Dr James White rages with fury as Sheikh Muhammed Ahmed Awal cancels the debate; an unjust fury on the part of James White
The debate between James White and Sheikh Muhammad Ahmed Awal ("Jesus: A Prophet of Allah or Divine Son of God?") has been cancelled due to the irresponsible actions of an egomaniacal “evangelist” named David Wood.
Responsible Muslim Decision
This is a responsible decision which was made by Sheikh Awal and the mosque which was due to hosting Awal. I applaud the responsible decision by Sheikh Awal and the Muslims of the locality
However, Dr James White is furious; this man really wanted the debate to go ahead and does not understand the decision for some reason. White angrily exclaims:“I am truly disgusted. I just got off the phone with Sheikh Awal. Here is the situation: the members of the mosque that is hosting him have demanded that he not debate me tonight. Why? Because David Wood was arrested at the Arabic Festival a few days ago. Miss the connection? So do I, and so does any honest, rational human being. “
James White seems to be acting selfishly and unjust; White really wanted to debate and the disappointment is influencing his demeanour, which is a demeanour soaked in fury!
James White needs to think of the bigger picture and act responsibly. The good folk of the mosque do not want any controversy; Muslims are under a microscope and are being scrutinized for any irregularities and disconnections in public relations. Thus it would have been reckless of the mosque and Sheikh Awal to continue with the debate especially considering David Wood is connected in a noticeable way with James White.
James White insults the mosque leaders in connecting the shamed David Wood with Dr James White and he questions how a connection can be made. James White should know better; his emotions were clearly clouding his judgement when he wrote this derogatory piece against Sheikh Awal and the senior Muslims hosting and advising Sheikh Awal.
James, the Connection is Elementary
Dr James White misses the connection but the astute mosque leaders made the OBVIOUS connection. Both James White and David Wood are intrinsically linked by a common supporter base; especially when debating Muslims. Thus David Wood’s supporters would have been at the event and the vigilant Muslims were mindful of this.
Therefore, the decision of Awal and the senior Muslims was the correct decision and in the best interest of all concerned; the nightmare scenario would have been the debate going ahead and David Wood’s more vocal and aggressive supporters turning up causing a scene and even bedlam.
In any case, with tensions already high, in the locality, between Muslims and Christians thanks to the controversial “evangelist”, David Wood, a debate would have only served to FUEL TENSION – this of course is not in the best interest of dialogue
It was a decision based on foresight, safety and a spirit of good friendship – we just wish Dr James White would see it this way
Dr James White and his Friends: Unwise
For a good while I have been inviting James White to disassociate himself from dubious characters and White’s lack of positive action is affecting him negatively. Why in the world did James White agree to be part of a debate series which included two of the most controversial “apologists” within Christendom (Sam Shamoun and David Wood)?
There was every possibility debates would have been jeopardised based on the mere presence of David Wood and Sam Shamoun. Both being friends of Dr James White
James White Unfairly brands Sheikh Awal a Bigot
Dr James White states, rather angrily:
“then it is perfectly correct, in the minds of bigoted men, to hold others responsible for their actions.”
Calm down James, you are being unjust.
Dr James White is simply being immature and allowing his disappointment of the cancellation to get the better of him. This was an uncalled for and unjust attack on Sheikh Awal and the Muslim leaders. They simply made a decision which was in the best interest of the local community, the rationale for their decision has already been explained, above, and this rationale is sound.
James White needs to stop throwing his toys out of the pram as he is only portraying himself in a poor light.
Intimations of Insincere Motives
James White suggests the debate was called off because Sheikh Awal performed badly at the previous debate:
“If last night's debate had gone well for the Islamic side, would this objection even be offered? I will let you judge that”
James White has lost sense of rational perspective; even if Awal performed badly at the previous debate (I have not seen it) it does not mean Awal would cancel this debate as this debate is about a completely different topic. In fact this isa topic which has traditionally been a favourite of Muslim debaters – I would imagine Sheikh Awal is not different and enjoys debating the topic related to the claims of “deity” Trinitarian Christians put on Jesus (p).
So James should stop with the insinuations and insults as he is displaying himself in a negative fashion. Sheikh Awal does not deserve such an unwarranted attack. I hope Dr James White sees good sense, after he has calmed down, and apologizes
An Unchecked Platform
Dr James White decided to go ahead to the venue in Romulus and give a presentation after the debate was called off. White said:So I am going to head to Romulus tonight and I will give the presentation I was going to give on the deity of Jesus Christ. Then I will play some portions of Sheik Awal's comments video taped in a debate in 2009 and refute them. Then I will take questions
I hope White’s unopposed platform was not misused in the sense of White presenting myopic arguments which are easily countered by the Muslim position. Muslims eagerly await the footage
Rescheduling of the Debate
As a gesture of friendship and good will between Muslims and Christians I would like to encourage both parties concerned to reschedule the debate once all the controversies have died down.
