DCCI Ministries, CJ Davis, Islamophobia, Low Level Evangelical Polemics and the Bible

This was quite a revealing dialogue due to some good questions being asked although I was extremely disappointed that there was no continuation of the Numbers 31 dialogue – Lizzie Schofied (a church member under CJ Davis’ authority at St Nicholas Church, Tooting) promised she would look into why her Church (the Protestant church on the whole) believes Midianite women and children were killed. CJ Davis, has no immediate plans to address this in public as far as I’m aware. Folks are STILL waiting for an answer


Pathway to Mercy channel

It starts off with Hashim standing his ground (rightly and commendably so!) fending off a suggestion that a 2-2 minute format should be operated. The explanation for this format here is a worry that Lizzie won't get a word in. I don't get this at all. Hashim's asking questions a good number of his co-religionists will have of Trinitarian Church beliefs and scriptures. You'd think somebody who seriously believes they are an "evangelist" and wants to do the Church's bidding would be up for this. Not Lizzie!

Remember he's asking questions of a Church representative who is meant to believe she's got the Holy Spirit (which the Trinitarian church believes to be God) in-dwelling her and she is taught by an anonymous New Testament author (whom the Church believes was inspired by the same Spirit) to be ready to give an answer:

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect [1 Peter 3:15]

Isn't her job, according to the Church, then, to just sit back, elicit the questions and answer them? Instead, based on her track record, she seems to be led by the spirit of Islamophobia and the spirit of the age (Western culturalism) where she seeks out opportunities to bash the Muslim's religion and in the process bashes the wider Muslim community in the form of stereotyping and propaganda. There’s a sizeable overlap with the Far Right and Lizzie’s “Christian” companions when talking about Islam – something which needs to be reflected and discussed more.

If a Christianophobe was to do the same he’d be linking the Bible’s relatively low age of consent (age puberty) with the Church child grooming scandals which are in the news far and wide. The Christianophobe counterpart to Lizzie Schofield may also link the biblical orders believed, by the Church (presumably by St Nicholas Church too), to be from the person of Jesus to kill children and women as a reason why so many child abuse scandals are hitting CJ Davis’ Church of England; these people see Jesus as their role model and they believe Jesus did not care about the children in 1 Samuel 15, Numbers 31, Joshua thus they abuse children because their role model did not care about them in their minds. Likewise for why they never protest against wars and bombings of Middle Eastern and other Muslim countries where countless children are killed as collateral damage during (“Christian”) military action, in the accompanying economic warfare prior to “Christian” military action and in the maelstrom of power struggles (including economic shock therapies – re Naomi Klein) in the aftermath of “Christian” bombings and invasions.

Sermons promoting anti war protests?

I’d personally love to know if CJ Davis has ever, ever, done a sermon criticising our government or an American administration for their decisions to opt for bombs and wars in an effort to move his congregation to be politically active in campaigning against wars and ultimately attempting to save the lives of young foreign children. Alas, St Nicholas Church are hiding his archived sermons now so there’s no way of telling whether he had the moral aptitude and fortitude to speak out or whether he just continually persists with sermons which make the hyper-individualist “Christian” feel good for the day (and donate for the current church building maintenance drive). I get the feeling this is your average Cof E sermon, a reverend who is out of touch just churning out sermons which sing to the whims of the congregation in this climate of hyper-individualism, does Jeremiah 5 come to mind a little?

The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. [Jeremiah 5]

But hey, the counterpart to Lizzie, may just say CJ Davis’ role model is the Trinitarian Church version of Jesus - a person who is believed to have ordered to the killing of non virgin women (wives/mothers) [1 Samuel 15] – therefore they expect CJ Davis not to ever speak out and be genuinely active in trying to help those poor women and kids who are the victims of Western (“Christian”) imperial campaigns.

Perhaps that Christianophobe is out there: Islamophobia breeds Christianophobia and vice versa. People who are representing mosques or churches should recognise this and be guarded and responsible in what they say. Judging from the behaviour and comments coming from Elizabeth Schofield and her colleagues, I’d reckon St Nicholas Church members are not being taught this – that is a failing on CJ Davis’ part. When’s he due to retire...

Muslims need to wisen up to the dichotomy within evangelicalism

That was quite a tangent! Where was I? Ah yeah, I was rambling on about the Christian lady not answering questions. Come on, answer the questions the bloke has. If you don't know how the Church wants you to answer why are you even there? Hop over to Oxford Street and splash some cash - charge it to Rob Schofield's credit card if he lets you! Enjoy your day out. And whilst we are at it, why aren’t CJ Davis and Robert Schofield there? They represent a local church, Robert is a preacher and CJ is a member of the clergy nearing retirement. I assume they know more about Trinitarian church beliefs than Elizabeth given that they are allowed to (frigidly) preach at St Nicholas Church and she’s not.

Come on, let’s start seeing serious church guys having conversation with Muslims. The Christians bring polite and educated (some are very accomplished academically I must say) folks to talk to Atheists yet when it’s a case of talking to Muslims they send out rabble-rouser types. You know the sort when you hear them a number of descriptive words come into mind: unsophisticated, unhinged unwashed, uncaring, uninformed, uncoordinated, uneducated, uncouth and ultimately easily undone! Just think about the number of obnoxious types on the internet where you just go away and think “what a moron” after reading or listening to their “evangelical” efforts.

Of course, there’s a reason for this. And Muslims need to smarten up to this, it will hurt one’s pride but this is true. The Christians subconsciously see the Atheists and other secularists as their intellectual and cultural superiors as well as being of their own kin and kith; when they see the LGBTQi peeps, uber secular humanists or New Age Atheists they see their family, their role models, their celebrities, their teachers (possibly their church leaders given some of them are secret Atheists too!), their cultural icons and their own culture. That’s an internal and in-house thing for them. When they see some Muslim at Speakers Corner (or wherever) preaching Islam, they see Johnny foreigner. A foreign culture. Subconscious xenophobia kicks in and they leave the uncooked types in the Church to dialogue with Muslims, why should a smart and classy gentleman be resourced on talking to a bunch of Muslims when the metaphorical red-carpet can be rolled out for what the Reformation ultimately helped to spawn as the evolved cultural specimen of the age, the secular humanist?

Xenophobia?

I suspect there is a latent sense of xenophobia in the reason why there is such a gulf in class between the two sets of “evangelists”. If you can’t see this just look at the Christian evangelists and apologists advocating Theism and compare them to those who are concentrated on trying to bring Muslims into the Trinitarian Church. And I don’t mean take Speakers’ Corner Christians as an example as I think it’s pretty well observed that Christians turn up there half-way normal and become buffoonish in many cases for a few hours before going home to act half-way normal again for the rest of the week – that’s sadly rinsed and repeated for the rest of the year. Take Speakers Corner out of the equation, you’ll still notice what I’m getting at.

We haven’t even got into any apologetics yet. This is going to be a toil. Moving on whilst having some more prune juice...

"The Bible is infallible because of the Quran" - Elizabeth Schofield

I want to post more on this type of cognitive laziness and let's be frank, evangelical intellectual obscurantism. She got cut off, rightly so, but it seemed like she was scraping the barrel of low level evangelical slogans with this. Sad.

St Nicholas Church’s Lizzie Schofield has form for spiel like this, did she not try this type of stunt before with 1 Samuel 15:3? She was telling the SAME speaker (Hashim) not to criticise the order to kill women and children (believed by her Trinitarian Church to be from the person of Jesus!) given tin 1 Samuel 15 because it's confirmed in the Quran. It turned out it was not confirmed in the Quran thus whoever gave her that line was making her seem dishonest. Or maybe she just made it up, if so, CJ Davis what are you teaching your congregation in Tooting?

The New Testament is not the Injeel - this is a crucial distinction which is ignored/missed by evangelicals to promote what is ultimately their intellectually dishonest sloganeering.

Muslims need to be firm, clear and polite in making these points. Churches need to be honest in listening to Muslims and finding out what they believe about the NT rather than thinking some  missionary pamphlet is trusty.

The NT was never seen nor sanctioned by Jesus. Islam confirms a Message which was given to [emphasising to] Jesus. The Church "gospels" are written by anonymous people without any authority about Jesus which a church (a bunch of anonymous and unauthorised people again) declared to be "inspired".

