the chronology of revelation, Surah 108 was one of the first Surah´s that Allah "revealed" to Muhammad and Surah 46 was revealed later in Muhammad's "prophetic" carreer. Yet Surah 108 supposedly has Muhammad overjoyed because of the promise of Paradise, while Surah 46 commands Muhammad to proclaim that he is clueless about what his eternal destination will be. So basically Allah promises and Allah then takes it back. Yet still Muslims want to claim that Muhammad was certain of Paradise. Sorry, your sources say otherwise.

Nakdimon

RefutingActs17 said...

Nakdimon,

Are you ready to claim that the verses you pointed out in Surah 108 is specifically talking about destiny, or the vagaries of life? Looking forward to continuing this dialogue with you.

Anonymous said...

NakdiMoron, don't forget my response in the other thread.

Anthony Rogers said...

Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory, That Allah MAY forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and MAY perfect His favour unto thee, and MAY guide thee on a right path, S. 48:1-2 Pickthall Medinan

Jibreelk said...

Yahya please check out my site under the Black stone post that you put
see what's going on with Sam and Keith
I have accepted a debate with Sam and see what they are doing..lol

Nakdimon said...

RefutingActs17,

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you explain?

thanks

RefutingActs17 said...

Are you sure the Hadith and verses you quoted are specifically talking about one's end?


In other words does the context justify your assertion?

Nakdimon said...

I dont see any other way to interpret those texts. If you have any other interpretation to offer, please feel free to enlighten me.

Thanks!

Nakdimon said...

“Anthony Rogers: Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory, That Allah MAY forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and MAY perfect His favour unto thee, and MAY guide thee on a right path, S. 48:1-2 Pickthall Medinan”

The hilarious “assa” Bassam blunder comes to mind. LOL!
(you don’t know Arabic! HAAAA!)

RefutingActs17 said...

Br. Nakdimon,

After a thorough look at Surah 46 I am sorry to say that you have misinterpreted the verse. I'll give you more about my conclusions later.

Best Regards,
RefutingActs17

Didact said...

Quite a telling article, I must say.

Nakdimon said...

Hi Didact, telling in what sense?

Radical Moderate said...

Non Refuting first asked Nak this question.

"Are you ready to claim that the verses you pointed out in Surah 108 is specifically talking about destiny, or the vagaries of life? Looking forward to continuing this dialogue with you."

Then Non Refuting posts this statement...

"Br. Nakdimon,

After a thorough look at Surah 46 I am sorry to say that you have misinterpreted the verse. I'll give you more about my conclusions later."

This is classic, I think that call this the Kansas City Shuffel. Get them to look right while you go left.

Amazing ask about surah 108 and then say he mis interpreted surah 46.

Radical Moderate said...

At Anthony and Nak

Yes Allah will forgive Mohameds Sins, nobody told Allah the Not Knowing that Mohamed is sinless.

Lupus el Lobo said...

Radmod said:

This is classic, I think that call this the Kansas City Shuffel. Get them to look right while you go left.

Amazing ask about surah 108 and then say he mis interpreted surah 46.

I say:

I must admit that many of your comments are quite humorous. You seem to have a talent for making funny remarks.

Anonymous said...

Nakdimoron:...you cant know in what state someone died. Hence, you cant say anyone made it into Jannah, INCLUDING YOUR PROFIT! Although you may HOPE he died a believer, fact of the matter is that you don’t know in which state he died!

Your main point is, we don't know the state in which Muhammad(saw) died. The fact is Allah describes Muhammad(saw) as the foremost of those who believe (6:14, 6:163, 39:11-12). Given that whatever Allah says embodies foreknowledge, it necessarily follows Muhammad(saw) both lived and died as a believer. This is reinforced by the fact that if Muhammad(saw) at any point had lied about Allah, he would have dropped dead instantly (69:45-46).

NakdiMoron: As for your fable that every believer is guaranteed a place in Jannah by default on the basis that he is a believer when he dies is also nonsense. The only verse that has a promise “binding upon Allah” is the verse that talks about slaying and being slain for Allah’s cause, i.e. martyrdom Islamic style!

