The Banu Qurayza’s demise is one which critics of Islam manipulate to work their Islamophobic agendas (and in many cases Christian evangelical agendas!). This article is for those who actually want to cut through the Islamophobia whilst understanding the main issues relating to Banu Qurayzah (Quraiza). For those who simply follow ill-informed Christian evangelists/bigots without the merest hint of research or credentials then this piece is not for you.
Firstly, the number of Jews killed in the incident is uncertain. The figures generally banded around number 600-900. Karen Armstrong uses the figure of 700 [1].
Who was the Banu Qurayza?
The Banu Qurayza (Arabic: بني قريظة; بنو قريظة alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe which lived in northern Arabia, at the oasis of Yathrib (presently known as Medina), until the 7th century, when their conflict with Muhammad led to their demise, after the Invasion of Banu Qurayza, took place in the Dhul Qa‘dah, 5 A.H i.e. in February/March, 627 AD [2]
An Encyclopaedic view on Banu Qurayzah
The most concise depiction of the issues relating to the Jews of Banu Qurayzah that I have come across is from the learned Cyril Glasse’s Encyclopaedia of Islam. Points made by Cyril Glasse shall be presented with interjections of an explanatory nature.
Qurayzah. A Jewish tribe of Medina that betrayed the Muslims during the battle of the Trench. When the Quraysh abandoned the siege of the city, Gabriel commanded the Prophet not to lay down arms until the Qurayzah were subdued. Their hands freed by the departure of the Quraysh and their confederates, the Muslims turned upon the Banu Qurayzah and besieged their defensive towers for twenty five days. [3]
[The Quraysh were the pagan tribe from Mecca who attempted to exterminate the nascent Muslim community (and Prophet Muhammad, p) in the battle of the Trench. They marched up to Medina with the sole intent of annihilating the Muslims. The Qurayzah betrayed the Muslims and allied with the Quraish, thus further jeopardising the existence of the Muslim community]
Who decided the men of Banu Qurayza should be killed and why?
When the Banu Qurayzah surrendered they were judged, as a concession, by Sa’d ibn Muadh, a chief of their former allies, the Aws; lying on his deathbed, in pain from a wound inflicted during the fighting with the Quraysh, he passed a rigorous judgement: the adult men should be put to death and the women and children sold into slavery. [3]
[Later on in this segment, Glasse lets us know this ruling is within the BIBLE (Deut 20:12) and most likely Sa’d ibn Muadh was using their law to judge them.
12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. {Deuteronomy 20:12-14New International Version (NIV)}
The Christian bigots and other critics do not relay the information that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had NOTHING to do with the judgement which befell the Banu Qurayzah and moreover, the BIBLE, most likely, had more to do with the punishment of this tribe of Jews (Banu Qurayzah).than any other text or teaching]
Cyril Glasse: criticism concerning the Banu Qurayzah is unfair
In books written in the West, the episode has been the occasion for criticism as an example of extreme cruelty. But it was not as unusual event; similar punishment was meted out elsewhere, as is the destruction of the Albigensians in France, for example and for much the same reason. It is the case of the final judgement overtaking people while still in this world. [3]
The Bible teaches such punishments
The irony is quite immense. Some of the Christian bigots and evangelists using this event to shock folk into leaving Islam wind up with egg on their face as the punishment meted out to the Banu Qurayzah seems very much biblical. The extent of ignorance amongst Christian Islamophobes and evangelists regarding the bible never ceases to amaze us – only the ignorant Christians use the incident of the Banu Qurayzah as criticism and/or evangelical pieces.
In the Bible there are numerous comparable cases. Jewish law itself prescribes such treatment for the conquest of a city as a matter of course, even when betrayal is not in question:
[Glasse cites Deuteronomy 20:12, here is the NIV translation of Deuteronomy 20:12-14:
12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.]
This is perhaps why Sa’d ibn Muadh gave the Qurayzah this sentence; that their own law should be used on them [3]
Exiling Banu Qurayzah Vs. Biblical Judgement (killing) of Banu Qurayzah
Though it may sound quite callous, it must be stated that the wisdom of using the biblical judgement (killing) outweighed the simple exiling of the Banu Qurayzah in the way of the Banu Nadir and Banu Qaynuqa as an exile would have meant a swelling of enemy ranks within Khaybar and advancing a potential threat to the existence of the nascent Muslims society. [3]
Karen Armstrong writes:
The massacre of Qurayzah was a horrible incident, but it would be a mistake to judge it by the standards of our own time. This was a very primitive society: the Muslims themselves had just narrowly escaped extermination, and had Muhammad simply exiled Qurayzah they would have swelled the Jewish opposition in Khaybar and brought another war upon the ummah. In seventh-century Arabia an Arab chief was not expected to show mercy traitors like Qurayzah. The executions sent a grim message to Khaybar and helped to quell the pagan opposition in Medina, since the pagan leaders had been the allies of the rebellious Jews. This was a fight to the death, and everybody had always known the stakes were high. [1]
Hating Jews?