Let's see folks stop playing dumb here as clearly Islam contradicts aspects of the Church's teachings. What are you saying, the Quran wholly confirms the Church's books but contradicts the Church's teachings? A simple example here would be that of the deifying of a Prophet, Jesus. The Church believes its books and its creeds teach this. Islam rejects this idea. Likewise with the idea of Jesus being murdered for the sins of mankind, the Church believes this is something their New Testament teaches yet Muslims don’t believe this idea. Do you still want to say Islam confirms the New Testament?

Think about what you’re saying, just because some ropey missionary said it before you for decades does not mean it’s true. Christian missionaries say all sorts of stuff, not all of it’s true.

Muslims believe Scripture was given to Abraham - the Quran teaches this. If the Church or any other organisation turns up with texts written in the name of, about or purported to be from Abraham, does that mean Islam confirms these texts? Nope.

We’ve got to encourage better thought!

As far as I can see, Hashim and those who follow his SC dialogues online are too smart to fall for that. And Lizzie should be switched on enough to know how shallow and offensive to the intellect these scrape-the-bottom-of-the-barrel evangelical slogans look. It goes back to what I was saying about the way the non theists are treated; the Church brings out sophisticated people who proffer sophisticated arguments but it’s anything goes when it comes to Muslims (including hypocrisy, misinformation, out-right lies, decontextualised narratives, xenophobia, racist arguments, logical fallacies, strawmen, made up stories or miracles and healings which always take place when the camera is never around, parlour tricks like leg lengthening passed off as miracles, quote mining etc,.). In fact the Church, along with slogans, rolls out the blankets and promises of help with asylum applications to entice Muslim refugees to sign on the dotted line. A number, desperate and broken through poverty and war, do decide to temporarily pretend to become Christians for the Church goodies and support.

He's not interested in the Church

I’m not watching a video of a Christian manipulating a refugee (all that is done behind closed doors) but I’m watching a video of an evangelist representing the Church talking to a Muslim who is clearly not going to be swayed by promises of blankets, cash, asylum or low level evangelical slogans. How many guys like Hashim has the Church got to sign on the dotted line? You can tell this man will never become a Christian and you can tell Lizzie knows this, she’s not even trying to convince him to follow her to St Nicholas Church and get baptised...she’s not even trying to communicate the Church “gospel” with him. He knows too much about the Bible, the Trinity belief and the Church doctrines. Having said that, if there’s never been an attempt by a Christian, to sit him down and try and answer his questions and communicate the Church message to him, you would have to ask why are DCCI Ministries and these other Church characters you see in SC videos ,who have become somewhat cartoonish, aren’t trying to spend time and “save his soul” according to their Church’s ideas. Do they not care about his soul? You’d think these characters would all be rushing off to their respective local churches and calling on their elders to rush down there and try and save the soul of Hashim.

Perhaps they did but their church leaders were preoccupied on the church roof. Building maintenance, the primary concern of all local churches!

For those who want to see a good in-depth break-down of this argument see
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/response_to_james_white_on_surah_5__ayah_47

Lizzie Schofield: "It's a translational thing" - the reason why the Catholics have more books in their Bible

Nope, Elizabeth. Not according to the Catholics.

CJ Davis, what are you teaching your church mate?

Lizzie Schofield: "It's not a big deal" that other churches have different books in their Bible

Nope Elizabeth.

Not according to St Nicholas Church in Tooting and all those members of the CofE following the Thirty Nine Articles over the centuries as the list of books was deemed important enough to list in the Articles. It's clearly a big deal - especially if you believe Archbishop Cranmer and CofE members over the centuries were indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

What are you saying here Lizzie, it was important for the Holy Spirit to make prominent in the minds of "Christians" centuries ago but nowadays the Holy Spirit does not consider it as important?

And don't you think the spirit inside you wants you to believe it's important which words are attributed to God and which words aren't? When you’ve imbibed the spirit of the age and decided to peddle in islamophobia rather than your Church tradition and Bible you probably don’t think about these points

CJ Davis, care to comment?

Elizabeth Schofield: The differences between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles don't matter because they teach the same thing

Well, if they teach the same thing then why does Robert Schofield, who left the Catholic Church to join the church of Martin Luther and the Puritans, subscribe to the Protestant Bible? And why would he leave Catholicism for Protestantism if it's all the same thing?

Oh, you're saying the overall message in the two faiths are the same? Well, in that case, isn't there an argument for the overall message between Unitarians and the Trinitarian Church being the same? Or the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses have a similar overall message to St Nicholas Church? CJ Davis, are you going to allow Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Socinians in your church to preach? Let me know if you are planning to as you’re on the road to letting Muslims lead prayers there.

[As for this by-line that the overall message is the same, of course it's going to be as Luther and company did not radically split from the older church of Rome and make their own religion up.
If say you, Lizzie Schofield, decide to reject the Old Testament and reject the Church theology of the Trinity because you don’t like believing in a Trinitarian Church Version Jesus who is the source of Exodus 21:20-21 or 1 Samuel 15 and 2 Samuel 12

Do you think your church would be OK with you to remain as a member and would the clergy there say you believe the same thing as them?

CJ Davis, would you kick her out of your church if she did this (forget about the amount of cash she may or may not pump into the church coffers)? And don’t give me that nonsense of we don’t kick people out, your Church articles teach ex-communication.

The Bible is reliable enough for the basic message of the Church to be ascertained?

Erm, this oh it's reliable enough (meaning that it's not inerrant) actually contradicts the Bible as it's taught to be flawless perfect (discussed later)

CJ, come on mate, I think you really need to stop these people going to parks and mosques; you need to start entering serious discussions on these matters. When I say serious discussions, I don’t mean masking what you're teaching by hiding your sermons, I mean by inviting to the church people who can conduct clear-minded and informed dialogue to help edify your congregations with respect to what the Bible actually is, its history and the history of doctrines such as the 4th century doctrine of the Trinity. Can we move away from slogans, empty rhetoric and move towards having Muslim folks invited to St Nicholas Church to lovingly discuss these talking points with the church members in a spirit of friendship rather than this adversarial hype Lizzie and the other “robust” “Christians” are on? It can be done without the shouting and the immaturity which Dr James R White (church elder at Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church) has rebuked your church member on. There are Muslims willing to lovingly dialogue with you at St Nicholas Church on any given Sunday. You used to do the hot potato sermons, why not make this proposed interfaith discussion (not scream-fest) a regular thing for a Sunday at your church – perhaps bi-monthly? You’ll have to find a sophisticated and learned Muslim (learned in Islam and Christianity) as your dialogue partner, but that should not be a problem as there are plenty out there. Here’s an idea, to get your program running why don’t you invite the chap Liz was talking to, Hashim, he’s clearly got a load of questions which are going unanswered?


~ 26 The Bible is inspired by God – Lizzie Schofield

Where's Lizzie getting this idea from? The Church! The same Church that invented from whole-cloth the Trinity Doctrine. The same Church which was unsure about certain books. The same Church which basically chose, without any authority whatsoever what is to be considered inspired scripture and ended up with four, yes four (4), gospels. It even debated the book of Revelation, as mentioned elsewhere in the video by the Muslim who does not look remotely interested signing up for the Church, Hashim

Why is Lizzie even taking this fallible organisation as an authority?

If a bunch of church-men got together now and declared the Epistle of Barnabas is canon would she accept it? If not then why not as the church-men of today have as much authority as those involved in the long, protracted canonisation process.

Heretics, barbarians and rancour in the heart

I'd bet many, if not all of them, would have considered Lizzie to be a heretic or a pagan (I waggishly ask, would they have called her a barbarian? Oooh the irony considering evangelical “Christian” propaganda which paints Muslims as barbarians!) 

Seriously, Lizzie Schofield, forget about all the banter and the personal animosity (plus pride). You must KNOW deep down that this questioning is subsumed on good points. Will you consider the questions faithfully or will you cling on to your Church’s tradition because it's a Muslim or a critic saying it and you've felt your pride dented by such people responding to you?

And on that note, let's just remember these authors did not believe the words they were writing were "inspired". An obvious example would be the fact that none of them claim such and the gospel authors Luke and Matthew clearly did not believe Mark was "inspired" otherwise they would not have wrote their own based on his work...they would have simply copied his accurately and distributed it if they truly believed his text was "inspired". Likewise for the recipients of Paul's letters, how could they believe his letters were "inspired" if they did not even bother to preserve them - his letter to Laodicea is lost (and who knows which other letters and his current letters are thought to be edited versions).