Wrong. 25:15-16 guarantees Jannah to non-martyrs.

NakdimoRon: The rest depends on many factors: scales, good deeds vs bad deeds, Allah’s decree, etc. Given all this there is no guarantee that you will make it into Jannah even if you die as a believer.

That's an illogical argument since if I die as a believer, it necessarily follows that I have satisfied "many factors: scales, good deeds vs bad deeds, etc".

Nakdimoron: Lastly, the Quran guarantees you will enter hell and according to Surah 19:68-72 ONLY the godfearing will be taken out. Question: How do you know you were godfearing enough upon death? YOU DON’T! Hence you have no guarantee that you will enter Paradise, sonny-boy. Allah made it appear to you perhaps?

Actually, 19:71-72 refers to the Sirat over hellfire that everyone will cross. Only the believers will make it out safely, with those with more Iman crossing it faster than those with less. Anyway, even if your supposition is true, it still follows that ultimately all believers will end up in Paradise, just as Allah promised. Moreover, there is a hadith which says that as long as a person has faith in his heart "equal to the weight of a barley grain", he will ultimately enter Paradise.

All things considered, believers will ultimately end up in Paradise. My argument still stands.

Come one NakdimoRon! I thought that after all this time you'd be able to come up with something better. Instead, you are as big a dumbass as ever!

Nakdimon said...

Anonymous aka Ibn Shaytan writes: Your main point is, we don't know the state in which Muhammad(saw) died. The fact is Allah describes Muhammad(saw) as the foremost of those who believe (6:14, 6:163, 39:11-12). Given that whatever Allah says embodies foreknowledge, it necessarily follows Muhammad(saw) both lived and died as a believer. This is reinforced by the fact that if Muhammad(saw) at any point had lied about Allah, he would have dropped dead instantly (69:45-46).

Muhammad being the foremost of the believers says nothing about his eternal destination. Since all believers will go to hell (we will get to this text later) says nothing about Mo making it into paradise and nothing about his state of belief when he died. Which brings us to the text you so haply referred to thinking that it actually helps your case:

And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings, We would certainly have seized him by the right hand, THEN WE WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE CUT OFF HIS AORTA. (69:44-46)

This verse doesn’t mean that he would drop dead instantly, stop lying! So we see here that Allah promises to cut off Muhammad’s (saw nothing) aorta/main artery/jugular vein if he would invent things about Allah. Lo and behold what Muhammad (saw nothing) says on his death bed according to your “most authentic” sources of his sayings:

Narrated Ibn Abbas: 'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to let Ibn Abbas sit beside him, so 'AbdurRahman bin 'Auf said to 'Umar, "We have sons similar to him." 'Umar replied, "(I respect him) because of his status that you know." … Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I STILL FEEL THE PAIN CAUSED BY THE FOOD I ATE AT KHAIBAR, AND AT THIS TIME, I FEEL AS IF MY AORTA IS BEING CUT FROM THAT POISON." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 713)

Narrated AbuSalamah: Muhammad ibn Amr said on the authority of AbuSalamah, and he did not mention the name of AbuHurayrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to accept presents but not alms (sadaqah). This version adds: So a Jewess presented him at Khaybar with a roasted sheep which she had poisoned. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) ate of it and the people also ate. … He then said about the pain of which he died: I CONTINUED TO FEEL PAIN FROM THE MORSEL WHICH I HAD EATEN AT KHAYBAR. THIS IS THE TIME WHEN IT HAS CUT OFF MY AORTA. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 39, Number 4498)

Note that this is not only a sahih hadith but on top of that it’s a mutawatir hadith as well. Now mind the near impossibility here. Muhammad (saw nothing) tried to pin the suffering and pain of his aorta being cut off to the poison he consumed three years before this event. A pain so severe it made him delusional:

When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, THE PROPHET SAID: "COME NEAR LET ME WRITE FOR YOU A WRITING AFTER WHICH YOU WILL NEVER GO ASTRAY." ... (Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9 hadith number 468)

So the unlettered prophet wants to write something for the people and on top of that he wanted to do so to prevent people to go astray while he had been delivering guidance, the Quran, for 23 years. Was he delusional or what?

