Wednesday, 26 January 2011

Was Abu Sufyan Forced to Convert to Islam? No.

Sadly, Islamophobes on internet forums are suggesting the Prophet Muhammad forced Abu Sufyan bin Harith (also named Sufyan bin Harb) to convert to Islam. This is untrue. NONE of the Quraish (the tribe which Abu Sufyan belonged to) was forced into Islam, as confirmed by Karen Armstrong:

None of the Quraish was forced to become Muslim, but Muhammad’s victory convinced some of his most principled opponents, such as Abu Sufyan, that the old religion had failed. [2]

A quick recap on Abu Sufyan bin Harith bin Abdul Muttalib

He was the cousin of the Prophet (p) as well as his foster brother. He was a poet who antagonized Prophet Muhammad (p) during his Prophetic mission.

His enmity to the Prophet (p) degenerated into full scale war against him on the field of battle. He would also make fun of him with his tongue at public gatherings until light of Iman (faith) entered his heart and his breast became expanded for the acceptance of Islam. [3]

The expert, Sheikh Al Mubarakpuri, on Abu Sufyan’s conversion

When piecing together actualities from the plethora of early traditions we need EXPERTS to sift through them and analyse and subsequently conclude according to a criterion of reliability, context and a process of harmonization.

Sheikh Safiur Rahman al Mubarakpuri describes the conversion of Abu Sufyan:

After making full preparation, the Prophet (p) proceeded to Makkah at the head of ten thousand soldiers on the 10th of Ramadan 8 AH… [4]

…At Al-Abwa, the Muslims came across Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith and Abdullah bin Umaiyah, the Prophet’s cousins, but, on account of the harm they had inflicted, and their satiric language against the believers, they were not welcomed. [4]

Ali (ra) addressed Abu Sufyan to go and request the Prophet (p) for pardon and confess his ill-behaviour in a manner similar to that of the brothers of Yusuf (the Prophet Joseph, p):


They said: ‘By Allah! Indeed Allah has preferred you above us, and we have been sinners’ [12:91]

Abu Sufyan followed Ali’s advice , to which the Prophet (p) quoted Allah’s Words:


He said: No reproach on you this day, may Allah forgive you, and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!’” [12:92]

Abu Sufyan recited some verses paying a generous tribute to the Prophet (p) and professing Islam as his only religion [1] [4]

So this was the point Abu Sufyan accepted Islam – clearly he was NOT forced to accept Islam, despite there being threats to his life as well as opposition to him due to his past [5]. In fact Abu Sufyan’s wife converted to Islam as well despite having chewed the liver of Hamza (the Prophet’s uncle) [6]

Abu Sufyan's conversion described by Sa'd Yusuf Abu Aziz
Sa’d Yusuf Abu Aziz also describes Abu Sufyan’s conversion which clearly illustrates Abu Sufyan was intent on gaining the pleasure of Prophet Muhammad (p) - he was not coerced at the point of a sword:

The light of faith shone into the heart of Abu Sufyan while the Messenger of Allah was preparing for the conquest of Makkah. Abu Sufyan and his son, Ja’far left Makkah for Madinah with the sole intention of submitting to the Lord of the worlds. When the Prophet (p) saw him, he turned away from him. He humbled himself before the Prophet (p) imploring him for the pleasure. He would earn his pleasure or else he would hold the hand of his son and both of them would walk in the wilderness until they would die of hunger and thirst.


The Prophet eventually relented toward him and he became a good Muslim afterwards. [3]

Abu Sufyan’s conversion was sincere

Of course, if a conversion is forced it is not going to be a faithful “conversion”. Abu Sufyan’s conversion was sincere, so much so that he even put his life on the line by standing firm in protecting the Prophet (p) in the Battle of Hunayn [7]

Abu Sufyan’s sincerity in Islam is highlighted further by his words at the time of his passing away:

Abu Ishaq As-Sibai said: when Abu Sufyan bin Al Harith bin Abdul Muttalib approached his death he said “Do not weep over my death for since I became a Muslim, I have not been tarnished [8]

Conclusion

Islamophobes isolate narrations and add their agenda-based spin to such in order to prop up their misguided argumentation. We should always be mindful of learning from those who are privy to more knowledge than folk on Islamophobic forums. The SCHOLARS are people we should be relying upon for Islamic instructions and teachings.

