Monday, 10 January 2011

Islamophobes Dare Not Challenge Hamza Yusuf, Yasir Qadhi, Waleed Basyouni et al

Islamophobes challenged by Muslims – Muslim Scholars are Helping to Eradicate Islamophobia

No Islamophobia = No cash (£$£$) for the Islamophobes

OK, we all know there is a bundle of uncouth and zealous Islamophobes on the internet who literally make it their business (£$£$) to deride Muslims and mudsling at Islam in attempts to frame Islam for 9/11 and other deplorable terrorist actions.

Click to enlarge
Have you ever noticed these Islamophobes champion themselves as folk who have a better grasp of Islam than the Muslim scholars (Muslim scholars have denounced terrorism as unislamic by the tons)? Have you ever noticed the Islamophobes wheel out the same unsupported and uncared for extremist ignoramuses as “representatives” of Islam – such as Anjem Choudary, Omar Bakri Mohammad etc...? Why do our Islamophobic opponents avoid confronting the experts on Islam?

The answer is simple; the Islamophobe’s disingenuous charade ends when up against the learned. You see, the Islamophobe is flimsy and a paper champion who operates his/her dirty game in the den of ignorance and thus runs at the sight of a true Muslim scholar.

Islamophobes, please roll up with your donation-paid-for-cameras..

 However, the Islamophobe has a perfect opportunity to remove the taint of yellow from themselves and confront ACTUAL Muslim SCHOLARS who are taken as representatives by the Muslim community. If you think 9/11 is a result of Islam then take your tired protestations and befool yourself in front of the learned at the Islamic World International Conference (Georgia International Convention Center). Go on, I dare you; you may actually learn something and even become Muslims.

I very much doubt any Islamophobe will be in attendance. I wonder why…

 I wonder what the deluded folk who actually fund (£$£$) the Islamophobes will think when their heroes and heroines decide to eschew a chance to confront a shed load of renowned Sheikhs [i.e. Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, Sheikh Yasir Qadhi, Sheikh Waleed Basyouni, Sheikh Zoubir, Sheikh Tidiane Cisse, Sheikh Shuaib Webb, Sheikh Wahaj, Dr Jamal Badawi, Sheikh Zaid Shakir, Sheikh Qasim Ahmed and the list continues] in favour of some unknown, disliked and unauthorised rag-tag almuhajiroun-ignoramuses off the internet.

Try not to embarrass yourselves...


Oh before you embarrass yourselves further by pulling the “these Muslims lie because they are Western scholars” card to safeguard your financial donations ($£$£) please stop and realise the scholars in the Middle East are THEIR teachers and say the SAME thing as evidenced by Sheikh Waleed Basyouni’s teacher (Sheikh Bin Baz). For those who are unaware – i.e. the Islamophobes and their misguided supporters – Sheikh Bin Baz gave a religious edict well BEFORE 9/11 concerning the impermissibility of such terrorism. Enough said.

Ali Ataie Amuses us with a "Christian" Islamophobe

 



People, PLEASE stop giving internet Islamophobes cash. They are laughing all the way to the bank (£$£$)whilst adorning their yellow outfits. Please employ some logic too; would you go to some charlatan off the internet to gain legal or medical advice? Certainly not – you would appeal to EXPERST in the respective fields NOT to some money hungry unlearned charlatan, hence you SHOULD employ the SAME logic when dealing with Islam – CONSULT THE SCHOLARS (it’s free of charge)!!!

Some details of the event are appended in the comment section.

Related:

Sheikh Waleed Basyouni condemns terrorism

IslamDunkTV condemns attacks on Christians and Muslims stand by Christians

A lorry load of Islamic EXPERTS (Including Dr Timothy Winter) condemn terrorism

Convert to Islam today

Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

TAGS: Pam Gellar, Atlas Shrugs, Robert Spencer, Jihad Watch, Walid Shoebat, Kamal Saleem, Zacharia anaini, extremists, terry jones, burn quran day, draw Muhammad day, geert wilders, exposing Islamophobia, Jihad Exposed, abnsat.com, answeringmuslims, christianprince, james white, alpha and omega ministries, sam Shamoun, debates, 9/11 commission, deenshow, Shabir ally, exmuslims, edl, bnp, tea party, pat Condell, atheism, Christianity, Debbie schlussel, Negeen mayel, david wood, acts 17 apologetics, loonwatch, tawfiq hamid, wafa sultan, reformists, CAIRTV, Foxnews, glen beck, msnbc, abc news, muslims in the news, latest, terrorism, alqaeda, Nabeel Qureshi, tony costa, ali sina, almuhajiroun, arabs, iran, israeil, Zionism, Egypt, war, jesse quinn Harrison, txhalabi, bassim gorial,shirley phelps, fred phelps,

95 comments:

Yahya Snow said...

Details:


January 14 and 15 12011 - http://www.islamicconference.org/

For More details on the actual program see:
http://www.islamicconference.org/program/

Back drop:
In the summer of 2010, IWIC, a group of youth in the Atlanta, Georgia area decided to join forces to provide a quality conference to educate the masses. Their intent was to touch the hearts and most importantly, the minds of Muslims at home and abroad, but more importantly to educate the world on the peace and love for humanity that Islam was build upon. IWIC hopes to cast a shining light on the religion of Islam to inspire and rejuvenate Muslims all over, but to also restore the apperception of Islam for those that have a miss-educated and unfounded view of the religion of Islam. IWIC is spreading hope and knowledge through its work.
Mission
The mission of the IWIC—will serve to promote the essence of the Message of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) by providing a platform for legitimate leadership to apply authentic, Islamic interpretations in addressing the challenges faced by humanity in the 21st century. IWIC will work to inform and educate people about the real, living Islam and create a mutual understanding between ourselves and our neighbors all over the world, thereby promoting peace and eradicating the atmosphere of Islamophobia plaguing the Western world. IWIC will work to inspire and motivate Muslims to take up the collective responsibility to use our centers of worship for providing services to alleviate ignorance, hunger, poverty, homelessness, and their consequences on marriages and families, and provide for the comprehensive welfare of our neighbors and humanity at large. IWIC will work towards building bridges of cooperation with secular, faith-based, and grassroots organizations focused on the same goals.
Vision
The IWIC vision is to shed light on the clearest understanding of Islam and present it to the world, shared to Muslims and Non-Muslims alike.
Purpose
• To provide a unique and enjoyable conference for all who attend.
• To present world-renowned speakers to address the truth of Islam.
• To educate and inspire, both Muslims and Non-Muslims.
• To align with organizations and corporations that understands our purpose.
• To build healthier, stronger more enriched communities through educational programs and events.
The IWIC is an event created to accomplish a two fold purpose. The convention will revive the Islamic spirit for Muslims all over, but will also educate and inform non-Muslims on the true purpose and beliefs of Islam. While this conference is still an event to encourage and inspire Muslims to strengthen their faith and their understanding of Islam, it is an event that will significantly serve as an educational mechanism for those who have limited knowledge and grasp of what Islam is. In these times of turmoil and struggle for all people, there is a need for all people to learn to respect one another and the ways of their fellow brothers and sisters in humanity. In order for us to rise up from the valleys of hate, confusion, disrespect, and greed to reach this harmony, we must be willing to be educated. The IWIC is a major showing for those of the Muslim faith. People from all walks of life and cultures will be able to come together and immerse themselves in the positivity and peace that Islam speaks to. The objective of the Islamic World International Conference is to inspire and uplift the spirit of the community, restore the strength of family, and showcase prolific rising, and current well‐known speakers and leaders in the Islamic faith.

Yahya Snow said...

The scholars inlude:

• Invited Guests
Imam Qasim Ahmed
Jamal Badwi
Imam Abdul Malik
Abdullah Hakim Quick
Imam Muhammad Zaid Adli
Imam Fahim Shuab
Imam Shuiab Webb
Sheikh Zoubir
Waleed Basyouni
Yasir qadhi
Sheikh Hamza Yusulf
Imam Monsor Sabree
Imam Furqan Muhammad
and many more

Anonymous said...

Who cares what the people you call "scholars" say. Several other scholars say otherwise. Islamic history says otherwise. And most people care about whether Muslims actually fly planes into buildings more than they are about whether muslims admit that they fly planes into buildings. Talk is cheap.

Anonymous said...

Corrected version: Who cares what the people you call "scholars" say. Several other scholars say otherwise. Islamic history says otherwise. And most people care about whether Muslims actually fly planes into buildings more than they care about whether muslims admit that they fly planes into buildings. Talk is cheap.

Anonymous said...

Anyone ever notice just how envious and greedy this yahya guy is? He is constantly whining about people getting paid for their work. In fact, most of the time he is not even accurate when he accuses certain people of getting paid for what they do. Besides all that, all Muslims believe they are working in this life to earn cushioned couches and female toys in heaven.

thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

So I notice that Fatman/Antony Rogers/ or whom ever from AI most likely Fatman because frankly speaking Anthony Rogers has more of a backbone and something leads me to think that he is not to interested in all these charades.

That tends to happen when your a family man @ fatman (hint, hint).

Anyway the fact that Anonymous did not attempt to interact with this entry at all is very telling indeed.

Al hamdulillah that brother Yahya but the Islamaphobes far and wide in the U.S on notice!

Indeed I don't think we will see David White rolling up with his camera in one hand and white castle burger in the other any time soon...

May Allah open their hearts and guide them to the truth.

Ibn said...

Anonymous: Who cares what the people you call "scholars" say?

It is not only Yahya who regards them as scholars. Who cares? That's easy. The non-bigots, of course.

Anonymous: Several other scholars say otherwise. Islamic history says otherwise.

Really? Says who?

Anonymous said...

Ibn said: "It is not only Yahya who regards them as scholars. Who cares? That's easy. The non-bigots, of course."

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what rational people call the "no true scottsman" fallacy.

Anonymous said...

Did you notice when Ibn quoted back what I said and pretended to be giving a reply to it that he left out certain parts?

I wonder why he left out that part about the hard facts that most Americans go on!!! Don't you people realize we don't care what a handful of you people say to our faces but we look upon our own recent history and that of the past and see your barbarism on full display?

When your people strap bombs to their bodies, load up their cars, hijack planes and crash them into buildings, etc., etc., whatever else you may want to say, all of this sends a much louder message. That's the one all of us hear. In fact, to the extent that we can hear the whisper of those few who argue that Islam is peaceful, the much louder "boom" communicated by the Muslim faithful tells us that the Muslims trying to palliate a Western audience are not giving us the straight scoop.

Ibn said...

Anonymous: And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what rational people call the "no true scottsman" fallacy.

Lol! Tell me, do you agree that no true Muslim is a peaceful Muslim?

Anonymous: When your people strap bombs to their bodies, load up their cars, hijack planes and crash them into buildings, etc., etc., whatever else you may want to say, all of this sends a much louder message. That's the one all of us hear.

All of you? Really? do you have evidence ALL Westerns share the same view of Islam?

Anonymous said...

Lol! This Ibn does recognize the fallacy even when it is brought to his attention. After that noone will be likely to call your commitment to Islam into question.

You really need to learn how the word "all" functions in a sentence in informal dialogue. Surely you don't want me to bring up verses in the Qur'an where such language is used where it would result in more than a few absurdities if we take it the way you want me to be understood.

But besides all that, you are the last person who should be trying to argue the point about the peaceful and loving nature of Islam. I've seen how you act on this blog. If you are an example of Islam, then there can be no question what kind of religion Islam is.

Are you tempted to call me an idiot, a bastard, and an enemy as you have said of so many others around these parts? Please do. Then we can all sit back and marvel at such a beautiful example of what Muslims mean by peace and love.

Anonymous said...

Ooops...first sentence should say "doesn't" (not "does").

Ibn said...

Notice how Anonymouse shirks my challenge(s). How typical!

Anon: But besides all that, you are the last person who should be trying to argue the point about the peaceful and loving nature of Islam. I've seen how you act on this blog. If you are an example of Islam, then there can be no question what kind of religion Islam is.

How funny. You say I shouldn't argue about the peaceful nature of Islam given how I behave towards your ilk. Disregarding for the moment that you have committed a genetic fallacy, fine, I'm a bad Muslim. However, what about the scholars who are going to appear in the Islamic Conference? After all, you did say "Who cares..." and then went onto demonstrate how you and your ilk are interested ONLY in the vociferous minority of extremists and not the majority of those who oppose extremism and terrorism, such that you completely disregarded the recent display of solidarity between Egyptian Muslims and Copts, showing that, at the end of the day, you couldn't care less about their coreligionists.

As Jesus said, "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? 6:42 Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Friend, let me take out the speck in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye. "

Anonymous said...

Notice how Ibn shirked dealing with most of what I said.

Notice also that he writes off his behavior as an example of me engaging in a genetic fallacy when his behavior is entirely relevant since my point is we hear the hatred and anger of people like him over their claim to be peaceful and loving.

I'm afraid you do not represent a minority who are bad Muslims. You are a perfect example of a lot of Muslims. And we hear you. Believe me, those of my ilk hear you. Please keep speaking for Islam.

Anonymous said...

By the way, are you seriously suggesting that what some Muslims did in Egypt in showing their solidarity with Christians represents the norm of what Muslims do in the world?

Furthermore, aren't you the guy in another comment section who chided Yahya for trying to show solidarity and be friends with Christians? Methinks that is the case.

Ibn said...

Anonymous:...my point is we hear the hatred and anger of people like him over their claim to be peaceful and loving.

How quickly you change your claim! You are now saying that Islam is not peaceful because the Muslims who participate in this blog are not nice to you, yet this was not your point originally. Originally, you claimed that it didn't matter what the peaceful Muslims say since ONLY the actions of the extremists resonate in your ears. In your own words, "Don't you people realize we don't care what a handful of you people say to our faces..........." The fact is, a handful of Muslims are not terrorists or extremists. It is the majority of the 1.5 billions Muslims around the world who are not terrorists or extremists. And this is an extremely large majority we are talking about!

BTW every Muslim here who has not been nice to you is also opposed to terrorism and extremism. If, as you believe, we are best representatives of Islam (in your own words, "Please keep speaking for Islam"), why don't you accept our claim that Islam is a peaceful religion? You have painted yourself into a corner, fool!

Anon: By the way, are you seriously suggesting that what some Muslims did in Egypt in showing their solidarity with Christians represents the norm of what Muslims do in the world?

No, I am suggesting that what those Egyptian Muslims did is reflective of the spirit of Islam.

Anon: Furthermore, aren't you the guy in another comment section who chided Yahya for trying to show solidarity and be friends with Christians? Methinks that is the case.

I did chide Yahya but not because he wanted to befriend genuine Christians. I chided him because he wanted to befriend bigots.

I predict Anonymous' response will begin with a mocking remark about how I did not address his points. Typical!

The Fat Man said...

@Yahya Snow

Since you make such a big deal about Christians in the ministry getting support for there work, and have a problem with a "worker who deserves his wages"

I hope you contact the organizer's of this event and make sure that none of the "Scholars" are getting speaker's fees.

The Fat Man said...

@The Muslims

I posed a few questions on the last post in regards to what happened in Egypt. Only Ali made somewhat of a effort to answer one of the questions 1. Do the Copts of Egypt pay Jizya?

His response was he did not know.

So I will ask again does anyone know if the Copts of Egypt pay "Jizya"?

And if they don't then can Muslims claim that they have "Protected Status"?

If they are not "Protected" then are those Muslims who want to protect the Copts from other Muslims in violation of Islam?

The Fat Man said...

@TGV

Well looks like Anthony Rogers volleyd and smacked you back to me. Well I read your profile so I think I'm going to change the game from tennis to football and run with the ball.

In your profile, (I'm going from memory here) You said that the you were asked by a black Muslim what color Jesus was, and you responded quite pridefully that he was WHITE LIKE YOU.

I'm wondering first why would this matter to you, and second why would you think that Jesus was a white guy, unless your only knowledge about Jesus is based on middle age, and renaissance paintings of Jesus?

So considering that Jesus was not "WHITE" like you changed your life?

Also you said that God unlike humans does not need to reproduce to continue his specie's? So is that what you believed when your were a "nominal Christian"?

The Fat Man said...

@TGV

Oh I am going to have so much fun with you.

Do you honestly think that Gulam Estashaam is the IRONMAN of Islamic Apologetics lol.

You do realize that in his debate with Mary Jo Sharp in the last 45 seconds of his mind numbing opening statement he said "This is why I believe that Jesus survived the Crucifixion like I believe that Tupac survived what ever happened to him." This is the IRONMAN LOL

The Fat Man said...

@TGV

Ok time to be serious. You said in your profile that you repeated over and over again "God needs blood" or something like that. And that is what caused you to "let go of the cross"

First you never were holding onto the cross, but be that as it may. I felt I should point out to you that God does not need blood. It is you who need blood. He has given it to you make atonement for your sins.

It's either your blood, or a animals blood (which can never substitute for you) or the Blood of Christ, the blood of GOD.

You honestly think you can approach God with out blood? Cain tried that, it didn't work out to well for him.

The Fat Man said...

@Muslims

Here is a question for you Muslims, Is the life of a Non Muslim male worth less then a Muslim male?

The Fat Man said...

@Yahay snow and the other Islamic Bigots on this blog.

The latest Islamic missionary work in Egypt has caused me to reflect on how someone could do the things that Muslims do in the name of their god’s. To not only take human life so callously but to throw one’s own life away in the process, is for me is beyond comprehension.

I can only conclude with the help of the “Peaceful Moderate Islamic bigots” on this blog that Muslims view non Muslims as less human or at least less then Muslims.

A prime example of this is Yahya Snow himself. When he first posted on the Islamic missionary work, the title of the blog post was “Al Quida Kills 21 Christians in Egypt”. After it was pointed out to him that Muslims were killed in this Dawah campaign, he changed the blog post to “21 PEOPLE killed” . This is a tell, he only finds people to be killed if Muslims are the ones being killed.

Also when the room owner was confronted with how Christians are to be “protected”\discriminated against, how they are to be separated and segregated, how they are denied the basic human rights that not only the US constitution calls for, but also the UN Declaration of Human rights (It should be pointed out that no majority Muslim nation has ever singed the UN declaration on Human rights.) His only response was “Pork is not good for you” or “take a chill pill, relax nothing to fear in this” in other words he sees nothing wrong with this level of bigotry.

Further prove of Islamic bigotry and dehumanizing non Muslims comes from the Islamic theology itself. The very fact that Islam teaches and Muslims believe they are the “Best of Creatures” demonstrates that Muslims view themselves as superior to non Muslims. There by making non Muslims inferior.

And finally in Islamic law itself, Non Muslims are worth less then Non Muslims.

From the Reliance on the Traveler.
“o4.2 The indemnity for killing a male Muslim is 100 camels.”
“The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man.
The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim. The
indemnity paid of a Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth of that a Muslim.”
So woman are worth less then men, and Christians and Jews are worth less then Woman.

I guess it’s a good thing that Christians and Jews, and Zoroastrain’s are at least worth something so, Hindu’s, Animist, and other pagans are worth NOTHING.

So this how and why Muslim missionaries can do the things they do, in promotion of your religion. This is how and why seemingly everyday average people, can stone a woman to death, this is how and why they can whip a woman in public, this is why hey can blow themselves up killing themselves and and others in the process all for the name and glorification of your gods.

Like I said "The best weapon against Muslims is Islam, the best weapon against Muslim's is Islam."

Anonymous said...

Qur'an Teacher Ashraf Miah Convicted of Molesting Girls While Teaching Them about Islam
It's sad that crimes like this occur, but at least these particular crimes happened in the West, where young girls can get justice. In Muslim countries, many young girls wouldn't say a word about such molestation, since Islam wouldn't recognize their testimony (and since some of them would be killed in honor killings if their parents found out).


Ashraf Miah, aged 38, of Joseph Street, Bow E3, was sentenced to three years and three months imprisonment at Snaresbrook Crown Court on 7 January 2010 following 13 charges of sexual assault by touching, against six girls, one as young as 4-years-old, in his care during 2005 and 2009.

The offences happened when Miah was entrusted to teach young females to read from the Koran either at his home address or at their address.

The crimes came to notice when Miah was arrested in November 2009 for offences against two of the girls. During the investigation, dealt with by detectives from the Child Abuse Investigation Team, other children that had been taught by Miah were contacted and more offences came to notice, leading to his further arrest in January 2010.

13 charges followed in April 2010 when he appeared before Thames Magistrates' Court. He was convicted on all 13 counts.

He was sentenced to three years and three months imprisonment, put on the sex offenders register for life and is not allowed to work with children.

The officer leading the investigation, Detective Sergeant Martin Bird from the Child Abuse Investigation Team, said: "The tragedy of this case is that a highly respected member of the community took advantage of their position of trust. It goes to show that even if someone thinks they have got away with it at the time, young people are brave enough to come forward and testify at court." (Source)

Anonymous said...

Muslim Policeman Shoots Five Coptic Christians in Egypt
I guess it's hard to protect the Copts, when there are so many people willing to kill them, and when some of the killers have jobs as police officers. So much for Muslims protecting Christians in Muslim lands. Meanwhile, CAIR and ISNA are complaining about Islamophobia and bigotry in America.


CAIRO – An off-duty policeman boarded a train and opened fire on Tuesday, killing a 71-year-old Christian man and wounding his wife and four others, the Interior Ministry said. The attack, less than two weeks after the suicide bombing of a church killed 21, sparked new demonstrations by enraged Christians who pelted police with stones in southern Egypt.

The church attack on worshippers leaving a New Year's Mass in the Mediterranean port of Alexandria touched off three days of riots and demonstrations by furious Christians who criticized the government for failing to protect them and vented over what they see as persistent discrimination.

All of the casualties in the latest attack were Christians — four of them women — raising concerns it will ignite a new wave of protests by a community still traumatized by the suicide bombing.

Soon after the attack, hundreds of angry Copts gathered outside the hospital where the wounded were being treated in the central Egyptian province of Minya and stoned police.

It was not immediately clear whether the gunman knew his targets were Christians. But four of the five wounded were Christian women who stand out in the conservative south as they would probably not have been wearing headscarves as most Muslim women do.

The ministry statement identified the policeman as Amer Ashour Abdel-Zaher, a 23-year-old Muslim, and said he boarded the Cairo-bound train at the town of Samalout in Minya province and opened fire on the passengers with a handgun. (Read more.)

The Fat Man said...

Anonymous NON MUSLIMS who posted about the Egyption Muslim Missionary.

Well it's good to know that Muslims are protecting Christians from Muslims.

I seriously think we in the west need to start planning for a Christian Exodus. We need to come to terms with the fact that more and more, God is retracting his restraining hand from the middle east.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Is the book 'Reliance of the Traveler' a canonical text for muslims? Yes or No?

Its a good source for knowledge but it is not binding as it is the works of classical scholars.

A simple answer to your moaning (oops question) :
'..the fatwa issued by Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, in which he states the following:

“Many texts have been reported to the effect that a Muslim cannot be killed for a non-Muslim. However, the general meanings of the Qur’anic verses in addition to the practice of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and his great Companions support the view that a Muslim is to be killed in retaliation for murdering a non-Muslim..'

(http://mdarik.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503544568&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar)

The said fatwa renders your question of the 'value of life of a non muslim' meaningless as the muslim who committed the crime will get the death penalty.

In addition , do you have any historical fact that such 'law' of muslims murdering non muslims going scott free been implemented?

The real life examples :
(1) the apartheid system was maintained by the church going , staunch christians of South Africa
(2) the apartheid state of Israel is strongly supported by staunch zionist christians (like you)

Per your line of argument / logic , is the life of non christians worthless??

Ibn said...

Anonymous is on a copy and paste spree. Fatman's just frustrated from being single.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528

Thanks for your response. You quoted and gave a link to a Fatwa site regarding the killing a Muslim for killing a non Muslim.

I should point out first, I never quoted nor did I say a Muslim can not or can be killed for killing a non Muslim.

The text I quoted speaks about paying less blood money (indemnity) for a non Muslim's life.

So in other words you addressed a point I never made.

Now as far as The Reliance on the Traveler. I never said it was cannonical, but it is a book on the Sahfi school of ISLAMIC law. You know that Law that you all seem to want to live under. But none of you knows what it is.

So please respond to my point, find me a school that disagree's with the Shafi school in regards to Blood Money for non Muslims.

Now as far as your answer to a point I never made. I checked out your website and this is what it said...
"The majority of scholars including Ahmad and Ash-Shafi` maintain the view that a Muslim cannot be killed for a non-Muslim."

See that word I highlighted in bold. MAJORITY, what does it mean?
Dictionary.com says.

MAJORITY "the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total ( opposed to minority)"

Hmm so that means that a GREATER NUMBER OF "SCHOLARS" believe that a Muslim should NOT be killed as opposed to the MINORITY of SCHOLARS that believe a MUSLIM CAN BE KILLED.

So if Islamic law was instituted what do you think the LAW would be in regards to killing a Muslim for a non Muslim. Since the MAJORITY of scholars agree that a Muslim should not be killed?

The Fat Man said...

Sam1528
Now as far as your use of the Tu Quoque Fallacy. Since we are talking about Islam it really doesn't matter what Israel, or South Africa did or did not do.

Lets say their both wrong or even both right in what they have or are doing. Does that make Islam right or WRONG?

So please don't point your finger at us KUFFAR. We are not rightly guided, so there for we can not be the example for you Muslims. Deal with what the MAJORITY of scholars say about your religion and your laws.

Ali said...

fatman saudi has labeled the blood money for a muslim women the same as a non-muslim man's.
and of course one would be silly to believe that this is true and that no scholar has come out to corrcet this.

Anonymous said...

I knew Ibn was a keeper. First the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, then his language blunder ("all"), and now his playing right into my hands and proving all along what I stated and have not varied from: it is not so much what Muslims say as what they SAY that really counts.

You see, on the one hand Ibn says, in effect, "we are peaceful around these parts (as are most Muslims)", but then he SAYS "those who disagree with me are fools and bigots" and he even admits that the positive and commendable response of some Muslims in Egypt to the terrorism of other Muslims is not at all the norm. You've got to love it.

So should we care what "moderates" like Ibn and his preferred scholars say? Well, that all depends on what you mean by "say": obviously we shouldn't listen to what a handful of people, like Ibn, simply mouth, but we should see what they are actually saying, i.e. what comes out and the attitude that is conveyed in their speech and how this translates into action. When we do that, what we hear is: you are fools and bigots and most of us around the world are not at all inclined to show solidarity with you, befriend you, or stand against those who want to do evil to you and harm you.

Thanks, Ibn. You are the Muslim of the hour. Actually, you are the Muslim man of the last 1400 years. World, Beware!

Ibn said...

Response to Anonymous

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

The Fat Man said...

Ali said...
"fatman saudi has labeled the blood money for a muslim women the same as a non-muslim man's.
and of course one would be silly to believe that this is true and that no scholar has come out to corrcet this."

Yeah I honestly don't get what you are trying to say with this.

If the Saudi's did lower the blood money of a Muslim woman to that of a Non Muslim man (God forbid) then yes Scholars would be right to correct that because it is clearly un Islamic.

If they tried to raise the blood money to that of a Muslim male they would be in error, because clearly that is Un Islamic.

If they were to raise the blood money of a non Muslim male to that of a Muslim woman or Muslim man again they would be in error.

So what does all that have to do with the fact that in Islam non Muslim males are worth less then Muslim men and woman?

The Fat Man said...

@Ibn

I'm hurt man, now I'm really hurt. That's the same response you gave to me while back. I though I meant something to you. I thought that was are special video.

But I see now you will share that un creative response with anyone.

Anonymous said...

Ibn, can you give me a link to the longer version of your bio and intellectual life? Although very pithy and dead on accurate from what I can tell, the video you linked still leaves a little to be desired. We want to know more about you. For example, we want to know how all that ties in with your degree in "Sharia Economics". Oh, nevermind. I guess the two go together perfectly. Silly me.

The Fat Man said...

@The Muslims
Well it looks like I stumped the chumps with Non Muslims being worth less then Muslims. So lets move onto another way in which non Muslims are dehumanized or at least viewed as less then Muslims.

Can non Muslims testify in court against Muslims?

Are the oaths of Non Muslims valid in court?

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

What do you want as a response? That is why I am asking you to provide the historical fact , when and where
(1) the murderer (a muslim) of a non muslim goes scott free
(2) payment of blood money (less than for a murdered muslim)
has been the law of the land following the points you took from 'Reliance of the Traveller'. Law is a code that has been implemented and enforced by the governing authority. If such is not / have never been implemented , how can it become the law of the land? You don't seem to know what you are talking about.

If there no such historical fact , that means it has never been implemented. Why all the hot air about something that has never been implemented?

Why are you coming up with the definition of 'majority' whereas there is already a fatwa - the penalty for a muslim murdering a non muslim in an 'Islamic country' is death. What is the need for blood money if the penalty is death?

Why are you talking about 'if this / that'? Has it happened? Yes or No? You are arguing on conjecture. You need to wake up and face reality.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

I don't buy into the 'Tu Quoque Fallacy'. I view it as a problem with mud slinging christians who cannot answer the same issues coming back to them. You must be able to take in what you dish out. That is fair.

All opinions of the majority of classical scholars been implemented and enforced as the law of the land?

You bring up arguments based on conjecture. We muslims bring up real life , present and historical examples. I say we have a stronger case. Are we in agreement?

Anonymous said...

Another Gang Rape of an Australian Infidel
According to Islam, Muslim men are allowed to have sex with two kinds of women: their wives, and women they're able to capture.


Qur’an 23:1-6—The believers must (eventually) win through—those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vain talk; who are active in deeds of charity; who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess—for (in their case) they are free from blame.

Sadly, some Muslims actually take these teachings seriously.


Seven males have been charged with the gang rape of a woman in Bendigo.

Police allege the men unlawfully imprisoned and repeatedly raped the woman at a residence in Flora Hill early on Sunday.

Four of the men, Mohammad Zaoli, 21, Mohammed Elnour, 18, Aru Gar, 19, and Akoak Manon, 18, appeared via video link in the Bendigo Magistrates Court yesterday. They each face 17 charges, including 14 of rape. The other three accused are aged 14, 16 and 17 and cannot be named. They appeared in a children's court on the same 17 charges.

Zaoli, Elnour, Gar and Manon were remanded in custody until Friday when they were expected to seek bail. Their co-accused were expected to apply for bail in a children's court on the same day. (Source)

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 Part 1
Again you are attacking a point I never made. Although it is is true that the MAJORITY of scholars say that a Muslim can not be killed for killing a Non Muslim. My point is on the amount of blood money to be paid for Non Muslims. Address my point sir.

Sam1528 said...

"Law is a code that has been implemented and enforced by the governing authority. If such is not / have never been implemented , how can it become the law of the land? You don't seem to know what you are talking about."

So can you provide me with factual historical evidence when SHARIA law has ever been enforced?

I find this interesting, you Muslims all want Sharia law, say it is Allahs law, say it is the best thing, that it will cure the west of all it's ills.

But then when confronted with the barbarity of Laws in Islamic societies and countries suddenly they're not practicing sharia law.

When confronted with what Sharai law is in Islamic legal books as well as from the MAJORITY of Scholars you now appeal to the fact that Sharai law has never been implemented. WOW

Next you say...

"If there no such historical fact , that means it has never been implemented. Why all the hot air about something that has never been implemented?"

Sir SHARAI law has never been implemented remember. So its not hot air if this is what you want. This is your ideal.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 Part 2

You next say...

"Why are you coming up with the definition of 'majority' whereas there is already a fatwa "

Sir I never came up with he definition on majority, your website the link you provided said it is the MAJORITY OF SCHOLARS who say that a Muslim should not be killed.

There are all kinds of Fatwa's I can find you a Fatwa that was issued on woman breast feeding there male co workers. You will reject that Fatwa right? I am told all the time that anyone can issue a FATWA, Osama Bin Ladden has issued FATWA's do you follow them?

Here do you believe these Fatwa's
1."Grand Mufti Sheikh Ibn Baaz: The Sun Revolves Around the Earth"
2."Muhammad Al-Munajid put a Fatwa on Mickey Mouse
3.Multaqa Ahl al Hadeeth: Muslim Internet Forum Multaqa Ahl al Hadeeth, “Emoticons are forbidden because of its imitation to Allah’s creatures whether it is original or mixture or even deformed one and since the picture is the face and the face is what makes the real picture then emoticons which represent faces that express emotions then all that add up to make them Haram.”

Do you follow or accept any of these Fatwa's?

Second I am told by Muslims all the time, I have to go to the majority of the scholars. When i do, you find a Fatwa (BIG DEAL) that goes against the Majority of the SCHOLARS.

I mean come on man. This is Islamic law, this is what the MAJORITY of SCHOLARS want to implement.

So the only thing you can say is that you do not agree with the Majority of Scholars, and you have a FATWA that disgrees with the Majority of Muslim scholars, and that since Islamic Sharia Law has never been implemented there for Islamic Law can not be the law of the land. WOW talk about double speak.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528

The only thing you have done is attack a point I did not make. The attack is to appeal to some FATWA that disagrees with the MAJORITY OF SCHOLARS.

You then appeal to the fact that Islamic Sharia law has never been implemented. Ok I agree with you on that. I find it funny that you want something that in 1400 years has never ever been implemented but hey thats your thinking not mine.

And finally you then point the finger to South Africans and Zionist JOOSH to say, "see they are worse then we are." Ok so if they are how does that make the bigotry in Islam any better?

So you have commited at least two falacy's. Strawman and a Tu Quoque Fallacy.

So Sam get back to me when you are ready to honestly engage in the points that I brought up.

Let me ask you point blank.
Do you agree that the life of a non Muslim is worth less then that of a Muslim?

maratsafin said...

you know people are only copy and pasting when they use phrases like "Islamic shariah law" looooool and my does fatman act like a child!!

maratsafin said...

i really do belive fatman is a athiest undercover. his christianity is like that of john selby spong's.

The Fat Man said...

maratsafin said...
"i really do belive fatman is a athiest undercover. his christianity is like that of john selby spong's."

And you base that on what? Why would a atheist pretend to be a Christian to tell the truth about Islam?

maratsafin said...

you wouldnt now truth if it hit you on the face!!! anyway your actions like that on paltalk and endorsing certain presidents give the impression of a very liberal christian and that to some fundy christians who you try to miserably defend is just as bad if not worse than being a athiest. anyway i honestly do sorry for you,when i used to hear you speak on paltalk as radical moderate you sounded like a old man( no offence intended) but on here you act like a child.

The Fat Man said...

@ maratsafin

Alrighty then you got me all figured out.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Historical evidence that sharia law ever been enforced? Refer to the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the 4 rightly guided caliphs.

As provided in the link. What did Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Caliph Ali(ra) enforced with regards to the penalty / blood money for a muslim murdering non muslim?

What make you 100% sure that blood money of non muslim being less than muslim will be taken wholesome if sharia law is enforced? You are again exposed arguing from assumption. Your argument is extremely poor.

You don't seem to be able to use your judgement. Sharia law evolves with time fitting into the society while not straying from the Islamic canon. The opinion of classical scholars is not considered part of the Islamic canon.

What so called 'point that you did not make' did I attacked? Your argument is based on conjecture. You keep harping on 'majority of scholars' but you are not even aware there has been no implementation and enforcing of such code. Then you wonder why nobody respond to your so called argument.

Yahya Snow said...

anonymous wrote:

Another Gang Rape of an Australian Infidel
According to Islam, Muslim men are allowed to have sex with two kinds of women: their wives, and women they're able to capture.
----------

Grow up. Stop capitalising on somebody else's misery in order to bash Islam. the Muslims who committed the crime of gang rape have sinned according to Islam. They were NOT practicing Islam. Islam forbids this act. The Quranic Verse has nothing to do with gang raoping women.

I guess your quest for cheap posts and demonisation is clouding your judgement.

To the fella who originally wrote such nonsense; grow up!

Why people give folk like him cash is beyond me; he offers no intellectual substance at all.

Islamophobia = cash for the Islamophobes

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Why are you still harping on '..MAJORITY OF SCHOLARS who say that a Muslim should not be killed..'. Has the code been implemented and enforced anytime in history? Yes or No?

The 'fatwa' from Osama bin Laden got the backing of which established scholar and authority in the Islamic world?

Now you bring up the so called fatwa by
1)Grand Mufti Sheikh Ibn Baaz: The Sun Revolves Around the Earth"
2)"Muhammad Al-Munajid put a Fatwa on Mickey Mouse
In the original arabic text they did not state such things. Their words have been twisted by MEMRI to feed islamophobes like you.

For the usage of emoticons in Multaqa Ahl al Hadeeth , I do see 'the smileys' being used. Lets say that the fatwa is real. Does it in any way hurt you , a non muslim?

You are now trying to hide the fact that you are the dishonest one. You have yet to show elements of bigotry practiced in Islam.

I don't agree that a life of a non muslim is less than a muslim. If I believe such , I have betrayed the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saw).

My turn. Do you believe the life of a muslim is less than a christian? Yes or No?
If no , why are you (a christian zionist) supporting the apartheid state of Israel?

Yahya Snow said...

Anyone ever notice just how envious and greedy this yahya guy is? He is constantly whining about people getting paid for their work. In fact, most of the time he is not even accurate when he accuses certain people of getting paid for what they do. Besides all that, all Muslims believe they are working in this life to earn cushioned couches and female toys in heaven.


I have never asked for cash on the net - how am I "greedy"?

Since when was copying and pasting articles from other Islamophobic websites considered "work" worthy of payment?

Sure, I make mention of the fact Islamophobes ask for cash - it seems to be a ubiquitous trait amongst them, they all want a few dollars for stuff you can do in your lunch break at your REAL vocation.

The only time I have mentioned a figure was when I reported on a group of Islamophobes (Acts17) buying their colleague a $2000 computer. Are you saying I was wrong here? Was it less or more then $2000? Bring your proof if you have any and I will certainly correct the figure.

Perhaps you are worried the Islamophobes will go homeless - don't worry, they have more cash than you - thay have been laughing all the way to the bank whilst folk like you have been funding them for their "work" of copying and pasting negative news articles about Muslims onto their blogs and websites - if that passes for "work" then I will eat my hat!

Think about it...

Yahya Snow said...

Fatman:Well it looks like I stumped the chumps with Non Muslims being worth less then Muslims. So lets move onto another way in which non Muslims are dehumanized or at least viewed as less then Muslims.

??????
?????

Fatman: @Yahya Snow

Since you make such a big deal about Christians in the ministry getting support for there work, and have a problem with a "worker who deserves his wages"

I hope you contact the organizer's of this event and make sure that none of the "Scholars" are getting speaker's fees.

The scholars are actually workijng in the conventional sense and thus would be well entitled to renumeration for their efforts; however, I would not be surprised if they worked the event for free.

One of my gripes is with your Islamophobic pals asking for cash on the net yet they simply copy and paste negative news articles from the net to bash Muslims with. Now, that is hardly "work" that warrants payment, is it?


Fatman: I posed a few questions on the last post in regards to what happened in Egypt. Only Ali made somewhat of a effort to answer one of the questions 1. Do the Copts of Egypt pay Jizya?

Answer: No the Copts do not pay Jizya. It does not mean they can be killed by the Egyptian Muslims. Some Muslims do not pay zakat either - though they should.

I find it interesting to note the way fundamentalist Christians care little about the Copts in Egypt but simply use their plight as a tool to pour hatred upon Muslims :(

MUSLIMS ARE TRYING TO PROTECT THE COPTS - join us rather than trying to throw spanners in the works!

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 Part 1
"Why are you still harping on '..MAJORITY OF SCHOLARS who say that a Muslim should not be killed..'. Has the code been implemented and enforced anytime in history? Yes or No?"

Couple of things, I never argued either way, that under Sharia law a Muslim can or can not be killed for a Non Muslim. That is your argument. I'm just pointing out how silly your argument is.

The response is nonsensical for a number of reasons. First "If sharia hasn't been Implemented, then Muslims are not successfully establishing the rule and religion of Allah. Islam is a failure."

So in essence you are arguing that because MUSLIMS have failed to implement the laws of your gods, that this makes the laws of your gods good.

Also your response is like that of a NAZI before the Nuremberg laws telling a Jew, "Don't worry have any of these laws been implemented or enforced?"

The bottom line is this, the MAJORITY OF THE SCHOLARS SAY IT, ISLAMIC LAW BOOKS SAY IT, and all you have is a FATWA from the internet that goes against the MAJORITY OF THE SCHOLARS AND THE ISLAMIC LAW CODE. So which should I believe you and a internet site, or the MAJORITY OF ISLAMIC SCHOLARS?

You also said "You are now trying to hide the fact that you are the dishonest one. You have yet to show elements of bigotry practiced in Islam."

Again you are using the failure of Muslims as argument in favor of Islam.

Sir the mere fact that the MAJORITY OF THE SCHOLARS, and THE ISLAMIC BOOKS ON LAW call for such things, is an IDEOLOGY OF BIGOTRY.

Lets Review
From the Reliance on the Traveler.
“o4.2 The indemnity for killing a male Muslim is 100 camels.”
“The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man.
The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third of the indemnity paid for a Muslim. The
indemnity paid of a Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth of that a Muslim.”

Also
o11.5 Such non-Muslim subjects are obliged to comply with Islamic rules that pertain to the safety and
indemnity of life, reputation, and property. In addition, they:
(1) are penalized for committing adultery or theft, thought not for drunkenness;
(2) are distinguished from Muslims in dress, wearing a wide cloth belt (zunnar);
(3) are not greeted with "as-Salamu 'alaykum";
(4) must keep to the side of the street;
(5) may not build higher than or as high as the Muslims' buildings, though if they acquire a tall house,
it is not razed;
(6) are forbidden to openly display wine or pork, (A: to ring church bells or display crosses,) recite
the Torah or Evangel aloud, or make public display of their funerals and feastdays;
(7) and are forbidden to build new churches.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 (Cont)

You also said...
"What make you 100% sure that blood money of non muslim being less than muslim will be taken wholesome if sharia law is enforced? You are again exposed arguing from assumption. Your argument is extremely poor."

Sir I'm not assuming anything, I'm just pointing out what the Majority of YOUR SCHOLARS SAY, what the MAJORITY OF ISLAMIC SCHOOLS SAY.

You also said...
"I don't agree that a life of a non muslim is less than a muslim. If I believe such , I have betrayed the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saw)."


You like FATWA's, ok here is Fatwa No : 86122 from Islamweb.net

"If the Kafir is not Harbi and he is among the People of the Book then his blood money is the same as the blood money of a Muslim according to Abu Hanifa . Imam Malik is of the opinion that his blood money is only half that of the blood money of a Muslim. Imam Shafie said: he deserves one third of the blood money of a Muslim. Every one of them based his opinion on some evidences. There is a Hadith that the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: The blood money of the People of the Book is half that of Muslims. Ibn Hajar said, it is reported by Ahmad and four complier of Sunan. Imam al-Khattabi said: there is no clearer evidence concerning the blood money of the People of the Book than the above Hadith . Therefore, you may know that the opinion of al-Malikiyah in this subject is stronger than the others.

Only the Hanifa says the blood money is equal. Are you a Hanifa? If so great, however what if the Sharia that is established is not of the Hanifa school what if it is of the Shaffi, or Malik school?

Notice what MOHAMED SAID "The blood money of the People of the Book is half that of Muslims.
So it is you who is betraying the teachings of Mohamed.

Also this FATWA says that "Therefore, you may know that the opinion of al-Malikiyah in this subject is stronger than the others"

So let me conclude your only defense against the BIGOTRY taught in Islamic Jurisprudence, is the failure of Muslims to establish Allah's law's. When that fails you then deny the MAJORITY OF SCHOLARS and even the very words of your own PROPHET.

Then somehow as a defense against the clear teachings of the majority of your own scholars and the very words of your prophet, you assume that if Islamic law is established that this part will not be established. You are the one who is using conjecture. I am only going by what the MAJORITY of your scholars say.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 Part 2

1."As provided in the link. What did Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Caliph Ali(ra) enforced with regards to the penalty / blood money for a muslim murdering non muslim?

2.What make you 100% sure that blood money of non muslim being less than muslim will be taken wholesome if sharia law is enforced? You are again exposed arguing from assumption. Your argument is extremely poor.

3.I don't agree that a life of a non muslim is less than a muslim. If I believe such , I have betrayed the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saw)."

I blended two your posts together since they deal with the same thing. Ok lets take a look at this.

You like FATWA's I got a FATWA for you from Islamweb.net

"If the Kafir is not Harbi and he is among the People of the Book then his blood money is the same as the blood money of a Muslim according to Abu Hanifa . Imam Malik is of the opinion that his blood money is only half that of the blood money of a Muslim. Imam Shafie said: he deserves one third of the blood money of a Muslim. Every one of them based his opinion on some evidences. There is a Hadith that the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: The blood money of the People of the Book is half that of Muslims. Ibn Hajar said, it is reported by Ahmad and four complier of Sunan. Imam al-Khattabi said: there is no clearer evidence concerning the blood money of the People of the Book than the above Hadith . Therefore, you may know that the opinion of al-Malikiyah in this subject is stronger than the others.
Allah knows best."

The Fat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Fat Man said...

@Yahya Snow.

So thats good that the Copts don't pay Jizya other wise they would be entitled to a refund. Since a POLICE Offer killed one and shot for others.

So if they don't pay Jizya then how can you and other Muslims claim they are protected, since protection is a condition of protection?

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 Part 2

"As provided in the link. What did Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Caliph Ali(ra) enforced with regards to the penalty / blood money for a muslim murdering non muslim?

What make you 100% sure that blood money of non muslim being less than muslim will be taken wholesome if sharia law is enforced? You are again exposed arguing from assumption. Your argument is extremely poor.


I don't agree that a life of a non muslim is less than a muslim. If I believe such , I have betrayed the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saw)."

I blended two your posts together since they deal with the same thing. Ok lets take a look at this.

You like FATWA's I got a FATWA for you from Islamweb.net

Ali said...

lol fatman you know the pact of umar is considered a forgery? i believe we went over this with you?

non-Muslims have almost he same rights as muslims except for the jizya.
have you ever read the constitution of Medina? Didn't think so

The Fat Man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Fat Man said...

Ali
I never quoted from the PACT OF UMAR. THat is from The Reliance on the Traveler, The Shaffi School of Islamic FIQ. Funny but if the Pact of Umar is a forgery what is it doing in the Shafi School, also what is it doing in the Tasfir of Ibn Kathir. I guess no one told them it was a forgery.

The Fat Man said...

Try this for the third time. For some reason this post will not POST
@Sam1528 Part 2

"As provided in the link. What did Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Caliph Ali(ra) enforced with regards to the penalty / blood money for a muslim murdering non muslim?

What make you 100% sure that blood money of non muslim being less than muslim will be taken wholesome if sharia law is enforced? You are again exposed arguing from assumption. Your argument is extremely poor.


I don't agree that a life of a non muslim is less than a muslim. If I believe such , I have betrayed the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saw)."

I blended two your posts together since they deal with the same thing. Ok lets take a look at this.

You like FATWA's I got a FATWA for you from Islamweb.net

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 Part 3

So lets look at the above Fatwa I posted.

We have only the Hanifa school saying it is to be equal. Thats great if your a HANIFA, and if the HANIFA school is dominent. But what if it's not, what if one of the other Schools gets in power, like Imam Malik or Imam Shaffi.

Also notice that Malik and Shaffi school provide a HADEETH where your prophet himself said that the blood money of a non believer is half that of a believer.

So that was enforced during Mohamed time, since he said it.

Also notice that the FATWA says "Therefore, you may know that the opinion of al-Malikiyah in this subject is stronger than the others."

So you have betrayed the teachings of your prophet, since he is the one who said that the blood money is half that of a believer.

Now am I going by conjecture if the Majority of Islamic SCHOLARS say it, if MOHAMED himself said it, if the opinion of Malik according to a FATWA is the stronger one?

Tell me before the Nuremberg laws were established was it conjecture that Adulf and the BOYZ were going to KILL JEWS?

Speaking of Killing JOOSH. I got another FATWA for you. Do you agree with this FATWA

KILL THE JOOSH

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 in case you missed it. From the FATWA on Blood Money

"If the Kafir is not Harbi and he is among the People of the Book then his blood money is the same as the blood money of a Muslim according to Abu Hanifa . Imam Malik is of the opinion that his blood money is only half that of the blood money of a Muslim. Imam Shafie said: he deserves one third of the blood money of a Muslim. Every one of them based his opinion on some evidences. There is a Hadith that the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: The blood money of the People of the Book is half that of Muslims . Ibn Hajar said, it is reported by Ahmad and four complier of Sunan. Imam al-Khattabi said: there is no clearer evidence concerning the blood money of the People of the Book than the above Hadith . Therefore, you may know that the opinion of al-Malikiyah in this subject is stronger than the others.

The Fat Man said...

Sam1528 You said...

"You are now trying to hide the fact that you are the dishonest one. You have yet to show elements of bigotry practiced in Islam."

And you asked

What do you want as a response? That is why I am asking you to provide the historical fact , when and where
(1) the murderer (a muslim) of a non muslim goes scott free
(2) payment of blood money (less than for a murdered muslim)"


Since I never argued point 1, I will give you the answer to point two. Here you go.

In Saudi Arabia, when a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the prescribed blood money rates are as follows[8]:
100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
50,000 riyals if a Christian or Jewish man
25,000 riyals if a Christian or Jewish woman
6,666 riyals if a Hindu man
3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman.


Yes I know it's...

Yes I know its a wiki site,don't really feel like chasing this rabbit hole down. So if you have a problem with it and if you claim it's not true then you "Scholar Sam1528" can correct it.


But I already know your response other then that. You will say "The Saudi's don't practice Sharia law" lol.

So lets review. I have the majority of the scholars, I have a FATWA and now I have a Islamic country who practices it.

The evidence is over whelming for anyone who is not a BIGOT.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

You have avoided answering my questions. My questions again :
(1) Do you believe the life of a muslim is less than that of a christian? Yes or No?
(2) If no , why do you (a zionist christian) support the apartheid state of Israel?

What do you mean if Sharia has not been implemented then Islam is a failure? Then what is the value of Sharia courts in the muslim majority countries? Didn't you do any research before answering me?

If the majority of the classical scholars agreed on it , it is still an opinion. It is not binding. Why can't a recently issued fatwa negate the opinions of the 'majority of (the classical) scholars'?

What failure of Islam are you talking about? If you talk about Sharia Law , the archbishop of canterbury advocated sharia law for the muslims in UK settling family disputes. Its still sharia law.

What nonsense are you talking about 'idealogy of bigotry'? Two things
(1) there is a fatwa stating that a muslim who murders a non muslim , the penalty is death
(2) There has been no practical application of such 'ideoloty of bigotry'. Caliph Ali(ra) (per the weblink I provided) stated that the retaliation / blood money for a non muslim is equal to a muslim.

You are harping on opinions which you call 'ideology of bigotry'. I am giving proof that you are a practicing bigot for your wholesome support of Israel.

Is the 'Reliance of the Traveller' a binding canonical text for muslims? If it is not , why are you implying that we muslims need to follow it word for word? Then what is the use of the current muslim jurisprudence experts? You need to be able to utilise intelligence and reasoning. I do hope such is not alien to you.

Are you trying to bring up the pact of Omar(ra) once again? The reference that you provided from Ibn Kathir stated clearly that the christians were the ones who imposed such conditions upon themselves. Caliph Omar(ra) only added that non muslims were not permitted to beat up muslims.

You could not answer , you disappear and bring up the same thing again.

Looks like you are just closing your ears with your hands shouting 'lalala'.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Fatwa 86122 is about accident that has killed a person. In verbatim of the question '..If somebody has had an accident and has killed a person, how much money does he need to pay (Diya)?..'

You should say big thank you to us muslims that we have an 'ideology of bigotry' that compensates for a person having been killed in an accident. If its an auto accident , the insurance payout will be an additional bonus.

Which country with judeo christian ideology have a 'majority of scholars opinion' forcing compensation for a person who has been killed due to an accident? In most cases , you need to wait for the insurance payout. Maybe or maybe not payout will be done.

Looks like you don't even understand what you read.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

I have dealt with fatwa 86122 - about the accident in my second post. Looks like you don't even understand what you read.

Now you bring up the issue about the sign of the hour in which there will be fighting. The tree speaks out of jews hiding behind it.

If I am not mistaken this has been explained thoroughly by bro tgv19. What has this got to do with 'ideology of hatred'?

rev19:15 state of your 'god' taking a sword from his mouth and striking down non christians. In the same vein , is this an 'ideology of hatred'?

By the way. Muslims weren't the ones gassing the jews. I leave it to you to find out the religion of the people who gassed the jews.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

The wiki reference you provided is from the consulate general of India based in jeddah (http://www.cgijeddah.com/cgijed/welfare/deathbooklet.htm).

Its compensation for unnatural death in Saudi.

As far as I know , it is the death penalty even for a muslim killing a non muslim in Saudi Arabia (however I stand to be corrected).

Why do you still insist that the value of life of non muslim is less than a muslim in Saudi? The convicted murderer gets the death penalty regardless of his religion.

Therefore the 'blood money' is a bonus. Its compensation. Your claim its an 'idelogy of hatred' is nonsensical.

Can you point out to me which western country compensates the victim's family after executing the murderer?

The Fat Man said...

SAM1528 said...

"You have avoided answering my questions. My questions again :
(1) Do you believe the life of a muslim is less than that of a christian? Yes or No?
(2) If no , why do you (a zionist christian) support the apartheid state of Israel?"

No sir I didn't avoid it, I will not answer it. Since even if Chritans and Jews are the most vile evil people in the world, it does not make ISLAM RIGHT. Stop using us KUFFAR as a example of how to behave or as a measuring rod.

You also said...
"What do you mean if Sharia has not been implemented then Islam is a failure? Then what is the value of Sharia courts in the muslim majority countries? Didn't you do any research before answering me?"

So Sharia has been implemented in Majority Islamic nations now. SO that means the Saudi's are practicing Sharia, The Iranians are practicing Sharia, the Pakistani's are practicing Sharaia etc...??????

You also said...
"If the majority of the classical scholars agreed on it , it is still an opinion. It is not binding. Why can't a recently issued fatwa negate the opinions of the 'majority of (the classical) scholars'?"

Thats called BIDA (innovation) and that's a NO NO. Didn't you do any research before you answered me?

You also said...
"Therefore the 'blood money' is a bonus. Its compensation. Your claim its an 'idelogy of hatred' is nonsensical."

NO SIR YOU ARE JUST WRONG. BLOOD MONEY IS USED IN PLACE OF PUNISHMENT. IT BUYS THE FREEDOM OF THE KILLER, IT IS A SUBSTITUTE AND IT IS AT VICTIMS FAMILY REQUEST.

So if THE FAMILY of the VICTIM choose Blood Money the killer goes free if he can pay.

But even if you were correct.
Look at the table, if the victim is anything but a Muslim then the killer get's to pay LESS. That means the value of a NON MUSLIM is less then that of a MUSLIM.

This is obvious to anyone who is not a Islamic BIGGOT.

Sam1528 I will give you credit, you did better then your Muslim brothers who refused to even touch this topic. I think they knew better.


Either way here is the bottom line. The LIFE of a NON MUSLIM, is MONETARILY WORTH LESS then that of a MUSLIM.

I have shown you that from the majority of your scholars, from the words of Mohamed himself, and even from a modern day Islamic state that practices it.

THAT IS BIGOTRY to say that the life of one group is worth less then another.

sam1528 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Thank you for admitting you will not answer the question. That is the standard answer we can expect from religious bigots in the likes of you practicing 'ideology of bigotry'. Inconsistent and having double standards.

Of course they are practicing Sharia law. What is the function of the Sharia courts complementing the 'secular courts' in those countries if Sharia Law is not practiced? Didn't you do any research about Sharia courts in the countries you mentioned?

Bid'aa is something that is being done (which goes against the Quran / Sahih Hadiths) in most cases without reference and proper clearance from the religious authorities plus scholars. The fatwa I provided comes from one of the highest academia in the muslim world. Do you know the meaning of Bid'aa? If you are ignorant , don't advertise it. You will be badly exposed.

What happens if the family prefer the death sentence? The murderer will be executed. This means the life of the murdered non muslim has the 'same value' to that of the murderer who happen to be a muslim. The murderer's life is in the hands of the family members of the non muslim victim , literally speaking. They make the choice. Where is the so called 'not equal' terms here?

What is the issue? The same law is being applied to a non muslim who murder a muslim. If the family can afford the 'blood money' the murderer goes free.

part 1

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

part 2

You have again conveniently forgotten 2 important points :
(1) You bring up the issue of compensation , exposing your ignorance , again. The payment of jizya traditionally has been 1 dirham on able bodied males only whereas muslim pay 2.5% of the non depleted income as zakat. Simple economics. You pay more the benefits is better. Don't you use your brains to think? An analogy – you only pay for an economy class plane ticket but you expect first class amenities. Only crazy people have such expectation.
(2) Historical fact confirm the retaliation / 'blood money' for non muslim murdered by a muslim has been equal. Refer to the judgement of Caliph Ali(ra) per the weblink provided. Apart from that , historically there has been no practical application based on the 'opinions of the majority of scholars' from your favourite reference , 'Reliance of the Traveller'. You need to start facing reality instead living in a fantasy world fantasising about 'muslim monsters'.

Actually I am the dumb one. The rest of the muslim brothers prefer to engage in practical discussions. Not with a person trying to have an argument based on fantasy / conjectures.

What so called 'bottom line' have you proven? The only thing that you have successfully confirmed is that you are a practicing religious bigot with an 'ideology of bigotry'.

You can provide a thousand opinions but so far zero practical application. All practical application of the so called 'ideology of bigotry' has been proven to be quite opposite to your argument. Historical data is in support of the fact that in reality the non muslims have been treated equally with the muslims despite paying jizya which is less in value to zakat. However your bigoted mind is not able to comprehend such.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 you said...

"What happens if the family prefer the death sentence? The murderer will be executed. This means the life of the murdered non muslim has the 'same value' to that of the murderer who happen to be a muslim. "

WOW, Well thats good to know that Muslims kill both Muslims and Non Muslims equally. You really got me there.

But what if they don't want the man to die. How much money can a Non Muslim get? Is it the same as a MUSLIM, in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia?

The answer is clearly NO.

And you don't find that to be Bigoted, you don't find that to be devaluing NON MUSLIMS LIVES?

Let me put it to you in another way.

Lets say we lived in a BIZARO world, where the US practiced the same thing that KSA practices. Lets say that instead of Muslims getting more money it was in fact NON MUSLIMS who received more money.

Lets say that your father and my father were driving together in the same car, when they were killed by a drunk driver.

For what ever reason we both decide to take BLOOD MONEY.

Now I as a non Muslim get $100,000 for my father and you as a Muslim get's $50,000 for your father.

So who's live was valued more monetarily my father or yours?

If you answer this question I will answer your two questions.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Such a weak argument. You have lost the argument hombre. Now you are trying to be funny saying ' ..good to know that Muslims kill both Muslims and Non Muslims equally..'. Trying to be funny exposes your weak argument. It shows that you have nothing in you anymore.

Why should the authorities in Saudi pay an equivalent sum to non muslims who by the way are foreigners? Ever heard of the phrase '..charity begins at home..'? As a real life example unemployment benefits are not extended to foreigners in the western world. In teh case of KSA , its just that the authorities in Saudi regard muslims as one. You are not in a position to question that.

I don't find it bigoted as no government is responsible to compensate foreigners. Consider this , I am a foreigner working in the US. Am I eligible for any government compensation? Yes or No? Again you never use your brains.

What a dumb example. Is the population of BIZARO 100% muslim as in Saudi? Yes or No?

You have already answered my 2 questions. You have confirmed yourself to be a religious bigot.

Anonymous said...

@Sam1524 Fatman sorry having problems logging into blogger.

You said...
"Why should the authorities in Saudi pay an equivalent sum to non muslims who by the way are foreigners?"

Well its not the Saudi Government that pays the Blood Money, its the accused\convicted who pays the BLOOD MONEY.

Secondly it says Muslim, there are Muslims who work in KSA who are not Saudi citzens. There is African Muslims, Pakistani Muslims, Indonesian Muslims, etc...

So you failed there.

Second this is not about Unemployment insurance or charity, or any other straw-man you try to use to wiggle your way out of answering the question.

Instead it's about money that is to be paid to the victims family from the pocket of the accused\convicted. As a substitute for his punishment.

As a mater of fact, Saudi law says it has to come from him or his family and they can not go on TV or use fund raisers to raise the money.

You said...
"I am a foreigner working in the US. Am I eligible for any government compensation? Yes or No? Again you never use your brains."

This has nothing to do with blood money as stated above the money is to be paid for by the family not the government. Also there are Non Saudi Muslims working in KSA. So the amount to be paid for their life is the same as a Saudi Citizen.

You also said...

"What a dumb example. Is the population of BIZARO 100% muslim as in Saudi? Yes or No?"

Again nothing to do with Blood Money.

So pretty much everything you said had nothing to do with Blood Money. Please try again, and this time stick to the subject and that is BLOOD MONEY and the different amounts to be paid to the Victims Family from the family of the one responsible for his or her death.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528
Looks like my orignal response to you did not post.
Part one
First I fail to see how what you wrote has anything to do with Blood Money, and second I don't see how I am loosing a argument when you have yet to address my argument.

You said... "Why should the authorities in Saudi pay an equivalent sum to non muslims who by the way are foreigners? Ever heard of the phrase '..charity begins at home..'?"

Blood money is not paid by the government nor is it charity. It is paid to the victims families by the family or individual responsible for the death of another. Not only that but in KSA the family or individual responsible for the death of another, can not go on TV or hold fund raisers to raise the money. The money must be paid in a very short time, a day or two etc...

You also said...
"As a real life example unemployment benefits are not extended to foreigners in the western world. In teh case of KSA , its just that the authorities in Saudi regard muslims as one. You are not in a position to question that."

Wow blood money is not unemployment insurance second blood money can be paid to both Saudi as well as foreign workers, whether they are Muslims or anything else. I'm not sure if only Saudi's can pay it or not. Or if paying it is only re severed for Muslims. However this is not the issue.

You said...
"I don't find it bigoted as no government is responsible to compensate foreigners. Consider this , I am a foreigner working in the US. Am I eligible for any government compensation? Yes or No? Again you never use your brains."

Yeah again nothing to do with Blood Money.

You said "What a dumb example. Is the population of BIZARO 100% muslim as in Saudi? Yes or No?"

The example is simple, the US is the same as it is now however we have blood money set up for victims of accidental or intentional homicide, and if the victim is Muslim then those responsible for the death, pay less then if he or she was a Non Muslim.

You said...
"You have already answered my 2 questions. You have confirmed yourself to be a religious bigot."

Can you show me where I answered you?

Well in conclusion Sam1528 so far you have not engaged my argument. I never once brought up the fact that Muslims are not to be killed over a non Muslim. That was you and I refuted you on that. Your only response was to appeal to a Fatwa that says it ignores the Majority of Islamic Scholars. Then to ask for historical evidence that this was ever enforced in Islamic countries. If I wanted to chase that rabbit hole down I'm sure I could find some instance of this happening. However since it is not my argument, then I don't feel I should.

So can you address the issue of BLOOD MONEY and the amounts to be paid are less for Non Muslim victims?

The Fat Man said...

Sam1528

In other words if you are re defining Blood Money, then you must show brove for your re definition.

Demonstrate where Blood Money is to be paid by the government, show me where it is just like Unemployment Insurance or charity.

Ali said...

blood money in the NT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_pieces_of_silver

The Fat Man said...

Ali said...
blood money in the NT:

JUDAS really JUDAS. Ok you see were accepting blood money lead him.

Honestly man you getting more and more incoherent as time goes by

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Thank you , that is the answer I have been waiting for. I have been stringing you all along as you have this nasty habit of avoiding answering questions on issues that you feel will undermine your position.

If the KSA government is not responsible for the blood money , its even worse. The non muslims are not dhimmi status. In reality the KSA government is not even obliged to enforce blood money payment on foreigners. You should say a big thank you that foreigners can opt for blood money as an alternative. In the western world , the murderer does not get executed and the victim's family do not have a say in asking blood money. Likely the murderer gets out of jail after 15 years. Where is the justice?

Inconsistency from you once again. In retrospect , I think you are blinded by christian zionist bigotry that you do not have the mental capacity to compare the system of justice. Lets compare
** In the western world the murderer goes to jail for a determined period of time. Nothing the victim family can do about anything
** In KSA its the death penalty or blood money if the victim's family so demand.
Its obvious the law in KSA is a lot superior as the victim's family have options at their disposal.

Isn't the system of blood money an enforced system by the government? Therefore it is a government based compensation scheme. Nobody ask the murderer to murder anybody. Why should the government pay for the said crime?

That is why I say your example is a dumb one. What is the government of 'BIZARO'? Is their law based on the Quran? Who is the dhimmi status in BIZARO? You have not even define such parameters , you come up ask what do I feel if your father , a christian , gets more compared to my father , a muslim in the blood money payment.

Hello!! Is there such compensation in the christian justice system? In fact is there any system in the christian justice? Where is the justice system in the NT?

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

I have answered the first part of your post in my previous post.

Do the muslims in the US pay less insurance premium than the non muslims , say like for like? The answer is no. If the premium is the same , why should the muslim get less. In the case of 'dhimmi' they pay a lot less and only levied on able bodied males. You pay less , the benefit is less. Simple economics application.

Your refusal to answer has confirmed that you are a religious bigot. Simple and straight forward. Why is it so difficult for you to answer the 2 simple questions?

What have you refuted?
(1) You cannot even understand the concept of economics of payment versus benefit
(2) You cannot even comprehend , much less compare the system of justice between KSA and the western world
(3) You argument is based on conjectures not practical application. Its devoid of historical fact. In reality the application of blood money compensation is opposite to your claim.
(4) Subconsciously you are trying to force the opinions from the book 'Reliance of the Traveller' to be a muslim canonical text.

In other words data talk , bull shit walk.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Where am I redefining blood money? I said apart from the blood money (if chosen) system enforced by KSA , the insurance is a bonus. I compared that to the insurance system in the US.

I think I have more than adequately answer you.
1) Do you understand the concept of economics of payment versus benefit? The dhimmi pays a lot less and its only on able bodied males. You pay less you should expect less benefit.
2) Historical evidence , Caliph Ali(ra) has established that the retaliation / blood money is the same for muslim and non muslim
3) Your only argument is 'the opinion of the majority of scholars' and the opinion in the book 'Reliance of the Traveller' Has this 'opinion of the majority of the scholar' been implemented and enforced? Its the opposite in reality , refer to #2. Even the recent fatwa from Al Azhar is in support of Caliph Ali(ra). Are you saying whatever written in 'The Reliance of the Traveller' cannot be changed?
4) Then you start moaning about KSA and their blood money compensation system. Are the people in question dhimmis? If not , KSA has no obligation to enforce blood money as compensation. You should give them a big thank you.

Right now you don't even have a case to argue.

The Fat Man said...

Sam1528 said...

"You should say a big thank you that foreigners can opt for blood money as an alternative."

Wow non Muslims should thank the Sauid's for being worth less monetarily then Muslim's. Wow how progressive.

You said... "In the western world , the murderer does not get executed and the victim's family do not have a say in asking blood money. Likely the murderer gets out of jail after 15 years. Where is the justice?"

I can not speak for all the western world, but in the US at least in my state Murder's get life, and even the death penalty. Also there is WRONGFULL Death lawsuits. So anything that the Murder has now belongs to the victims family. They can not make money from there crime as in books and movies, all goes to the victims family. So that argument was ust nonsensical.

You said...
"Why should the government pay for the said crime?"

I never said it did, that was your argument remember that it was the Sauid Government who paid it.

You also said...
"Hello!! Is there such compensation in the christian justice system? In fact is there any system in the christian justice? Where is the justice system in the NT?"

The Justice system is GOD. He delevers his justice, something to be avoided, something not to be asked for something, I wouldn't even want my worst enemy to experience.

But in the criminal justice system of the west as I explained the victims family not only gets the person responsible for the crime punished with life or even death. But they also get "Blood Money". Even if the murder is found not guilty. Just ask OJ Simpson.

You see each life is worth equally under the law.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528

You said...
"Do the muslims in the US pay less insurance premium than the non muslims , say like for like? The answer is no. If the premium is the same , why should the muslim get less."

First insurance premiums are not based on a persons relegion. Second people do pay more insurance premiums and get less coverage then people who pay less. For instance a person with heart problems will have to pay more for insurance premiums and then be excluded from receiving coverage for their heart condition. (This is supposed to be changing under Obamacare, but I will believe that when I see it).

You then said the most bigoted thing you could of said.

"In the case of 'dhimmi' they pay a lot less and only levied on able bodied males. You pay less , the benefit is less. Simple economics application."

First a couple of things on this.
In the west a tax rate is not based on one's religion. Second and more importantly, a persons worth is not based on how much taxes they pay. We are all equal under the law. If a man kills a person whether he is a homeless bum or Bill Gates, under the law they are both equal.

You don't get less justice because of your religion or because of you pay less taxes. Talk about BIGOTRY you just defined it.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 you said...
"Where am I redefining blood money? I said apart from the blood money (if chosen) system enforced by KSA , the insurance is a bonus. I compared that to the insurance system in the US."

You did try to redifine blood money you said it was the Saudi governement who paid it when that is not the case. Also it is not a BONUS, it is either or. The person responsible for the death of another is either punished for the crime, or he is LET GO with paying out blood money from his own pocket or that of his family to the family of his victim.

It is not insurance, a insurance premium, or any other such nonsense. The amount of a persons worth is based his religion. THAT IS BIGOTRY. In other words they're NOT EQUAL.

In the west you are EQUAL under the law whether in spite of your religion or in spite of how much you pay in taxes.

Again being NOT EQUAL is NOT EQUAL regardless of the reasons.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528 you summed up in 4 points. for brevity sake I will not repost your points only respond to them.

Point number 1, I have already demonstrated that you don't know what your talking about using insurance premiums v's benefits. Since insurance premiums are not based on religion, and since people do pay more in insurance premiums and receive less coverage.

But more importantly you demonstrated total bigotry by saying someone who pays less in taxes because of their religion receives less government services. In the west you get the same access to services no matter if you pay taxes or not. WE ARE ALL EQUAL UNDER THE LAW.

Point number 2. The fact that KSA does not follow ALI demonstrates that this is not always the case.


Point number 3,

Again the Saudi's practice this, and you have said that the Saudi's practice Sharia law. So yes in MODERN HISTORY demonstrates that the OPINION OF THE MAJORITY OF SCHOLARS HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED.


And point number 4. Sorry I don't thank people for discriminating against me or saying that I am worth less the someone else because of my religion or because I pay less in taxes.

You said...
Right now you don't even have a case to argue.

This is the fist thing you said that I agree with you on that is factual. Your right nothing to argue ISLAM IS BIGOTRY.

So I end this, you have demonstrated with your only argument that the monetary worth of a human life is based on

1. Their relgion
2. How much they pay in taxes

Both demonstrate BIGOTRY.

Thanks for playing and GO BEARS

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

A pattern is emerging. How come you are unable to counter the argument? You are just repeating 'ooh the non muslim get less - bigotry!!'. You already sound like a broken record.

What have the foreigners contributed in the form jizya? If none , by right they are not entitled to anything. Therefore you should say a big thank you to KSA for providing an alternative form of compensation - blood money. Logic - isn't it?

I am talking about country versus country. Not state. If the convicted murderer gets life imprisonment , there is a possibility of parole. The family of the victim has no say in anything. Is there blood money as an alternative compensation? No

How much $$ do you burn in lawyer fees to bring about such lawsuit? The justice system is based on who has the buckroos.

That I admit to have mislead you as I wanted you to answer that the blood money is paid by the family of the victim. In which you did. That makes your argument worse off.

Oooh .. the christian justice system is god? Why do you need secular courts in the bible belt of the US? Just let god deal with the criminals in the end of the day. The crux of the issue is that christianity do not have any justice system in what ever form in the NT. This again highlight the inconsistency in your part. You as a christian do not have any 'god delivered' system of justice but find it convenient to criticise Islam. Don't you agree you need to clean your own house first?

What 'blood money' from OJ Simpson? The civil suit was about
(1) wrongful death of goldman
(2) battery of nicole
He lost the civil suit ~ 1997. I believe he has not paid a single cent as the renewal of the suit was made in 2008.

In essence , nicole's / goldman's lives were worthless. If he cannot pay , will he be executed? He has already been acquitted of the murder charge. We don't know how much $$ was burnt bringing about the lawsuit. Probably it could have bankrupted the family.

No matter how you twist and turn , you still cannot prove your case as your example highlight the fact that life is worthless in the so called judeo christian countries.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Thank you for this statement :
'..people do pay more insurance premiums and get less coverage then people who pay less..'

Its the same concept. You pay less the benefit is less. What is the issue?

Why are complaining about bigotry as you admitted , '..a person with heart problems will have to pay more for insurance premiums and then be excluded from receiving coverage for their heart condition..'. Is there bigotry against people having heart problems?

In any muslim countries , no matter what religion you are , if you murder someone no matter what religion the person is the penalty is the same. What is your issue?

You twist and turn but in essence you have nothing. Economics of benefit against payment still rule.

However we muslims have one up against you. Historical data support the fact that the dhimmis even though they pay less get the same retaliation / blood money benefit as the muslim. We are better than you christians.

sam1528 said...

thefatman

Point 1.
You have exposed yourself again. Didn't you admit to the fact that in the case of insurance you pay less , the benefit is less? Its is the economics of benefit against payment. What is the difference? Everybody in the west pays income tax with no exception. The tax payer expect equal treatment. Why do you expect equal treatment if you only pay 1 dirham (on able bodied males only) against 2.5% of zakat by the muslims? You want a free ride or what? Even that Caliph Ali(ra) in his generosity gave the non muslims a free ride.

Point 2
You still have not manage to refute why should KSA even enforce the blood money compensation for foreigners. They are not dhimmi status nor pay jizya. Again you are looking for a free ride?

Point 3
Implementation of what? The foreigners pay the jizya in KSA? Answer is no? If no jizya payment has been made by right there should not even be any blood money compensation rights for the foreigners in the KSA. Again in their generosity a free ride has been provided in the enforcement of blood money. Even that you complain. Life does not work in that manner. No money no honey.

Point 4
You pay less in anything you will get less benefit. It is the reality of life. You don't usually get free rides in life.

A pattern has emerged from the 4 cases that you have been arguing. In essence , you want a free ride. Failing to get that , you throw a tantrum crying bigotry.

Historically Caliph Ali(ra) gave you guys a free ride. Even that is not enough.

In the end of the day you are just crying about opinions that have not been implemented much less enforced. Wow!! Talk about being delusional.

I am not into american sports. My worry is that LFC is 5 points from the relegation zone.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528

Thank you for successfully proving my point that Islam teaches Bigotry. A couple of bigoted highlights from your rant.

"What have the foreigners contributed in the form jizya? If none , by right they are not entitled to anything. Therefore you should say a big thank you to KSA for providing an alternative form of compensation - blood money. Logic - isn't it?"

First let's be honest, by forginers you mean non Muslims. Remember there are Muslim forginers who work in KSA too. So Non Muslims should not expect anything from it's host country. That is extreamly bigoted.

In the US all foreigners regardless of there religion even if they are illegal get the same rights and access to services as Citizens.

You said...
"However we muslims have one up against you. Historical data support the fact that the dhimmis even though they pay less get the same retaliation / blood money benefit as the muslim. We are better than you christians."

No they don't. Lets take a look. KSA is a Muslim country, in KSA non Muslims get less in blood money.
And there is that pride I spoke about. Viewing yourself as better then others. "We are better than you christians.

You said even more bigoted things...

"You still have not manage to refute why should KSA even enforce the blood money compensation for foreigners. They are not dhimmi status nor pay jizya. Again you are looking for a free ride?"

It's called equality.

The Fat Man said...

@Sam1528

In your rant you demonstrated some serious reading comprehension problems.

You said...
"Thank you for this statement :
'..people do pay more, insurance premiums and get less coverage then people who pay less..'

Its the same concept. You pay less the benefit is less. What is the issue?"

I have highlighted in bold were I clearly said "People pay MORE and GET LESS" Thats the exact Opposite of your argument.

Another instance demonstrating your reading comprehension problem.

You said...

"You have exposed yourself again. Didn't you admit to the fact that in the case of insurance you pay less , the benefit is less?"

I said the exact opposite, people pay more in insurance premiums and get less in benefits.

This next statement demonstrates the inconsistency of your argument.

" Its is the economics of benefit against payment. What is the difference? Everybody in the west pays income tax with no exception. The tax payer expect equal treatment. "

So by your logic if a person in the US doesn't pay taxes or pays less taxes then say Bill gates, that means that the person who pays less should receive less rights and government services, instead of equality?

And finally I love this statement.
"That I admit to have mislead you as I wanted you to answer that the blood money is paid by the family of the victim. In which you did. That makes your argument worse off."

Wow so a Muslim deliberitly misleads someone, and this makes my argument worse?
And second I never once argued that it was KSA that paid the blood money I specifically said numerous times that it was the person responsible or his family that paid the blood money.

So let's review.
1. You MISLEAD someone to get them to admit what they have been saying all along.

2.You repost my argument that people pay more in insurance premiums and receive less coverage but then say I admit that people who pay less receive less?

3. You demonstrate the total bigotry by saying that "foreigners" should not expect anything from their host country, and that Muslims are better then Christians.

So in essence not only did you NOT refute my argument. You demonstrated very clearly that my argument is correct.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Why is it bigoted? In the first place the foreigners do not pay jizya. It up to the authorities on how they want to enforce such. Whatever they decide , nobody has a say because nobody is paying any jizya. Are you are looking for a freebies?

Bzzzzt!! Wrong. If the foreigners are illegal , they get thrown into a cage awaiting to be deported. By the way , is profiling muslims visiting the US bigotry?

Do the foreigners in KSA pay jizya? If no then you do not have any case. You are not even eligible for blood money. You are just looking for freebies.

The murderer of a non muslim goes scott free? No

Any jizya levied on the foreigners? No

Compulsary zakat levied on the muslim foreigners? Yes

Then you complain? You need to wake up and face reality.

sam1528 said...

thefatman ,

Jizya traditionally is 1 dirham levied on able bodied males. Zakat is 2.5% compulsory on the person's income.

Can you calculate which is higher? 1 dirham or 2.5% of a person's income not withstanding jizya is only on able bodied males.

Its logical , the law of benefit versus payment come to play. Any reasonable person cannot comprehend your delusional ranting.

You are scatter shooting. In most cases if you sign up for insurance , the higher premium you choose , the better the benefit.

Err , income tax is based on percentage not the $ value. Why are you blabbering about people who pays less in taxes (dollar value) to bill gates? Do you have any inkling what you are talking about?

What is the issue? I mislead you as you have this nasty habit of not wanting to answer when it undermines your position. Its out of necessity.

I fully agree that blood money comes from the family. However in KSA it is a government effort , implemented and enforced by the government.

Point 1
I mislead you as you have this very nasty habit of not wanting to answer when the situation undermines your position. You need to be dragged out of your shell. Read sun tzu art of war.

Point 2
All insurance in general - people who pay more in premium gets less benefit? Yes or No?

Point 3
Of course muslims are better than christians. We treat the jews and non muslim better. Look at spain after the victory of ferdinand / isabella.

The foreigners in KSA have not paid any jizya against compulsory zakat but wants equal compensation? Life does not work in that manner.

Your argument is correct? Your argument is about you complaining of not getting freebies.