But I think Muhammad (saw nothing) had a good clue that it wasn’t the poison that killed him. Allah promises to cut off Mo’s (saw nothing) main artery and so it happened. From this information it seems that Mo (saw nothing) died anything but a true believer. So sorry sonny-boy. None of your sources say he died a believer. In fact, based on the above information he met his promised demise and we can all read what led to it in the Quran, specifically 69:44-46. So since your prophet died the exact way Allah promised in the Quran if he would invent stuff, how are you to tell how much Muhammad (saw nothing) invented of the Quran you’re reading today?

Nakdimon said...

Wrong. 25:15-16 guarantees Jannah to non-martyrs.

No It doesn’t. Get with the program! All it says is that Paradise is for the “godfearing”. But the question is, who are godfearing enough? YOU DON’T KNOW! Hence you can’t know if your prophet is in Paradise.

That's an illogical argument since if I die as a believer, it necessarily follows that I have satisfied "many factors: scales, good deeds vs bad deeds, etc".
Actually, 19:71-72 refers to the Sirat over hellfire that everyone will cross. Only the believers will make it out safely, with those with more Iman crossing it faster than those with less. Anyway, even if your supposition is true, it still follows that ultimately all believers will end up in Paradise, just as Allah promised. Moreover, there is a hadith which says that as long as a person has faith in his heart "equal to the weight of a barley grain", he will ultimately enter Paradise.


NO and NO. dying as a believer says nothing about your good deeds and bad deeds, the scales, Allah’s decree, etc. And 19:71-72 doesn’t say that you will “cross over” hellfire. Let’s see what it does say:

Not one of you there is, but he shall GO DOWN TO IT; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. Then We shall deliver those that were godfearing; and the evildoers We shall LEAVE THERE, hobbling on their knees.

This clearly says that you are guaranteed you will GO DOWN TO HELL, not just cross over. AND it goes on to say that Allah will deliver the godfearing but those that are evildoers WILL BE LEFT THERE. This can only mean that the godfearing and the evildoers are put in hell together, but only the godfearing will be taken out. Question: How do you know that you were godfearing enough?

All things considered, believers will ultimately end up in Paradise. My argument still stands.

Come one NakdimoRon! I thought that after all this time you'd be able to come up with something better. Instead, you are as big a dumbass as ever!


LOL. Yeah and while you are calling me a dumbass you’re getting pummeled with your own sources. It would have been funny if it weren’t so sad.

Radical Moderate said...

@Nak

Mohamed (SAW NOTHING) LOL oh thats good.

Anonymous said...

My response is in the other thread.

Anonymous said...

RefutingActs17, another hadith you could use is a hadith in Sunan Ad-Daarimi, Number 50 and Musnad Abi Ya'la narrated that Anas Malik said that the Prophet said that he will be the first to knock on the gate of paradise. (Sheikh Albaani & Abu Esa At-Tirmidhi Declared it Saheeh in Silsilah As-Saheeha, #1570).

More narrations are located in Tabari's tafseer: http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=108&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

test

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

yahya

Is there a reason why somtimes my comments fail to show up?

Radical Moderate said...

FMM
Are they long comments. I have noticed that blogger sometimes says it posts long comments and they even show up as posted but when you refresh the go poof into the ether.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey RM,

I thought I posted a total of about 5 comments (some long some short) in the conversation I was having with Lupus.

I recieved a notice that they were awaiting the approval of the blog owner. That was two days ago.

It all seems strange too me

peace

Anonymous said...

Muhammad might be the first to knock, but if he will not be saved then he will also be the first person to be turned away.

(Muhammad) knock! knock!

(Jibril) Who is there?

(Muhammad): It's me, good old buddy.

(Jibril): Sorry, we had some good times, but Allah isn't too pleased with you. There is a place prepared for you next to Iblis.

Ali said...

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrIslamAnswersback#p/u

Anonymous said...

FMM,

That is doubly odd because my comments never require approval, they just post directly. Why are your comments pending approval?

Radical Moderate said...

As the song goes, Mohamed can
"KEEP A KNOCKIN BUT HE CANT COME IN"

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

anon said:

That is doubly odd because my comments never require approval, they just post directly.