Again, Lizzie, these are good points worthy of a good deal of mulling over - something which can only be considered by putting pride and rancour for the group, person making said points aside.

I used to watch a fair bit of Speakers Corner stuff and as far as a I would speculate, the Christians (including you) are less likely to take anything on board from their Muslim interlocutors simply because of the cameras, rancour in the heart (basically dislike for that individual Muslim) and pride.

27 Lizzie is Uneasy about inerrancy

“Credibility and inerrancy are two different things”

Not for a Book which you claim is inspired by God. Yep for a newspaper or news station. The BBC is reliable (credible) on the whole but it's not inerrant.

The Bible can't be mostly reliable or credible if you believe it's inspired by God - it's got to be flawless. In fact, that is what the Hebrew Bible teaches about itself according to Christians at Got Questions:

The doctrine of biblical inerrancy is an extremely important one because the truth does matter. This issue reflects on the character of God and is foundational to our understanding of everything the Bible teaches. Here are some reasons why we should absolutely believe in biblical inerrancy:

1. The Bible itself claims to be perfect. “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6). “The law of the Lord is perfect” (Psalm 19:7). “Every word of God is pure” (Proverbs 30:5 KJV). These claims of purity and perfection are absolute statements. Note that it doesn’t say God’s Word is “mostly” pure or scripture is “nearly” perfect. The Bible argues for complete perfection, leaving no room for “partial perfection” theories.

The odd thing here is that Lizzie’s St Nicholas Church believes inerrancy is important, it's one of the doctrines they officially hold to. Why the reticence to sign on the dotted line, Lizzie? She seemingly believes there are minor contradictions in the Bible.

CJ Davis, do you care about any of this or are you just hanging on until retirement day (CofE pension) going through the motions as a preacher preaching what you think the congregation want you to say to make them feel good about themselves (meeting the needs of hyper-individualism in the church)?

"we've got thousands of manuscripts"..."so much mansucript evidence" – Lizzie Schofield

I'm disappointed because I know this lady is simply repeating lazy apologetics dished down by people who should know better.

These manuscripts are largely from the Middle Ages so the number of manuscripts is irrelevant. It's like me pitching up and claiming we know Shakespeare is reliable because we've got a ton of copies printed from the 1960s in bookstores and libraries across the UK. The smart person will just dismiss this because these copies, centuries later, have no categorical say on whether what we have written now is what Shakespeare originally wrote.

The fact is, there's no way to tell if the Church have copied correctly what the original authors of the NT wrote - there were dishonest scribes and there were sloppy scribes so we don’t know whether they added bits or omitted bits

28 Mark took dictation from Peter – Lizzie Schofield

This is just not true. It's not true.
Mark was probably written after Peter passed away. And that may be one of the reasons why they attributed it to Mark.

Does accuracy and truth not matter?

Look, you've got somebody who the Church wants us to believe is filled with the Holy Spirit and is being sanctified by the Holy Spirit yet this person is a constant source of misinformation – she does not come back and publicly correct herself as far as I’m aware either.

Sadly this is a constant theme amongst Christians who just imbibe what they are told and want to believe it because they want to hold on to their Church beliefs

CJ Davis or whoever is handing this material down really needs to be ashamed. YOU are making this poor lady look dishonest/recklessly ignorant. Does truth/accuracy not matter to you? You send her a bunch of untrue talking points on a regular basis melted into her low level and shallow polemics and apologetics. People aren't half-wits and they will see what’s being said is plainly untrue...well most people!

Why don’t you (whoever is misinforming her) turn up and read the crib sheets yourself, why have poor Lizzie do your bidding as a volunteer? I truly feel sorry for her as I know this is a regular theme - a young lady involved in the church who was in David Wood's group left faith (perhaps partly because of my responses which were essentially a watered down version of my responses to Lizzie) and contacted me. I guarantee you, young people (maybe Lizzie too) will leave the Church or have serious doubts if they follow the sound responses/rebukes in videos (either live encounters with smart and switched on folk or the edited variety) and blogs.


Lizzie may carry on subscribing to the Church because of the support services the local church offers and maybe because of all the cash she's pumped into it via donations over the years but younger people making their way into the world aren't as interested in coffee groups, crèches, clubs, social events, connect groups etc.. This is especially true for younger blokes given the atmosphere of emasculation in churches nowadays, young blokes who already have a support group of friends and social life won’t feel they need that crux of the local church. Of course you’ll always get people moving to new cities and jumping on Alpha Courses but that again is more female oriented and is more about emotions and feelings (smells and bells) rather than serious investigation of Church traditions. There's less lure and appeal for the average bloke, especially working class blokes. I guarantee you if there are young people following DCCI Ministries “work” at Speakers Corner and online they are doubting and/or leaving the faith as they can see what everybody else can see. There are more holes in the explanations and arguments advocated by Lizzie and her church colleagues than the Titanic.


"The fact we've got 4 different gospels not one"

This is yarn is all about turning negatives into positives. Lazy evangelists do this a lot.
The fact the Church chose 4 gospels probably means they simply turned into a super church by grafting in various groups of a similar theology, exorcising their "gospel" may have caused a kerfuffle so the easier thing to do was to just include them all as there was a great deal of overlap between them (I’m open to other theories but this theory makes sense to me). Even though two of them were copying from Mark, hardly different converging lines of evidence.

If I and another blogger reported on some fraud in the church (let's say some dude caught with his hand in the church charity box) and we copy from a church news source and make edits, is that three different converging lines of evidence or is it one report which was re-used?

Ditto re the Gospels!

More dishonesty about Islam from DCCI Ministries' teachers

Lizzie of St Nicholas Church and DCCI on Salvery

Advice to Muslims in responding to St Nicholas Church members and Christian Islamophobes

St Nicholas Church Member and the "sex slaves" claim debate analysed

ABNSAT Challenged: The Jesus and Muhammad Show (IslamDunkTV)

The misinformation on ABNSat's "Jesus or Muhammad" show is outrageous. Their staple diet is one of demonising Muslims, the Prophet (p) and Islam.

ABNSat? Enough already..

This Spring sees the propaganda of David Wood and Sam Shamoun (yes, they are the sex hoax purveyors) challenged - inshaallah.

Jibreelk and Sheikh Essam Tawfik will present clarity and genuine insight by the Will of Allah.

The Jesus and Muhammad Show Teaser Trailer



I will be frank, I have grown weary of tackling the distortions, fabrications and spin of Dave and Sam. What the folk at ABN do with these "Jesus or Muhammad marathons" is not evangelism - it's mud slinging.

Debates and Sam Shamoun tapping out

No doubt Sam Shamoun will see this as an opportunity to issue a few debate challenges to the Sheikh/Jibreelk in an attempt at obfuscation and ego-massaging.

Debates are not the best medium to convey your points - especially points of refutation. It is best to humbly and sincerely present your information so there is a bank of knowledge for the truth-seeker to browse through. I'm pretty sure IslamDunkTV will opt for the more beneficial mode of disseminating the Truth.

In any case, I can't imagine Jibreelk will bother with such misdirections as he has already debated Sam Shamoun - Sam Shamoun tapped out (yes good 'ol WWE style). I'm not kidding, Sam really did throw in the towel (as well as a few insults)!!!

A quick word on Sam and David

Firstly, let me illustrate how fragile and defensive Wood is. Recently, he had the audacity to link to one of my blog pages - he soon removed the link as I jazzed the page up with a link to one of his outlandish lies (the video in which he was claiming the Quran instructs the torture/killing/amputating of cross-wearing Christians!). He soon removed the link - I guess he's semsitive when it comes to his fans realising he purveys scandalous lies.

As for Sam Shamoun, last I checked on that fella, he was STILL calling people "dogs".

Bassim Gorial must be wondering as to the feeble calibre of his employees; no backbone, no scholarship, no integrity and no class.

A word on Jibreelk and IslamDunkTV

You know, making videos and writing articles takes time - specifically his time. Even this short promo video must have taken a siginificant chunk of time. The least we can do is pray for him.