MUST SEE, the Sam Shamoun section:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Sam%20Shamoun
James White section:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/James%20White
Christians having dreams and converting to Islam:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/christians-are-having-dreams-and.html
Invitation to Islam
Jesus taught people to do the Will of God (according to Mark 3:35) in order to become his brothers, mothers or sisters. A Muslim means one who submits to the Will of God. Do you want to become a brother of Jesus? If yes, become a Muslim.
Email:
yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk
Tags: mike licona, shabir ally, john dominic crossan, james white debates, Mormons, catholic answers, ergun caner, tim staples, purgatory, steve Anderson, chris pinto, bart ehrman, pat Madrid, Michael brown, nabeel qureshi, james akin,
Tags: mike licona, shabir ally, john dominic crossan, james white debates, Mormons, catholic answers, ergun caner, tim staples, purgatory, steve Anderson, chris pinto, bart ehrman, pat Madrid, Michael brown, nabeel qureshi, james akin,
84 comments:
Until James White disassociate with those individuals then I think we should ignore him as well; just like we would kick out a Muslim that said what these people say about Christianity from a masjid, we also shouldn't associate with trouble makers. We are calling people to faith in God and doing good deeds, not slandering and name calling and getting arrested. This is religion not battle rap
One post and you cause these missionaries to go into a frenzy. It's like throwing bananas into a cage of monkeys and watching them go crazy over it.
Great stuff.
I see no problem in him deleting spam. Making the same sort of comments on each post is spam.
If you think that posting spam is a sign of great intelligence, then you must certainly be a Christian.
the problem with awal was that he wasn't even prepared. there are so many ways he could have bombed white, but he didn't prepare.
jon from prove me wrong BOMBED white and white the bum said to him, "seriosuly , idon't know what u r talking about"
i quote:
Questions were submitted on 5x7 cards, so I offered one. It was a little complex so I wasn't sure if White would have the knowledge base he needs to address it, but on the other hand discussion of textual variants was front and center throughout the debate. White seemed to have a command of these things. So this is what I asked, working from memory. And I explain this question in more detail here.
At Mark 7 Mark puts in the mouth of Jesus an argument that is based on an erroneous translation of the Hebrew scriptures from the Septuagint. Jesus criticizes the Pharisees by quoting Isaiah saying that they are "teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." That's what the erroneous Septuagint says, but in fact the Hebrew reads something like "Your worship of me is merely an act of going through the motions." It seems unlikely that the Pharisees would be stumped by a mistaken translation of Isaiah in Greek when they work with the Hebrew. Doesn't this suggest that Mark is unreliable and is putting words in the mouth of Jesus that he is unlikely to have said?
Here's how James White replied.
"Mark 7 is about certain hand washing practices from the Pharisees. The questioner presented NO EVIDENCE that there was any rational basis for his conclusion, so there's no way to respond to any of it."
He just extremely confidently said that there was nothing to my argument. Good enough. So I'm sitting there kind of confused. Didn't I just provide the relevant citations? Isn't that evidence? Now, I understand it's not easy to answer such a question on the spot. But part of the reason I asked it is because White constantly asked Awal questions like "Do you have any lexical citations that can justify your understanding of the Biblical text you cited." I thought that was a rather crappy way of treating Awal. What Awal does is he reads English translations and forms arguments based on them. White knows that Awal does not have lexical data at hand, so he can just pull this trump card as a stumper in every case and treat Awal rudely as if he hasn't done his homework. Well, has White done his homework? Shouldn't he know about the variants of the Septuagint and how they emerge in the NT? This subject was a major part of the debate.
After the debate I introduced myself to both Awal and White. I told White that I'm "Jon in Detroit" that calls his webcast sometimes to spar and I told him that I was the one that submitted the Mark 7 question. I told him that I have to fit the question on a 5x7 card and I'm not sure what he's expecting in terms of evidence. He replied "Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about with that question." And I said "Fair enough. That's a reasonable answer." So I suggested he look into it.
But that's not what he said during the debate. He could have said "I don't know enough about the references, so I'll have to consider the question later." I can respect that answer. But that's not his method. He's honed his skills and he knows that this is not the presentation he wants to offer to listeners. That's because truth is not the goal. The goal is being as persuasive as possible. And he was.
end quote
okay,
"Let me know, since we can see how far you get with the LXX being a mistranslation canard, as well as defending all of Muhammad's gross errors concerning the Bible."
shamoun, i'll tell you what, i'll create an account for you for free and start a post here
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
will you come and discuss the misquoted ot verses in the nt?
Sam, I don't think you understand the LXX in the least. At best we have partial archetypes from the 4th century CE. All LXX's today are essentially eclectic vorlages that do not necessarily reflect the unknown Hebraic and Aramaic scrolls of the Old Testament.
The very fact that the oldest Old Testament is atleast 1000 years after Moses and we don't have an LXX contemporary to Christ, his disciples, apostles, presbyters or patristics should inform you quite well that early Christianity simply did not preserve a pagan translated scripture of the Jews.
i will start a discussion in a place where people know greek and hebrew. i will bring evidence that the nt MISQUOTES the hebrew and we will see how well you do there.
i will CREATE an account for you here and START a discussion, i will bring my proof and you can cnp from holding and white if you want
You seem desperate for a debate Sam, unless you demonstrate that you are capable of discussing this topic, why would you expect me to agree to a debate?
Debates are for people who have a similar level of knowledge on a given topic, the very fact that you are unable to show me an ounce of study on this topic, convinces me enough that you simply cannot discuss something reliant on intelligent study.
shamoun are you afraid to receive an intellectual baptism?
why can't cowards like you step in the den where people KNOW thier stuff?
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
so many of your christian brethrens have been baptized that they ADMIT that the nt MISQUOTES the hebrew.
We must have angered Sam, he's got into a copy pasting fit of rage again.
Sam, why can't you stand your own ground and have an honest discussion, why do you need to spam with your copy pastes?
I mean, desperation is a funny thing, but have some integrity and show us that you can discuss something without having a need for Google to do your work for you.
Sam, it's ironic you don't have all night to argue with Muslims this time. Yet when your daughter was sick and rushed to the ER, you chose to sit by your computer and argue with Muslims on Paltalk.
Have you finally realised your daughter is worth more than arguing on the internet?
You seem to be confused Sam. Reading the Bible's perverted stories into the Qur'aan. I do believe that this is called eisegesis.
I mean, it's really cute seeing you struggle to free yourself from the Bible, but trying to claim Islam preaches what the Bible preaches, is just a really strange logic and reasoning.
Also, I'm referring to Lot's daughters getting drunk and sleeping with their daddy. I'm sure you see your daughters like that, why else wouldn't you call that story perverted? Do you read them the story before they sleep each night?
It must really be difficult resisting those urges Sam, given your affection for those passages.
Yahya - Why do you allow posts by people attacking Sam and his daughters?
Yet when Sam posts things on your blog, you just delete them on sight.
Either you should allow Sam's posts, or your should be deleting these other posters who are attacking him.
By the way - "Sam won't debate me" Why don't you reveal your identity so that we can see who you are who supposedly Sam is afraid of.
It doesn't matter who I am. I am who I am, Ehyeh asher ehyeh.
What matters is if Sam can be honest. He has the audacity to call Muslims rock-worshipers when he worships a man, a human, a cross.
He calls us violent, when his own religion praises and glorifies the death and torture of a Jewish man.
He aligns himself with Wood who is known to be a right wing anti-immigrant, when Sam is an immigrant himself.
Sam is a walking contradiction, and the only reason he professes Christianity is because he knows fully well that he cannot get a job with his GED.
Its weird how Sam claims Islam doesn't promote charity but when it is shown we are the most charitable (in countries where we are immigrants) people by a significant margin, he explains it away...
He calls rock worshippers because we kiss it but then doesn't take into consideration he literally bows to crosses and images of a white man nor does he take into account kissing his own wife; even though for her sake I hope he's not kissing her...
He claims Islam promotes violence but doesn't take into consideration that Christians (not the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him) have so much blood on their hands that you couldn't possibly count. A handful of rubble rousers from our religion somehow equals that World Wars, Crusades, Colonialism and all the wars started by his co-Religionists. Even recently, they declassified an interview with Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, who is a criminal in my eyes, and even a criminal like himself doesnt believe in forcing people to convert or spreading Islam by the sword. Sam says, who cares?
Why the double standards? Because he seas Christians leaving his religion and he sees Muslims, not only gaining converts, but actually maintaining our congregations. Could you imagine how it feels to see more cars parked in Masjid parking lots on Sundays in the US and Europe than in the Churches? I know it makes you feel like you wasted your life, Sam; but God is the Most Merciful and All-Forgiving and He will not turn you away.
Christians please don't listen to the hateful ppl in ur churches like this Sam person.
Does anyone know if the picture of Jesus peace be upon him Sam worships is of an Arab man or a European?
Wouldn't be surprised is Sam wished he was white instead of Assyrian.
And now to repeat my debate challenges which you have as yet to accept.
I CHALLENGE YOU TO DEBATE ME ON THE FOLLOWING:
WAS MUHAMMAD A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD?
DID MUHAMMAD BELIEVE THE HOLY BIBLE IS CORRUPTED?
HAS THE QURAN BEEN PERFECTLY PRESERVED?
Time for you to match your bark with a little bit of a bite. Prove to yourself and your fellow stone worshipers that you are no coward but have the guts to refute my arguments and putting me in my place. Here is your chance to step up to the plate in defense of your antichrist prophet.
BTW, is it true Paul Williams left Muhammad for another man? ;-)
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