Wednesday, 30 March 2011

Problems with the Old Testament?

There is a fabulous discussion with regards to the inconsistencies in the Biblical Exodus by Dr Louay Fatoohi and Prof. Shetha Al Dargazelli in their co-authored book. [1]

It is quite a lengthy discussion but well worth the read. Dr M. M Al Azami offers an excellent synopsis of the problem our Christian and Jewish brethren encounter with regards to the Biblical numbering of Israelites at the Exodus.

Number of Israelites at the Exodus estimated at 2,000,000 (two million)

"One year after the Exodus, Moses and Aaron counted the total number of men who were at least twenty years old and of fighting strength. Their tally yielded 603,550 Israelites [see Numbers 1:20-46].

The Levi tribe was not included in this figure, and neither were the females of all ages, old men, and any young men under twenty. Taking these groups into account as well, we can infer that – according to the OT – the total number participating in the Exodus probably exceeded two million Jews.

I will leave it to the imaginative reader to surmise how a tribe of seventy people, freshly arriving in Egypt, were able to multiply in excess of two million within a mere 215 years, especially when their male newborns were being systematically killed for the previous decades. Such is the OT which rests in our hands today." [2]

Summary of the problem

You have the OT asking us to believe 70 new settlers in Egypt yielded a progeny of ~2 million in roughly 200 years. Now, even the most fundamentalist of Christians will start asking questions as it is very unlikely the Biblical account is accurate:

The self-refuted claim here is that the descendents of less than 100 persons counted some 2-3 million after four generations! This contradiction has already been picked up by scholars [e.g. Houtman 1993: 512].

However, in the interest of fairness the fundamentalist Christian answer can be presented and scrutinised…

Fundamentalist Christian answer analysed?

"One way of harmonizing the above contradictions is by suggesting the Hebrew word dor is not to be understood as “generation” in the modern sense. Thus, in his attempt to show his suggestion that four dor equal 400 years is not a mere harmonization exercise, Kenneth Kitchen, Professor of Egyptology at Liverpool University, points out that in Ugaritic and early Assyrian sources, the word daru, and hence the Hebrew word dor, can mean a span of eighty years or more (Kitchen, 1996:54).

Yet even if this was a valid definition of the term dor it does not explain why there were “four” rather than “five generations”, particularly given that 430 is the exact number of years anyway.

This explanatory attempt implies that it was merely fortuitous that Exodus 6:14-26 shows Moses to be from the fourth generation of the descendents of Jacob. Kitchen also eliminates the contradiction caused by Exodus 6:14-26 by suggesting that these verses do not give a full genealogy of Moses, despite the fact that there is no reason, not to give the full genealogy, apart from the harmonization motive, to suggest otherwise." [3]

An easier answer to the problem – suspect the SCRIBES!

Let’s be realistic. We know scribes were changing the New Testament through inadvertent errors (or at times utter dishonesty). Simple reasoning would lead us to suspect the OT scribes were of a similar nature too – thus producing the problem in Numbers 1:20-46.

It’s a simple answer. Our fundamentalist Christian friends will jump through hoops to circumnavigate such simplicity.

To persuade our fundamentalist friends to consider this reasonable approach (of suspecting the scribes) we can appeal to Jeremiah. Here is Jeremiah to tell us the scribes were unreliable and untrustworthy:

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? [NIV,Jeremiah 8:8]

Allah knows best.


[1] History Testifies to the Infallibility of the Quran – Early History of the Children of Israel, Dr Louay Fatoohi and Prof. Shetha Al-Dargazeli, Adam Publishers and Distributers, Delhi, 1999, p 8-18

[2] The History of the Quranic Text from Revelation to Compilation – A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testament, M.M. Al-Azami, UK Islamic Academy, Leicester, 2003, p216

[3] History Testifies to the Infallibility of the Quran – Early History of the Children of Israel, Dr Louay Fatoohi and Prof. Shetha Al-Dargazeli, Adam Publishers and Distributers, Delhi, 1999, p 12

Further reading:

Sexism: A reason to the change the Bible?

Numbers and the Bible do collide on more than one occasion

Discover Islam


Anonymous said...

History Testifies to the Infallibility of the Quran – Early History of the Children of Israel, Dr Louay Fatoohi and Prof. Shetha Al-Dargazeli, Adam Publishers and Distributers, Delhi, 1999, p 8-18

Hmm..seems really un-biased to me :-/

You know something Muslims, when you say things like science 'proves' the Qur'aan, or history 'proves' the Qur'aan, you are in fact affirming that science and history can also dis-prove the Qur'aan. Logically speaking, science and history are 'above' your god. How many times have I heard a Muslim say "science proves the Qur'aan." Frankly, I dont think they understand the implications of saying something like that about their god. It is a really poor conception of God IMHO.