Get involved

You know, getting involved is easy. If you are a Muslim, reupload videos onto YT, blog about the exchanges (like we are doing here), be proactive and generally do whatever you can (no matter how little it is) to promote the Truth.

Personally, I look forward to blogging about the shows - inshaAllah - I will do my bit.

Invite people to Islam - even if they do not accept initially, you have planted a seed in the back of their mind which will remain with them.

A thought for the sincere Christians...

I interact with a ton of Christians on the net. Sadly, the insincere and disingenuous types get more attention but there are a ton of friendly and genuine Christians on the net who do not follow the modus operandi of folk such as Sam and Dave (or other fundamentalists at ABN - yes, I'm taking about you Pastor "I don't want Muslim bus drivers" Joseph amongst others).

Sadly, Muslim critique and rebukes of the disingenuous Christian "missionaries" gains the headlines whilst fine Christian-Muslim dialogue goes relatively unnoticed. Google "Shabir Ally" and you will be subjected to a shed-load of positive Muslim-Christian interaction.

Invitation to Islam

If you are a Christian, please go to your local mosque and ask the Muslim leaders questions - learn from them - you have nothing to lose. I assure you, they will not harm you. I hope you will be pleasantly surprised - perhaps you will even make new friends.

Muhammad and Jesus (p)

Christian Missionary Pastor converts to Islam

Bible: Muslims are blessed

Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

A Funny Word on Bassam Zawadi Vs James White + Serious Concerns

Here we go, it seems the latest instalment of Sam Shamoun Sunday is a little light-hearted. It appears our Sam was firing off frantic advice/arguments/responses (whatever the case may be) to James White DURING his debate with Br. Bassam Zawadi.

I’m not kidding you. It looks like our Sam was attempting to debate via proxy. I guess he was not so confident in White’s ability/performance thus decided to email. [For the dishonest man who has a history of misconstruing my words in order to deflect away from his dishonest episodes – I am suggesting this appears to be the case – imo]

As you know, I’m not Dave Wood so I don’t’ make stuff up – I have the audio for you to decide… (There is a bonus clip where Shamoun shows his inability to discern correctly)

Learning from the dishonest and unscholarly?




That's our Sam

Quite what Sam Shamoun hopes to add to the debate is beyond me. This man is uneducated and dishonest to an extreme. This bloke peddles lies such as sex hoaxes, claims of bestiality, cross-dressing and other products of his debauched mind. (See the Sam Shamoun section)

Sam Shamoun’s latest outrageous blunder: We had to educate him in Hebrew and Arabic so he would desist from spreading offensively absurd lies which were blasphemies according to Arab CHRISTIANS!

When he is not spreading lies, this is the extent of the man’s argumentation.

No self respecting truth-seeker would “learn” from him.

We have a maxim which essentially goes; be wary of whom you learn from [1]. It is so potent with regards to some of the unqualified and uneducated folk on the internet. Judging by Shamoun’s limited vocabulary, lack of sound decorum, utter inability to reason rationally and think critically I posit the idea he has never been to university or received any formal instruction in matters pertaining to faith. I bet I’m correct.

James White never learns

Now, James did not have time to assess the stuff our Sam was emailing over to London during the break but the fact James bothers with this man’s emails in the midst of a debate suggests James could possibly have received “instruction” from our Sam prior to the debate.

Now we know what happened last time James was reliant on Sam Shamoun – Sam Shamoun made him look like a dishonest and unscholarly amateur. I proceeded to correct this man’s bout of jahaliya (ignorance) and his pride overwhelmed him. Thus, White claimed he and Sam were correct despite all the dictionaries, translators and experts telling him he was wrong. Here is a summary of the sad episode.

You’d have thought he would have dumped Shamoun, he clearly has not. Some people never learn. As Sheikh Qaradawi stated, there are two types of ignorant folk; those who are ignorant and know it and those who have a compound ignorance (they think they have knowledge when in reality, they know next to nothing).

White falls into the category of compound ignorance, this man is even writing a book about Islam. Last I checked on the bloke, he was asking people to buy him the books so he could write his book. I’m not kidding, see here.

Does the Quran misrepresent Christianity?

I have not viewed the debate yet but I do plan to review it some time this calendar year (I hope to review all Br. Bassam Zawadi’s debates this year as well as some imam Shabir Ally and Yusuf Ismail material, Insha’Allah it will be beneficial for the online brothers and sisters).

The problem James White would encounter is that it would be impossible for him to make a positive claim stick as the immediate Christian audience are thought to have different (“heretical”) beliefs.

I mean, does White’s denomination believe in a Prophet who was imminent in Medina in the 7th century? According to Salman al Farsi this was the belief of his last Christian guide [2]. Bahira the monk seems to have been on a similar pattern of belief [3]. The same belief structure could be attributed to Waraqa Bin Naufal who recognises the incident in the cave as the visitation of Al Namus Al Akbar [4].

The "Christianity" Prophet Muhammad (p) encountered would have differed from the way we consider Christianity today. This is essentially what the orientalists Foster and Margoliouth believed, the latter compares such "Christians" to heathens!

Foster, erroneously believing the Prophet received instruction from the surrounding Christians “suggests the type of Christian ideas Muhammad received were from the Gnostics”. [5]

"Margoliouth shares similar view, that the Christians in those days were not that committed and in many cases not very different from the heathen” [5]

So you can see White’s difficulty in putting forward a positive case based upon his view of Christianity.

So White had an impossible task as consistency, accuracy and fair scholarship would all have gone out of the window if he genuinely tried to make his argumentation stick. If he just rattled off drivel from Sam Shamoun’s website then that would have been anti-scholarship. I'm pretty confident Br. Bassam Zawadi would have come across in a more positive light than his Christian counterpart.

However, TGV did state it was an interesting debate.

There is an insightful paper on the subject of Christians in the Quran and the Sunna by the scholar Ahmad Von Denffer (published by the Islamic foundation).

Facts for the Honest Not for the Dishonest

Just for the dishonest and disingenuous (Radical Moderate and co.) who tried to pass off the insults to Mormon and Russian women as no big deal…

Well, it appears CHRISTIANS are calling it an act of misogyny and they are up in arms at James White’s (and Rich Pierce’s) offensive remarks – including a female supporter of aomin – tell them it’s no big deal!

Kudos to the sincere Christian, minoria, who immediately denounced the comments as “sinful”.
PS, our rebuke made mention of Sam Shamoun who (despite there being no pictures of the wives of Prophet Muhammad, p) insults these saintly women in a similar vain – in fact worse.

Why is it left to the Muslims to clean up Christian ministries? It speaks volumes in telling us who is actually on the truth.

Let's talk Nabeel and Dave

Talking about cleaning up the ministries, let’s talk Nabeel Qureshi and David Wood. Just in case you missed their more recent episodes of outrage.

Here is Nabeel Qureshi presenting a lie within a church setting – a lie which will knock the informed and truthful off their feet, a lie which comes with its own health warning - Nabeel, made his OWN hadith up:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-nabeel-qureshis-whopper-of-lie.html

Nabeel’s dishonesty is geared towards converting people but Dave Wood’s deception is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Dave looks to dehumanize Muslims. We caught this dishonest man claiming the Quran instructs Muslims to kill, torture, crucify Christians who fix church roofs or wear crosses. I’m not kidding you, he really peddles such fabrication as fact:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/02/more-islamophobic-lies-from-christian.html

Last I checked on these two chaps, they were planning a "conference" on Islam. The blind leading the blind! What were we saying about ignorance?

Anti-Calvinists Attack James White rather than rethink their belief in the Holy Spirit

It appears our latest video featuring James White’s exegesis of 2 Corinthians 4:4 has left Christian folk red faced and has subsequently led them to bash White and Calvinism. Why? Why denounce your co-religionist when the underpinning problem is the Christian belief in the Holy Spirit. This was quite evident in the video. Sadly, some folk have a desire to deflect attention from the problematic nature of their belief in the Holy Spirit rather than rethinking it.

Here is our video and here is the Christian attacking James White (with a clip from our video – Jordan Day’s initially)!!!

James White claiming he knows Arabic

CHRISTIANS (see comment section here) are claiming James White has claimed to know Arabic on his Face Book - they are suspecting him of dishonesty.

White does not know Arabic. IF these Christians are correct then White is not being straight forward. I ask him to correct such information. I don’t want to waste time looking into it…

UPDATE: We have investigated this - HE has claimed to know Arabic:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2011/02/why-did-james-white-claim-to-know.html
Recently I corrected Sam Shamoun in Hebrew – I would never claim to know Hebrew. Even if you know how to read a language it does not mean you know the language.

More dishonesty from Christian apologists

I have just found material from Kent Hovind – he was presenting some absurd Chick Publication lies about Islam. Considering the deceptive episodes above and old Kent Hovind, we need to push lay Christians into holding their “representatives” to greater account.

At this ministry we investigate Christian outreaches to Muslims; thus far, every single outreach we have investigated has failed. The criteria we generally use are that of accuracy, honesty, consistency and the ability to act with a modicum of decorum.

Again, christian apologetics is shown to be lacking in a genuine desire for accuracy and meaningful interaction as well as moral probity.

Sadly all have failed.

Ergun Caner to debate a Muslim?

He seems to be getting himself together. Perhaps, those who debate, amongst the students of knowledge/scholars (especially those in North america), would like to issue a challenge his way. It does get boring listening to the same school of Christian debaters. I advance the notion; folks at Liberty University have greater followings than the Christian camp Muslim debaters are currently plundering opponents from. Just a thought…go on, put the cat amongst the pigeons, you know you want to!

Get on the blower to SBC's Peter Lumpkins and get it arranged, pronto!   :)

May Allah send his peace and blessing upon the last Messenger of Allah. May Allah reward all those involved in dawah and guide us all. Ameen.

Invitation to Islam

Would you like a relationship with your Creator? Would you like to worship the God of Jesus – the same God Jesus worshipped? Would you like to become a brother/sister of Jesus? If yes, come to Islam.

Bible: Muslims are blessed

Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

[1] Thus knowledge constitutes your deen (religion), so be wary of whom you take your religion from – Ibn Sirin [Ibn Hibban credited this statement to other scholars too]

[2] Men and women Around the Messenger, Sa’d Yusuf Abu Aziz, Darussalam, 2009, p292

[3] The encounter with Bahira is mentioned in Ibn Hisham’s Sira rasul Allah and Ibn Sa’d’s Tabaqat.

[4] Ibn Sa’d, Vol 1 pp225

[5] Image of the Prophet Muhammad in the West, Jabal Muhammad Buaben, The Islamic Foundation, 1996. p77 [For those who study works of the orientalists, you will find this work to be very useful in indentifying themes adopted by Muir, Margoliouth, and Watt]

Re: Refuting three common Muslim misconceptions about Christianity

A Christian blogger (Hogan Elijah Hagbard) has produced a response to three “common” misconceptions amongst Muslims regarding Christianity.

1. Did the Apostles believe Jesus to be insane?

The Christian blogger writes:

The first relates to the personality of Jesus Christ. In the Gospel of Mark, chapter 3, verse 21:


'When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind"'


Some Muslims apologists have mistakenly been swayed toward the opinion, that Mark depicts Jesus as a mad personality

Muslim Response: I cannot recall any Muslim making such an argument so the appendage of “common misconceptions” is not entirely accurate as I’d imagine most Muslims have never heard of this argument - never mind espousing it!

I agree, Jesus (p) was NOT mad and nor was the unknown writer (named Mark) depicting Jesus as “insane”. HOWEVER it must be slightly worrying for the Christians to see those closest to Jesus (p) considering him to be out of his mind – especially considering our Christian friends believe Jesus (p) to be God incarnate!

Bible-believing Christians have some explaining to do – did Jesus’ family not consider him to be God? It certainly appears to be the case here which further strengthens the argument of Jesus (p) being developed into a “god-man” AFTER his departure from this world.

Of course, our Christian friend may claim Jesus had not told them he was "God" at that time. This leads to the question of why would God not tell people he is God and allow them to believe he is insane? You can see the problematic nature of this passage...

Muslims have the best approach to the Gospels and Jesus– Jesus is a Prophet and the Gospels are unreliable thus cannot be taken as “gospel” – pardon the pun – this saves the Muslim from the potentially faith-shattering difficulties our Christian friends have to contend with.

The Christian” explains” the problematic reference in a fashion which adds to the confusion:

Hence the 'He is out of his mind' utterence was not a specific reaction to Jesus as a person, but rather it records a blaze reference, to an occasion in which he set aside his physical need to minister to the people.

2. Did Jesus portray Christianity as a violent religion?

Our Christian blogger writes:

A second claim relates to the judgement of the nations; when Jesus in his second coming brings judgement upon his enemies.
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them her and kill them in front of me (Luke 19: 27).


Muslim apologists have ignorantly purported the passage to portray a violent Christianity

Muslim Response: Now, I have seen this claim banded about and it can certainly be described as “common”. Previously, I have seen the Christian explanation of it referring to a parable rather than it being an instruction:

The passage belongs to the parable of the 'Ten Minas', and does not reveal direct description of an event

I think the Christian explanation should be factored into account by Muslim apologists. However, there are other passages in the Gospel of Luke which are used to support war – by the theologian John MacArthur:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/12/john-macarthur-jesus-supports-war.html

3. Did Paul the Apostle encourage deception?

The Christian writes:

A third misconception is rooted in the Muslim failure to understand a Pauline saying in Philippians 1: 17-18:


'The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing they can stir up trouble for me, while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.'

Muslims Response: This is an argument which I have seen presented by Muslims countless times. I run a ministry on YouTube as well as on Blogger which helps call Christians to honesty (with regards to Islam) by show-casing their deceptive episodes – you can imagine folk sending me such a Biblical reference and appending words to the effect of "Christians are taught this by Paul".

I am glad to see our Christian writer does not take this verse as an instruction to deception:

Paul refers to certain individuals who preach the Gospel from a wrong motive; he is not describing deception or lies

However, he must understand how Muslims feel when we see characters such as Ergun Caner, Robert Morey, Walid Shoebat all utilizing clear deception despite holding credibility amongst Christian communities.

Moreover, here are some Christian deceptions our Christian blogger may be familiar with, see here and here.

What excuse do these folk, along with Ergun Caner et al have? They all claim to have the Holy Spirit within them whilst claiming to be furthering the Gospel…

In addition to these relatively recent liars within Christian evangelist communities we could point our Christian blogger to his evangelical predecessors whose lies about Islam were wide spread:

As Norman Daniel tell [sic] us in his work Islam and the West: “The use of false evidence to attack Islam was all but universal…” (p. 267)” [From An Authoritative Exposition – part 1, by ‘Abdur-Raheem Green]

Christian missionaries: A dishonest past

I’m sure he can understand how and why this “misconception” is prevalent in Muslim communities. I hope he works with us to help nudge Christian ministries into the realm of honesty.

Learn more about Islam

The incarnation, do you believe in it?

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What Every Christian Needs to Know about the Qur'an – by James White

It seems as though it is silly season all over again

Dr James White is planning to write a book on Islam and he has already got the title in mind. Given White’s history of blunder and dishonesty with regards to Islam, can we really expect something other than a blunder-filled missionary tome?

A Scholarly Book on ISLAM by Dr James White?

As one commentator asked, can we really trust James White to give a truthful book about Islam? His answer said it all – “never in a million years”.

Now, folk who are unfamiliar with James White will be thinking why in the world is he so untrustworthy. Well, White has a history of blundering about Islam. Once called out for such blunders he either (dishonestly) maintains he is correct or remains silent and never corrects the blunder. Yep, White KNOWINGLY leaves his readers/viewers misinformed. How difficult is it to edit a video or an online article and correct it? Not difficult at all for those who have a regard for accuracy – White is lacking in this regard!

Dr James White has NOT READ the books he requires!!!

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. Our James has NOT EVEN READ the books he plans to use for the writing of his book. Does that make sense? He has planned the title and the objectives, but has not read the books he will use. Odd.

You may be thinking "how do you know he has not read the books"? Well, he has not even purchased the books. In fact, he is asking people off the internet to purchase them for him!

Are you jerking our chain?

I’m serious. He wants YOU to buy him the books he will use to help write his book. Perhaps he will share the profits with us!

James White under the heading “Here's How You Can Help” writes “Human nature being what it is, there is a downside to my going into "book mode." It's pretty simple: we are a small ministry. We do not have fund raisers….”

“…. I use the Ministry Resource List to obtain the materials I need for these projects, and I have put a number of such resources on that list just recently, one of which is mighty expensive, but it would be incredibly helpful”

I popped over to his ministry resource list. There are six books he is wanting (I believe at least five are for this book). I have presented a screenshot and I have noticed one of them is yet to be released.

Profit sharing? Standard procedure? I don’t know!

He has decided the title and aims of the book without having read the relevant Islamic material. Is this standard procedure? I don’t know - it seems odd.

Is White simply going to quote mine from these books or is he actually going to read and understand them? If he actually studies them then surely it will be extremely difficult for him to write TWO books (one is unrelated to Islam) and READ and DIGEST all six books he wants us to purchase for him within a year (whilst travelling to London and Ireland as well as maintaining the podcasts). What type of standard of work are we expecting here? A concoction of internet polemics and quotes mined from books he has not digested? I don’t know.

Moreover if we purchase him these books will he share the profits and what will he do with the books after their use? I don’t know. [See the comment section for the full quote and decide for yourselves]

Dishonesty and inconsistency – history of James White

James White used a fabrication (from a CHRISTIAN missionary hit piece) and attributed the source to a MUSLIM scholarly work. Furthermore, James White has never acknowledged where he got the fabrication from – nor has he acknowledged the erroneous nature of the fabrication he used. How difficult is it to admit he (unknowingly) used a fabrication thinking it was a legitimate source? Not difficult at all to those who value intellectual honesty and accuracy.

I have personally rebuked him from this very blog. I rebuked him for using a “made up” translation of a Quranic Verse – YES, he decided against using a recognised translation from the NUMEROUS out there and used one made up by his pal (a chap who makes his own up to convince people Islam allows BESTIALITY!!!) - Just made up and totally fallacious!

Once called out for this our James White, to his audience, maintained he was correct by linking to the MADE UP (and proven wrong) translation by his pal. Dishonest, inconsistent and sad – how difficult would it have been to have a regard for accuracy and admitting the blunder and abjuring oneself? Not difficult at all. Note White has STILL NOT bothered correcting himself:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/09/muslims-rebuke-dr-james-white.html

Furthermore, White was rebuked to linking to an article which carried ANOTHER made up translation – White labelled this as “excellent Quranic insights”. This highlights his utter lack of regard for truth and consistency. He has STILL NOT BOTHERED to correct the error:

Being mindful this is turning out to be a lengthier post than I would like I will try to truncate it and allow you, the reader, to research White’s blunders and dishonest episodes for yourselves.

Did James White lie in the Greg Stafford debate – he is accused of such

Did James White use deception in the Robert Price debate – he is accused of such

White maintains more disrespectful and misleading material - knowingly

Dr White ...Insufficient and unfounded arguments

NOTE: the reason why White has never acknowledged (nor corrected) the above blunders are due to his pride and his desire to appear reliable and learned regarding Islam. Sadly, many Christian evangelists want to present themselves as learned in Islam despite being incompetent in such a subject. Just look at the sad example of the now shamed Ergun Caner.

In my opinion, James White appears to be angling for a teaching job vis-à-vis Islam in Christian apologetics classes. White is terribly blunder-prone and intellectually dishonest. These classes would be better served by bringing in folk who have a regard for consistency, accuracy and integrity.

Unchristian behaviour plus dishonest and unruly friends/colleagues

Firstly, let’s start with James White. White and his colleague have been caught on RADIO insulting Russian and Mormon (Brigham Young’s wives) women based on appearance. They have even gained years of “entertainment” in doing so. White has never apologized for this outrageous bout of audio:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/12/james-white-lewd-ridicule-of-mormon-and.html

Sam Shamoun – this is James’ teacher and close friend. Sam Shamoun is the most shamed of Christian apologists – even more so than Ergun Caner. Sam Shamoun, in 2008 presented the thighing hoax as fact despite it being made up by Arab Christians on the net – perhaps these were Sam’s colleagues and/or friends. We don’t know as Sam Shamoun has gone all silent on us

Moreover, Sam has put James in hot water as James has been borrowing from Sam. Sadly, this borrowing meant James wound up using MADE UP AND ERRONEOUS Quranic translations – White was absolutely oblivious to it, which just further impugns White’s scholarship. Shamoun presents low level lies such as “Islam allows sex with animal”. The moral of the story – choose HONEST friends.

NOTE: James White has been invited to rebuke and disassociate himself from Sam Shamoun’s unruly and uncouth behaviour. White declined. I guess that’s integrity and consistency for you. White rebukes the easy target (Ergun Caner) but the one closer to home get’s away with insult and lies.

White seems to be covering and protecting Shamoun. I guess it is a close relationship. Perhaps Shamoun is helping with the book - What Every Christian Needs to Know about the Qur'an – by James White

Here is Sam Shamoun abusing Muslims and Islam:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/11/sam-shamoun-obsessed-with-shabir-ally.html

Walid Shoebat – James White has gone on record denouncing old Walid [since this article White has gone on record to state he has never communicated with Shoebat and has even declined to appear on the same show as Shoebat and Kamal Saleem. In the conventional sense White is not colleagues with Shoebat or Saleem - he simple appears on the same missionary TV show as them. Perhaps he should let the director, Bassim Gorial, know as to their deceptive ways or stop appearing on the show altogether - it would do wonders for his credibility].
David Wood – Aside from claiming he was arrested because of “Sharia” and other dishonest outrages he has presented a sex hoax whilst claiming it to be a fact, this is the SAME hoax his friend Shamoun presented two years earlier. How sad.

Kamal Saleem – [as per Shoebat, see above] This one makes up his own Ahadith literature. Yes, he fabricates hadith amongst other lies and blunders.

Nabeel Qureshi – he knowingly uses fallacious translations of Ahadith literature. He has STILL not come clean and corrected himself. A sad indictment of James White’s inability is White’s featuring of Nabeel Qureshi’s dishonest work – White is STILL featuring such misleading work!

Pastor Joseph – this is James White’s friend and colleague on ABN. He presents lies such as Islam allows homosexuality amongst other outrages.

The old adage “A man is on the path of his friend” is quite telling and impugning.

Conclusion

James White is out of his league. The only relationship he should be having with a book concerning Islamic matters is that of a reader not as a writer. Sadly, the hunt for kudos and a few extra dollars is quite a self-deluding tool.

Our advice to James is to clean up his act and spend time studying, correcting his previous blunders and double checking his previous work - even Catholics (Catholicism is an area James knows much better than Islam) are calling him out on past inconsistencies and blunders. Time better served, James.

Senior Muslim scholars are wary of TV shows which put scholars in a position to give edicts via phone-in shows. The reason behind the warning is to guard against error. Contrast this prudency with James White’s recklessness - he is writing a book despite being unqualified and error-prone.

We shall not recommend his book to anyone. Obviously, some Muslim apologists may purchase it in order to sift for errors but those who are interested in learning should be mindful where you take your education from. Here is a suggestion to his followers, rather than relying on the unreliable why not sift through material yourself and do your OWN research. Just a suggestion…

Thus knowledge constitutes your deen (religion), so be wary of whom you take your religion from – Ibn Sirin [Ibn Hibban credited this statement to other scholars too]

PS If you have any errors or bouts of dishonesty you would like to highlight related to James White you can always leave a comment or drop an email.

Feedback: yahyasnow@hotmail.com

Christians who Support Dr James White…

Could you folk help stimulate James White into answering a charge of dishonesty arising from his debate with Greg Stafford? Jordan (TheReligionFreeDeist) has graciously broken the charge down so the lay can follow. I genuinely believe James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries should invest some time into helping us clear this one up. Does White have a defence?

The Background

In his review of the White-Price debate, Jordan made a claim of White lying in the Greg Stafford debate. We did ask him to explain such and he has kindly gone to the length of explaining it via YouTube video (see below)

Obviously, courtesy (as well as the nature of the complaint – dishonesty) dictates White should respond in some capacity. We look forward to White’s explanation.In the process we would like White to apologize for this debacle, rather than sweeping it under the rug whilst misinforming his audience concerning the Quran:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/09/muslims-rebuke-dr-james-white.html

Video entitled: Dr. White DID lie in Stafford debate



Video description: Exposing a little debating tactic used by apologist. The apologist will attempt to append a "factual" statement (that is occasionally false) to the end of his cross-examination question, in an attempt to cause his opponent to fumble or second-guess himself, by shooting down the expected response before he can even begin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

White’ shoddy misinformation in the Robert Price debate

I have listened to most of this debate and White has blundered again concerning Ahadith literature. The man is clearly not studying in a concerted fashion; as a result he is misinforming people about Islamic matters. God willing this will be subject to a future blog post. Why ill-informed Christians readily present themselves as learned in Islamic matters is beyond me.

For those who are further interested - I have appended Jordan’s written explanation to the White-Stafford issue in the comment section

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Dishonesty in Robert Price Vs James White Debate?

Ex Fundamentalist Christian Reviews the Debate

An entertaining review, it contains an allegation of dishonesty (discussed further below)



Was James White dishonest?

I don’t believe White can be accused of outright dishonesty. I guess it was a misdirection which will be passed off as a “debate tactic” no doubt. However, it is intellectually dishonest as it dismisses Price’s thesis in a sneaky fashion WITHOUT interacting with his argumentation. White, if he wants to indulge in serious scholarship should try and interact with the INTERNAL arguments Price has put forward to prop his claim. Just a suggestion…

Obvious! But WLC has responded..

Did Price base his article upon internal factors? Yes, he eve mentions he does not have manuscript evidence to support his thesis. . It is of interest to apologetics to note William Lane Craig has interacted on the issue – Dr Craig did not resort to such misdirection – as far as I am aware.

White: A history of debate blunder

If the reviewer was so annoyed at White’s little misdirection he can certainly empathise with Muslims who were aggrieved with James White’s two-fold shoddy scholarship. In a debate with Shabir Ally, White cites a non-existent “narration”. Still to this day I have not seen White give an explanation as to where this “narration” came from though some Muslims have found it came from a dubious Christian missionary tome. Yep, those missionaries do make stuff up – just have a look at pg 193 from Dr Robert Morey’s Islamic Invasion

The second is extremely worrying, in a debate with Sheikh Awal, White presented a claim of “Allah repenting in the Quran”. This was nonsense and he was soon denounced for such a nonsensical claim and even accused of LYING. It turned out; in his defence he cited a shoddy missionary website run by his friend as support!

Sadly, White to this day maintains he is correct and ALL the translators of the Quran are incorrect (his pal’s translation has also been shown to be grammatically incorrect in itself). By the way, his friend is notorious for amking up translations - he was caught making one such up whilst trying to convince his fellow "Bible believing" Christians that Islam "allows sec with animals!

Folks this is not scholarship; this is school boy stuff. This is a reason why debates should never be your primary station of learning. I feel sorry for the “Bible believing” Christians who swallow such fundamentalist fudging.

See here for more information with regards to the blunders:
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/09/muslims-rebuke-dr-james-white.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT_yGgPYuZA

Did James White “lie” in the Greg Stafford debate?

The reviewer makes such a claim. I have contacted him to explain such a statement. Of course we cannot accuse White of lying based on the reviewer’s say so. Perhaps those of his followers could help stimulate him into clarification…

Debates and buying/selling debates

A whole host of debate tactics (including dishonesty) and telescoping (due to time restraints) can result in serious truth seekers being misled.

James White is a career debater/apologist, thus he seems to be debating every fortnight and putting such up for sale on his site. Muslims should not be buying such material unless they are involved in serious apologetics – that means having GROUNDING in Islam first.

In my view Muslim “debaters” should NOT imitate White. How many times can one debate the same topic? Ultimately you end up making a mockery out of faith – nowadays debates are entertainment and the lay are drawn by the clash of individuals rather than the debate topic.

Debate topics, White and the rest

The reviewer accuses White of having a propensity to veer off topic in debates. Surely it is disrespectful to the audience to do so especially if they have spent some cash in purchasing the debate. I am on the cheap side so…

To be fair many debaters do the same.

Cash for ministries

The reviewer touches upon giving cash to James.

OK, I understand White seeking financial assistance but the “Christian” rabble rousers who cling onto him have no business asking for cash. Why it is “Christian” apologists on the internet think they have a God given right for finances from the “Christian” lay. I have never understood that – especially so with the “Christian” outreaches to Muslims which are full of lie, hoax and outrage. Come on, how those in White’s crew can seriously expect payment for such hate-filled nonsense as “Islam allows sex with animals”.

Really, is this “scholarship” worthy of “financial assistance”? Here is one presenting his “research” to his donors:

Christians, please think CRITICALLY

As Robert Price teaches do your OWN critical reading and don’t rely on what this person or that person is saying. Also, watch out for the misleading half-truths and blatant lies “Christian” apologists present to you. Apart from the in-your-face- type lies we expose on this blog the Christian apologist claim of having x number of manuscripts as though this somehow confirms the reliability of the document is beyond reprehensible. It, amongst other things, militates against the “God breathed” claim our Christian friends append to the Bible.

Prior to Tischendorf’s 1859 find the “Bible believing” Christians would have felt secure in reading the last chunk in Mark 16, enough said. Christians, think critically.

A quick thought on the appearance to the “more than 500”

You would imagine there to be numerous individual accounts recording such an appearance? Surely they would have told their respective stories INDIVIDUALLY and recordings made. After all, it would be deemed something to write home about, right?

Notes of interest from Robert Price’s theorizing

Walker’s (conspiracy) theory of standardization of the Pauline corpus to meet the then orthodox views is all very interesting but does away with any idea of a pre-third century manuscript existing – thus there will NEVER be MS evidence substantiating interpolation within any epistle. It puts White’s misdirection into shame – one can further understand the reviewer’s grievance!

All Price has to work with; “aporias, contradictions, stylistic irregularities, anachronisms, redactional seams”. The notion that Paul could have been a Gnostic is useful interest – perhaps further exploration is required here.

Robert Price begins talking our language with “uncertainty”. He has a point, why close off the options at two (authentic/inauthentic) – there is room for Price’s third!

Price’s big one

This, in my view is Price’s biggy, concerning 15:3: “"received / delivered" (paralambanein / paradidonai) is, as has often been pointed out, technical language for the handing on of rabbinical tradition” and THUS this contradicts 1 Galatians 1:11-12 (Paul is claiming he was not taught it and nor did he receive it from any man).

E.L. Allen cites the obvious problem; that is of the story of the (more than) 500 not being registered in the gospel narratives? Internal suspicions are cranked up further.

The appearance to James the Just (1 Corinthians 15:7) is deemed problematic. “John (7:5) and Mark (3:21, 31-35), followed by Matthew (12:46-50), are clear that he was no friend of the ministry of Jesus”. The issue here is if James was an unbeliever then surely a conversion narrative would have been appended. To be fair Luke (Luke 8:19-21; Acts 1:14), does imply the whole family were believers.

I find it interesting Wisse seems to be warning against Price-type theorizing and citing the stability of scholarship as a reason to shun it. Interesting.

“I believe the prima facie likelihood is that many interpolations occurred in those early days”

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html

Invitation to Islam

Do you know Muslims believe in Jesus as a Prophet? Muslims also believe the Bible has been changed. Learn Islam for yourself rather than relying on some fundamentalist “Christian” bigot to teach you a load of hate-filled twaddle about Islam. Good site to get your feet wet:
http://www.ediscoverislam.com/

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Muslim Reviews "Jesus or Muhammad" (ABN Sat Show)

Nonsensical Title

Muslims believe in BOTH Jesus and Muhammad so the title of the show puts the Muslim off straight away.

The “Anal Sex Claimer” RETURNS!!

Wow, just plain wow. I have seen the most recent flier for the “Jesus or Muhammad” marathon and guess who is listed – none other than the “anal sex claimer” himself – I.Q Al Rasooli!!!

IQ al Rasooli is infamous for his anal sex claim on You Tube. Well, it gets worse because this “Christian” missionary even has the audacity to claim he has studied Islam for “THIRTY YEARS” whilst introducing himself on ABNSat to Samar Gorial and the viewers. I guess “THIRTY YEARS” of study meant he never opened up page 327 in Bulugh al Maram. Wow, just plain wow!

Sounds more like a freak show, it really does!

The “anal sex claimer” (IQ al Rasooli), sick sex-hoax-purveyor extraordinaire (David Wood), the bestiality bloke (Sam “Islam allows sex with animals” Shamoun) and Usama “all Muslims are demons” Dakdok. Crikey! Are you sure it is not Halloween?

Come on ABN! How about you move away from attention seekers/charlatans off the net and bring us somebody with academic clout. Can you not bring in Dr Habermas or Norman Geisler? Even the shamed Ergun Caner would be more authoritative than the current brigade.

You are a TV STATION not a YouTube outfit!!!

No job too dirty

The problem with ABN is that they want to link EVERY event in Muslim current affairs with Islam. No scholar will oblige so the rent-a-mob they currently employ are utilized as no job is too dirty for the likes of IQ, Wood and Shamoun.

Einstein?

We KNOW there are some terrorists within Muslim countries who DO murder Christian minorities BUT it doesn’t take Einstein to figure out sending David Wood’s sex hoax into Egypt via Satellite TV is hardly helpful in combating these misguided Muslims. You don’t need IQ Al Rasooli’s “THIRTY YEARS” of study to figure that out!

Our scholars HAVE been warning against this puritanical element (terrorists); the LAST thing we need is a bunch of crazy “Christians” from the net sending absurdly offensive lies their way. Don’t allow your hatred for Muslims cloud your common sense.

Anjem Choudary as a “Sheikh”?

Crikey, yes I’m not pulling your leg; they consider Anjem Choudary as a representative of Islam; he is even called “sheikh” whilst on ABN. Wow, just plain wow!

The man would be trounced by scholars the world over.

Of course, our buddies on the Jesus or Muhammad show don’t refer to figures such as the Shaikh Zayed Lecturer in Islamic Studies at Cambridge University (Abdul Hakim Murad).…they go to the three amigos (Wood, Shamoun and AlRasooli). True scholarship!

Expect more shrieks of “sex with a nine year old” and “he had more than one wife”

Do me a favour. I am due to unveil a review of the scholarly effort of critique by Dr JM Buaben and these internet polemics would not have been considered as academic by any of those whom he critiqued. An acid test on how much a missionary knows about Islam; if he argues using internet claims then you know he knows next to nothing. Now, that speaks volumes against the ABN crew.

In fact, we have already denounced ABN’s sex hoaxer extraordinaire on similar internet claims here

Home Alone and Islamophobic oddballs
I recall a scene from Home Alone Two; the foster father of McCauley McCulkin’s character asks the hotel manager what type of fools do you employ? He says, "The finest in New York"! Well, it goes something like that.

What type of anti-Muslim oddballs have ABN Sat got in their employ? The finest off the internet! We KNOW one of their “finest” has spent time in a mental institute for attempted murder. I always hear the bells of irony when this chap bangs on about Muslim violence. Wow, just plain wow!

A redundant Anti-Muslim mafia?

Crikey, come on ABN!!! Seriously, you can be much more academic by bringing in true scholarship and not the internet anti-Muslim mafia. Is it so daunting to even attempt to bring in a genuine intellect on the subject? Or is it a case of a true scholar being unwilling to hum to your anti-Muslim tune? Really?

But we have Dr James R White…

I grant you, James White does know something about his OWN religion that is why you do NOT see Dr White going all cowboy with claims of paedophilia, polygamy, war etc (basically all the contents of David Wood’s bag of tricks, heckles and gags (Kudos to TGV for that quip)).

However, Dr James White knows little about Islam (he knows less than IQ al Rasooli and that’s being honest). We have rebuked White’s errors previously and have further rebukes in the pipeline.

Editing the Bible (Von Tischendorf or “Christian”)

You may be thinking he’s going to bang on about Von Tischendorf’s 1859 find? No. I’m going to bang on about somebody less cerebral; Christian Prince. When this show first came to air ABN had a regular caller (“Christian”); this bloke, when he is not spreading lies about Islam (or partaking in lecherous talk or calling for the NUKING of Pakistan) he is changing the BIBLE for cash, converts and non-Arab speaking approbation. Don’t believe me? See here.

Talking about changing the Bible our Sam Shamoun does bizarre eisegesis but Walid Shoebat takes the biscuit. There is no fabricating like that of the ex terrorist!!!

Walid Shoebat – the coup

I admit having Walid Shoebat on the show is quite the coup. A real big name. I guess he is the Fernando Torres (or for the Americans; Shaquille O Neil) of ABN. That’s where the comparison stops. Dr Dan Wallace and ABN’s James White have already denounced Walid Shoebat’s misuse of the Bible. Do we have dissension in the ABN camp? I don’t know and don’t care but I will like you to view the Walid Shoebat “Mark of the Beast” hoax which we have in video form (with easy to follow commentary, from yours truly). Wow, just plain wow, see here.

Christian TV shows: a dime a dozen

Just in case you are wondering as to what came of our pal, Christian Prince (“Christian”); no, he’s not at the funny farm but I can to tell you the sobering news of him running his OWN Christian missionary TV show now. I guess they are handing out Christian TV shows like raffle tickets. First Sam Shamoun, then IQ al Rasooli and now ChristianPrince. Wow, just plain wow!

Kamal Saleem: “For those who are taking notes”

Another coup for ABN. A big name. But come on! This man has TWO versions of his conversion story knocking about. Furthermore, people doubt his ex terrorist charade. However, more importantly in terms of apologetics; he FABRICATES ahadith. What, you don’t believe me? See here. And who can forget his conversion figure propaganda. Propaganda for which he has NEVER answered for. Wow, just plain wow!

Taking the ignorant for a ride

OK, I admit, the sensationalism, hoaxes and internet slur laden arguments may sway the ignorant BUT when these people scratch the surface they will know they have been taken for a ride.

In the UK, we have a saying; fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Positives…

OK, Yahya it’s a review and you have just presented negativity, do you have anything positive to say? Right, in my limited exchange with one of their presenters I have realised they are not all the unreasonable “Christian” fundamentalists one initially suspects them to be. Dr Bassam Gorial and his wife seem to be sincere and even Usama Dakdok dropped me a polite response email. Oh that reminds me, excuse me for the segway..

Osama Kamal Dakdok, a list of names please…

I am still waiting for you to let me know who are all these anonymous (ex Muslim) professors and doctors who helped on the translation. Apparently Usama Dakdok had EX-MUSLIM experts who TAUGHT at AL-AZHER helping him translate the Quran. I have NEVER come across exMuslim teachers from Al-Azher. Sounds fishy. A list of names would help us put this one to bed, Usama…

The flier

The flier says November the 26th. Yep that's when it all kicks off. I hope everybody is wearing their best suit. Kamal Saleem has no issue in the business attire department (nice suits, tailor made? I assume they are as the fit is impeccable) but our Sam Shamoun could do with some sprucing up.

Sam Shamoun Upstaged?

Such is the variety in Islamophobic oddballs on offer our Sam is simply a sideshow. It’s not often Sam Shamoun is overshadowed but the return of the shamed “anal sex claimer” (IQ al Rasooli) is generating real waves. I have just seen some of the initial reaction from YouTube. Wow, just plain wow! Yes, our IQ has all the star quality to make it to the top of the pile. Sam Shamoun putting his free computer (paid for by Christians donors!) to effect


ABN Potential

Infrastructure-wise they have the capacity to be “better” than they are. Instead they choose a hit squad from the net - this is the frustrating thing. Do they have anything of appeal to me? No, I don’t see scholarly intent. The only reason I comb through it is in order to fish out hoaxes and crazy Islamophobic episodes such as the homosexuality episode.

Banging on about Muslims

They spend most of their time banging on about Islam and Muslims (much of it inaccurately and/or sensationally). This just gets repetitive and boring, for me. Did anybody suggest they should bring in SCHOLARS to talk about CHRISTIANITY? Is their faith so unappealing?

Trashing is NOT evangelism

Since when was evangelism replaced by trashing other faiths? Since the internet! More specifically to ABN since the internet fame-hunting brigade of Shamoun, Wood, and IQ al Rasooli brought their circus act to town. Sad, but true.

Invitation to Islam

Would you like a relationship with God? Would you like to worship the God whom all Prophets worshipped? If yes please come to Islam today. God willing, learn about your new faith here:
http://www.ediscoverislam.com/

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