The Quran teaches us there is no compulsion in religion

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower [Quran 2:256, Pikthal translation]

Sheikh Yasir Qadhi’s speech on Islamophobia

Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

Footnotes

[1] Abu Sufyan accepted Islam at this point and thereafter became a good Muslim. The Prophet (p) loved him and even testified that he would be in Paradise. See Zadul-Ma’ad 2/162. 163 (Footnote from page 462 of Arraheequl Makhtoum, Safiurrahman Al Mubarakpuri, Darusslam, 2002)

[2] Islam - A Short History, Karen Armstrong, Phoenix Press, 2001, p20

[3] Sa’d Yusuf Abu Aziz, Men and Women around the Messenger (p), Darussalam, 2009, p281- 282

[4] Arraheequl Makhtoum, Safiurrahman Al Mubarakpuri, Darusslam, 2002, 461-462

[5] Before they got near the camp, they met Abbas (ra), the Prophet’s uncle. He informed Abu Sufyan of the situation and advised him to accept Islam and persuade his people to surrender before Muhammad (p); otherwise his head would be struck off.
Under the prevailing compelling circumstances, Abu Sufyan went in the company of Abbas (ra) seeking the chance of meeting the Prophet (p). The Muslims were furious to see Abu Sufyan and wanted to kill him on the spot. But the two men managed, not without difficulties, to see Allah’s Messenger (p) who advised that they see him the following day. The Prophet (p) addressed Abu Sufyan saying “Woe to you! Isn’t it time for you to bear witness to the Oneness of Allah and Prophethood of Muhammad?” Here he began to request the Prophet (p) in the most sincere words that testify to the Prophet’s generosity and mild temper begging for pardon and forgiveness, and professing wholeheartedly the new Faith.
[Arraheequl Makhtoum, Safiurrahman Al Mubarakpuri, Darusslam, 2002, p462-463]

[6] Upon the conquest of Mecca, the Meccans gathered to pledge loyalty to the Prophet (p), this included the wife of Abu Sufyan:
…Hind bint Utbah, Abu Sufyan’s wife, came in the group of women disguised lest the Prophet (p) should recognize and account for her, having chewed the liver of Hamzah (ra), his uncle.
The Prophet (p) accepted their allegiance on condition that they associate none with Allah, to which they immediately agreed. He added that they should not practice theft. Here Hind complained that her husband, Abu Sufyan, was tight-fisted. Her husband interrupted granting all his worldly possessions to her. The Prophet (p) laughed and recognized the woman. She requested him to extend his pardon to her and to forgive all her previous sins. Some other conditions were imposed including the prohibition of adultery, killing of infants or fabricating falsehood. To all these orders, Hind replied positively swearing that she would not have come to take an oath of allegiance if she had had the least seed of disobedience to him. On returning home, she broke her idol admitting her delusion over stone-gods.
[Arraheequl Makhtoum, Safiurrahman Al Mubarakpuri, Darusslam, 2002, p470-471]

[7] Abu Sufyan was by the side of the Prophet (p) holding the rein of his riding animal fending off attacks against the Prophet (p). When the dust of the intense battle subsided and the Muslims obtained a resounding victory, the Messenger of Allah became even more fond of Abu Sufyan. He was amongst those who were steadfast with him on that day. He demonstrated the sincerity of his Islam. [Sa’d Yusuf Abu Aziz, Men and Women around the Messenger (p), Darussalam, 2009, p283]

[8] Sa’d Yusuf Abu Aziz, Men and Women around the Messenger (p), Darussalam, 2009, p284

37 comments:

Radical Moderate said...

WOW talk about desperate, the man only accepted Islam when there was no other choice.

He was a renowned swords man and fighter of the Quresh, and he became a renowned swords man and fighter for Mohamed.

He was a leader of the Quresh, he became a leader of the Muslims.

Nothing changed, he just switched sides when there was no alternative.

Here a a quote from a Islamic website.

Abu Sufyan said...
"When the movement of Islam became vigorous and well-established and news spread of the Prophet's advance to liberate Makkah, the world caved in on me. I felt trapped. 'Where shall I go?' I asked myself. 'And with whom?' To my wife and children, I said: 'Get ready to leave Makkah. Muhammad's advance is imminent. I shall certainly be killed. I shall be given no quarter should the Muslims recognize me.' "
Source

Does this sound like a man who had any other option other then to accept Islam or die?

His family then convinces him that there is no place for them or him to go since "Arabs and non-Arabs have pledged their obedience to Muhammad and accepted his religion. You are still bent on opposing him whereas you might have been the first to support and help him.'"

It was only after he realized that he and his family had no other place to go but death fighting Mohamed, or almost certain death fleeing in the desert that he came to realize that if he accepted Islam he might live and possibly obtain a position of power.

Better to join them then to fight and die.

Would he of converted if Mohamed was not on his way to conquer Mecca? Would he have converted if he was not in fear for his life? Would he have converted if he and his family had any other place to go?

Radical Moderate said...

Compare Abu Sufyan conversion to that of a real conversion. That of Paul.

Paul opposed the early Christian movement so much that he persecuted them, hunted them down to face the Sanhedrin, and face almost certain death. This man was a enemy of God.