Maybe it is better for Muslims to stick to the "fundamentals" of Islam as presented by a liberal gnostic Jew named Lesley Hazleton than the Quran, Hadith and Sirat?

Anonymous said...

"I will leave it to the imaginative reader to surmise how a tribe of seventy people, freshly arriving in Egypt, were able to multiply in excess of two million within a mere 215 years"

And theres the straw man! Yahya, I think you are the imaginative reader.


While Negeen was filming the following video, Dearborn police officers Brian Kapanowski and Justin Smith, along with several other people, approached her from behind and ordered her to stop filming. Since Negeen had committed no crime and wasn't even accused of committing a crime, Dearborn Police had no lawful authority to order her to stop engaging in Constitutionally protected activity. (That's the First Amendment.)

When Negeen, startled at being approached by no less than six people, didn't immediately comply with Corporal Kapanowski's unlawful order, he grabbed her (an unlawful seizure). When she told him to stop illegally touching her, he snatched her camera from her (another unlawful seizure). He then dragged her out of the tent (another illegal seizure). A little later, Corporal Kapanowski had Negeen thrown into the Dearborn City Jail, and he charged her with two crimes: "Breach of Peace" and "Failure to Obey the Lawful Order of a Police Officer."

Before Negeen's trial even began, her lawyer, Robert Muise, filed a motion showing that Negeen's Constitutional rights had been violated, that she had committed no crime, and that the charges against her must therefore be dismissed. Any respectable prosecutor, in any city that honors the U.S. Constitution, would have immediately thrown out the charges.

Welcome to Dearborn, where City prosecutor William "Sharia Bill" DeBiasi went after Negeen like a man possessed.

Of course, Sharia Bill's war against the U.S. Constitution would have been in vain, had it not been for the Constitution-undermining efforts of Dearborn Judge Mark Somers. Judge Somers declared, before the trial even began, that Corporal Kapanowski had probable cause to arrest Negeen, since Roger Williams had complained about Negeen filming him from a distance while we were talking to him! Judge Somers, who took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, apparently believes a person can be arrested and thrown in jail for filming her friends at a public festival!

Shockingly, at the trial, Corporal Kapanowski admitted, under oath, that filming at a public festival is not a crime, and that Negeen hadn't been accused of doing anything illegal. However, Judge Somers refused to reverse his decision that Corporal Kapanowski had probable cause to arrest Negeen. This means that, according to Judge Somers, a U.S. citizen can be arrested for doing absolutely nothing! Quite a low view of the Constitution, I would say.

Obviously, we weren't going to get a fair trial in the City of Dearborn. Judge Somers wouldn't even allow Negeen's lawyer to present evidence to the jury that Corporal Kapanowski's orders were unlawful. Based on this egregious blunder of Judge Somers, and the deceptive tactics of "Sharia Bill" DeBiasi, Negeen was found guilty of "Failure to Obey the Lawful Order of a Police Officer." She now has a criminal record.

Seems like an obvious victory on appeal, right? In a sane world, where lawyers who agree to uphold the Constitution actually take their oaths seriously, Negeen's appeal wouldn't even be challenged.

Welcome to Dearborn, where the Constitution apparently isn't worth the paper it's written on. After Negeen's appeal was filed, Dearborn attorneys William DeBiasi and Debra Walling filed a massive 69-page attack against Negeen (and America), claiming that it was perfectly acceptable for Corporal Kapowski to manhandle and arrest her.

Anonymous said...

The Logistics of the Exodus

The Exodus Route

Anonymous said...

Okay, here is the million dollar question for Mr. Snow. This is a no-brainer, but watch Yahya fail (which will be the case no matter how he answers):

Would you rather be given a million dollars


The sum total of a dollar, the value of which is doubled over a period of 30 days. For example,

Day 1: 1$
Day 2: 2$
Day 3: 4$
Day 4: 8$

...and so on

So which is it? Door number one or door number two? Don't think too long, the clock is ticking and we are all eagerly waiting to see if you are a winner.

Anonymous said...

Please, nobody help Yahya get the wrong answer. He can do it all on his own. He's good at it.

Anonymous said...

Come on, Yahya. Quit sleeping at the wheel of your studies, chap. What's it gonna be? Door one or two?

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow PART 1

"I will leave it to the imaginative reader to surmise how a tribe of seventy people, freshly arriving in Egypt, were able to multiply in excess of two million within a mere 215 years"

Putting aside the fact that you are a few hundred years off.

Lets take a look at the math.

Let's illustrate the population possibilities with a true-life modern-day Jacob, a fellow named Samuel Must. You can find this fellow listed in any recent Guinness Book of World Records; he died in 1992 at the age of 96, with the honor of being the world’s record-holder for having the most living descendants. He had 11 children, 97 grandchildren, 634 great-grandkids, and 82 great-great grandkids. (That would get expensive at Christmas time.) What would happen if Mr. Must took his clan to live in a foreign country and his descendants continued to live and multiply for 430 years at the same rate?