I say,

At the begining of a thread that is the case for me as well.

Then often when I'm in the middle of a fruitful discussion suddenly the thread becomes moderated. I would like to know why this is the case

you said,

Why are your comments pending approval?

I say,

I wish I knew and I also would like to know why it takes so long for approval to be granted.


peace

1MoreMuslim said...

Anthony Rogers:

The problem is that we have to teach Christians their native English language first , then we have to teach them Arabic.


World English Dictionary
May
5. to indicate result or purpose: used only in clauses introduced by that or so that : he writes so that the average reader may understand

Anthony Rogers, If you are in your 40's and you still don't get a grip on your mother language, It's time for you to understand that you should stop discussing other people's language. There is no shred of evidence that S.48 expresses doubt. and there is no "Assa" either. Get at least a transliteration.

sam1528 said...

fifth monarchy man ,

I believe if you post a couple of the same messages the system will recognise them as spam and it automatically directs the messages into the spam folder. Your nick will be flagged as a spammer.

Bro yahya will then need to manually remove you from the spammer list and retrieve your messages.

Best is that if your message didn't come out instantly , just give it a few hrs before you repost.

Hope this is of some help.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Sam,

Thanks for the response. The problem with that explanation is I am still allowed to post on other threads.

The moderaton seems to be tied to paticular threads and not my nick in general.

For example I posted a couple of comments early friday in the thread where I was having the discussion with Lupus that have not shown up as yet.

Yet my comments here come strait through.


peace

could someone do me a favor and post in that thread to see if they have the same difficulity?

here it is

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/07/american-christian-bigots-and-female.html


thanks in advance

Lupus el Lobo said...

Hey FMM,

I tried to post a reply to some of your comments, but the same thing happened to me. So we'll just have to see if they show up.
Anyways, I just want to let you know that I won't continue the discussion, because a person who tries the to prove the authenticity of the Bible with arguments like I'm filled with the holy ghost is impossible to have a fruitful discussion with.
I know that you provided more than just that argument, but that argument together with arguments like the testimony of my fellow believers just made me realize that I'm wasting my time.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey lupus,

I really enjoyed our discussion.

I'm sorry to hear that you don‘t believe that it‘s possible for God to communicate with to his Children.

The fact is the testimony of God is the only Epistemological foundation that I can think of that is not biased and subjective.

No offence but I think basing your worldview on your own feelings ideas and senses is very dangerous. It is the very definition of Idolatry i.e. putting the creature (Lupus) in the place of God .

Besides that when we begin with the creation instead of God our conclusions will always in the end be found to be in error.

I would be glad to entertain your arguments for your human centered approach to these things as long as you demonstrate that you could apply your presuppositions consistently.

I think I’ve shown that you have not as of yet been able to do that.

In our short conversation you demonstrated at least three gross inconsistencies.

1) You claim the NT is not well preserved because of what Scholarship has to say but reject the same scholarship when it reveals that the Quran is in worse condition

2) You claim that the Trinity was not defined early because we have no record of it and at the same time believe in an Islamic Christianity despite having no evidence.

3) You reject Paul’s apostleship because we have no record of Jesus mentioning him by name yet you have no problem following Muhammad despite no mention by the historical Jesus


I am sure that if we were to continue our conversation the inconsistencies would only become more obvious.


If you change your mind I would love to continue to explore your presuppositions with you

Let me know

Again thanks and

peace

Lupus el Lobo said...

FMM said:

You claim the NT is not well preserved because of what Scholarship has to say but reject the same scholarship when it reveals that the Quran is in worse condition

I say:
Well the difference is that there is actual proof that the Bible has been changed in the form of actual manuscripts. It's not like I'm basing my views on thin air, or just taking someone's word for it because it happens to suit my world view.

FMM said:

You claim that the Trinity was not defined early because we have no record of it and at the same time believe in an Islamic Christianity despite having no evidence.

I say:
Hughe difference. Last time I checked the Trinity was a core tenent of Christianity. The Quran is consistent and clear about the core beliefs of Islam. None of the core beliefs were agreed upon 300 years after the prophet.