Sadly, critics and some of the unlearned Christian bigots and evangelists use this event to promote the idea of Muslims being inherently anti-Jew. Karen Armstrong corrects such misconstructions:
The struggle did not indicate any hostility towards Jews in general, but only towards the three rebel tribes…
…Smaller Jewish groups continued to live in Medina, and later Jews, like Christians, enjoyed full religious liberty in the Islamic empires. Anti-Semitism is a Christian vice. Hatred of the Jews became marked in the Muslim world only after the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 and the subsequent loss of Arab Palestine. [1]
[1] Islam - A Short History, Karen Armstrong, Phoenix Press, 2001, p18
[2] Wikipedia on Banu Qurayza
[3] The Concise Encyclopaedia of Islam, Revised Edition, Cyril Glasse, Stacey International, 2001 p374
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Sunday, 10 July 2011
The Truth About Banu Qurayza - Jews Killed by Bible Judgement?
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Islamophobia,
Jews,
Prophet Muhammad,
Refuting critics,
The Bible
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37 comments:
i did not knew this on the bible telling to kill the men. is there a explanation
@Yahya Snow
Amazing how Muslims always blame the victims, just another case of Blame the Jews for the genocide that was commited against them in the 7th century arabia.
So using the Islamic logic then, it would be OK for Christians to kill Christian apostates to Islam right?
Since that is the judgment prescibed for Muslims who apostate.
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Sunday, July 10, 2011
Rad said:
So using the Islamic logic then, it would be OK for Christians to kill Christian apostates to Islam right?
Lupus replied:
You could always try.
@Snow man lets examine the ways that this is wrong.
1. The passage in Deuterotomy deals with a specific time and a specific place and a specific people under specific circumstance.
None of which finds it's parralle in the Genocide commited by Muslims against the Jews in Arabia.
2. The story if it can be believed says that someone else made the judgment. If this is true it was still Mohamed who carried out the Judgment. This is a problem for a number of reasons.
2a. The first problem is that Mohamed is supposed to be a Prophet, so as a Prophet wouldn't he know the passage in Deut, if so then why did he need to defer to someone else.
2b. Secondly even if the story is true and a dying man judged the JOOSH in this way, Mohamed your merciful prophet showed them no mercy and carried out the judment with ZEAL.
And finaly as I stated earlier, if you accept this appeal to Deut to justify your Merciful prophit commiting genocide, then the same should apply to Muslims.
For instance you should have no problem then in the killing of most of your Muslim brothren who visit your blog for commiting blasphme agains Gods Spirit.
You should have no problem with us Kuffar cutting off the hands and feet on opposite sides for those Muslims who "create mischief in the land".
Right?
You should have no problem in Christians killing christian apostates to Islam.
Lupus, according to many Muslims Christians are the ones responsible for America's wars. So on that reasoning I would have to say, "not only can we try, but we appear to be doing a pretty good job."
radical moderate ,
You never stop twisting and turning - do you??
The judgement on bani quraiza is linked to the 'charter of madinah'. Excerpt of it
'..30. The Jews of Bani Awf will be treated as one community with the Believers. The Jews have their religion..'
'..32. Loyalty gives protection against treachery..'
'..47. In case of any dispute or controversy, which may result in trouble the matter must be referred to Allah and Muhammed (may Allah bless him and grant him peace)..'
charter of medina
In accordance to clause 47 , bani quraiza submitted to Prophet Muhammad(saw) for judgement. However the folks (jews) of bani awf intervened and requested Prophet Muhammad(saw) to let them judge. These 2 tribes have close relationship with one another therefore they anticipated a lenient judgement
Prophet Muhammad(saw) agreed thus sad muadh was appointed , him being their chief (bani awf)
'..When Sad arrived , his clansmen begged him to be lenient to Banu Quraydha; for they insisted, the Prophet (peace be upon him) had made him an arbiter so that they get their demand..'
bani quraiza
Bani Quraiza agreed to this arrangement.Bukhari vol5 no58 bk148
'..Some people (i.e. the Jews of Bani bin Quraiza) agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Muadh so the Prophet sent for him (i.e. Sad bin Muadh)..'