We will take Mr. Must, his wife, his 11 children, and assuming that they all found mates, his family’s total population would have been 24 once they had finished their child-bearing years. Working out the numbers, let's assume that his family continued to procreate at a rate of 4.5 births per person (which works out to about 10 children per family). If each generation lasts 29 years, then the descendants that give birth in generation X (no pun intended) would pass away in Generation X+2, when their grandchildren were being born.

So, the first generation produces the following results:

Generation// Starting population + Births + Marriages = Population

1// 2 (Mr. Must and wife) + 11 + 11 = 24
After the first generation, let’s assume that his children start intermarrying, so no one is added to the clan via that route.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow part 2

Generation// Starting population + Births - Deaths = Population

2// 24 + 108 - 0 = 132

3 // 132 + 594 - 2 = 724

Now, if this rate continued, the population at the end of 430 years would be over 50 billion (if you don’t believe me, do the math). But, to save that Christmas money, let’s assume that the Mustrealites start getting conservative in the 4th generation, and only have 4 kids per family, or 1.15 per person. (The numbers are rounded, so they may not add up exactly.)

Generation Starting population + Births - Deaths = Population

4 // 724 + 869 - 22 = 1,535
5 // 1,535 + 1,765 -108 = 3,191
6 // 3,191 + 3,670 - 594 = 6,267
7 // 6,267 + 7,208 - 833 = 12,643
8 // 12,642 + 14,539 - 1,765 = 25,417
9 // 25,416 + 29,229 - 3,670 = 50,976
10// 50,976 + 58,622 - 7,208 = 102,390
11// 102,390 + 117,748 - 14,539 = 205,599
12// 205,599 + 236,439 - 29,229 = 412,809
13// 412,809 + 474,731 - 58,622 = 828,918
14// 828,918 + 953,256 - 117,748 = 1,664,426
15// 1,664,426 + 1,914,090 - 236,439 = 3,342,077

At the end of 15 generations, which would not even take the full 430 years needed, the total population is well over the 3 million most commentators suggest as the total population, and without any strain to credulity, or even any miraculous intervention. Skeptical objections to the growth of the Israelite population are simply unreasonable.

See Snowman no imagination there, just simple math.

Radical Moderate said...

Well Anon it looks like the Muslims have been left MUTE once again

Yahya Snow said...


Oh Ok.

So you do not find it a little difficult to believe 70 pioneers turned into 2-3 million within 430 years WHILST male children were being killed sytematically.


My maths (and the maths of scholars) leave alram bells of concern ringing.

BTW Radical, are you not going to ask for archaeological evidence for this Biblical account?

I mean if 2-3 million were living in Egypt you can start excavating and finding evidence straight away.


You, Sam and Dave may as well have a whip round and pay for a trip to Egypt. Don't forget your spades, lads!

The rest of us will just continue to suspect the dubious scribes and stay at home. It's easier.

Enjoy your trip, do send us a postcard.


I heard that somewhere a few days ago too. I guess it has become an internet thing now. I'm not sure who said that.

But the person opted for the latter.

In any case, it's all academic as you don't have the cash.

If you did have the cash you could fund a trip to Egypt and begin digging with Dave, Radical and Sam...

Sometimes you have to joke with these fundamentalist fellas, otherwise you will lose your sanity!


Ali said...

LOL christians blaming sharia for their failures. what don't they blame islam for?

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

How can your maths be so bad?

From you (first 5 generations):
1. 2 (Mr.Must & wife) + 11 + 11 = 24
2. 24 + 108 - 0 = 132
3. 132 + 594 - 2 = 724
4. 724 + 869 - 22 = 1,535
5 1,535 + 1,765 -108 = 3,191
Your assumptions :
(a) First 3 generations : '..4.5 births per person (which works out to about 10 children per family)..'
(b) 4th generation and above : '..only have 4 kids per family, or 1.15 per person..'
(c)'..each generation lasts 29 years..'
(d) '..the descendants that give birth in generation X (no pun intended)..'
(e) '..pass away in Generation X+2, when their grandchildren were being born..'
(f) For the first generation : Starting population + Births - Deaths = Population
(g) subsequent generation : Generation Starting population + Births - Deaths = Population

If each generation last 29 yrs , assumption (c) , the contribution from Mr. Must & wife must be for their generation only , assumption (d). Same applies for the subsequent generations. The said generation will pass away in the third subsequent said generation , assumption (e). Therefore the numbers will be as follows (I will not round off the figures)
1. 2 + 11 + 11 = 24
2. 24 + 99 - 0 = 123
3. 123 + 445.5- 2 = 566.5
4. 566.5 + 887 - 22 = 1431.5
5. 1431.5 + 1730 - 99 = 3062.5

No issues for the first generation. However comparing the subsequent generations :
- how do you get 108 for the ‘birth’ of the 2nd generation? Your assumption of (c) and (d) applies. That means in the 2nd generation Mr. Must & wife do not contribute to the 'birth' anymore. Therefore the 'birth' for the 2nd generation should be ((24-2)/2)x9 = 99 not (24/2x9) = 108.