You said:

You reject Paul’s apostleship because we have no record of Jesus mentioning him by name yet you have no problem following Muhammad despite no mention by the historical Jesus.

I say:

Well, the problem is that we don't have any reliable records of Jesus at all. Moreover, even if we had and he didn't mention our prophet by name isn't that quite different from the fact that he doesn't mention Paul by name. He sent him according to your scriptures. He didn't send Muhammad (sas). Allah did.

Thank you for having this discussion with me. By the way concerning exploring my presuppositions (like you don't have any) thanks but no thanks.
This will be my last post on this subject.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

You say:

Well the difference is that there is actual proof that the Bible has been changed in the form of actual manuscripts.

I say,

You say that yet you have been unable to provide any evidence that that is the case. Such a thing should be easy to come by.

You say,


It's not like I'm basing my views on thin air, or just taking someone's word for it because it happens to suit my world view.

I say,

I think it is like that or you would be able to provide evidence. So far you have nothing but Lupus says that Erman says

You say,

I say:
Hughe difference. Last time I checked the Trinity was a core tenent of Christianity.

I say,

Are you saying the belief that Islam is the only true religion and all previous Prophets were Muslims is not a “core tenant” of Islam? You must believe this to be a Muslim yet you have no record of the true followers of Jesus being Muslim


You say,




The Quran is consistent and clear about the core beliefs of Islam. None of the core beliefs were agreed upon 300 years after the prophet.


I say:

How can you possibly know this given that scholarship says that the Quran we have today was repeatedly changed to make it consistent with Islamic dogma?


You say:

Well, the problem is that we don't have any reliable records of Jesus at all.

I say,

Again with the inconsistency, you reject the historical record of Jesus despite the fact that the written gospels are many years closer in time to his life than the haddiths are to the life of Muhammad.

You say

Moreover, even if we had and he didn't mention our prophet by name isn't that quite different from the fact that he doesn't mention Paul by name. He sent him according to your scriptures. He didn't send Muhammad (sas). Allah did.

I say,

Lets examine your premise

1) you said that the reason you expected Jesus to mention Paul by name is because Christians believe that Jesus was Omniscient (iow God).

2) Christians believe that Jesus is God so there is no difference between being sent by God and being sent by Jesus as is evident from the NT itself (Gal 1:1, Romans 1:1, 1st Cor 1:1 etc)

3) Jesus did mention Paul by name (Acts 9:1)

You say,

Thank you for having this discussion with me.

I say,


The pleasure is all mine. Any time I am able to defend my Lord against attack it is a Joy

You say,

By the way concerning exploring my presuppositions (like you don't have any) thanks but no thanks.



I say,

I under stand. It can be very disconcerting to have the foundation of your worldview be shown to be built on the shifting sand of personal human facilities.


I agree that everyone has presuppositions but the difference is that mine have their origin in the Creator of the universe and are therefore guarantied to be consistent and to lead in the end to the truth.

I think I’ve demonstrated that you can have no such confidence

You say

This will be my last post on this subject.


I say,

That is a pity. Funny that you don't want to discuss these things with the person you said was the most enjoyable Christian to talk to here.

If God chooses to show you mercy and you change your mind let me know.

Peace

Lupus el Lobo said...

FMM said:

Funny that you don't want to discuss these things with the person you said was the most enjoyable Christian to talk to here.

I say:

I gave you a compliment and you use it against me. Is this the actions of somebody filled with the holy spirit? It's a rethorical question - no need to answer it. I gave you my reasons for ending the discussion.
I would've left your post unanswered, but couldn't help my self after reading that sentence.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

You said,

Is this the actions of somebody filled with the holy spirit?

I say,

Actually pointing out that someone has no reason for their snubbing you other than the fact that they don’t like what you have to say is exactly the sort of thing someone who is influenced by the Holy Sprit would do.


Quote:


Jesus answered him, "If what I said is wrong, bear witness about the wrong; but if what I said is right, why do you strike me?"
(John 18:23)

And


But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
(John 8:45-47)

And


For you gladly bear with fools, being wise yourselves! For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face. To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that!
(2 Corinthians 11:19-21a)



End quote:


Peace