The judgement was in accordance to clause 30 of the medina charter. If we refer to the bible (niv) of deut20 , the context is going to war and judgement of the biblical god on the people who did not want to make peace as historical facts documented that bani quraiza resisted for 20 odd days.
Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not have have anything to do with the judgement. These folks requested their own arbiter and be judged according to their own religious law.
Why complain? If anything you christians should condemn your very own bible.
We muslims do not believe that the 'holy spirit' is god. Why are you forcing your beliefs onto us?
You christians want to execute apostates from christianity? Go ahead , that is what the bible teaches per
(1) deut17:3-5
(2) joh15:6
For even if many men once boasted that they worshipped the Supreme Majesty, the Maker of heaven and earth, yet because they had no Mediator it was not possible for them truly to taste God’s mercy, and thus be persuaded that he was their Father. Accordingly, because they did not hold Christ as their Head, they possessed only a fleeting knowledge of God. From this it also came about that they at last lapsed into crass and foul superstitions and betrayed their own ignorance. So today the Turks, although they proclaim at the top of their lungs that the Creator of heaven and earth is God, still, while repudiating Christ, substitute an idol in place of the true God. - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Book II, Chapter VI).
Anon:
Lupus, according to many Muslims Christians are the ones responsible for America's wars. So on that reasoning I would have to say, "not only can we try, but we appear to be doing a pretty good job."
Lupus:
That's the spirit. It's good you Christians show your true face for the world to see. The question is whether you're doing a good Job. You are getting your asses kicked in Afghanistan by a bunch of primitive fighters. The death toll increases by the day. Moreover, instead of going to the other side of the globe, maybe you should do something about the increasing numbers of muslims in the states.
"Amazing how Muslims always blame the victims, just another case of Blame the Jews for the genocide that was commited against them in the 7th century arabia."
That is what Christians do when we point out the killing of infants in the bible: Those infants will be bad guys anyway so why let them live in first place, and also the animals !!!
@The Muslims
Ok I don't want to hear any more whining and complaing from you guys, when NATO bombs and kills Muslims. Since according to snowmans article and the response of Sam1528, Lopus, and 1moremuslim. We are just following the example of your prophet, and practicing ISLAM on you.
AHAMDULLAH
Radmod:
Ok I don't want to hear any more whining and complaing from you guys, when NATO bombs and kills Muslims. Since according to snowmans article and the response of Sam1528, Lopus, and 1moremuslim. We are just following the example of your prophet, and practicing ISLAM on you.
Lupus:
Ahh finally more in the closet Christians who come out and reveal their true beliefs. It's interesting to note that you identify with Nato by using the first person pronoun "we".
@Lopus whats wrong. You don't want non Muslims to practice Islam on you? Is that bad to practice Islam on Muslims?
@Yahya
I just thought of another problem.
I thought Islam did away with slavery?
If thats true then why is Mohamed the most merciful doing selling woman and children into slavery?
Would you have a problem if Nato forces where to imitate Mohamed the Most Merciful and sell the Woman and Children of Afganistan into slavery
@Yahya snow and the Muslims
Hey if a Muslim gets caught doing something iligal in the US, which well is about everyday. Should the US cut off the Muslims hand? Or what if they are causing mischief in the land, should we crucify Muslims and or Cut off there limbs on oposite sides?
What do you guys think, would that be real cool to practice Islam on Muslims?
Lupus,
Not only are you foul mouthed and prone to typing profanity, but you also don't seem to be able to understand the subtleties of sarcasm nor hypothetical situations posed as an exercise to demonstrate the inconsistency of arguments.
radical moderate ,
From you :
'..Ok I don't want to hear any more whining and complaing from you guys, when NATO bombs and kills Muslims. Since according to snowmans article and the response of Sam1528, Lopus, and 1moremuslim. We are just following the example of your prophet, and practicing ISLAM on you..'
Hmm , trying to force your flawed religious beliefs onto others again I see.
Prophet Muhammad(saw) provided the concession that the jews of bani quraiza were to be judged by one who had a relationship with them as requested by bani awf who were very close with bani quraiza (they anticipated a lenient judgement). They were judged according to their own laws per deut20.
There is nothing in the Quran that is identical or similar to deut20.
Why do want to judge us muslims according to your biblical laws? You , a christian , insist on secular , not biblical law for yourselves but fantasise of biblical laws upon us muslims?
Have you been smoking weed?
Sam1528 ASKED
"Have you been smoking weed?"
The answer is no but it is obvious that you have been smoking TA WEED.
I find this amazing, you Muslims say that "Sharia is the answer" you want to practice Islam on everyone. But when non Muslim want to practice Islam on Muslims you suddenly you don't want Islam.