Therefore the 2nd generation should be
2. 24 + 99 - 0 = 123 not 2. 24 + 108 - 0 = 132

- how do you get 594 for the ‘birth’ of the 3rd generation? Mr. Must & wife , the 11 families (sons / daughters) - the first generation Mustrealites , do not contribute per assumption (c) and (d) (from you). Therefore the 'birth' should be (123-24)/2x9 = 445.5 not (132/2x9) = 594.

The 3rd generation should then be
3. 123 + 445.5 - 2 = 566.5 not 3. 132 + 594 - 2 = 724

The problem with your maths is that
- Mr. Must & wife have 11 kids in the first 29 yrs , 9 more in the next 29 yrs , 9 more in the last 29 yrs before they die at the age of 87 (total 29 kids).
- In the same manner , their children contribute to 99 kids in 29 years and 198(99+99) for the subsequent 58 yrs (29+29) before they die.
- For the 4th generation the ‘birth’ is obtained by multiplying 724 by 1.2. For the 5th generation downwards the 'birth' is obtained by multiplying by 1.15. This means that generation X still contribute to the ‘birth’ even though they are in the 2 age sectors of 29-58 yrs old and 58-87 years old (before they die) thus contradicting assumption (c) and (d).

You should check your maths. Its terrible.

For the 6th generation downwards , the numbers should be as follows :
6.3062.5 + 3262 - 445.5 = 5879
7.5879 + 5633 - 887 = 10625
8.10625 + 9492 - 1730 = 18387
9.18387 + 15524 - 3262 = 30649
10.30649 + 24524 - 5633 = 49540
11.49540 + 37782 - 9492 = 77830
12.77830 + 56580 - 15524 = 118886
13.118886 + 82112 - 24524 = 176474
14.176474 + 115176 - 37782 = 253868
15.253868 + 154788 - 56580 = 352076

This is way below your figures of 3,342,077 for the 15th generation. The following have not even been factored :
(1) infant mortality
(2) them dying between ages of 3 to 29
(3) the pharaoh killing every male child
(4) using 1.15 per person instead of 2 per person (4 kids per family) , assumption (b)

You have been caught again (and again and again ...) trying to pull a fast one. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Anonymous said...

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Radical Moderate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Radical Moderate said...

Sam1528 said...

"You have been caught again (and again and again ...) trying to pull a fast one."

Well Sam no one ever said you were quick. A Tortoise is faster then you.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow

You said...
"So you do not find it a little difficult to believe 70 pioneers turned into 2-3 million within 430 years WHILST male children were being killed sytematically."

I love how Muslims always begin to exajorate numbers. I once heard a Muslim start out by saying there was 1000 civilians killed in the Gazan war, and that number just kept going up and up and up, and by the time he got off the mike it was over 150,000 Gazinians, killed. Man those Israeli's were in the middle of a blood bath when he was on the mic.

Yahya notice how the number went from "Estimated 2 million" to now 2-3 Million."

I'm sure by the time you are done being muted, you will have convinced yourself that there was really 10 million Hebrews.

Secondly what is this claim of yours "WHILST male children were being killed sytematically."

Were are you getting your information from?

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

From you , '..
"You have been caught again (and again and again ...) trying to pull a fast one."

Well Sam no one ever said you were quick. A Tortoise is faster then you..'

Ha ha , poor chap. Your BS has been exposed once again. Your maths is terrible isn't it? Borrowing your words ... suddenly you are muted. You zionist christians never learn , do you. Try to be a bit more honest the next time. Your face / ears must be scarlet in embarrassment. Oops , sorry ... christians like you are thick skin.

Radical Moderate said...

@Yahya Snow

As I stated before, I believe the Exodus account of the bible, that belief is based on faith. Now here is what I can prove, I can prove a group of people existed going back to 1500 BC that worshiped a God called YWHH, I can prove that Geeza existed, I can prove that in 1200 BC, there was a tribe called Israel in the land of Canan, and I can prove that before the time of the exodus Pig Farming was common in Canaan, after the exodus pig farming starts to disapere from the archeological record. Something happened in Canaan during this time.

Now that is more then you can prove for your claim to KNOW that Ishmael settled Mecca, or that Mecca even existed prior to 4 AD.

Now what I find really interesting is how in your zeal to attack the bible you attack your quran.

The Quran gives no details about the Exodus, not even sure if you Muslims believe in a exodus, kind of hard to tell because like everything else in the quran there is no time frame, and no details. It is just the Talmudic explanation.