Was he facing death on the Road to Damascus? Was he facing a Christian army of 10,000? The answer is no, instead he was on his way to Damascus under the authority and power of the Jewish government supported by the full weight of the Roman Empire?

Instead he get's knocked down by the truth, he is physically blinded by the power of this light. To the point were something like scales fell from his eyes.

This is the power of God, to turn the heart of Men, even a man who hates God and his people so much that he persecutes them to the point of death. God takes Pauls heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh.

This is not a conversion done at the last hour, when there is nothing left and no place to go, but certain death. No instead this is a conversion that takes place do to Gods providence, not the providence of a man's army and sword.

Second notice how it changed Paul, he went from a man of persecution and hate, to a man of Love and compassion. He did not just change sides, not he CHANGED.

RefutingActs17 said...

Hahaha - you're a funny guy.

Radical Moderate said...

RefutingActs17 said...
Hahaha - you're a funny guy.

Wow thats a refutation, you put a lot of thought into that

Anonymous said...

Sad thing is, I actually think he probably did put a lot of thought into it. That's just all he could come up with, thus showing the extent of his reasoning powers. Actually, I think it rather shows just how limited the evidence is for someone trying to work with it to make it say something else.

RefutingActs17 said...

Oh, make no mistake - it wasn't a refutation.

I was just simply expressing my amusement at your futile efforts.

;)

Anonymous said...

Now just try to imagine our amusement.

Yahya Snow said...

@Radical Moderate

Stop please just stop.

You wrote:

Abu Sufyan said...
"When the movement of Islam became vigorous and well-established and news spread of the Prophet's advance to liberate Makkah, the world caved in on me. I felt trapped. 'Where shall I go?' I asked myself. 'And with whom?' To my wife and children, I said: 'Get ready to leave Makkah. Muhammad's advance is imminent. I shall certainly be killed. I shall be given no quarter should the Muslims recognize me.' "

----If you read the post you would have realised the Muslims did recognize him and he was not killed.

In addition you will realise he was desperate to gain the pleasure and forgiveness of the Prophet Muhammad (p), so much so that he was willing to go out into the wilderness to die IF he was rejected by Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad (p) accepted him despite the fact Abu Sufyan was one of the biggest opponents of Islam - he was willing to kill the Prophet and destroy Islam - yet after his conversion, in the battle of Hunayn he was fighint to PROTECT the Prophet (p) and DEFEND Islam.

THAT is quite a turn around!


It is only ONE conversion story out of thousands.

The conversion story of Umar is quite remarkable too as he was on his way to KILL the Prophet yet was informed one of his family members had converted to Islam, thus took a detour and wound up CONVERTING to Islam as the Quran entered hi heart.

This is the power of God, to turn the heart of Men, even a man who hates God and his people so much that he is willing to persecute them to the point of death. God takes Umar's heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh.

This is not a conversion done at the last hour, when there is nothing left and no place to go, but certain death. No instead this is a conversion that takes place do to Gods providence, not the providence of a man's army and sword.

We can reel off many others but we have no real desire and what has been presented is more than sufficient to show God can guide even the most vehement enemies of the Truth.

I call you to Islam - God can guide you - it is not too late - inshaAllah

Yahya Snow said...

Paul's conversion story, you as a trinitarian Christian advance the idea that your god lived on Earth for roughly 30 years yet did not sanction any NT text (none of them were in existent at the time) and nor did he establish the church and church doctrines BUT instead relied on a bounty hunter (Paul) who he NEVER met in the place of those he did meet.

Fishy?

What are you trying to say? Your god could not establish the belief system and NT in 30 years?

I smell something extremely fishy as to Paul's "conversion".

I addition, Paul became a leader through his conversion, an authority, something which he never had prior to his conversion. Using your circumspect mode of deduction this means his conversion was insincere. Now do you see why folk such as RefutingActs17 are laughing?

Umar was a hugely influential person prior to his conversion, why would he risk his position in society (as well as his life) by converting to an unpopulr faith? Sincerity, God entered guidance in his heart.

The same applies for Abu Bakr's conversion.

And for those of reflection, the beauty of Hind's conversion as well as Abu Sufyan's conversion would be illustrated by their sincerity.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow
You said ... Stop please just stop.

Stop telling the truth, stop exposing your nonsense. Don't think so.

You said...
"----If you read the post you would have realised the Muslims did recognize him and he was not killed."

First I never said that they did not recognize him. Abu Sufyan in his own words, felt his "World had Caved in"... He felt "Trapped"

And he knew he would be killed if he did not convert to Islam.

He wanted his family to flee, and they told him they had no place to go since everyone around them was Muslim, even the Non Muslim tribes supported Mohamed.

Let's look at what happend when he went to beg for his life. He first covered his face, to hide his identity. When he saw the warlord Mohamed he uncovered his face. What did Mohamed do? He turned his face away, multiple times.

