Thursday, 8 January 2015

Guy calls Ali Ataie 'anti Christ'

Perhaps, the next time a Christian extremist calls you an anti-Christ you could respond in the way Ali Ataie responded to a guy (not sure if Christian) who accused Ali Ataie of being an anti-Christ

Enjoying my Peete's coffee when a man, noticing the Bible and Qur'an on my table, began shouting at me and calling me "anti-Christ." I quickly responded, "But the Elder says that whoever does NOT believe that Jesus is the Christ is an anti-Christ (1 John 2:22). And I believe Jesus is the Christ." He did NOT expect a response from me... his wife had to LITERALLY pull him out of the building. Almost had to flex my blackbelt.... well... after 15 years of not training.

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Anonymous said...

Notice how the antichrist leaves out the second half of the verse which refutes him and proves the old man was right:

1Jn_2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

Yahya Snow said...

Hi Keith

Happy New Year

I think you have a misunderstanding here.

What does denying the Father mean? Who did the Jews refer to when they used the word 'abba'?

The word Father (Abba) is simply a Jewish term for God. It is not to be taken literally, Professor Geza Vermes writes: Jesus prayed there in the solitude, invoking God as ‘Abba’, ‘Father’ or My Father’. The word is given in Aramaic in Mark and in Greek in Matthew and Luke. Abba is a familiar but also respectful expression. It is not the equivalent of ‘Daddy’, as some New Testament scholars have unwisely ventured to propose. [‘Jesus’ Nativity-Passion-Resurrection, Geza Vermes, Penguin books, 2008, p. 208]

So as you can see, denying the Father simply means denying God.

Do Muslims deny God? NO, we as Muslims believe in God and must worship God at least 5 times a day.

The next misunderstanding is about denying the Son.

The Jews used to use the term 'son of God' for pious people. Thus anybody who was following the commands of God would have been described as a 'Son of God' in that particular Jewish circle.

Do Muslims deny the pious Prophet Jesus? No of course not. You cannot be a ?Muslim if you deny Jesus (p).

Here's a link to learn more about the term 'son of God':

Anonymous said...

Yahya, your Koran denies The Father is the Father in any sense. 1 John 2:22 affirms He is a Father. Muslims never refer to the Father as the Father in any sense. Thus, Ali and all of you are antichrists since you deny the Father is the Father. Also, nowhere did I say to take the term "Father" literally. The Christian understandings are both spiritual (i.e., The Father is the Father of His people spiritually, and the Father of Jesus spiritually in regards to eternal generation). See Reymond's Systematic Theology for the biblical support for the latter.

As for your misunderstanding about the Son, again Muslims do not identify Jesus as a Son in any sense. So since you refuse to do so you are condemned by 1 John 2:22. And no, Jesus as Son here does not refer to simply being pious. If we want to know what John meant by Jesus being the Son, we need to start by closely examining John's works. In John 5:18 Jesus' sonship proves He is deity according to this author:

"For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:18, NASB).

Moreover, John 5:23 affirms on account of Jesus' unique sonship He is to be honored in the exact same way the Father is:

Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

To prove this means Jesus is to be worshiped just as the Father should be, educate yourself by reading this essay where I exegete John 5:23

Yahya Snow said...

Hi Keith

Thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote.

I must say it appears we have come to an impasse in this discussion.

If we cannot even agree on terms then there is a foundational problem.

For me, I urge you to look back into how the Jews used such terms of 'Son' and 'Father'.

You clearly do not have a quotation of Jesus defining those terms. I assume you believe Jesus was a Jew, so why not look at the Jewish thoughts on such terms. You will find that son simply refers to somebody who is a pious servant of God, and Father was simply a reference to God.

Again, if you use this scholarly and historical approach then you will see the NT is not teaching Muslims are anti-Christs.

Also, if you think about it, your reading of John 2:22 would leave you believing everybody who is not a Trinitarian Christian is an anti-Christ (including Unitarian Christians).

You have also left me a link to your exegesis of John 5:23. Do Unitarian Christians come to the same conclusion, I don't think so. The point here is, it's you reading something into that verse. Here is the verse again:

that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

If you think about it quote logically, only God can receive worship, right? And only God has authority over all beings and none has authority over God, right?

If you answer yes to both questions, which I assume you would, then that verse is clearly telling you Jesus (p) is not God. Think about it, it's saying God sent Jesus. God is never sent anywhere, right? However, God does send his messengers to places....thus in this verse we are seeing the Islamic and Unitarian Christian belief in that Jesus is not God and is a messenger of God.

I would also advice you to look into the reliability of the Gospel of John. I understand a lot of Trinitarians do use the Gospel of John disproportionately more than any of the other Gospels in attempting to support their Trinitarians understandings.

Here is a short piece on the reliability of the Gospel of John:

Keith, please do look into Islam with an open heart and mind. Pure monotheism is vital. Accurate theology is important.