So are Bible gives great details about the times and places, the people that existed, the cities that existed. Your Quran gives no details what so ever because Mohamed oh I'm sorry Allah didn't know.

Anon1 said...


You obviously don't get the significance of my thought experiment vis-a-vis the population going from 70 to 2,000,000 in a few centuries since you wrote it off as merely "academic". That's why you shouldn't be trying to play apologist.

P.S. who said you need to try to keep your sanity? We are well past that point. Now what we need to do is help you get it back.

minoria said...

In tektonics they give a good answer according to Sarna:

"One proposed solution to the Exodus numbers matter which simply reduces the totals and resolves all of the objections with one fell swoop. The answer in sum: The word translated "thousand" ('elep) ought rather be read as, "family units". Thus for example, as Sarna relates [Sarn.EE, 99], Reuben's "46,500 grown males" would be read as "forty six units"."

Then it says an obstacle is,for example, Numbers 3:39:
"All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses and Aaron numbered at the commandment of the LORD, by their families, all the males from a month old and above, were twenty-two thousand(elep)"

I say that languages often use the same word for different meanings.So if Sarna's linguistic reasons for saying elep can also mean family unit is valid,as he believes it is,then I dont see why the word elep cant be used in one way in the text and another in another part of the text.

Anonymous said...

Pastor had sex with teens to cure their homosexuality

What is it with Christians and homosexuality?

Anonymous said...

I've heard sucking little boys' tongues helps pacify such urges. Some people call it an act of mercy.

Ali said...

the christian anonymous who first commented on this is right on the money. as muslims we're told to spread the spriritual aspects about islam. relying on the miracolous science and prophecies shouldn't be the ideal thing when preaching and giving dawah.

Yahya Snow said...

@Radical Moderate,


You joust got busted fiddling figures in order to make the Biblical seem more plausible.

Radical, think about WHY Tektonics and and Kitchen did not go down the route of attempting to convince us 70 turned into over 2 million in such a short span of time.

The answer is simple, they did NOT believe the numbers were plausible.

Sadly, you (and Shamoun?) went down the route of fudging figures.

You also accused me of over-playing the figure by my stating 2-3 million.

Erm, if you had read the post you would have noted Dr Fatoohi used the same span:

The self-refuted claim here is that the descendents of less than 100 persons counted some 2-3 million after four generations! This contradiction has already been picked up by scholars [e.g. Houtman 1993: 512].

And yes, we are likely to be talking of a number in excess of 2 million.

I hope you can put your pride to one side and admit your errors and recognise there is an issue with the numbers concerned, so much so that your fellow Christians do NOT try to justify the numbers.

Enough said.

Ali said...

did radical just say "exajorate"?

oh yes there were actually 1400 palistinians killed. how is it that the israelie army is soo inacurate that they somehow misfire and blow up a school or a hospital?

BTW, did anyone know that the mayor of the city of Ramallah is a christian women?

Anonymous said...

Another hate crime against Muslims in the USA. This is shocking.

A 13-year-old Muslim girl whose head scarf was yanked by an 11-year-old punk told Thursday how fellow students on Staten Island terrorized and beat her.

"They just attacked me," she said outside her home in a hushed voice. "They called me 'terrorist.' They called me 'Muslim.' I'm afraid they might come back and beat me again.

The girl said she was on her way to pick up her younger brother at a nearby school when the bullies jumped her.

"They kicked and punched me," she said.

"I said, 'Leave me alone.' And he said, 'I won't.' He tried to pull off [my head] scarf, but I grabbed it and it didn't come off."

Anonymous said...


That's sick. Islamaphobes teaching their children to hate.

Radical Moderate said...

You mean another Hate Crime like this one.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations has called for the feds to open a hate-crime investigation after a Muslim cab driver said a cigar store owner in concert with three other men assaulted him in front of the store, promising they were "going to f—you up like we f— up your country" as they pummeled him.

Wednesday afternoon found me at his shop puffing on a fine Partagas Serie D, along with Uria's attorney, Victor Cueto. Uria did almost all the talking, telling a story that makes more sense than the one told by the beating victim to CAIR and the police. It goes:

Late on March 19, two women who had been in Uria's cigar lounge called for a cab. One arrived outside, steps away from the front door. Unbeknownst to them, it was not from the cab company they'd called. But they got into it anyway and were about to leave when the cab they did call pulled up.

The second cabbie, a middle-aged Arabic man, hopped out and started yelling at the first cabbie, a Hispanic man, for taking his fare. Uria heard the commotion and stepped outside. He heard the Arabic cabbie call the Hispanic cabbie a "f—ing wetback." The Hispanic cabbie drove away.