When the Muslims saw Mohamed looking away from him they too shunned him. ABU BAKR "met me and violently turned away."

He then looked to Umar,"my eyes pleading for his compassion" but he found even greater harshness. Umar even incited a Ansar against him.

Even his own uncle would not intercede for him.

"I shall not speak to him at all after I have seen him turning away from you"

After this he says "Anxiety and grief took hold of me".

Does any of this sound to you like a man who had a choice in the matter? He had no place to go, his life was over, he would of been killed had he not converted to ISLAM. Even if he wasn't killed his position in life was over, he would no longer be a leader of his tribe, his wealth would be gone, family taken, sold into slavery is the best he could hope for.

Tell me what would of happened to Abu Sufyian if Mohamed had not accepted his conversion?

Only a Muslim would believe he converted out of true repentance, only a Muslim would believe he was not forced to convert to Islam. He had not choice but death, or best slavery.

Anonymous said...

Follow Jesus or Follow Paul?
The New Testament gives us a choice; either we follow Jesus Christ, or the anti-Christ Paul of Tarsus: Each one demands his followers to accept his teachings:
Be ye followers of me… that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered [them] to you. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
“If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed” (John 8:31)
Amazing, the former preached against the teachings of Jesus, and the latter, (Jesus) teaches that salvation is only attained by following him. According to Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:20-21, and Micah 6:7-8, a man is responsible for his own sin. Jesus rejected the Pauline doctrine of “vicarious atonement”. Compare the two passages below:
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Hebrews 9:22)
Jesus was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin? And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazorenes, Lection 33, verses 1-2)

Anonymous said...

Radical Moderate said...
WowmanofBlasphamy said...

"My question is which faith, Judaism or Christianity, or which scripture will lead me to paradise?"

The answer for you. You have no hope of salvation, your done. Careless words you typed on the internet sealed your fate. You have no hope, of even having hope. You did the one thing you should not of done. You Blasphemed against Gods Holy Spirit. You have no hope.

The sad part is, you honestly thought you were doing good when you typed the vile things you typed. You boast and brag in your rebellion against GOD as if you were something special.

I'm sure to your momma you are, but your just another blasphemer who God has removed his restraining hand, a dime a dozen.

I have no glad tidings for you. I only have bad news and worse news for you and even worse news beyond that.

The bad: your going to hell.
The worse news: There is nothing that can be done.
The even worse news: You wont be alone.

I don't know if I should pray that you have a very long life, knowing what awaits you after you die. Or pray that death takes you quickly. To be honest I am torn on that.

I say this only because to some death is a mercy, and some pray for death, and death will not come.

I honestly don't know what would be more merciful for you.

But I do know this, it would be cruel of me to lead you on as if you had hope. And I not that cruel.

So I will pray that you have a long life. That you achieve every petty selfish goal you set for yourself. May you be richer then BILL GATES. May everything you do be met with the greatest success. May you have throngs of fans. May you never no hunger, thirst or pain. May you always feel joy, and never bitterness. May you receive every thing you desire and everything you think you deserve.

Because in the end, you will get just that, what you justly deserve. And for that I am truly sorry. Because i do not wish that for my worst enemy.

January 27, 2011 8:08 PM

Ibn said...

Anonymous:The answer for you. You have no hope of salvation, your done. Careless words you typed on the internet sealed your fate. You have no hope, of even having hope. You did the one thing you should not of done. You Blasphemed against Gods Holy Spirit. You have no hope.

Who says there's no hope? Jesus died for ALL sins. If he died for ALL sins, he also died for the sin of blaspheming Holy Spirit. Come to think of it, since he died for ALL sins, he also died for the sin of not believing he died for all sins of mankind. Hence, we non-Christians are saved regardless.

Anonymous said...

Robert Spencer vs. Imam Moustafa Zayed Tonight on ABN!


The debate will take place at 8:00 P.M. (Eastern Standard) tonight on ABN. If you don't get ABN via satellite, you can watch live via the internet

Radical Moderate said...

@Ibn

Thank you for demonstrating the common trait that seems to exist in all Muslims, a sever reading comprehension problem.

First who ever this "Anonymous" poster is, he or she was reposting a post I made on the AM blog.

Second, can you show me in the bible where it says that Jesus died for all SINS, and can you show me where it says that that the sins of those who do not believe will be forgiven even if they don't believe?

Ibn said...

FatGuy:..can you show me in the bible where it says that Jesus died for all SINS, and can you show me where it says that that the sins of those who do not believe will be forgiven even if they don't believe?

That Jesus died for ALL sins is a standard Christian belief. You may not hold on to it, but I wasn't arguing against your specific convictions, but what Christians or more precisely non-Calvinists generally believe in.

Ibn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ibn said...