You wrote...
"Hmm , trying to force your flawed religious beliefs onto others again I see."
I'm not a Mohamadian Muslim, I"m a Christian and thus submit to Christ. Hence I do not have a "Flawed belief". But it is evident that you have a flawed belief since you have no problem with Mohamed commiting Genocide and for his excuse had to go to the TORAH.
You wrote...
"There is nothing in the Quran that is identical or similar to deut20."
This demonstrates you have a flawed beleif since Mohamed had to go outside of the Quran in order to commit genocide.
You also wrote...
"Why do want to judge us muslims according to your biblical laws? You , a christian , insist on secular , not biblical law for yourselves but fantasise of biblical laws upon us muslims?"
Answer is I DON"T.
I want to practice Islam on Muslims. It is Muslims who do not want Islam practiced on themselves.
I want the limbs cut off on oposite sides of Muslims who create mischief in the land. Isnt that what you want?
I want Muslism who commit blasphemee against Gods holy spirit like the Muslims have done with the tacid approval of the blog owner to be put to death. Isnt that what you want?
I want Muslims who became Muslims after leaving another relgion to be killed. Isnt that what you want?
I want Muslim woman and children in Afgan to be sold into slavery. Isnt that what you want?
I want Muslim mothers, sisters, daughters aunts and grandmothers to be stoned to death when the are caught being whores. Isn't that what you want?
I want Muslim sons and daughters to be killed for being homosexual. Isnt that what you want?
I could go on but I think you get my point.
Sam
radmod:
@Lopus whats wrong. You don't want non Muslims to practice Islam on you? Is that bad to practice Islam on Muslims?
Lupus:
Whatever you say you practice be honest and stop being a hypocrite. So what you're saying is that it is allowed in your brand of Christianity to practice what you call Islam on Muslims. Next time you say your brand of Christianity is a peaceful religion we can always go back and compare it with your statements here.
Speak said:
"Not only are you foul mouthed and prone to typing profanity, but you also don't seem to be able to understand the subtleties of sarcasm nor hypothetical situations posed as an exercise to demonstrate the inconsistency of arguments."
I changed my ways and called it feces. Moreover, i'm willing to apologize for using invectives.
Lastly, my question was what you call a "hypothetical" question "posed as an exercise to demonstrate the inconsistency of arguments."
So maybe it is you who don't understand sarcasm and hypothetical questions aimed at showing the inconsistency of arguments.
Radmod:
I want Muslism who commit blasphemee against Gods holy spirit like the Muslims have done with the tacid approval of the blog owner to be put to death.
Again there goes "my brand of Christianity is a peaceful religion" out of the window.
Whatever our Prophet did it was according to Islam. We are open about the fact that we can use violence to defend ourselves. What brother Snow attempted to show was that the Jews would have done the same thing to Muslims if they won. The genious about his post is that he managed to tease out the violent beliefs of some of the Christians who adamantly claim that their type of Christianity is peaceful. There is nothing peacful about the arguments you use here.
The thing with fundies like you is that you are hypocrites. There are Christians who strongly interpret the NT in a peaceful manner. They would have used entirely different arguments than you redneck fundies. They would have simply pointed out that violence is wrong and that "Those who use the sword will die by the sword."
Although I don't agree with all the beliefs of such Christians at least they are'nt hypocrites.
CNN Anderson Cooper 360 at 10:00 p.m (EST). tonight's about , WALID SHOEBAT......in an investigation regarding his so called Muslim and terrorist history and his conversion to Christianity.
JAK for all your work brother.
CNN.com link and story on WALID SHOEBAT
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/07/11/terrorism.expert/
radical moderate
You should change your nick to emotionally radical. How come you are so emotional and argue based on your fantasy?
Ha ha , what is it?? 'TA WEED'?? This is the mentality of a 12 yr old kid trapped in the body of a 40 odd yrs old adult.
In sharia law , there is religious freedom. Therefore the non muslims will be governed by there own religious law. What is soooo difficult to understand unless you have less than average intelligence.
Isn't christianity a flawed belief? Biblical jesus never called his followers 'christians'- an example of your flawed belief . Prophet Muhammad(saw) wasn't the one who passed judgement. The person was sad muadh (as agreed by bani quraiza) according to their own religious scripture. Oops , it happened to be deut20 - part of the bible. Gee whizz , what say you??
Why should we muslims use the Quran to judge the non muslims? We need to use their own laws prescribed in their own scriptures. This is logic .... too bad logic and christianity don't mix.
from you :
'..Answer is I DON"T.
I want to practice Islam on Muslims. It is Muslims who do not want Islam practiced on themselves..'