At that very moment, three men who had apparently come from a bar around the corner, ran up looking for a cab. One of the three, a Hispanic man, had heard the Arabic cabbie's slur, and said to him, 'What the f—did you say?" The cabbie and Hispanic man started cursing at each other. As the cabbie tried to leave, he brushed his arm against the Hispanic man, who punched him in the face.

As Uria yelled to his patrons inside to call the cops, the two men with the Hispanic man joined in and started beating the cabbie. Uria and one of his patrons, Greg Parker, jumped into the melee and pulled off the attackers, who fled. The cops arrived moments later.

As the cabbie and Uria were talking to separate officers, Uria heard the cabbie say, "That's him!" pointing at Uria.

Another Islamaphobe Hate Crime Fizzles.

Anonymous said...

as muslims we're told to spread the spriritual aspects about islam.

But you cant because your faith is based on works. Thats why Muhammad had to say, "many miraculous proofs."

Did you make hajj yet, Ali?

Ali said...


go hide in a closet k? when we need you we'll call.

and no i have not but soon inshallah i will, and maybe even radical will also (if the Lord will's)

sam1528 said...

I cannot resist posting this one. Most would have seen it and had a good laugh.

muslamic ray gun
muslamic ray gun (original)

muslamic ray gun (remix)
muslamic ray gun (remix)

Be very afraid. We musims have 'muslamic ray guns'.

Radical Moderate said...

How to make a Islamic Omelet

1. Take news of some nut job burning a Quran in Florida USA

2. Add a few thousand Muslims in a relatively peaceful city in Afghanistan

3. Place Muslims and news of the Quran burning that happened thousands of miles away in a Mosque at Friday Prayers

4. Whip Muslims up into a frenzy during Friday Prayer service.

5. Mix all this together, and sprinkle in some chants of Death to America, and Death to Israel to taste.

6. Shake until done.

Your finish product will look something like this.

Seven UN workers killed, a few of them beheaded, UN compound burned.

Ummm a TASTE TREAT. Finger licking good.

"Two of the dead were beheaded by attackers who also burned parts of the compound and climbed up blast walls to topple a guard tower, said Lal Mohammad Ahmadzai, a police spokesman for the northern region.
It is believed to be the deadliest ever attack on the UN in Afghanistan.
Over a thousand protesters had flooded into the streets of the normally peaceful city after Friday prayers to denounce the burning of Islam's holy book, the Koran, by a US pastor, and after two or three hours violence broke out."

See For Directions and Ingredient list

Ali said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ali said...

tell me radical how come there is no violence in saudi, UAE, qatar, maldves, malaysia, or iran? because they're well educated people on islam.
afghanistan has a 25% literacy rate, and what they called a literate person is the same in pakistan. anyone with 2 or more years of education.

radical's argument is once again NEGATED.

Abdul said...

RadicalMathemagician -

Why don't you answer sam1528 or challenge his position on the Israelite population figures?

You seem to have lost your nerve somewhat - why?


Nice article Yahya - top stuff

Radical Moderate said...


you said...
"Why don't you answer sam1528 or challenge his position on the Israelite population figures?

You seem to have lost your nerve somewhat - why?"

In case you haven't noticed Sam1528 has a sever reading comprehension problem. I'm not joking or being mean he really does. You remember when I posted that link, and I said it was a test. Well thats no joke i did the same to him a few times to see if he would catch it. And he never ever did. LOL.

Also he copied and pasted something I typed that was clear as night and day and then responded as if I had said the opposite of what I had written.

I gave a long exojeet of Revelation, which i enjoyed doing. But did he read it? Of coarse not.

So no I am no longer responding to anything that Sam1528 says.

Now you on the other hand I had a pleasant exchange, you proved that you do read what is written and do respond to it. That is a credit to you.

sam1528 said...

radical moderate ,

You don't want to respond because you don't have any counter argument. As simple as that.

The book of revelation? Even your fellow in christ , commented that its not relevant to the argument.

You have been exposed fiddling with numbers to make the biblical account of exodus 'real'. Suddenly you are muted .... too bad

Radical Moderate said...


You said...
"Even your fellow in christ , commented that its not relevant to the argument."

Like I said reading comprehension problem. LOL

Anonymous said...

radical you're right we all have reading problems, because your spelling mistakes makes it harder for us to respond

Abdul said...

RadicalModerate -

I must admit that I enjoyed our bit of banter too Rad :)

Perhaps we can (all) try and make our exchanges here on this blog pleasant and friendly in the future.

I know that we may disagree at times over certain issues, but as people of God we should try and build bridges to peace. We must all try to be fair and just to one another.

"For each [religious following] is a direction toward which it faces. So race to [all that is] good" (Qur'an 2:148)

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)

If we keep these verses in mind whilst debating we cannot go far wrong :)

Yahya Snow said...


Let me get this straight, are you saying that you put your dodgy maths on show to "test" folk?