According to the following website,

"All of mankind’s sins have been paid for by Christ at the Hill of Cavalry in Jerusalem. "

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/salvation_webpages/07-christ_died_for_our_sins.htm

Anonymous said...

@Ibn
Radical Moderate here. To lazy to log in.
Ibn thanks for demonstrating once again your problem with reading comprehension.

You said...
"That Jesus died for ALL sins is a standard Christian belief."


First that is not standard Christian belief I would say that is not even a Christian belief. Can you show me any group or any biblical teaching that says Christ died for the Sin of Blasphemy against the holy spirit, or the sin of disbelief?

Christ said very clearly that the sin of Blasphemy against the holy spirit will NOT BE FORGIVEN.

You then posted a website saying...
"All of mankind’s sins have been paid for by Christ at the Hill of Cavalry in Jerusalem"

Well you got me there. NOT!!! I have the bible and Jesus saying that sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. You have a website saying that Jesus died for "all of man of mankind's sins" HMMM WHICH SHOULD I BELIEVE the BIBLE OR IBN's WEBSITE?

Putting aside the fact that I am sure this author did not intend to include the sin of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in the statement "all of mankind's sins". The author says that in order to be forgiven...

"all that sinner needs to do to be saved is to admit their sin and turn to Christ in faith for the forgiveness of sins, believing that Christ and Christ alone will save."

So in order to be forgiven you must turn to Christ in repentance and believe that Christ alone will save. How can some one turn to Christ and believe if THEY DON"T BELIEVE???????

Anonymous said...

@Ibn
Radical Moderate again.

Just to let you know what is Standard Christian belief, in a nut shell.

You must believe in Christ to have your sins forgiven by Christs atoning sacrifice. And the only way a person can believe is if they are first called by God to repent and believe.

Now where reformists and synergist differ is on, once a person is called can they refuse God. In other words can they continue to disbelieve. There is more on that but that's it in a nut shell.

Now since both agree that in order to believe you must first be called by the Father, then how can someone like yourself, womanofBlashemy and others on this blog believe if they have Blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. THE FATHER WILL NOT CALL YOU TO BELIEVE.

So Ibn that is why you and WomanofBlasphmy and others can do what you do. That is why you will never be saved, it is because you will never believe because of the careless words you and others have typed on the internet. The Father will not call you.

NOTE: If you have not said the vile things against the holy spirit that others have said then I apologies for lumping you in with the chafe.

Ibn said...

Fatman claims I lack reading comprehension yet he is the one who is unable to distinguish between an assertion and an argument. The assertion is "Jesus died for All sins of man". The argument is that based on the aforementioned assertion, Jesus must have died for unbelief. Otherwise, he did not die for all sins. If he did not die for all sins, then his sacrifice is no different from sacrificing a goat since neither ompletely absolves man from his sins.

Is the belief that Jesus died for all sins a general Christian belief? I showed a website saying yes, but Fatman whines, "HMMM WHICH SHOULD I BELIEVE the BIBLE OR IBN's WEBSITE?"

Who cares what you believe in? I was talking about the general view, and the website I linked to confirms my position. Now, it is true that the website also goes on to say that people must believe in Jesus to be saved. So? All that shows is that such a view contradicts the premise that Jesus died for all sins. Once again, it is Fatman who has a problem reading.

Ibn said...

"If he did not die for all sins, then his sacrifice is no different from sacrificing a goat since neither ompletely absolves man from his sins."

To add to the above, Christians believe that God requires a sacrifice in order to forgive sins, and Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice. However, if he died for some sins, then the sacrifice is not ultimate. If the sacrifice is not ultimate, God is yet to forgive mankind.

Yahya Snow said...

@radical moderate

Please stop with the melodramatics, nobody is trying to deceive you.

The point of this article was to show folk that Abu Sufyan was not forced to convert via the point of the sword - rabble rousers on the net have been claiming so.

If the conversion is not impressive to you then that is down to you.

I find it impressive that a man who wanted to kill the Prophet for such a long while wound up converting and protecting the Prophet (p). It's a sincere conversion.

If you want some "impressive" conversions I could show you a few but that is not the point.

You can beleive whatever you want - the facts have been presented.

Peace

Yahya Snow said...

Oh Radical,

As for you condemning the person who (allegedly) spoke against the holy spirit to hell.

Please stop.

God can forgive whomever he wants. All this person needs to do is REPENT.

And as ibn has presented - according to your co-religionists Jesus died for all sins.




Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahay Snow

You said...
"The point of this article was to show folk that Abu Sufyan was not forced to convert via the point of the sword - rabble rousers on the net have been claiming so."

Lets review.
In his own words...
He "felt trapped." What does that mean when someone feels trapped. It means they have no place to go, they're NOT FREE.