TQ , then why are you mindlessly complaining about the penalty meted to bani quraiza? The judgement was passed by a person close to them based on their own laws. This is in accordance to the charter of medina.
Quran5:48 '..To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way..'
From you :
'..I want Muslism who commit blasphemee against Gods holy spirit like the Muslims have done with the tacid approval of the blog owner to be put to death. Isnt that what you want?..'
Since when did us muslims ever believed that the 'holy spirit' is god? That is why I asked - why are you trying to force your flawed belief onto us muslims?
From you :
'..I want Muslims who became Muslims after leaving another relgion to be killed. Isnt that what you want?..'
Why should we kill reverts to Islam? Are you mentally unstable?
From you :
'..I want Muslim woman and children in Afgan to be sold into slavery. Isnt that what you want?..'
Wow ... I believe Islam was the first religion to eradicate slavery. Whereas slavery still exist in the judeo christian world. An example is the penal labour - its actually slave labour.
From you :
'..I want Muslim mothers, sisters, daughters aunts and grandmothers to be stoned to death when the are caught being whores. Isn't that what you want?..'
Hmmm , you are confused , aren't you? Its actually in the bible that women are to be stoned to death for adultery - deut22:20-24. Can you show me any verses in the Quran that prescribes 'stoning to death' for adultery / whoring?
From you :
'..I want Muslim sons and daughters to be killed for being homosexual. Isnt that what you want?..'
Can you define what is a homosexual? Islam punishes sodomy. We muslims make no apologies about it. How do you prove that the 'homosexual' couple committed sodomy , ie. the rod is in the hole?
Of course christians are ok with sodomites. After all sexual trysts of all manner is rampant in the bible. The geneaology of your so called god in biblical jesus , according to mat 1 , has parez in it, Mind telling us muslims how was biblical parez conceived and tie it to deut23:2.
Try easing up being so pent up and emotional. Its less stressful for you.
@Sam1528 you wrote...
In sharia law , there is religious freedom"
LOL Thanks for the laugh I really needed it this morning.
I'm not going to discuss Islam's version of freedom of relegion which really means Freedom of Muslims to oppress other relegions." Instead I refer you to Ibn Kathir, and the Shafi school of Islamic Jursiprudance for that.
But I find this next part interesting.
"Therefore the non muslims will be governed by there own religious law. What is soooo difficult to understand unless you have less than average intelligence.
The whole point of snowmans blog post was to justify the GENOCIDE commited by Mohamed against the Jewish tribe, by saying that he was just practicing their own laws on them.
So I turned it around on you Muslims and asked should non Muslims practice Islam on Muslims. I mean fair is fair right.
The answer so far has been NOOOOOOOOOO.
I also love this part.
"Can you define what is a homosexual? Islam punishes sodomy. We muslims make no apologies about it."
So only Sodomy is iligal, so its ok for you to perform oral sex on say The Grand verbilizer?
Serioulsy man if you have to ask for a definition of homosexuality then chances are you look for ways around your laws to practice what the bible calls a ABOMONATION.
But thats what the bible says about you. "They make up ways to do evil...God handed them over to a depraved mind to do what should not be done"
I almost forgot this little gem.
You wrote...
"Wow ... I believe Islam was the first religion to eradicate slavery."
LOL, in snowmans post he admits that Mohamed not only commited Genocide, but also sold the woman and children into salvery. HOW CAN YOU ERADICATE SLAVERY WHEN YOU ARE SELLING PEOPLE INTO SLAVERY?????
Well thanks for playing. Your always good for a laugh.
Good to know that Muslims do not want Islam practiced on themselves.
Good to know that men and woman can be sexually, emotionaly and mentaly attracted to each other, kiss and hug and hold hands, perform oral sex on each other and other things, but just not commit sodomy.
Good to know that Islam eradicated slavery at the same time Mohamed was selling woman and children into slavery.
Well have fun
Radmod:
So only Sodomy is iligal, so its ok for you to perform oral sex on say The Grand verbilizer?
Is this the words of someone who is filled with the holy spirit. If it is then I can really understand how people claiming to be filled with the holy spirit could forge biblical texts.
@Lopus
You wrote...
"Is this the words of someone who is filled with the holy spirit. If it is then I can really understand how people claiming to be filled with the holy spirit could forge biblical texts."
Since I told the truth those are the words of someone who is filled with the holy spirit.
So tell me is homosexual oral sex punishable or just sodomy like Sam1528 wrote? If its not that you can join Sam1528 and TGV and perform oral sex on each other till your hearts content.
I can see how someone who follows a God who Jesus said "When lies he speaks his natural language" would confuse the truth for a lie.