Just apologize for the error and move on and look into the issue further.

Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another.

Radical Moderate said...

@Ali, Ali, Ali. Part 1

I'm surprised you showed your nick around here, after you outed yourself and others who blashpemed and insult the holy spirit as not "TRUE MUSLIMS"

Your said...

"tell me radical how come there is no violence in saudi, UAE, qatar, maldves, malaysia, or iran?"

Your joking right.

Lets see KSA
1979 number of militants took over the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca

1998 four Shi'ite men are beheaded for blowing up fuel storage tanks[2] at the Saudi Petrochemical Company (SADAF) facility in Jubail.

1995 a car bomb killed five US citizens and two Indians at the offices of the Saudi National Guard in Riyadh.

1996 the Khobar Towers apartment complex in Khobar, near Dhahran, is hit by a large truck bomb. Nineteen US soldiers are killed and 372 wounded by the blast.

2003 was a busy year. 35 are killed and over 200 wounded during a suicide attack on the Vinnell Compound in Riyadh. There is a rumor that National Guard collusion was involved;

31 May 2 police officers and a militant are killed.
14 June Security forces raided a building in the Khalidiya neighborhood of Makkah. Two Saudi police officers and five suspects were killed in a shootout. Twelve suspects were arrested including two from Chad and one Egyptian.[4][5]
28 July 6 militants — four Saudis and two Chadians — and two police officers were killed in a police raid on a farm outside of Al-Qasim. The four Saudis were identified as Ahmad Al-Dakheel, Kareem Olayyan Al-Ramthan Al-Harbi, Saud Aamir Suleiman Al-Qurashi, and Muhammad Ghazi Saleem Al-Harbi. The Chadians were Isa Kamal Yousuf Khater and Isa Saleh Ali Ahmed. Another Saudi wanted person, identified as Ibrahim ibn Abdullah Khalaf Al-Harbi, was arrested after he being injured.[6]
23 September 3 militants and a police officer are killed in a gunfight at a Riyadh hospital.
20 October Police raid hideout in Riyadh and capture a large supply of weapons.
3 November Police surround militant hideout in Riyadh and kill two.
6 November 2 militants surrounded by the police in Riyadh blow themselves up.
8 November A truck bomb explodes at an Arab housing compound in Riyadh, killing 17 and injuring 120.
8 December an unnamed militant is killed at a Riyadh gas station.

Radical Moderate said...

@Ali Ali Ali Part 2

2004 Another busy year for Muslim in the land of your god and Prophet. Wow really busy going to have to break this up.

19 January Shootout in Al-Nassim District (Riyadh)
29 January One unnamed gunman captured and five police officers killed in a shootout in the Al-Nassim District of Riyadh.
April United States Embassy issues a travel advisory for the kingdom and urges all US citizens to leave.
5 April An unnamed militant is reported killed in a car chase in Riyadh.
12 April A police officer and one militant are killed in a shootout in Riyadh. Rakan ibn Moshen Al-Seikhan and Nasser ibn Rashid Al-Rashid are wounded and escaped. Both are reported dead on 4 July.
13 April 4 police officers are killed in two attacks by militants. Several car bombs are found and defused.
15 April The United States orders all governmental dependents and nonessential personnel out of the kingdom as a security measure.
21 April A suicide bomber detonates a car bomb in Riyadh at the gates of a building used as the headquarters of the traffic police and emergency services. Five people die and 148 are injured.
22 April 3 unnamed militants are killed by police in Jeddah in an incident in the Al-Fayha district.
1 May (See: Black Saturday (2004)) Seven people (two US citizens, two Britons, an Australian, a Canadian, and a Saudi) are killed in a rampage at the premises of a petroleum company in Yanbu by three brothers. All the attackers, dressed in military uniforms, are killed.
22 May German chef Hermann Dengl is shot and killed at a Jarir Bookstore in Riyadh.
29 May (See: 29 May 2004 Al-Khobar massacres) 22 are killed during an attack on the Oasis Compound in Al-Khobar. After a siege the gunmen escape. 19 of those killed are foreigners.
6 June Simon Cumbers, an Irish cameraman for the BBC, is killed and the reporter Frank Gardner very severely wounded by gunshots to his head in Riyadh.
8 June Robert Jacobs, a US citizen working for Vinnel Corp., is killed at his villa in Riyadh.
13 June One US expatriate Kenneth Scroggs is killed and another Paul Johnson working for Lockheed Martin is kidnapped at a fake police checkpoint in Riyadh. A car bomb is also discovered on this date.
18 June US citizen Paul Johnson is beheaded in Riyadh. His body is found some time later. A few hours later security services kill five militants (Abdul Aziz Al-Muqrin, Turki Al-Muteri, Ibahim Al-Durayhim and two others). A dozen are reported captured.
23 June Saudi government offers a thirty-day limited amnesty to "terrorists".
1 July Abdullah ibn Ahmed Al-Rashoud is killed in shootout east of the capital. Bandar Al-Dakheel escapes. Two policemen (Bandar Al-Qahtani and Humoud Abdullah Al-Harbi) are killed.