"The world caved in on me"...I SHALL CERTAINLY BE KILLED"

He tells his family to leave, they inform him that they have no place to go. And his family pleads with him to accept Islam because had he done so in the begging he would of been "one those to support him in the begging" meaning he would of had a place of power and authority.

So did someone phyicaly put him on his knees, put a sword to his throat and tell him to accept Islam. NOOOO.

However I ask again what other choice did he have. He in his own word's said he would "CERTAINLY been killed"

Are you telling me that if he hadn't accepted Islam his life, family, property, and position of authority in his tribe would of been spared?

You also made mention that he later went on to fight in Jihad with Mohamed even protecting his life.

Yeah he was a excellent swords men when he wasnt a Muslim, he was a warrior for the pagans. All he did was switch sides.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow

You brought up Umar, as another example of conversion story. Even claiming that your god replaced his heart of stone with heart of flesh.

Well let's take a look at Uthmans conversion.

He was on his way to kill Mohamed this is true. He heard about his sister converting to Islam, and went and punched her in the face, giving her a fat lip and drawing blood.

He then relents and listens to the verse she was reciting. He then has a change of heart and goes and converts to Islam.

So I would agree with you that this would be considered a sincere convert.

However did your god take his heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. DONT THINK SO.

He was a man of violence before Islam was a man of violence when he died.

Two men were quarrelling
and went to Mohamed for judgment. Mohamed ruled in one mans favor, and the other man was not happy. So Mohamed sent them to Umar for a appeal.

Umar said to the appellant
"Wait for a while. I will soon give my decision that would satisfy you."

"Umar went inside the house and brought his sword. With the sword Umar smote the appellant saying, "Woe to you, you regard yourself a Muslim and yet choose to appeal to me against the decision of the Holy Prophet. You are an infidel, and the penalty for your infidelity is death."

The only thing that changed was who his violence and hostility were directed towards. That's it.

Jesus said "you live by the sword you will die by the sword" The life and death of Umar proved Jesus to be right.

Source

Radical Moderate said...

@Ibn

Lets take a look.
Jesus says very clearly All sins will be forgiven except the sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit.

The bible says that eternal life is for those that BELIEVE IN HIM.

Jesus prays to the father "This is eternal life that they may believe in you the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent"

The sin of Blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven "In this age or the next".
And you must believe in the Father and Jesus to inherit eternal life.

How you can conclude that Jesus died to forgive the sin of Blasphemy and unbelief is well beyond anyone with a rudimentary level of reading comprehension.

I can see why Islam appeals to you. How can you be expected to comprehend what you read when you don't understand what you are reading.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahay Snow

"Oh Radical,

As for you condemning the person who (allegedly) spoke against the holy spirit to hell."

First it's not allegedly she did, as well as a few others. Calling the holy spirit evil, calling him a liar, or words the effect are Blasphemy against Gods Holy Spirit.

I am not condemning them, what they said condemns them.

"God can forgive whomever he wants. All this person needs to do is REPENT."

Putting aside the Islamic concept of sin and repentance.

If you sin against the Holy Spirit you can not REPENT OF THAT. It is impossible. You will not have the desire to do so or the will. Your done. NO HOPE.

The reason someone can type and say the things so causally as WomanofBlasphmy has as well as other's. Is because God has already removed his restraining hand from them. There is no going back.

@Yahya you said...
"And as ibn has presented - according to your co-religionists Jesus died for all sins."

Oh so sorry that "co-relgiounist" said very clearly you MUST BELIEVE in order to be forgiven. So if you don't believe you will not be forgiven.
From the "Co Religionists website"

"all that sinner needs to do to be saved is to admit their sin and turn to Christ in faith for the forgiveness of sins, believing that Christ and Christ alone will save."

So that just destroys Ibn right there. Really man learn how to read.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahay Snow

One more thing on Umar, Even your prophet said Umar had a heart harder then stone.
Regarding the Captives of Badr, Abu Bakr took a lienent position, and Umar took a harder view.

Mohamed said to Abu Bakr and Umar
"Almighty God softens the hearts of some people-softer than milk"(Referring to Abu Bakr). "And He hardens the hearts of some people-harder than stone."(Referring to UMAR)

UMAR had a heart harder the STONE.

So much for god taking his heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh.

Source

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahay Snow... Oh this just keeps getting better.

Getting back to Abu Sufyan.

"Abu Sufiyan the leader of the Quraish visited Madina to arrive at some amicable settlement...and Umar made him understand that there could no longer be any reconciliation with the Quraish unless they accepted Islam. The peace efforts having proved futile, Abu Sufiyan returned to Mecca."

So there you have it, no reconcilation, no peace unless they accepted ISLAM.

But it gets better, well worse for your pathetic argument.

"Hadrat Abbas met Abu Sufiyan and advised him that the best course for him and the Quraish was to place themselves at the mercy of the Holy Prophet. Abu Sufiyan agreed to wait on ~he Holy Prophet to get terms."

So the best course of action was to be placed at the Mercy of your Warlord.

And still get's better.

"Hadrat Umar strode forward Hurriedly, and addressing the Holy Prophet said. "Permit me to behead Abu Sufiyan the enemy of Islam." The Holy Prophet said, "Umar, wait for a while and see."

So Hadrat Umar wants to behead Abu Sufyan your Warlard wants to wait a little bit. Wait for what you may ask?

"At the Muslim camp, Abu Sufiyan was converted to Islam. That was the end of the Quraish opposition."

So with no peace possible unless the Quresh accept Islam, and a Muslim wanting to behead Abu Sufyan, your warlord waits, for Abu Sufyan to convert. And what a surprise he does. Wow that's a shocker.

If you can't beat them might as well join them.

Source

Ibn said...

FatIdiot: How you can conclude that Jesus died to forgive the sin of Blasphemy and unbelief is well beyond anyone with a rudimentary level of reading comprehension.I can see why Islam appeals to you. How can you be expected to comprehend what you read when you don't understand what you are reading.

Your beef is with the general Christian populace who believe that Jesus died for all sins, not me since I based my argument on the popular view. I clarified this in my last post as well, but unfortunately, your reading comprehension is abysmally low as your popularity with women.

Radical Moderate said...

@Ibn

You said...
"Your beef is with the general Christian populace who believe that Jesus died for all sins, not me since I based my argument on the popular view."

First it is not the general Christian belief that Christ died for the sin of Blasphemy against the holy spirit or for the sin of unbelief as I have demonstrated. Second you did not base your argument on the popular view. The popular view is what Christ said, all sins are forgivable except the sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit, and that you NEED TO BELIEVE in CHRIST in order to be forgiven.

You took a phrase that a man said on a website that Christ died for all sins. Again I guarantee you if you were to ask him if the sin of blasphemy against the holy spirit is forgivable he would answer NOOOOO. If he doesn't then he has the same reading comprehension problem as you.

Second the website clearly says as I have posted a number of times that you need to believe in CHRIST to receive forgiveness. So how could Christ of died for the sin of un belief and unbelievers be forgiven by his blood if in order to receive his atoning sacrifice you must belief in him?

It's simply amazing what you Muslims have to do to deny Christ.

Radical Moderate said...

On another note, Jet fighters are buzzing the crowds, tanks have sealed off Cairo, and more Army troops are reported on their way to the square. This is going to get ugly.

Anonymous said...

hey Radical Moderate did you ever answer Sam's Question on the biblical definition of eternal life.

If you can't or don't want to then keep that sewer mouth of yours closed.
Put up or shut up.
You come on this blog to spark animosity and your comments are always answered and you can't even answer a simple question that you said belongs at the "kiddie table".
That certainly shows you have very WEAK FAITH, and you come on this blog and make your distasteful comments to bolster that WEAK FAITH of yours. I pity the fool.

Yahya Snow said...

Radical,

The post was designed to show Abu Sufyan was not forced to convert at the point of a sword - a rabble rouser in a comment section was suggesting this - hence my response.

You have brought into play the idea of whether he converted due to him having no other recourse. In all fairness you have raised a natural question. The source material does show he was not interested in preserving his life as he was willing to walk into the wilderness and die if he was not accepted by the Prophet. [see the narration cited in the footnote section in the post]

Essentially, the Prophet saved his life (as well as his son's life) by forgiving him - by the Will of Allah.

So we see Abu Sufyan was not converting to merely preserve his life as he had no care for his existence at that point.

Furthermore, we have also seen Abu Sufyan's conversion was sincere as he was fighting to PROTECT the Prophet despite others having fled the battle field [narration cited in the footnote section in the post]. In addition, on his death bed Abu Sufyan expressed his delight in Islam which further shows a sincerity.

Now, if you converted simply out of having no other choice you would hardly be risking your life on the battlefield defending the Prophet of the said religion whilst others were fleeing - you too, would flee - if your conversion was insincere or a forced one.

Yahya Snow said...

Radical,

You then cited this from a website (one which I am unfamiliar with - is it reliable?):

""Abu Sufiyan the leader of the Quraish visited Madina to arrive at some amicable settlement...and Umar made him understand that there could no longer be any reconciliation with the Quraish unless they accepted Islam. The peace efforts having proved futile, Abu Sufiyan returned to Mecca.""

Think about it, his group had broke the Treaty and there was a state of war. Theologically, it would be the duty of the Muslim to advise them to accept Islam in order to avoid the war. There is no problem here. We have already seen, Abu Sufyan was a vehement enemy of the Prophet (p) but immediately prior to the conquest of Mecca he became a Muslim despite willing to kill himself and his son if he was not accepted into Islam.

 
So the argument of him being forced into Islam to avoid war does not stand up.

Then you wrote:

"But it gets better, well worse for your pathetic argument.
"Hadrat Abbas met Abu Sufiyan and advised him that the best course for him and the Quraish was to place themselves at the mercy of the Holy Prophet. Abu Sufiyan agreed to wait on ~he Holy Prophet to get terms.""

And what is the problem here? NOTHING. Nobody is forcing him to convert. I have no idea why this is so important to your "argument".

You then start to insult the Prophet (p):

So the best course of action was to be placed at the Mercy of your Warlord.

Grow up and develop an ounce of consistency. Would you call Abraham, Moses and Joshua "warlords"? No. So please stop calling the Prophet (p) such. Grow up.

The Prophet (p) had fight his wars - for both theological reasons and for the survival/betterment of the community.

You have some nerve, under a previous handle you were calling for the use of Iraq as a battelfield to war with Iran!

Grow up.

You then cite the website again and add a bit of commentary:

""Hadrat Umar strode forward Hurriedly, and addressing the Holy Prophet said. "Permit me to behead Abu Sufiyan the enemy of Islam." The Holy Prophet said, "Umar, wait for a while and see."
So Hadrat Umar wants to behead Abu Sufyan your Warlard wants to wait a little bit. Wait for what you may ask?

You miss the context anyway. Abu Sufyan was heading to the Muslim camp as an enemy - this was in the theatre of war. Umar had every right to have a desire to behead him as he was considered an enemy combatant heading his direction. The US military offer tea and crumpets to folk from Al Qaeda wh are heading their way in the theatre of war (Afghanistan)? Get real!

As for the Prophet telling Umar to wait...that just shows he was not trigger happy and had patience plus wisdom.

And again you start the immature insulting of "war lord". See above and grow up.

The you finish off with a conclusion that opposes what was presented in the post - did you even bother to read the material in the post?:

So with no peace possible unless the Quresh accept Islam, and a Muslim wanting to behead Abu Sufyan, your warlord waits, for Abu Sufyan to convert. And what a surprise he does. Wow that's a shocker.
If you can't beat them might as well join them.

All this was answered above. Abu Sufyan was not interested in preserving his life. In any case, if Abu Sufyan did not convert to Islam he could have fled. He did not. He wanted to join the Muslims and he did. He remained a faithful Muslim to his death.

This is hardly the way of somebody who was forced into it.

Think about it, if you were forced into Islam, would you be a faithful Muslim? No!

May Allah guide us all. Ameen


















Yahya Snow said...

Radical,

As for Umar's conversion.

Erm yes his heart was changed. He became a TRUE montheist and followed Abrahamic monotheism. You, as a Christian, do not follow pure montheism.May Allah change your heart so you can desist from worshippng a man and begin to worship God alone. May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

You wrote:

One more thing on Umar, Even your prophet said Umar had a heart harder then stone.



Regarding the Captives of Badr, Abu Bakr took a lienent position, and Umar took a harder view.
Mohamed said to Abu Bakr and Umar


"Almighty God softens the hearts of some people-softer than milk"(Referring to Abu Bakr). "And He hardens the hearts of some people-harder than stone."(Referring to UMAR)
UMAR had a heart harder the STONE.

You added your bits to it in order to make it out as thought the Prophet was accusing umar of having a heart harder than stone. This is untrue. Your devious modes are quite transparent.
As for Umar's heart you FABRICATED that by adding your own bits to it. Why did you do that? Why so dishonest? Is this why?:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/01/christian-missionaries-dishonest-past.html

Why did you not quote the website further? I know why becuase the Prophet comapred Umar with NOAH and MOSES (pbut) - thus Umar was NOT being accused of having a heart as hard as stone. People have different qualities some are lenient with noble intentions whilst others can be stern with noble intentions too. BOTH are justified modes - it does not mean one's heart is harder than stone if they opt for the sterner approach. Are you going to accuse Moses, Noah, Abraham and Joshua of all having hearts harder than stone? I did not think so!

Here is what you missed out:

Turning to Abu Bakr who had counselled a lenient view, the Holy Prophet said:
"Abu Bakr you are like Abraham who said, 'He who follows me is one of us, and he who disobeys me, then O God, You are gracious enough to forgive'. And Abu Bakr you are also like Jesus who said, 'If you punish them they are Your servants, and if You forgive them, You are All Powerful, Mighty and Wise."
Turning to Umar, the Holy Prophet said:
Umar, you are like Noah who said, 'O God, do not leave on the earth a single unbeliever.' And Umar you are also like Moses who said, 'O God destroy their properties and harden their hearts so that they are not converted till they have suffered punishment."

I bid you good night!