Sorry Christians did not "Forge their bibles" like Muslims did to your Hadeeth.
WEll I will leave you, Sam1528 and TGV alone. SO which one of you plays the part of David wood and wich one plays the part of Nabeel. From wha I have read TGV has some pretty vivid homosexual fantaises involving those two.
On second thought I don't want to know. Muslim homosexual fanties have crossed my vommit thresh hold.
@Sam,1528
I dont know how I missed this one. YOu wrote...
"Since when did us muslims ever believed that the 'holy spirit' is god? That is why I asked - why are you trying to force your flawed belief onto us muslims?"
Since when did Christians ever consider Mohamed to be a Prophet. If Muslims are not to be punished for Blasphemy against the Holy spirit, then why is it OK for Muslims to force there beliefs on CHristians and kill US for telling the truth about Mohamed?
radical moderate ,
Taa daa!! Ding - ding - ding!! You just confirmed yourself to be a shamonian not christian.
Only shamonians will repeat already refuted arguments.
From you '..Instead I refer you to Ibn Kathir, and the Shafi school of Islamic Jursiprudance for that..'.
The reference , ibn kathir , that you provided stated that the defeated christians wish for such conditions upon themselves. They asked for such , they got it and the agreement was signed with the POA to reflect such request. I thought we have gone over this one. Oh yeah , you are a shamonian ... it is expected that you rehash already refuted arguments.
From you :
'..The whole point of snowmans blog post was to justify the GENOCIDE commited by Mohamed against the Jewish tribe, by saying that he was just practicing their own laws on them..'
Did Prophet Muhammad(saw) passed the judgement? Yes or no? They had an agreement that each were to be judged according to their scripture. The conditions of the agreement was adhered to ... to the letter. Oh yeah , shamonians in the like of you .... agreement means nothing.
From you :
'..So only Sodomy is iligal, so its ok for you to perform oral sex on say The Grand verbilizer?..'
Quran23:5-6 '..Who abstain from sex .. Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond..'
Clear answer by the Quran. My turn , is it biblically ok for you to perform oral sex on a fellow shamonian , say sam shamoun - your high priest?
You are incapable to provide the definition of homosexuality? Lets say , 2 men are living together and share the same bed. However no sodomy takes place , according to the bible or shamonian scripture , its an abomination?
From you :
'..LOL, in snowmans post he admits that Mohamed not only commited Genocide, but also sold the woman and children into salvery. HOW CAN YOU ERADICATE SLAVERY WHEN YOU ARE SELLING PEOPLE INTO SLAVERY?????..'
The 'force laugh' and mentality of a defeated shamonian. If you know your history (you being an amateur archeologist) you should know this was done in stages.
What about penal labour in the US. Isn't that slavery?
radical moderate ,
From you :
'..Since when did Christians ever consider Mohamed to be a Prophet. If Muslims are not to be punished for Blasphemy against the Holy spirit, then why is it OK for Muslims to force there beliefs on CHristians and kill US for telling the truth about Mohamed?..'
Since when did we muslims ever forced you , a shamonian , to believe in Prophet Muhammad(saw) , being a prophet of Allah?
However being a true shamonian , you tried to force us muslims to believe in the false deity of the holy spirit. Hmm , flawed logic and bias expectation from you .... as expected from a shamonian.
Since when did any shamonian told the truth about Prophet Muhammad(saw)? However they are extremely good in projecting their fantasy / imagination that muslims are out to kill them.
Oops , it the time of the month for donations to the high priest of shamonian. Out with your check books. BTW , how much have you donated to walid shoebat?
@Sam1528
Not only did you demonstrate once again your reading comprehension problem but also the gulibility of Muslims. I swear you Muslims will believe any lie you tell your selves.
You wrote...
"The reference , ibn kathir , that you provided stated that the defeated christians wish for such conditions upon themselves. They asked for such , they got it and the agreement was signed with the POA to reflect such request. I thought we have gone over this one. Oh yeah , you are a shamonian ... it is expected that you rehash already refuted arguments."
LOL yeah thats belivable. That a group of people would just impose such restrictions on themselves.
So then the Muslims in Iraq and Afganistan should impose such conditions on themselves to the US and Nato Forces? Fair is fair right?
You also wrote...
"Did Prophet Muhammad(saw) passed the judgement? Yes or no? They had an agreement that each were to be judged according to their scripture. The conditions of the agreement was adhered to ... to the letter. Oh yeah , shamonians in the like of you .... agreement means nothing."
Mohamed the Most merciful carried out the judment.
Thank you for proving that Islam is inferior. Since Mohamed had to cary out a judgment not found in the Quran or Sunnah.
you then wrote...
Quran23:5-6 '..Who abstain from sex .. Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond..'
Clear answer by the Quran. My turn , is it biblically ok for you to perform oral sex on a fellow shamonian , say sam shamoun - your high priest?"
First is that from the Umm Al Kitab or the Mutashabit verses?
Second so I guess that means if homosexual are married they can have any kind of sex they want.
Third my high preist is Jesus Christ he is a priest forever in the order of Mechelzedech
As far as the bible is concerend here is what it says.
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." LEV 18:22
"For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error." Romans 1:26-27
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
1 cor 6:9-10
"the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,[a] liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound[b] doctrine," 1 Tim 1:10
As you can see the bible is far superior to the Quran. But I guess you already knew that.
You also wrote...
"You are incapable to provide the definition of homosexuality? Lets say , 2 men are living together and share the same bed. However no sodomy takes place , according to the bible or shamonian scripture , its an abomination?"
This is where you demonstrating your reading comprehension.
Here is what I wrote...
"Good to know that men and woman can be sexually, emotionaly and mentaly attracted to each other, kiss and hug and hold hands, perform oral sex on each other and other things, but just not commit sodomy."
That is the definition of homosexuality.
But I guess in Islam two men can sleep in the same bed, "THIGH" each other, kiss hug, cuddle and thats ok as long as they don't commit sodomy. And if their "married" they can then practice Sodomy according to your verse in the Quran.
So is that what you and your Muslim boy friends do. Just sleep in the same bed and do as the bible says "committing shameless acts with" one another. Just not Sodomy?
@Sam1528 you wrote...
"The 'force laugh' and mentality of a defeated shamonian. If you know your history (you being an amateur archeologist) you should know this was done in stages."
Really? So when is Islam going to get to that final stage of eradicating slavery? Since slavery is still commited by Muslims in the Sudan. Do you know that up until the mid 1990's they had open air slave markets in that capitol of what is now North Sudan.
Slavery wasnt outlawed on the books in KSA until the late 1960's.
BTW can you show me the verses from the UM AL KITAB that abolishes slavery?
You then asked...
"What about penal labour in the US. Isn't that slavery? "
I do not know of any prison system in the US that today uses forced labor. I do know that prison jobs are coveted. See most men unlike Muslims do not like to sit around doing nothing. They like to work to pass the time.
You also wrote...
"Since when did we muslims ever forced you , a shamonian , to believe in Prophet Muhammad(saw) , being a prophet of Allah?"
Under Islamic law if I say anything about your prophet I can be arrested, imprisoned, beatin and even put to death. Or are you saying thats not the case?
You then asked....
"BTW , how much have you donated to walid shoebat? "
Answer Zero. But thanks for reminding me I still have to make that special donation to Sam Shamoun and ABN in the name of Yahya Snow and your fellow SNOWITE Imoremuslim.
Well I think YOUR done here.
You have proven that the Quran is inferior to the bible, that Muslim men can commit shamefull acts with one another as long as they do not commit sodomy and if they marry each other then they can commit sodomy. You proved that your prophet was a Genocidal Maniac and a slave trader, and finaly that Muslims want to practice Islam on everyone but they don't want Islam practiced on themselves.
Radmod said:
So then the Muslims in Iraq and Afganistan should impose such conditions on themselves to the US and Nato Forces? Fair is fair right?
Lupus said:
Is this Shamonian justice. I'm calling you Shamonian because I don't think you're a true Christian. What do Iraqis living centuries after a people who were judged according to their own scripture have do to with it?
You're a very good example of why some people deserve to be treated harshly.
radical moderate ,
Looks like the one who is gullible (100% faith in the high priest sam shamoun) and have comprehension problems is you and only you. You provided the reference of ibn kathir which clearly state that the defeated christians wish for such conditions. What more do you want? Yet you complain.
From you :
'..So then the Muslims in Iraq and Afganistan should impose such conditions on themselves to the US and Nato Forces? Fair is fair right?..'
The muslims in Iraq / Afghan did not ask for such conditions unlike the christians per your posted reference. Are you able to recognise the difference? Of course not .... you are a shamounian. Logic is an alien concept to you being a shamonian.
From you :
'..Mohamed the Most merciful carried out the judment.
Thank you for proving that Islam is inferior. Since Mohamed had to cary out a judgment not found in the Quran or Sunnah..'
Ha ha , you know we muslims have got you where it hurts. You don't like it , do you. Why should judgement on Bani Quraiza be from the Quran and sunnah? The parties signed the agreement - charter of medina that each to be judged by their own scripture. Well well well ... biblical law as it turned out. Your face / ears must be scarlet in embarrassment.
From you :
'..First is that from the Umm Al Kitab or the Mutashabit verses?..'
Why do I need to bother about Umm Al kitab or mutashabihat verses? It clearly state of marriage bonding. Awww , you are not looking for a way out , are you?
From you :
'..Second so I guess that means if homosexual are married they can have any kind of sex they want..'
Hmm , are you talking about biblical / christianity views of homosexual marriages? The Quran is pretty clear with regards to 'homosexual marriages'. Quran4:3 '..Marry women of your choice..'.
From you :
'.."Good to know that men and woman can be sexually, emotionaly and mentaly attracted to each other, kiss and hug and hold hands, perform oral sex on each other and other things, but just not commit sodomy."
That is the definition of homosexuality..'
TQ , for providing the biblical definition of homosexuality , it being sodomy. Back to my question which is identical to yours. Say you did oral sex on your high priest - be it sam shamoun if you are a shamonian or biblical jesus (in person) if you are christian. Where does say its wrong in the bible?
Context of lev18:22 is sodomy between male / male. What is '..men committing shameless acts with men..' per rom1:26-27? John gill exposition states it to be sodomy.
'..the very sin of "sodomy" is here designed..'
john gill
The verses you so posted did not cover this aspect of oral sex between 2 males. You were saying that he bible is superior to the Quran?
From you :
'..But I guess in Islam two men can sleep in the same bed, "THIGH" each other, kiss hug, cuddle and thats ok as long as they don't commit sodomy. And if their "married" they can then practice Sodomy according to your verse in the Quran..'
How do you know that the said 2 muslims men 'thigh' , kiss , hug , cuddle while in bed? In Islam we need 4 witnesses when we accuse of such. Is there any system of justice in biblical law? Since when did the Quran permit same sex marriages?
From you :
'..So is that what you and your Muslim boy friends do. Just sleep in the same bed and do as the bible says "committing shameless acts with" one another. Just not Sodomy?..'
Emotional as usual. Typical shamonian. I am not surprised , there is no biblical law addressing how an accusation of sexual lewdness is to be made. In the bible you can accuse anybody without witness(es) ... you are a prime example of biblical / shamonian justice.
radical moderate ,
Hmm , slavery in sudan? The funny part is that most of the news comes form christian affiliated networks claiming the slaves were sold off for slavery to the mid east. Anybody who has gone to the mid east has yet to meet any of the hundreds of thousands of the so called slaves. Are the slaves hidden under the carpet every time a visitor comes around in any part of the mid east?
Quran90:12-13 '..And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?- .. (It is:) freeing the bondman..'
Are there any verses in the bible that calls to abolish slavery or to free slaves?
You don't know or refuse to acknowledge that penal labour in the US is slavery?
'..due to a lack of restrictions to prevent abuse of the prison labor force, many inmates view the situation very differently. At Soledad near Monterey, California, prisoners earn 45 cents per hour making blue work shirts, which, once deductions are taken out, adds up to $60 for a month of 40-hour work weeks. “They put you on a machine and expect you to put out for them,” Soledad inmate Dino Navarrete told Arm the Spirit. “Nobody wants to do that. These jobs are jokes to most inmates here.”
So why do they do it? In California, prisoners who refuse to work are moved to discliplinary housing and lose canteen priveleges, as well as “good time” credit that slices hard time off their sentences..'
slavery , penal labour
From you :
'..Under Islamic law if I say anything about your prophet I can be arrested, imprisoned, beatin and even put to death. Or are you saying thats not the case?..'
You still have not explain since when did we muslims ever forced you to believe in Prophet Muhammad(saw)? Freedom of speech is not freedom to insult.
Huh? You did not donate anything to walid shoebat? I thought you donated to abn and shoebat has featured there. Don't tell me he did it for free?
Open the check book for donation to your high priest of shamonian. You can put it in my name ... as long as you pay for it. Its ok by me.
How come you are sooo emotional? So far in this exchange we have witness that the bible
(1) does not have laws covering oral sex
(2) no system of justice
when compared to the Quran. You must have been smoking weed again. Tsk tsk .... its bad for you ...
PUBLIC APOLOGY
I stated :
'..TQ , for providing the biblical definition of homosexuality , it being sodomy. Back to my question which is identical to yours. Say you did oral sex on your high priest - be it sam shamoun if you are a shamonian or biblical jesus (in person) if you are christian. Where does say its wrong in the bible?..'
I should not have stated '..or biblical jesus (in person) if you are christian..'. It is unacceptable and I unreservedly apologise.
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