Radical Moderate said...

@Ali Ali Ali
2004 KSA Part 2b

4 July The bodies of Moshen Al-Seikhan and Nasser ibn Rashid Al-Rashid are discovered. One had had his leg crudely amputated. Both seem to have been wounded in fights with the security services and died later.
13 July Khaled al-Harbi, who is listed on the government's most-wanted list, surrenders in Iran, is flown to Saudi Arabia.
14 July Ibrahim al-Harb surrenders himself in Syria.
20 July Shootout in Riyadh. Eisa ibn Saad Al-Awshan (number 13 on the list of the 26 most-wanted militants) is killed. Saleh al-Oufi (#4), the head of Al Qaeda in the kingdom escapes from the raid on the compound where he had been living with his extended family.
23 July Amnesty offer expires. Six wanted people had turned themselves in.
4 August Tony Christopher, an Irish expatriate, is shot and killed at his desk in Riyadh.
5 August Faris Ahmed Jamaan al-Showeel al-Zahrani (#11 on the government's list of most-wanted) is captured in Abha without a fight.
30 August An unnamed US government employee is shot at while leaving a bank in Jeddah. No injuries.
11 September Two small bombs go off in Jeddah near the Saudi British and Saudi American Banks. Nobody is injured.
15 September Edward Smith, a British expatriate working for Marconi, is shot dead at a supermarket in Riyadh. No arrests are made.
26 September Laurent Barbot, a French employee of a defense electronics firm, is shot dead in his car in Jeddah. Five Chadians confessed to the crime in June 2005.
4 November Unnamed ‘deviant’ is arrested in a shoot-out at an Internet cafĂ© in Buraidah, Qasim region. Two policemen are injured.
9 November Shootout in Jeddah. On Al-Amal Al-Saleh Street, police capture four unnamed militants and seize eight AKs and hundreds of locally-made bombs. No deaths are reported.
10 November Government announces the interception of 44,000 rounds of ammunition being smuggled in from Yemen. One Saudi waiting for the shipment is arrested.
13 November Five unnamed militants arrested in Riyadh and Zulfi. A number of machine guns and other weapons are captured. Nobody is hurt in the gunfight.
17 November A police officer (Private Fahd Al-Olayan) is killed and eight are injured in a shootout in Unayzah, Qassim. Five persons of interest are detained. Computers, pipe bombs and SR38,000 are seized.
6 December Five employees are killed (a Yemeni, a Sudanese, a Filipino, a Pakistani and a Sri Lankan) as five militants invade the US Consulate in Jeddah. No US citizens are killed.
16 December A call for kingdom-wide anti-government demonstrations by a London-based group fails.
29 December Two suicide car bombs explode in Riyadh. One outside the Interior Ministry Complex, the other near the Special Emergency Force training center. A passerby is killed and some people are wounded. In a resulting gun battle, seven suspected militants are killed. Two (Sultan Al-Otabi and Faisal Al-Dakheel) were on the Kingdom’s list of 26 Most Wanted.

Radical Moderate said...

@Ali Ali Ali

There are so many in KSA that I'm going to give up and just post the wiki Link you can see it for yourself.


As far as IRAN, I have one name for you Neda. Also KSA and Iran are second only to China in the number of Executions. They even beat out TEXAS lol.

Malaysia Churches attacked and firebombed.


Well I can go on about UAE and Quater, but I'm already bored by this.

As far as the Maldavi's its owned by Marriott I believe and it's a resort Island Nation.

But anyway I believe I made my point.

Radical Moderate said...

@Ali Ali Ali

There are so many in KSA that I'm going to give up and just post the wiki Link you can see it for yourself.


As far as IRAN, I have one name for you Neda. Also KSA and Iran are second only to China in the number of Executions. They even beat out TEXAS lol.

Malaysia Churches attacked and firebombed.


Well I can go on about UAE and Quater, but I'm already bored by this.

As far as the Maldavi's its owned by Marriott I believe and it's a resort Island Nation.

But anyway I believe I made my point.

Ali said...

radical you once again prove your reading comprehension skills.
I was talking about violence in relation to TERRY JONES and his quran burning.

you cant find anything related to violence in general in the UAE and Qatar and thats why you didn't post anything on them.

can you say MAJOR fail?

Ali said...

i also want your opinion on the ivory coast massacre of muslims by christians thats happening right now.

Abdul said...

RadicalModerate -

Care to comment?

Anonymous said...

Bart Ehrman writes in the conclusion of the book, "Jesus, Interrupted" :

"Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus and Heaven and Hell are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said. At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries"